Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

[iamse7en]

Good video:


This really is an excellent question that fostered an important discussion. I appreciated Mahonri's comments and linked articles. I think he's spot on.

I've been reading Murray Rothbard's "For A New Liberty," and there was en entire chapter on the Welfare question. Although written in the '70s, he spent several pages praising the "Mormon Church" and their efficient and moral private-welfare system. Reading his words reminded me how the government has used a coercive, "welfare" ponzi scheme that fosters idleness and dependence. This is not what welfare should be. It should be and do the exact opposite. He wrote:

In 1936, the Mormon Church developed a "Church Welfare Plan, . . . a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished, and independence, industry, thrift and self-respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership."

That is the purpose of welfare. In a free society, many will come down on their luck, but many more will be willing loan money or build private welfare systems that are designed for this very purpose - much like the Church has tried to do.

I used to believe that government welfare programs were just terrible ideas by good-intentioned politicians. I have since wised up. Although there may be naive politicians who have good intentions, there are many others who know full well that these programs enslave individuals and bankrupt societies all for their own power and wealth.

I voted for the second one, with hesitancy. My money has been stolen from me in the name of these programs. It really isn't even my money - the money I paid into it was spent long ago (hence the nature of ponzi schemes) - but money was stolen from me by an immoral government. So there is good argument for the first option, but the money I don't take that they tell me I'm entitled to (I guess I'm speaking about SS specifically here) will just be wasted on some immoral government activity (whether it is killing foreigners or fattening the wallets of banksters), so if I am legally allowed to take back some of the money that was once stolen from me, I believe I should capitalize on that opportunity so I can help my own family.

[Jason]

I'm shocked at how many people voted "Yes, it's okay to be on any gov program - welfare, food stamps, WIC, medicaid"

I can somewhat understand those who justify unemployment, and getting social security since they paid so much into with the expectation of getting something later... but so many people saying ALL government welfare/benefits are okay is surprising!

....so you are saying some are okay and others are not.....or some are justifiable but others are not???

I was the first one to vote all.....and I did it because there is no line anymore....the government is embedded in nearly every aspect of our lives.

I think its ridiculous and asinine to say one thing is bad and another is good.....to put another person down for taking one particular benefit while that person enjoys another. Where do you start and where do you stop? Social security? Medicaid? Medical insurance? Car insurance? Do you pick and choose at the grocery store between subsidized industries and non-subsidized industries? Refuse to buy China made because the USA made is "assembled" in the USA? Refuse lucrative government contracts, grants, education loans, etc.? Or refuse tax exempt status for your charity organization? Do you refuse to write-off your charitable donations on your taxes or refuse the child tax credit? Do you pay taxes and support the Military Industrial Complex? Do you refuse to transact business in Federal Reserve notes (the private banking cartel)? Are you 100% out of debt and refuse to contribute to the collapse of the system.....or the stealing of all assets by the banks? Do you refuse to utilize their credit cards and other tools? Do you refuse a social security number so that they can't borrow money against you?

Is it morally right to accept government benefits? That's like asking if its morally right to live in housing developments where they have housing codes....you can't even live on your own property with no utilities without some government organization telling you how to live your life and ENFORCING those codes upon you whether you like it or not. Your only choice if you are 100% moral....is to flippin move out of the country!!!

Wake the heck up....we live in a dictatorship! Your sole remaining Constitutional thread is the "franchise" or "right" to go to the voting station and enter in your choices.....no guarantee that they are counted or that they make any difference....but you have the right to mark up the paper or click the mouse.....and its been this way since 1976 according to Ezra Taft Benson. The representatives in CONgress haven't truly represented us for multiple decades. The gads have sole management of the government and probably have had it since the 50's if not a decade or so earlier.

If you aren't 100% morally aligned when it comes to socialism and living outside this country at this time under this government.....does it really matter if you are 90% or 80% or 70%....Is the Lord going to care whether you were 75% or 50%? If you turned down unemployment benefits for a couple of months but then took that government job where you did next to nothing yet took home a six figure pay check? If you refused to educate your children in public schools but accepted unearned income tax credits from the IRS?

