Mosiah 29:13 holds the key to good government...

[creator]

Mosiah 29:13:

Therefore, if it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if ye could have men for your kings who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people—I say unto you, if this could always be the case then it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you.

What can we learn from this verse?

Good government, righteous government, is that government which will “establish the laws of God, and judge [the] people according to [God's] commandments”.

It doesn't matter so much the system or form of government, be it a monarchy, democracy, republic, etc... the form of government is simply a "TOOL". This verse tells us “it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you”… yes that’s right... Kings. Hence, so many references in our scriptures to God’s “Kingdom”, and the Patriarchal order within that Kingdom, and the promised blessings for the faithful to become Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses. That is God’s order of things.

The problem is not with the idea of a king, or whatever form of government, the problem is us, the natural man, and our tendency to immediately exercise unrighteous dominion when given a little power (see D&C 121). Therefore “because all men are not just it is not expedient that ye should have a king or kings to rule over you.”

And for this reason the Lord has given us today a constitutional republican form of government, with judges and representatives, and so on, similar to the system of judges of the days of Moses and Alma, etc… not because it’s the way Heaven operates, but because it’s the system best suited for men who tend to exercise unrighteous dominion. (And we’ve messed that up too!). A republic is the form of government that takes us the longest to mess up! )

Now back to the main point I'm hoping you'll get from this post...

Good government, righteous government, the best government, is that government which will “establish the laws of God, and judge [the] people according to [God's] commandments”. That's part of our test here on earth.

[mes5464]

We just read that verse the other night for family scriptures, but when I am teaching my own children about law and government I use D&C 98:4-15.

4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.

12 For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith.

13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.

14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.

15 For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.

[iamse7en]

This is tough. "judge [the] people according to [God's] commandments."

This would mean pre-marital sex, adultery, alcohol, drugs, etc would be against the law. But I guess the real question comes down to what the punishment is. Suppose a kid is caught smoking a joint. Do you throw him in a cell for a period of time? Or would a better punishment be one that focuses on rehabilitation? What if the kid doesn't want rehabilitation?

I'm not sure how Zion would function, but I know the political laws will reflect the laws of God. How then do we square our own current political ideology? E.g. I agree with Ron Paul on prohibition of drugs and alcohol. Because of the evil world we live in, strict prohibition does more harm than good. Therefore, we only support a celestial code of laws when there are celestial people? What do you guys think?

[Original_Intent]

I believe that laws that harm others will still be laws.
I don;t think that we will be force by law to pay tithing, ever, even though it is part of God's law.
As far as victimless crimes, such as drug use, pornography, etc - my personal opinion is that those will be the law of "covenant communities" communities will have their own standards and you will be bound by covenant to obey the local laws. Pure speculation on my part.

I do not believe that God ever intends for government to encroach into every aspect of our personal lives and leave no room for agency.

[mes5464]

I'm not sure how Zion would function, but I know the political laws will reflect the laws of God. How then do we square our own current political ideology? E.g. I agree with Ron Paul on prohibition of drugs and alcohol. Because of the evil world we live in, strict prohibition does more harm than good. Therefore, we only support a celestial code of laws when there are celestial people? What do you guys think?

I have changed my way of looking at this since I have read/listened to President Benson's speech the Proper Role of Government. If a private citizen doesn't have the authority to forcible prevent a person from smoking, drinking, using drugs (which are in reality all the same thing) then the citizens have no right to delegate that authority to the government. So prohibition would be wrong, the drug war would be wrong, seat belt and car seat laws would be wrong, etc.

I believe to qualify as enforcing God's laws it simply needs to provide agency and allow people to suffer the natural consequences of their choices. So the drug addict can expect no help from the government when he is hungry because he spends all of his time getting high. A drunk driver could be executed for killing someone in a drinking related accident. Somethings wouldn't be in the purview of the government any longer. Adultery would be dealt with by church court as marriage is an ordinance of God and not something the government has the right to perform, sanction, regulate, or license.

I personally think the world would be a very pleasant place to live in for everyone if God's law were enforced. There are many crimes today that wouldn't be punishable by the government. And while the spiritual consequences of those crimes are sever, many of the wicked either ignore them or don't fully understand them so they don't care. On the other hand, some things would finally be dealt with properly such as murder, rape, and child abuse. The punishment would be quick and permanent.

My two cents.

[gclayjr]

I guess a kindom reigned over by Jesus Christ as King will support God's laws... Hopefully we won't have to wait too long.

Regards,

George Clay

[davedan]

Let me explai why Pre-marital relations, pornography, drugs and alcohol SHOULD be illegal. All these vices are done for the "on-demand", "any-time" "high" and "pleasure" they produce in the brain.

The brain is all about reward and consequence, pain and pleasure. That's how the brain works. The brain is designed to reward a person with pleasurable and loving sensations for safe, smart and productive behavior. And on the other hand, the brain is made to punish damaging, unsafe and destructive behavior by producing pain and fear. When we feels these sensations, our axons form new connections that reinforce certain memories, thought processes, emotional responses, and behaviors.

