Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

[armedtotheteeth]

Yes I guess not, that's what we get for having Elizabeth II on our coins a Westminster government and spelling colour with a "u"

That was a good one!

It is not an "American Forum;" its about freedom wherever you reside.
We should stand to stop all forms of wealth redistribution and socialism, as it is the opposite of freedom. Not just Healthcare but in all aspects in regards to our prospective governments. One that people struggle with here in good ol UT is education:

Apostle Woodruff who dedicated the Mormon Temple at St. George a few weeks ago figured up that the cost of free schools would eat up the entire property of the territory— real and personal—in twenty years, and recommended that the Saints save from their whiskey and tobacco indulgence the cost of educating their children. (Salt Lake Tribune, Jan. 23, 1877)

If you want to pauperize a community unity, begin by giving them something they never earned. If the state owes to the child schooling, it also by a parity of reasoning, owes to it food and clothing at public expense. If you want to destroy in a child’s mind that feeling of energy, self-respect, and self-reliance, which all should have, you would impress upon him that the state owes him something upon which he can depend (Elder George Q. Cannon -- Salt Lake Tribune, April 12, 1877)

I am opposed to free education as much as I am opposed to taking property from one man and giving it to another...Would I encourage free schools by taxation? No! --Brigham Young (JD 18:357)

Establish schools taught by those of our own faith, where being free from the trammels of State aid, they can unhesitatingly teach the doctrines of true religion combined with the various branches of general education. John Taylor (Direction to the Idaho Saints, Messages of the First Presidency Vol. 3, p. 5)

Although infidelity is not directly taught in the public schools, its spirit is fostered by the exclusion of religious education. --George Q. Cannon (General Board of Education Minutes, April 1889)

It will be a great temptation to many people to send their children to the free school that will now be supported by our taxes, but of what value is learning if it is acquired at the expense of faith. --George Q. Cannon (Juv. Inst., Vol. 25 p. 243)

[patriotsaint]

gkearney, it seems obvious we're not welcome here. Oh well.

Hate to break the news, but this forum is VERY MUCH an "American" forum.

No, you are both welcome here, since it is a forum for Latter Day Saints. Instead of crying about how unfair the topic of discussion is however, how about contributing something other than emotionally charged arguments?

The prophets have clearly taught the evils of socialism. If you are offended by that it says more about you than it does about the members of the LDS Freedom Forum.

By all means though, continue to demonize those who dislike suckling at the government teat. We're all just a bunch of heartless, cutthroat, intolerant, libertarian-leaning nut-jobs.

[ChelC]

This topic always gets heated. We are homesick for order, for perfect justice, for liberty coupled with responsibility.

My opinion on the subject has changed from what it once was.

The fact is that I would steal to feed my children under certain circumstances. I have no doubt. That's because under those certain circumstances I would see theft from a corrupt world as preferable to the injustice being served to my children.

Charity should be our first goal. Libertarian view points are fine for a righteous people, but we are not righteous. We cannot simply dismiss the destitute by saying that under our utopia, they'd be provided for. That may be true, but things happen in degrees, and right now people need more help than we are able to provide.

Socialists may not have the right answers, but a lot of them have their priorities straighter than we do.

[Jason]

...so you are saying some are okay and others are not.....or some are justifiable but others are not???

I was the first one to vote all.....and I did it because there is no line anymore....the government is embedded in nearly every aspect of our lives.

I think its ridiculous and asinine to say one thing is bad and another is good.....to put another person down for taking one particular benefit while that person enjoys another. Where do you start and where do you stop? Social security? Medicaid? Medical insurance? Car insurance? Do you pick and choose at the grocery store between subsidized industries and non-subsidized industries? Refuse to buy China made because the USA made is "assembled" in the USA? Refuse lucrative government contracts, grants, education loans, etc.? Or refuse tax exempt status for your charity organization? Do you refuse to write-off your charitable donations on your taxes or refuse the child tax credit? Do you pay taxes and support the Military Industrial Complex? Do you refuse to transact business in Federal Reserve notes (the private banking cartel)? Are you 100% out of debt and refuse to contribute to the collapse of the system.....or the stealing of all assets by the banks? Do you refuse to utilize their credit cards and other tools? Do you refuse a social security number so that they can't borrow money against you?