If you do happen to do all of the above (CHH)....can you still manage to be a productive member of society (you actually produce stuff that people use/eat)? Provide for your family? Accomplish the missions of the church?

But no we'll rant and rave while the insert in the Ensign recommends the unemployed (the majority through no fault of their own - i.e. debt saturation or deflation) seek available benefits.

The government can create an industry one day and destroy another the next. They can tax you to their hearts delight. They can take your property whenever they so desire. They can throw you in prison or kill you without a trial. They can implement martial law or 100% complete dictatorship whenever they feel like it. They can enforce all the previous with soldiers whom you financial support via taxes. They control the value of your money. They control your food and health care. They control your education. They control your church. They do not control God.....and when ripe will be destroyed!

We are all slaves and nearly powerless. Some think they are the next George Washington or Captain Moroni....but the reality is they can read your license plate from outer space and are in the process of tracking every move you make - both physical and on the internet. They are building databases on each and every one of us based on the information collected via online social networks (facebook, email, etc), credit cards or financial history, military history, education history, employment history, census data, tax data, gps, car (Onstar), etc. etc. etc. etc.

George Washington only won with a miracle.....Captain Moroni only won with a miracle....and we'll need some miracles or judgments to break the chains of the adversary. Until then is it wise to try and state that one person has heavier chains that another....or that one more willingly wears the chains versus another??? Or that one chain is better or lighter than another? For example food stamps versus a government grant to work in Haiti.....both use taxpayer dollars via government force.

[fps.sledge]

gkearney,

I think I stand for the rest of the community when I say that there is a different between a government and an over-bearing government. There is a difference with a system that provides for the people services like road construction or a fire department and a system that acts as a charity or forces you to employ insurance companies when they aren't needed.

A local community wanted to donate tax-dollars to a local scouting group. A man stands up and protests. Does he protest against the scout group? No. Although the community leaders accuse him of such. The man is a scout, serves in and for the scouts with his own time and money and still calls for the community leaders to cease donations to the scouts.

At no time does the man say it's wrong for those community leaders to exist in those positions. The government has a purpose. It's purpose is limited.

[ChemtrailWatcher]

You don't need to be (thank goodness) the gospel principles are universally applicable

I don't ever recall any Church official coming up and condemning us Canadians for using our health care system (for which I am actually grateful.) AND YET I ALSO appreciate the U.S. Constitution and the ideal of limited government.

You Americans are so ingrained in your way of thinking, that it seems you have a hard time even understanding other people's perspectives. You even go so far as to consider your way morally superior. Some Americans even go so far as to "spread" their American ways through war.

I bite my tongue/typing finger on here so many times to prevent myself from commenting on the "Americanness" of this forum. Can you guys not show some respect of your international neighbours likewise??

You know, this forum is SO American-centric, is it any wonder how so few people outside of the U.S. participate on here?

[Mahonri]

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j ... 82620aRCRD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Our Divine Constitution
President Ezra Taft Benson

My beloved brethren and sisters, what a glorious blessing to be assembled in another great general conference of the Church. I ask for an interest in your faith and prayers as I speak to you about a subject that is very close to my heart and that affects the worldwide Church.

[Mahonri]

gkearney,

I think I stand for the rest of the community when I say that there is a different between a government and an over-bearing government. There is a difference with a system that provides for the people services like road construction or a fire department and a system that acts as a charity or forces you to employ insurance companies when they aren't needed.

A local community wanted to donate tax-dollars to a local scouting group. A man stands up and protests. Does he protest against the scout group? No. Although the community leaders accuse him of such. The man is a scout, serves in and for the scouts with his own time and money and still calls for the community leaders to cease donations to the scouts.

At no time does the man say it's wrong for those community leaders to exist in those positions. The government has a purpose. It's purpose is limited.

+1

[ChemtrailWatcher]

Mahonri, did you read the part where I said I appreciated your constitution? Do you even understand where I am coming from?

If you guys want an AMERICAN "Freedom Forum", YOU CAN HAVE IT!