However, when a person turns to drugs or other vices and "psychotropics", that person is cheating the brain. Psychotropics bypass the normal reward centers of the brain to feel "high" unnaturally. Or in other words, people who use drugs are feeling "high" without earning it.

Feeling good should be earned, not stolen. Pleasure should be the reward for hard work, achieving goals, reinforcing marital relationships, learning something new, or helping your neighbor.

The laws of the land should never promote the practice of people "unnaturally" giving themselves "on-demand highs" and "instant gratification" as a reward for sitting on the couch and smoking something.

[Original_Intent]

Let me explai why Pre-marital relations, pornography, drugs and alcohol SHOULD be illegal. All these vices are done for the "on-demand", "any-time" "high" and "pleasure" they produce in the brain.

The brain is all about reward and consequence, pain and pleasure. That's how the brain works. The brain is designed to reward a person with pleasurable and loving sensations for safe, smart and productive behavior. And on the other hand, the brain is made to punish damaging, unsafe and destructive behavior by producing pain and fear. When we feels these sensations, our axons form new connections that reinforce certain memories, thought processes, emotional responses, and behaviors.

However, when a person turns to drugs or other vices and "psychotropics", that person is cheating the brain. Psychotropics bypass the normal reward centers of the brain to feel "high" unnaturally. Or in other words, people who use drugs are feeling "high" without earning it.

Feeling good should be earned, not stolen. Pleasure should be the reward for hard work, achieving goals, reinforcing marital relationships, learning something new, or helping your neighbor.

The laws of the land should never promote the practice of people "unnaturally" giving themselves "on-demand highs" and "instant gratification" as a reward for sitting on the couch and smoking something.

I don't disagree with your analysis, but I do disagree with the idea that because you have achieved this higher understanding that you (or anyone) has the right to enforce that understanding upon someone who has not attained to that understanding yet. This is fundamental to the plan of salvation. People have the right to be punished by their wrong choices, you do not have the right to inflict punishment via depriving of life,liberty or property. As you say, eternal laws are in place, and we certainly should do all that we can to EDUCATE people so that they understand the consequences of wrong choices.

The idea that those of a higher intelligence have the right to force those of lesser intelligence to obey because "they don;t know what's good for them" is not in accordance with the Plan of Salvation.

[Like]

This is tough. "judge [the] people according to [God's] commandments."

This would mean pre-marital sex, adultery, alcohol, drugs, etc would be against the law. But I guess the real question comes down to what the punishment is. Suppose a kid is caught smoking a joint. Do you throw him in a cell for a period of time? Or would a better punishment be one that focuses on rehabilitation? What if the kid doesn't want rehabilitation?

I'm not sure how Zion would function, but I know the political laws will reflect the laws of God. How then do we square our own current political ideology? E.g. I agree with Ron Paul on prohibition of drugs and alcohol. Because of the evil world we live in, strict prohibition does more harm than good. Therefore, we only support a celestial code of laws when there are celestial people? What do you guys think?

Maybe it will look something like this:



Gives another meaning to "laying on of hands".

[davedan]

law should reflect our ideals and not the least common denominator. That said, just because something is illegal doesn't mean we punish people like we are doing now. Joseph Smith wanted to reform our Jails.

As far as the argument about a "higher understanding" vs. "lower understanding". One requirement for law is that all people under that law must be educated to understand the law.

By being clear about the purposes behind the law, the law itself can educate everyone about the higher reasons for the law.

Remember that fornication and drugs and such have been traditionally illegal. So, I am taking the conservative and traditional position. However, obviously, we have forgotten the basic reasons why drug use is wrong and damaging and unnatural and it is failure of the good people of this country to accurately explain the wisdom of the law, that has opened the door wide for debate.

Our laws, be they from a king, or by representative democracy, should reflect the laws of God. It is this point alone which make our laws good or bad in the eyes of God. Having a republic with Bad laws and bad law makers isn't any better than having a corrupt and evil king if the laws are just as corrupt and evil.

All laws are involved with enforcing morality. The question is, whose morality do we enforce?

[davedan]

Your point about people with "higher understanding" should not enforce their morality on those with a "lower understanding" totally misses the point of Mosiah 29:13.

The point of Mosiah 29:13, is that our laws (from a king or a republic) should reflect the law, understanding, and morality of God. And I don't think understanding can get any higher than God's understanding.

[natasha]

I believe that laws that harm others will still be laws.
I don;t think that we will be force by law to pay tithing, ever, even though it is part of God's law.
As far as victimless crimes, such as drug use, pornography, etc - my personal opinion is that those will be the law of "covenant communities" communities will have their own standards and you will be bound by covenant to obey the local laws. Pure speculation on my part.

I do not believe that God ever intends for government to encroach into every aspect of our personal lives and leave no room for agency.

OI..can you explain to me why or how you think drug use and pornography are victimless crimes?