Is it morally right to accept government benefits? That's like asking if its morally right to live in housing developments where they have housing codes....you can't even live on your own property with no utilities without some government organization telling you how to live your life and ENFORCING those codes upon you whether you like it or not. Your only choice if you are 100% moral....is to flippin move out of the country!!!

Wake the heck up....we live in a dictatorship! Your sole remaining Constitutional thread is the "franchise" or "right" to go to the voting station and enter in your choices.....no guarantee that they are counted or that they make any difference....but you have the right to mark up the paper or click the mouse.....and its been this way since 1976 according to Ezra Taft Benson. The representatives in CONgress haven't truly represented us for multiple decades. The gads have sole management of the government and probably have had it since the 50's if not a decade or so earlier.

If you aren't 100% morally aligned when it comes to socialism and living outside this country at this time under this government.....does it really matter if you are 90% or 80% or 70%....Is the Lord going to care whether you were 75% or 50%? If you turned down unemployment benefits for a couple of months but then took that government job where you did next to nothing yet took home a six figure pay check? If you refused to educate your children in public schools but accepted unearned income tax credits from the IRS?

If you do happen to do all of the above (CHH)....can you still manage to be a productive member of society (you actually produce stuff that people use/eat)? Provide for your family? Accomplish the missions of the church?

But no we'll rant and rave while the insert in the Ensign recommends the unemployed (the majority through no fault of their own - i.e. debt saturation or deflation) seek available benefits.

The government can create an industry one day and destroy another the next. They can tax you to their hearts delight. They can take your property whenever they so desire. They can throw you in prison or kill you without a trial. They can implement martial law or 100% complete dictatorship whenever they feel like it. They can enforce all the previous with soldiers whom you financial support via taxes. They control the value of your money. They control your food and health care. They control your education. They control your church. They do not control God.....and when ripe will be destroyed!

We are all slaves and nearly powerless. Some think they are the next George Washington or Captain Moroni....but the reality is they can read your license plate from outer space and are in the process of tracking every move you make - both physical and on the internet. They are building databases on each and every one of us based on the information collected via online social networks (facebook, email, etc), credit cards or financial history, military history, education history, employment history, census data, tax data, gps, car (Onstar), etc. etc. etc. etc.

George Washington only won with a miracle.....Captain Moroni only won with a miracle....and we'll need some miracles or judgments to break the chains of the adversary. Until then is it wise to try and state that one person has heavier chains that another....or that one more willingly wears the chains versus another??? Or that one chain is better or lighter than another? For example food stamps versus a government grant to work in Haiti.....both use taxpayer dollars via government force.

Lots of goods points there. Thank you. You've given me a lot two think about. How would you balance your statements following quotes?

"Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, "I am a contributing taxpayer too." By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency." ETB BYU 12 April 1977

"“We are to be free from dependence upon a dole or any program that might endanger our free agency.” (Apostle Howard W. Hunter, General Conference October 1975)

“Occasionally, we receive questions as to the propriety of Church members receiving government assistance instead of Church assistance. Let me restate what is a fundamental principle. Individuals, to the extent possible, should provide for their own needs. Where the individual is unable to care for himself, his family should assist. Where the family is not able to provide, the Church should render assistance, not the government.” (Elder Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference April 1977)

“If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.” (Elder Boyd K Packer, General Conference April 1978)

“Elections often turn on what the candidates promise to do for voters from government funds. This practice, if universally accepted and implemented in any society, will make slaves of its citizens. We cannot afford to become wards of the government, even if we have a legal right to do so. It requires too great a sacrifice of self-respect and in political, temporal, and spiritual independence. ” (President Marion G. Romney, General Conference October 1982)

Mummy, are you saying that in 30 years time such statements no longer apply? I would appreciate your further thoughts in light of those quotes.

Let's work through those statements. I'm not stating that we rationalize....just saying that the government has infiltrated every aspect of our lives. What each person does is between them and the Lord. Sometimes you just make the choice knowing that you'd rather have it different but its the best choice at the moment. I hated the thought of unemployment benefits (despite paying in for couple decades)....but after several months I finally did and that money ended up saving my bacon. I have family members on food stamps and other programs....and while I don't agree with that....I'm not in their shoes and I'm at another section of the trough with work trying to get some government grants via directives from my employer. I also accepted government grants and loans to obtain my education....and I used Medicaid during school to keep the debt down while also fulfilling the prophetic mandate to not put off having children (3 kids during 4 1/2 years of school). Now I could try and rationalize it by saying that I worked at UPS for medical benefits unloading trailers in the wee hours of the morning....until I herniated a couple discs in my back.....but the reality is I made the choice, for better or worse, to accept the government medical. I've also not turned down the tax credits that resulted in a tax refund without paying any taxes. But all of that may be to my detriment or may be not....between me and the Lord.