I guess we Canadians are all going to hell....

[gkearney]

Us Australians as well.God Save the Queen!

[gooseguy11]

This is why I said limited. There are extremes on both sides. The government exists because the people want it. It all started out with the town thug or bully pushing his weight around. The town people got tired of him and hired themselves a town marshal. It just grows from there. Fire, post, roads, water, etc. We wanted the services. I think all of us agree we just want it regulated by the voice of the people not the government. If you ask the government how important they are they will tell you very much so. If you ask the average citizen, at this time in history, the people would say not so much. There has to be balance in all things. I think all governments can only run efficiently if the people it serves are a moral people, else pride and greed take over.

[creator]

It's not my intent to put down anyone, nor to condemn or judge, I was simply suprised at the responses, wasn't really expecting that.

@ChemtrailWatcher, I don't want a "balanced" website (depending on your definiton of balanced, I seek to understand truth and correct principles, and hope others are in the same process, though we are all on different levels in our understanding of different things.

For sure the prophets have taught that a socialized healthcare system (like in Canada) is wrong, that much is clear... but as Mummy and others are pointing out, considering how corrupt the system is, maybe it's not so wrong to partake of it, when it's forced upon us, considering what has been done to your options, but I haven't fully made up my mind on that, especially considering all that the prophets have taught on the matter.

I'm thankful for the perspective of others on this discussion.

[ChemtrailWatcher]

ChemtrailWatcher, I don't want a "balanced" website (depending on your definiton of balanced, I seek to understand truth and correct principles, and hope others are in the same process, though we are all on different levels in our understanding of different things.

Too bad. So sad. I don't think you see how offensive your remarks are. If you want to continue to alienate your international neighbours, that's your loss.

[creator]

Too bad. So sad. I don't think you see how offensive your remarks are. If you want to continue to alienate your international neighbours, that's your loss.

Perhaps you could tell me what I said that is so offensive to you? I'm not quite sure.

If you are referring to the Canadian Healthcare system, I'm not condemning you for using it... but if you are saying such a socialized government healthcare system is a good thing, you are opposing correct principles and the teachings of the prophets.

Using the system that was forced upon you is one thing, thinking that this system is a good thing is another.

[Squally]

I'm shocked at how many people voted "Yes, it's okay to be on any gov program - welfare, food stamps, WIC, medicaid"

I can somewhat understand those who justify unemployment, and getting social security since they paid so much into with the expectation of getting something later... but so many people saying ALL government welfare/benefits are okay is surprising!

....so you are saying some are okay and others are not.....or some are justifiable but others are not???

I was the first one to vote all.....and I did it because there is no line anymore....the government is embedded in nearly every aspect of our lives.

I think its ridiculous and asinine to say one thing is bad and another is good.....to put another person down for taking one particular benefit while that person enjoys another. Where do you start and where do you stop? Social security? Medicaid? Medical insurance? Car insurance? Do you pick and choose at the grocery store between subsidized industries and non-subsidized industries? Refuse to buy China made because the USA made is "assembled" in the USA? Refuse lucrative government contracts, grants, education loans, etc.? Or refuse tax exempt status for your charity organization? Do you refuse to write-off your charitable donations on your taxes or refuse the child tax credit? Do you pay taxes and support the Military Industrial Complex? Do you refuse to transact business in Federal Reserve notes (the private banking cartel)? Are you 100% out of debt and refuse to contribute to the collapse of the system.....or the stealing of all assets by the banks? Do you refuse to utilize their credit cards and other tools? Do you refuse a social security number so that they can't borrow money against you?

Is it morally right to accept government benefits? That's like asking if its morally right to live in housing developments where they have housing codes....you can't even live on your own property with no utilities without some government organization telling you how to live your life and ENFORCING those codes upon you whether you like it or not. Your only choice if you are 100% moral....is to flippin move out of the country!!!

Wake the heck up....we live in a dictatorship! Your sole remaining Constitutional thread is the "franchise" or "right" to go to the voting station and enter in your choices.....no guarantee that they are counted or that they make any difference....but you have the right to mark up the paper or click the mouse.....and its been this way since 1976 according to Ezra Taft Benson. The representatives in CONgress haven't truly represented us for multiple decades. The gads have sole management of the government and probably have had it since the 50's if not a decade or so earlier.

If you aren't 100% morally aligned when it comes to socialism and living outside this country at this time under this government.....does it really matter if you are 90% or 80% or 70%....Is the Lord going to care whether you were 75% or 50%? If you turned down unemployment benefits for a couple of months but then took that government job where you did next to nothing yet took home a six figure pay check? If you refused to educate your children in public schools but accepted unearned income tax credits from the IRS?

If you do happen to do all of the above (CHH)....can you still manage to be a productive member of society (you actually produce stuff that people use/eat)? Provide for your family? Accomplish the missions of the church?

But no we'll rant and rave while the insert in the Ensign recommends the unemployed (the majority through no fault of their own - i.e. debt saturation or deflation) seek available benefits.

The government can create an industry one day and destroy another the next. They can tax you to their hearts delight. They can take your property whenever they so desire. They can throw you in prison or kill you without a trial. They can implement martial law or 100% complete dictatorship whenever they feel like it. They can enforce all the previous with soldiers whom you financial support via taxes. They control the value of your money. They control your food and health care. They control your education. They control your church. They do not control God.....and when ripe will be destroyed!

We are all slaves and nearly powerless. Some think they are the next George Washington or Captain Moroni....but the reality is they can read your license plate from outer space and are in the process of tracking every move you make - both physical and on the internet. They are building databases on each and every one of us based on the information collected via online social networks (facebook, email, etc), credit cards or financial history, military history, education history, employment history, census data, tax data, gps, car (Onstar), etc. etc. etc. etc.

George Washington only won with a miracle.....Captain Moroni only won with a miracle....and we'll need some miracles or judgments to break the chains of the adversary. Until then is it wise to try and state that one person has heavier chains that another....or that one more willingly wears the chains versus another??? Or that one chain is better or lighter than another? For example food stamps versus a government grant to work in Haiti.....both use taxpayer dollars via government force.

Amen.....Wow. That was one amazing summation Mummy. Loved it!

[ChemtrailWatcher]

but if you are saying such a socialized government healthcare system is a good thing, you are opposing correct principles and the teachings of the prophets.

I'm downright GRATEFUL for our healthcare system!!! Shock!!! Must be going to hell now.....

[armedtotheteeth]

"Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, "I am a contributing taxpayer too." By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency." ETB BYU 12 April 1977

"“We are to be free from dependence upon a dole or any program that might endanger our free agency.” (Apostle Howard W. Hunter, General Conference October 1975)

“Occasionally, we receive questions as to the propriety of Church members receiving government assistance instead of Church assistance. Let me restate what is a fundamental principle. Individuals, to the extent possible, should provide for their own needs. Where the individual is unable to care for himself, his family should assist. Where the family is not able to provide, the Church should render assistance, not the government.” (Elder Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference April 1977)

“If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.” (Elder Boyd K Packer, General Conference April 1978)

“Elections often turn on what the candidates promise to do for voters from government funds. This practice, if universally accepted and implemented in any society, will make slaves of its citizens. We cannot afford to become wards of the government, even if we have a legal right to do so. It requires too great a sacrifice of self-respect and in political, temporal, and spiritual independence. ” (President Marion G. Romney, General Conference October 1982)

[gkearney]

BrianM

Can you provide us with a direct and specific quote from a church leader that the Canadian, Australian or some other national health insurance system is against the teaching of the church? There seems to be a great deal of people making sweeping statements like this but little in the way of documentation that the Church or it's leader actually coming out and saying that Canadian, Australians or English saints should not take part in such systems or that such systems are evil and wrong.

Again I want clear unambiguous statements from documented sources stating specifically that our national health schemes are out of harmony with the teaching of the church. I can think of no church leader ever coming to Australia and making such a statement, no letter from the First Presidency.

[creator]

...so you are saying some are okay and others are not.....or some are justifiable but others are not???