I know you have made some tough choices and big sacrifices to stay free of government aid (medical, education, etc.).....but at the same time seemed more than willing to accept an opportunity to bump your income a couple times over via government aide to go to Haiti. The only reason I point that out is that it appears we are all at the government trough at one point or another. Is it bad - yes! Is it reality - yes!

What I'm trying to point out though is that the government is in every aspect of their lives and I have yet to meet someone who has completely weened themselves off the government....If you have I would really like to hear how you have accomplished that!!! If you haven't....then what difference does it make whether you only drink 1/2 of what someone else is drinking.....or you suckle from another side through one of the myriad programs?

Our free agency is already constrained or endangered. As with most, if not all of these quotes, they are true....but obviously at this point - not everyone listened. That is clearly depicted in the insert that was in the Ensign encouraging people to seek available government assistance.

Here's an example - China. Look at how the church operates in China in compliance with government law. Does China's government operate within correct principles? NO. Does the church advocate the Chinese people trying to change the law or obtain liberty/freedom (live correct principles)? NO. The church operates within reasonable constraints....because the dead cold reality at the end of the day is - they can't do much about it. If they did it would hinder the mission of the church as well as get a bunch of people killed. Look at the proclamation on polygamy....

The situation is similar now in the US. We are not that far removed from China. Granted we have yet to see nets installed around our manufacturing plants to "catch" the employees as they try to escape and go "home".....but we support that every day in how we spend our dollars out of our own greed and selfishness. We readily support dictatorships throughout the world, child labor, drug trafficking, wars - arms sales, military invasion, and ultimately satanic oppression because we have "benefited" from it. We bury our heads and try to ignore the cold harsh realities (military bases in 160 countries around the world) because it disrupts the facade we have created when we look at ourselves in the mirror.

Of course by "we" I mean US citizens as a whole. Now with regard to the minority position within the church....yes we should be doing our absolute best to make a difference. But we are constrained by the realities of the situation in which we live in - the macro choices of the whole. Until the weeding occurs and the chains of oppression are broken....those constraints are vast and numerous.

[Original_Intent]

but if you are saying such a socialized government healthcare system is a good thing, you are opposing correct principles and the teachings of the prophets.

I'm downright GRATEFUL for our healthcare system!!! Shock!!! Must be going to hell now.....

Yeah, I am sure you will be offended, but while I understand you participating in the system, lauding it as one worthy of aspiring to - in this regard you are clearly unfamiliar with teachings of the prophets and correct principles. That is not U.S. centric, that is gospel-centric. But I am sure it will be chalked up to "being raised in the incorrect traditions of their fathers" and I have plenty of areas in my own life where I will be guilty of the same.

No offense intended, but I am not sure how to stand on principle and not offend someone who clearly disagrees.

And like Brian, I don;t condemn anyone who participates in ANY system that they are forced to pay into...not pointing fingers at anyone for that, but the system itself is worthy of condemnation, and to the extent that you speak out in favor of it, you are speaking against every word on the matter from modern prophets.

[iamse7en]

Apostle Woodruff who dedicated the Mormon Temple at St. George a few weeks ago figured up that the cost of free schools would eat up the entire property of the territory— real and personal—in twenty years, and recommended that the Saints save from their whiskey and tobacco indulgence the cost of educating their children. (Salt Lake Tribune, Jan. 23, 1877)

If you want to pauperize a community unity, begin by giving them something they never earned. If the state owes to the child schooling, it also by a parity of reasoning, owes to it food and clothing at public expense. If you want to destroy in a child’s mind that feeling of energy, self-respect, and self-reliance, which all should have, you would impress upon him that the state owes him something upon which he can depend (Elder George Q. Cannon -- Salt Lake Tribune, April 12, 1877)

I am opposed to free education as much as I am opposed to taking property from one man and giving it to another...Would I encourage free schools by taxation? No! --Brigham Young (JD 18:357)

Establish schools taught by those of our own faith, where being free from the trammels of State aid, they can unhesitatingly teach the doctrines of true religion combined with the various branches of general education. John Taylor (Direction to the Idaho Saints, Messages of the First Presidency Vol. 3, p. 5)

Although infidelity is not directly taught in the public schools, its spirit is fostered by the exclusion of religious education. --George Q. Cannon (General Board of Education Minutes, April 1889)

It will be a great temptation to many people to send their children to the free school that will now be supported by our taxes, but of what value is learning if it is acquired at the expense of faith. --George Q. Cannon (Juv. Inst., Vol. 25 p. 243)

Awesome quotes! armedtotheteeth, do you have a collection of statements like these? I love hearing what the prophets say about things like socialism, public schooling, and receiving gov't benefits. More please!

[shadow]

gkearney, it seems obvious we're not welcome here. Oh well.

Hate to break the news, but this forum is VERY MUCH an "American" forum.

Chem, I suppose the basic principle of agency is only an american thing (or used to be!).

To fund these social programs requires money. To get the money, the government forces it's citizens (or slaves) to pay up via tax. If a person refuses to pay he'll find his butt in jail. Yep, that's what Jesus would do eh gkearney (seeing how you're the one that brought this up earlier)? He'd force a person to go to jail or even kill that person for refusing to go to jail (a lot of people die refusing to allow a police officer to arrest them) just to prove the point that public transportation (or healthcare) must be funded. What right does Jesus have to kill me for deciding that the use of my labor and property is my responsibility and my stewardship, not the governments? Where is the commandement that "thou shalt force people to pay for services they don't want"? Where do I find that commandement?

[shadow]

I should clarify that if a group of people (a community) choose to give X amount of dollars each month into a health care fund for all in the community to use then great! But when a person decides they no longer want to contribute they should be allowed to discontinue the contribution without retribution. This allows agency to work.

In a rural area here in cache valley the school district stopped providing a school bus for the kids (as it should be!). A group of residents got together and bought a bus using their own funds. They pay x amount of dollars each month for gas/maintenance etc. and one of the parents volunteers to drive. This is how it should work. People coming together without using force or coercion. PERFECT!

[patriotsaint]

I should clarify that if a group of people (a community) choose to give X amount of dollars each month into a health care fund for all in the community to use then great! But when a person decides they no longer want to contribute they should be allowed to discontinue the contribution without retribution. This allows agency to work.

In a rural area here in cache valley the school district stopped providing a school bus for the kids (as it should be!). A group of residents got together and bought a bus using their own funds. They pay x amount of dollars each month for gas/maintenance etc. and one of the parents volunteers to drive. This is how it should work. People coming together without using force or coercion. PERFECT!

Imagine that. Living these principles is not just a pipe dream but can actually happen if we allow it to. I applaud those citizens that chose to act instead of complaining they had been acted upon.

[ChelC]

If we are not personally doing all we can our political notions are empty. Sometimes it seems like the forum focuses so much on the political, that we forget the second greatest commandment.

It's dismissive to say to Mr. Kearney's wife that waiting for a return of proper government is a solution to her problems. We aren't righteous enough for proper government, so is making a corrupt government work for her the greater sin? I personally don't think it is.

There are not two types, a Zion people and a people ripe for destruction... There are degrees in between and we do have to have some workable solutions to offer. That's where our forum falls short. We need to love our neighbors as ourselves. We need to offer more. We need to give more of our temporal and spiritual blessings.

If we just dismiss problems we aren't likely to win many hearts and minds.

[patriotsaint]

If we are not personally doing all we can our political notions are empty. Sometimes it seems like the forum focuses so much on the political, that we forget the second greatest commandment.

It's dismissive to say to Mr. Kearney's wife that waiting for a return of proper government is a solution to her problems. We aren't righteous enough for proper government, so is making a corrupt government work for her the greater sin? I personally don't think it is.

There are not two types, a Zion people and a people ripe for destruction... There are degrees in between and we do have to have some workable solutions to offer. That's where our forum falls short. We need to love our neighbors as ourselves. We need to offer more. We need to give more of our temporal and spiritual blessings.

If we just dismiss problems we aren't likely to win many hearts and minds.

I don't think anyone has said that Mr Kearney's wife should just wait for a return to proper government. My problem with what Mr Kearney has posted here is his vigorous defense of a corrupt system. Sure, we are all forced to participate to a certain extent in the corrupt system, but that doesn't mean we should sing it's praises. I think we can all make the best of the situation we have been placed in, while still supporting correct principles to the fullest extent possible.

The Lord judges our hearts. We should learn and embrace correct principles now, so that when the opportunity comes to live them we are ready. The citizens in Shadow's example did exactly that. They didn't whine that their government largess had ended, but exercised their agency and fixed the problem.

Espousing correct principles doesn't make one heartless. We can still participate in numerous charities, pay a generous fast offerings, offer service, etc etc. We can love people and correct principles at the same time.

[ChelC]

I see the point you are making, I've argued the same myself and quite passionately. Shadow's example is fabulous and I wish every area were so inclined.

If wishes and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a very merry Christmas.

But what of those who have crappy neighbors? How about those who have an empty pantry right now?

I started another thread to talk about that some more. Please hop over and chime in.

[buffalo_girl]

You Americans are so ingrained in your way of thinking, that it seems you have a hard time even understanding other people's perspectives. You even go so far as to consider your way morally superior. Some Americans even go so far as to "spread" their American ways through war.

Yes, ChemTrail, you are absolutely right about that!

I haven't yet read every jot & tittle on this thread, but I am so sorry our brothers and sisters outside the US are getting a drumming over this issue - yet again. It's truly wearisome.

In the five (?) years I've been on this forum I've seen nearly every LDS member from other countries - with the exception of AussieOi - drop out, I suspect over US national egocentrism with the exclusive center of all that is correct being found somewhere in Salt Lake City or its immediate environs.

Let's everyone imagine the continents and islands have returned to their original configuration and ALL Nations are ONE under Christ's Kingdom. Please!

We should probably be uniting in prayer for the Lord's intervention before the NWO is totally in place. Once it is, we WILL DO what the devil tells us TO DO.

If you have the wealth to take care of yourself, CONGRATULATIONS! Hope you can hold onto it when he knocks at your door.

While we whack each other across the borders, look what our government 'guys' are doing. They aren't fighting; we are!

Are we ok with our tax dollars being spent on this?

http://www.defense.gov/Transcripts/Tran ... iptID=4761" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouve ... 00&id=3708" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Minister MacKay meets with U.S. Secretary of Defense

January 27, 2011 - Ottawa, Ontario - The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence meets with U.S. Secretary of Defense Dr. Robert M. Gates, for a bilateral meeting. During their meeting, the two ministers addressed important issues related to the security of the Western Hemisphere, such as the situation in Mexico and Central America and how Canada and the U.S. can assist their partners in the region.

They also pledged to continue to support the work of civilian law enforcement agencies in countering illicit activities such as narcotics, human trafficking and piracy. On the bilateral front, Minister MacKay and Secretary Gates discussed efforts through NORAD and the new challenges facing defence and security institutions such as maritime domain awareness and cyber threats. Minister MacKay and Secretary Gates also discussed Afghanistan, NATO and global challenges like Iran.

[shadow]

If we are not personally doing all we can our political notions are empty. Sometimes it seems like the forum focuses so much on the political, that we forget the second greatest commandment.

It's dismissive to say to Mr. Kearney's wife that waiting for a return of proper government is a solution to her problems. We aren't righteous enough for proper government, so is making a corrupt government work for her the greater sin? I personally don't think it is.

There are not two types, a Zion people and a people ripe for destruction... There are degrees in between and we do have to have some workable solutions to offer. That's where our forum falls short. We need to love our neighbors as ourselves. We need to offer more. We need to give more of our temporal and spiritual blessings.

If we just dismiss problems we aren't likely to win many hearts and minds.

I definitely understand.
We can't cut the cord on many of the services that are provided without having a replacement to these services in place. We can't have a replacement unless we have a Zion-like community that is freely willing to provide these services (obviously in an efficient manner! The assistance goes directly to those who need it and only when they need it). For now we have telestial programs for a telestial world

[shadow]

You Americans are so ingrained in your way of thinking, that it seems you have a hard time even understanding other people's perspectives. You even go so far as to consider your way morally superior. Some Americans even go so far as to "spread" their American ways through war.

Yes, ChemTrail, you are absolutely right about that!

I haven't yet read every jot & tittle on this thread, but I am so sorry our brothers and sisters outside the US are getting a drumming over this issue - yet again. It's truly wearisome.

In the five (?) years I've been on this forum I've seen nearly every LDS member from other countries - with the exception of AussieOi - drop out, I suspect over US national egocentrism with the exclusive center of all that is correct being found somewhere in Salt Lake City or its immediate environs.

Indeed you haven't read much of this thread BG, yet you opine as though you have. The only people that mentioned anything about borders happened to be Chemtrail and gkearny. Odd that, isn't it?
No one here said the United States is the example either, far from it. We're just as socialist as the next country, if not more. Certainly contrary to what has been discussed here. No one is spreading "Americanism". Whatever principles have been taught from the pulpit in Salt Lake are just as much true anywhere around the world as they are there. "America" (along with many LDS's) tossed these principles in the toilet long ago.

[buffalo_girl]

Let's everyone imagine the continents and islands have returned to their original configuration and ALL Nations are ONE under Christ's Kingdom. Please!

We should probably be uniting in prayer for the Lord's intervention before the NWO is totally in place. Once it is, we WILL DO what the devil tells us TO DO.

If you have the wealth to take care of yourself, CONGRATULATIONS! Hope you can hold onto it when he knocks at your door.

[patriotsaint]

Indeed you haven't read much of this thread BG, yet you opine as though you have. The only people that mentioned anything about borders happened to be Chemtrail and gkearny. Odd that, isn't it?
No one here said the United States is the example either, far from it. We're just as socialist as the next country, if not more. Certainly contrary to what has been discussed here. No one is spreading "Americanism". Whatever principles have been taught from the pulpit in Salt Lake are just as much true anywhere around the world as they are there. "America" (along with many LDS's) tossed these principles in the toilet long ago.

+1

[buffalo_girl]

You know what, PS, I would like you to remove my essay from your 'blog'.

http://searchandponder.blogspot.com/201 ... ormon.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indeed you haven't read much of this thread BG, yet you opine as though you have.

I have read this thread, thank you, and hold to my previous opinion. We need to get beyond our provincialism.

I thought the concept of a Forum allowed for a diversity of perspective and opinion on 'Public matters'. Perhaps I read the dictionary definition incorrectly. This seems more like a cross between a kangaroo court and a p---ing contest with the guys who think they are 'winning' giving one another 'high fives'.

[creator]

What I'm trying to point out though is that the government is in every aspect of their lives and I have yet to meet someone who has completely weened themselves off the government....If you have I would really like to hear how you have accomplished that!!! If you haven't....then what difference does it make whether you only drink 1/2 of what someone else is drinking.....or you suckle from another side through one of the myriad programs?

Branching off to discuss: How to be completely free from corrupt government?

[creator]

Here's an example - China. Look at how the church operates in China in compliance with government law. Does China's government operate within correct principles? NO. Does the church advocate the Chinese people trying to change the law or obtain liberty/freedom (live correct principles)? NO. The church operates within reasonable constraints....because the dead cold reality at the end of the day is - they can't do much about it. If they did it would hinder the mission of the church as well as get a bunch of people killed. Look at the proclamation on polygamy.... The situation is similar now in the US. We are not that far removed from China. Granted we have..

Reminds me of the D&C 134: 12, probably the verse in 134 that is most ignored...

D&C 134: 12 - We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.

Are we simply at a point in the United States, and elsewhere in the world, that the government (and PTP - Secret Combinations - Satan) has become master, and we all are the slaves!?!

[Jason]

Here's an example - China. Look at how the church operates in China in compliance with government law. Does China's government operate within correct principles? NO. Does the church advocate the Chinese people trying to change the law or obtain liberty/freedom (live correct principles)? NO. The church operates within reasonable constraints....because the dead cold reality at the end of the day is - they can't do much about it. If they did it would hinder the mission of the church as well as get a bunch of people killed. Look at the proclamation on polygamy.... The situation is similar now in the US. We are not that far removed from China. Granted we have..

Reminds me of the D&C 134: 12, probably the verse in 134 that is most ignored...

D&C 134: 12 - We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.

Are we simply at a point in the United States, and elsewhere in the world, that the government (and PTP - Secret Combinations - Satan) has become master, and we all are the slaves!?!

It appears so! Explains the silence resonating from the top of the chain of command. Of course they warned us myriad times during the journey! DEBT!!!

Bernanke's Poverty Effect: Foodstamp Recipients Jump by 400K In November, Hit New Record Of 43.6 Million

And as of November, the SNAP program had 43.6 million participants, an increase of 400k from October, and a 14% increase, or 5.3 million from a year prior.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/bernan ... 36-million" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Corn spot up 7.76%, wheat up 5.63%, Rice up 10.08%, Hogs up 10.16%, Sugar up 5.64%, Orange Juice up 3.33%, and cotton.... up 17.08%. That's in one month!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/world- ... -one-month" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unemployment debt - borrowed dollars to pay people who aren't working/producing
$42,670,725,743.72 principle $144,361,997.59 interest
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/repo ... ssched.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[patriotsaint]

Indeed you haven't read much of this thread BG, yet you opine as though you have.

I have read this thread, thank you, and hold to my previous opinion. We need to get beyond our provincialism.

I thought the concept of a Forum allowed for a diversity of perspective and opinion on 'Public matters'. Perhaps I read the dictionary definition incorrectly. This seems more like a cross between a kangaroo court and a p---ing contest with the guys who think they are 'winning' giving one another 'high fives'.

Funny. Why are you attributing a quote of Shadow's to me?

He is right however. The only people that are talking about countries here are Chemtrail and Gkearney. The rest of us are trying to talk about principles that apply to all of God's children. I'm dumbfounded that you actually take offense when a simple clarification is made by shadow and I voice my agreement with him.

[Original_Intent]

You know what, PS, I would like you to remove my essay from your 'blog'.

http://searchandponder.blogspot.com/201 ... ormon.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indeed you haven't read much of this thread BG, yet you opine as though you have.

I have read this thread, thank you, and hold to my previous opinion. We need to get beyond our provincialism.

I thought the concept of a Forum allowed for a diversity of perspective and opinion on 'Public matters'. Perhaps I read the dictionary definition incorrectly. This seems more like a cross between a kangaroo court and a p---ing contest with the guys who think they are 'winning' giving one another 'high fives'.

The bolded is what I have a big concern with. I love you and agree with you most of the time BG,a nd frankly I have been a little dumbstruck and blindsided by your positions here.

We need to get over our provincialism? Sounds like Israel clamoring for a king, and the U.S. wanting to socialize to be "more like Europe".

Thanks, I 'll stick with my provincial view that those that can need to be up and doing for themselves. There is no question that there are far more people capable of working that are on welfare rolls than those who have "nowhere to turn". Your insistnece ont he other thread that everything that I state is maybe how it should be, but "what do they do in the meantime?" is, sad to say the socialist, bleeding heart liberal line that has gotten us into our dire situation in the first place. For the umpteenth time, I am NOT saying "It sucks to be you to the poor". What I am saying, and what is consistent with gospel principles is be self sufficient, and after that turn to your family, then the church, and if those FAIL you, then turn to the public charity, legalized theft or whatever you want to call it.

The example you gave of the 21 year olds seemed to indicate that you were unsure whether they would go to their family for help. That sounds like a problem on THEIR part. If they go to their families and they will not help then condemnation on the family and then church should help them (and as the church does will likely ask them to give some service in exchange for the help - this is not selfishness this is for THEIR benefit.) Now last time I said this you said "Fine that is how it should be but what do we do in the meantime?" I'm telling you THIS is what we do in the meantime. It seems like you are not getting the answer you want and so you are just ignoring what you don;t want to hear.

[ChelC]

Myself and Buffalo Girl are indeed two separate gals, OI.

[shadow]

I have read this thread, thank you, and hold to my previous opinion. We need to get beyond our provincialism.

I thought the concept of a Forum allowed for a diversity of perspective and opinion on 'Public matters'. Perhaps I read the dictionary definition incorrectly. This seems more like a cross between a kangaroo court and a p---ing contest with the guys who think they are 'winning' giving one another 'high fives'.

Yes, get beyond our "provincialism"! It was the Canadian and Australian that were starting a provincial war, but you read the thread so you know that
Besides, I thought the concept of a Forum allowed for a diversity of perspective and opinion on public matter. Perhaps that's just the case when it all fits nice and tight with your perception? Why do I have to be excluded from giving my perspective and opinion? Of course, that's not hypocrisy is it??