I was the first one to vote all.....and I did it because there is no line anymore....the government is embedded in nearly every aspect of our lives.

I think its ridiculous and asinine to say one thing is bad and another is good.....to put another person down for taking one particular benefit while that person enjoys another. Where do you start and where do you stop? Social security? Medicaid? Medical insurance? Car insurance? Do you pick and choose at the grocery store between subsidized industries and non-subsidized industries? Refuse to buy China made because the USA made is "assembled" in the USA? Refuse lucrative government contracts, grants, education loans, etc.? Or refuse tax exempt status for your charity organization? Do you refuse to write-off your charitable donations on your taxes or refuse the child tax credit? Do you pay taxes and support the Military Industrial Complex? Do you refuse to transact business in Federal Reserve notes (the private banking cartel)? Are you 100% out of debt and refuse to contribute to the collapse of the system.....or the stealing of all assets by the banks? Do you refuse to utilize their credit cards and other tools? Do you refuse a social security number so that they can't borrow money against you?

Is it morally right to accept government benefits? That's like asking if its morally right to live in housing developments where they have housing codes....you can't even live on your own property with no utilities without some government organization telling you how to live your life and ENFORCING those codes upon you whether you like it or not. Your only choice if you are 100% moral....is to flippin move out of the country!!!

Wake the heck up....we live in a dictatorship! Your sole remaining Constitutional thread is the "franchise" or "right" to go to the voting station and enter in your choices.....no guarantee that they are counted or that they make any difference....but you have the right to mark up the paper or click the mouse.....and its been this way since 1976 according to Ezra Taft Benson. The representatives in CONgress haven't truly represented us for multiple decades. The gads have sole management of the government and probably have had it since the 50's if not a decade or so earlier.

If you aren't 100% morally aligned when it comes to socialism and living outside this country at this time under this government.....does it really matter if you are 90% or 80% or 70%....Is the Lord going to care whether you were 75% or 50%? If you turned down unemployment benefits for a couple of months but then took that government job where you did next to nothing yet took home a six figure pay check? If you refused to educate your children in public schools but accepted unearned income tax credits from the IRS?

If you do happen to do all of the above (CHH)....can you still manage to be a productive member of society (you actually produce stuff that people use/eat)? Provide for your family? Accomplish the missions of the church?

But no we'll rant and rave while the insert in the Ensign recommends the unemployed (the majority through no fault of their own - i.e. debt saturation or deflation) seek available benefits.

The government can create an industry one day and destroy another the next. They can tax you to their hearts delight. They can take your property whenever they so desire. They can throw you in prison or kill you without a trial. They can implement martial law or 100% complete dictatorship whenever they feel like it. They can enforce all the previous with soldiers whom you financial support via taxes. They control the value of your money. They control your food and health care. They control your education. They control your church. They do not control God.....and when ripe will be destroyed!

We are all slaves and nearly powerless. Some think they are the next George Washington or Captain Moroni....but the reality is they can read your license plate from outer space and are in the process of tracking every move you make - both physical and on the internet. They are building databases on each and every one of us based on the information collected via online social networks (facebook, email, etc), credit cards or financial history, military history, education history, employment history, census data, tax data, gps, car (Onstar), etc. etc. etc. etc.

George Washington only won with a miracle.....Captain Moroni only won with a miracle....and we'll need some miracles or judgments to break the chains of the adversary. Until then is it wise to try and state that one person has heavier chains that another....or that one more willingly wears the chains versus another??? Or that one chain is better or lighter than another? For example food stamps versus a government grant to work in Haiti.....both use taxpayer dollars via government force.

Lots of goods points there. Thank you. You've given me a lot two think about. How would you balance your statements following quotes?

"Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, "I am a contributing taxpayer too." By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency." ETB BYU 12 April 1977

"“We are to be free from dependence upon a dole or any program that might endanger our free agency.” (Apostle Howard W. Hunter, General Conference October 1975)

“Occasionally, we receive questions as to the propriety of Church members receiving government assistance instead of Church assistance. Let me restate what is a fundamental principle. Individuals, to the extent possible, should provide for their own needs. Where the individual is unable to care for himself, his family should assist. Where the family is not able to provide, the Church should render assistance, not the government.” (Elder Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference April 1977)

“If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.” (Elder Boyd K Packer, General Conference April 1978)

“Elections often turn on what the candidates promise to do for voters from government funds. This practice, if universally accepted and implemented in any society, will make slaves of its citizens. We cannot afford to become wards of the government, even if we have a legal right to do so. It requires too great a sacrifice of self-respect and in political, temporal, and spiritual independence. ” (President Marion G. Romney, General Conference October 1982)

Mummy, are you saying that in 30 years time such statements no longer apply? I would appreciate your further thoughts in light of those quotes.

[armedtotheteeth]

Chemtrailwatcher:
I am sympathetic to your view, my wife is English, and grew up with the NHS her whole life. But after much pray and study (it wasnt easy) she realizes how horrible it is on all levels. Her family, back home in the UK, are now set up on private health insurance as they are learning the errors of the socialist nightmare called national healthcare. And from what I have seen the Canadian system is worse off then theirs.

[ChemtrailWatcher]

But after much pray and study (it wasnt easy) she realizes how horrible it is on all levels. Her family, back home in the UK, are now set up on private health insurance as they are learning the errors of the socialist nightmare called national healthcare.

You're entitled to your opinions. I'm entitled to mine (and I don't consider my country's healthcare system a "nightmare".) But please don't think that you're on a moral high ground. I can tell you're trying not to sound offensive, and yet you are.

You know, this debate is useless. It's for Americans and Americans only. End of story.

I think there's some pretty good reasons why Ezra Taft Benson toned down his talk of politics when he became President of the Church. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that we belong to a worldwide church, and every nation has its own systems of government. Sure, some are more "ideal" than others, but to turn the political debate into a MORAL issue is a great way to alienate Church members from other countries.

[creator]

Can you provide us with a direct and specific quote from a church leader that the Canadian, Australian or some other national health insurance system is against the teaching of the church?

Read the above quotes that 'armedtotheteeth' posted.. also other quotes and articles linked to in this discussion. This might help you also: Is Socialism Wrong? And What is Socialism?

The principles the prophets have taught are clear, and not in favor of a national health insurance system. Socialism is socialism.

[ChemtrailWatcher]

Ugh. I've had it here. I am so sick of the prevailing sense of moral superiority on this forum.

[armedtotheteeth]

@ chemtrailwatcher, sorry if I offended you, it really was not my intent to do so.

[ChemtrailWatcher]

chemtrailwatcher, sorry if I offended you, it really was not my intent to do so.

I know it was not your intent. It's OK.

[gkearney]

Just to be clear here your admitting to us that there is no direct quote telling the saints in Canada, Australia or other nations that there national health schemes are wrong and that the saints in those nations should not take part in them or use the services they provided. If that is what the Prophet wants us to do then let him say so to us. They know how to communicate with the saints in Canada, Australia and other lands if they so wish.

I have heard Americans say that national health system provide companies in Canada and Australia with an unfair advantage over their American competitors. That U.S. companies are burdened with health insurance costs that Canadian and Australian companies are not. Perhaps this is the real source of the complaint.

If you Americans want to go around with 1/3 of the nation uninsured that's your right but don't come all high minded and preachy to the rest of the world about it. And don't expect us to follow your national trend. Believe it or not the world doesn't revolve around the United States.

[creator]

Ugh. I've had it here. I am so sick of the prevailing sense of moral superiority on this forum.

You know, this is not an American forum, this is a freedom forum, it's also not a socialism forum.

Are you upset because some of us are saying the prophets have clearly taught that nation health care systems are wrong? The principles on this are clear... I'm not judging or condemning you for using a corrupt system that has been forced upon you... but I'm simply pointing out that the system itself is wrong, and the scriptures, principles and prophets back this up. Step back for a moment and actually read what the prophets are saying, and apply their teachings to national health care and other government programs. There is a wealth of information that will help you in your learning process at LatterdayConservative.com... There do indeed exist certain fundamental principles of good government. (See: The Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson).