Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

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Is it morally right to accept government benefits? (to get back what you paid into it)

No, it's not morally right, even though I was forced to pay into the system.
11
20%
Yes, but only those that I was forced to pay into (social security, unemployment, medicare)
21
38%
Yes, it's okay to be on any gov program - welfare, food stamps, WIC, medicaid
23
42%
 
Total votes: 55
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Jason
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Jason »

Rensai wrote:I have to say in times past, I would have probably answered negative to the question without a second thought, but I've changed my opinion. Before anyone asks, no, its not because I'm on welfare. Thankfully I'm still working. However, I see the system we live in. I see people who desperately seek work forced to choose between caring for their children and their pride about welfare.

When a person could work, but chooses welfare, that is immoral. When a person fakes disability to get welfare, that is immoral. When a person lies or cheats others to get welfare that is immoral and so forth. BUT, when a person, despite their best efforts, has no other recourse but welfare, then I think it is immoral to suffer needlessly. In that case, swallow the pride, take the welfare, and continue to work towards self sufficiency as soon as possible. If a person does that, they are in line with the church's guidance and are living morally.

That said, I'd love to see a better system put in to place, but until then, I guess I'm taking a "make the best of a bad situation" kind of a stance on this.
Amen! For example choosing between deeper debt or government handouts.....its not a win/win proposition!

Reality is the monetary system is designed to steal everything and leave everyone homeless on the land their forefathers conquered.....and its coming to fruition!

Nearly 11 Percent of US Houses Empty
http://www.cnbc.com/id/41355854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nearly 3 million homes were repossessed by banks between January 2007 and August 2010, according to RealtyTrac, and many others have been taken over in the months since.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerma ... y?PageNr=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deutsche Bank, an authority on housing, is the most pessimistic; its analysts predicted in 2009 that as many as 48 percent of the mortgages in America could have negative equity by this year. In any case, the raw material for foreclosures—delinquencies—are on the rise, so we can certainly expect a significant increase in the roughly 25 percent of home mortgages already underwater and with that, more delinquencies and foreclosures.

According to the Mortgage Bankers Association, at least 8 million Americans are at least one month behind on their mortgage payments.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerma ... e-recovery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A recent report by Pew’s Fiscal Analysis Initiative shows 30 percent, or 4.2 million of the 14 million, of those who are jobless have been unemployed for a year or more — the federal government defines long-term unemployed as six months or longer — the highest percentage since World War II as of December 2010.

In the last year, the number of long-term unemployed is up 25 percent, from the 3.4 people affected in December 2009, according to the report.
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/8 ... c-recovery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gallup Finds Unemployment at 9.6% in December
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145478/Gallu ... ember.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....its called debt saturation after nearly a 100 years of the private banking cartel called the Federal Reserve. Or in other words the end of easy money and beginning of the default spiral that won't quit until nearly every last one of us has been rooted from our homes and robbed of all we possess (unless you've stayed out of debt, saved up for a rainy day, and can get enough neighbors mad to keep property taxes down).....or we riot and burn down the country.....which ever comes first. As President Monson said - There will be a day of reckoning! You can take that to the bank....with your IOU of course!

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Mosby
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Mosby »

Kinda of funny how journying through life teaches you that things aren't always as cut and dried as you once thought they were.


Buff Girl- Ayn Rand was a wicked, wicked woman- you are correct in your view :)

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creator
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by creator »

Mummy wrote:Amen! For example choosing between deeper debt or government handouts.....its not a win/win proposition!
And for some a change of mindset is also absolutely necessary.

I have heard stories of people who lost their job, got a cut in pay, or whatnot, and they went to the bishop for assistance... the problem is some weren't willing to give up (or sell) the boat, ATVs, summer cottage in babylon, cabin, luxury cars, cable TV, etc... and they expected the bishop was going to provide assistance without them first doing all they could to cut back to the bare necessities of life!

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Jason
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Jason »

BrianM wrote:
Mummy wrote:Amen! For example choosing between deeper debt or government handouts.....its not a win/win proposition!
And for some a change of mindset is also absolutely necessary.

I have heard stories of people who lost their job, got a cut in pay, or whatnot, and they went to the bishop for assistance... the problem is some weren't willing to give up (or sell) the boat, ATVs, summer cottage in babylon, cabin, luxury cars, cable TV, etc... and they expected the bishop was going to provide assistance without them first doing all they could to cut back to the bare necessities of life!
Nearly all of the wards I have been in have been negative fast offerings....along with those of family members who are also serving or have served in Bishoprics.

freedomforall
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by freedomforall »

Thank you, Buffalo Girl, for your kind words. I liked your input on Agent Orange as well.

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Jason
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Jason »

SafeLink Wireless is a government supported program that provides a free cell phone and airtime each month for income-eligible customers.
https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Enroll ... /home.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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AussieOi
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by AussieOi »

gkearney wrote:This is a kind of silly thing really let's carry it out to it logical conciliation shall we?

No use of any form of public education.
No use of public transportation.
No use of the streets, road or your American interstate highway system.
No use of airlines (who pays for the building of airports, who runs the air traffic control sytem.)
No use of public parks, local state or national.
No use of public water and sewer systems. (if you think your water fees has paid for all that infrastructure think again.)
No use of land planning (yes this means that someone could put a strip joint next the the temple!)
No one will come and plow your street in the winter, fix to pot hole in the road, pick up the trash, or put out fires.
No public heath services, decease just runs rampant.
No public libraries.
No port facilities, no Coast Guard, aids to navigation, lighthouses, etc.
No environmental protection, your neighbour can dump whatever he like into air, water and soil.
No public infrastructure of any kind, sidewalks, streetlights, stoplights, EMTs.
No weather service, tropical storms will just arrive with little or no notice.

I think you can see where this is going.

have had this conversation a thousand times before here
give it up
look for the thread here on Social Security, or SS
SwissMrs and I went on for 14 pages, save your breath
anything you might type we did



Re: Welfare and the Priesthood question
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... ity#p50079" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Churches Stance on Social Security and Welfare
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... ity#p66902" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just how different from communism is the system we currently live under
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... l+security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


What about social security?
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... ty#p104802" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

July Ensign and Govt welfare
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... l+security" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

34 million Americans (23% of taxpayers) on food stamps
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... ity#p87268" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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mes5464
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by mes5464 »

BrianM wrote:
fps.sledge wrote:...Apparently the Universities (at least UVU said this) are requiring students to file a FAFSA (Federal Application for Financial Student Aid) whether or not you want the money...
I highly doubt that. Do you have any proof of it being a requirement?
My daughter is required to do it. She starts BYUI in the fall. They are now tying ALL grants and scholarships to filling out a FAFSA. You don't have any hope of getting help with college without the FAFSA now.

Remember, government first everyone else is second. They know best after all. @-)

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creator
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by creator »

mes5464 wrote:
BrianM wrote:
fps.sledge wrote:...Apparently the Universities (at least UVU said this) are requiring students to file a FAFSA (Federal Application for Financial Student Aid) whether or not you want the money...
I highly doubt that. Do you have any proof of it being a requirement?
My daughter is required to do it. She starts BYUI in the fall. They are now tying ALL grants and scholarships to filling out a FAFSA. You don't have any hope of getting help with college without the FAFSA now.
This is different though. fps.sledge was implying that ALL students are required to file a FAFSA, not just students seeking grants and scholarships.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Of course it's not morally right. To give or take at all is not morally right. Being murdered by a lynch mob or taking part in one isn't moral. Neither is it moral for our hired hands to do so. The only moral solution is that such be abolished or that we do not participate in it at all and it not be done in our name by our representatives (us by proxy).

The whole thing is immoral and we are caught in the pincers trap shouting at each other from the corrupted sides of the corrupted vessel.

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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by creator »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Of course it's not morally right. To give or take at all is not morally right. Being murdered by a lynch mob or taking part in one isn't moral. Neither is it moral for our hired hands to do so. The only moral solution is that such be abolished or that we do not participate in it at all and it not be done in our name by our representatives (us by proxy).

The whole thing is immoral and we are caught in the pincers trap shouting at each other from the corrupted sides of the corrupted vessel.
and even the internet service provider you are using to write this message is funded in part by "USDA Rural Utilities Service and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act".

Does that make it morally wrong to use the internet?

Seems there's no escaping it.

fps.sledge
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by fps.sledge »

BrianM wrote: I highly doubt that. Do you have any proof of it being a requirement?
No I don't have any evidence, btw.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Exactly Brian. We are all in this system. We each must make our way through it with as little negative effect to our eternal families and as much positive freedom and opportunity for them. Paying into and receiving from is equally corrupt and evil in a corrupted system. There is no virtue in masochism. The system is thoroughly corrupted, therefore any participation is tainted. We are however, for the most part stuck with it, in it. We don't really have a choice. It is predominately a question of working to protect our families by whatever legal means within the system while working to restore it to what it should be. Pointing fingers at each other while the real villains sell us further into bondage is supremely stupid.

randont
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by randont »


I sure don't disagree with anything you said here, ChelC - err I mean buffalo_girl. :oops: :D And I don't look down on or have any bad feelings towards other saints regardless of what country they live in or how socialist their country is - particularly considering our own awful situation. HOWEVER,

when people start going off on how THANKFUL they are for such Socialist programs, start putting down others who support the correct principle as being nationalistic and that their way of doing things is every bit as legitimate and in line with gospel principles as free market, laizee faire capitalism (not to be confused witht he current corporatocracy in the U.S.) then yes, while not condemning them for following the incorrect traditions of their fathers, I am going to correct them and say that trying to lay the position at the feet of nationalistic arrogance is wrong. And nationality was not even brought into the conversation until they brought it into the conversation and started acting like they were being beaten up on by those of us in the U.S. And then others jumped in to their defense as if they had been attacked in the first place.

Sorry, not falling for the playing of the victim card here. If you want to defend socialism please do so on the merits and don't bring nationality into the conversation, and certainly don't then claim that the argument is being fought among nationalistic lines, and the only reason you can;t make your case is you are outnumbered by "ugly Americans".

So, while I appreciate your peace-keeping intentions let's get to the root of the problem and say we are going to discuss principles, and the theatrics of bringing up nationality and victimhood have no place in a principled discussion where the goal should not be winning debate points but arriving at a shared understanding of the truth.
Said much more eloquently that I would could have, totally agree.

Obiwan
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Obiwan »

This issue to me is like Tithing and other charitable giving....

We should use our best judgment and ability. Obviously someone who is legitimately poor would have a need. Where the real problem comes in is the Liberal "Entitlement Mentality".

We should essentially follow the Churches model. Take the help as we really need and do our best to get out of needing that help, and to only use it temporarily. Take for example retired people..... I think that those who can't no longer provide for themselves should get maybe 5 years of social security and then be taken care of by family, and only given assistance as really needed such as health costs etc. beyond family members ability. If there is no family, then I can understand further legit help.

The system is breaking because "everyone" is being on the dole. It effects every aspect of society. For example, the retired used to be the baby sitters if both parents had to work, or otherwise, helping with the household. Anyway...

freedomforall
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by freedomforall »

Obiwan wrote:I think that those who can't no longer provide for themselves should get maybe 5 years of social security and then be taken care of by family,
Reality is only unrealized fantasy. This proposed idea looks good on paper but has no bearing in real life in today's environment. Kids don't always have a big enough living space for parents; not every state allows for grandpa and grandma living in a trailer in the backyard of one of their childrens homes. A good number of people rent nowadays, not allowing mom and pop to join in. Sometimes one or both parents were jerks to their kids, and the kids say "no way will they live with us."

I see things this way when it comes to getting money from gov. Everything we now have, everything we want to have, everything we get in way of benefit...is God's. My bishop does not refuse my tithing because I'm on Social Security and get VA benees. But, if I were to win a lottery or win big bucks in some Casino...ten percent of that is refused instantly. So I think this is how to gauge what is good and what is not...where does the money come from? I earned SS by working for over 36 years and paying into it. I earned VA benees because I went into the military during the draft. I actively put something into each benefit I receive. Winning money from gambling is not earned, therefore does not qualify as being earned income, worthy to give ten% to the Lord.

Something else to consider. Do bishops excummunicate members that take out a Chapter Thirteen? No, and why not? Afterall, when completed a lot of creditors do get cheated out of their money. So whose money is it, really?

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Do bishops excummunicate members that take out a Chapter Thirteen? No, and why not?
Precedent for one given that Joseph Smith filed along with others of the Kirtland Safety Society days. Of course there is Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, of the U.S. Constitution as well...

Read John Locke on private property rights and then ask what the price is that someone should have to pay for locking up all of the worlds natural resources and eliminating the ability for someone to lift themselves up by their bootstraps?

Then consider President Kimball:
Despite hard times caused by the Great Depression, Kimball said he would set up a peanut stand before he would become another person's employee again.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/peop ... mball.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"They" have deliberately acted to secure the natural resources of the whole world and lock them up, to be doled out according to the Iron or subsistence law of wages. Read D&C 49:16-21, and then 59:18-21. Notice the Lord says that the natural resources are not to be used for extortion. What could He mean by that?

Start looking at all the subsidies American Life is built upon. Start looking at all the things done by Federal Grant or matching funds, by loopholes, by hook and crook. The web is complex and attached to every facet of western life. Pretty silly then to point fingers at anyone but the spiders.

We know who has control now:
“Satan has control now.
No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States...it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith (1876-1972), Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, pp. 314-315)
When everyone has a fair shot at the resources from which to exalt themselves, then we can start pointing fingers again... Until then lets keep our focus on the real cause of human inequity.

Obiwan
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Obiwan »

freedomfighter wrote:
Obiwan wrote:I think that those who can't no longer provide for themselves should get maybe 5 years of social security and then be taken care of by family,
Reality is only unrealized fantasy. This proposed idea looks good on paper but has no bearing in real life in today's environment. Kids don't always have a big enough living space for parents; not every state allows for grandpa and grandma living in a trailer in the backyard of one of their childrens homes. A good number of people rent nowadays, not allowing mom and pop to join in. Sometimes one or both parents were jerks to their kids, and the kids say "no way will they live with us."
Simply make it LAW and that would solve the problem.... I already gave indication that there could be "exceptions to the rule". Well, then in that case, proper judgment can be made and support given. This used to be common sense before.... Since society has gotten away from common sense, laws need to be made (where required and wisely) in order to make society still function properly. Lot's of things need to change, because as you've said, society has changed.
I see things this way when it comes to getting money from gov. Everything we now have, everything we want to have, everything we get in way of benefit...is God's. My bishop does not refuse my tithing because I'm on Social Security and get VA benees. But, if I were to win a lottery or win big bucks in some Casino...ten percent of that is refused instantly. So I think this is how to gauge what is good and what is not...where does the money come from? I earned SS by working for over 36 years and paying into it. I earned VA benees because I went into the military during the draft. I actively put something into each benefit I receive. Winning money from gambling is not earned, therefore does not qualify as being earned income, worthy to give ten% to the Lord.
Do what you wish.... Between you and the Lord.
Something else to consider. Do bishops excummunicate members that take out a Chapter Thirteen? No, and why not? Afterall, when completed a lot of creditors do get cheated out of their money. So whose money is it, really?
Actually, if you actually knew your scriptures you would know that there is a scriptural precedence for the "forgiving of dept".
Where do you think most Law came from??? The Lord allows for "honest mistakes".... That's why the Church doesn't excommunicate people for bankruptcy. I frankly wish the Church would excommunicate spouses for unjustly and for no good reason leaving their spouse. Of course, they likely would have had she remained in town, especially given her adultery's. :( Anyway.....

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Randy
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by Randy »

Both my wife and I are medically disabled and living on government disability supplemental income. We work with Federal Housing for the reduction of our rent. We receive both Medicaid and Food Stamps. Having lived within this system for several years I can testify that the system was designed to keep you a subservient slave. Any effort to try and better yourself and you are punished severely. While this system has provided us with food, shelter, and a very basic income for years, both my wife and I hate it. In exchange for keeping you alive it takes away your dignity and self respect.

Having said that we are now in the process of living this system behind. I cannot go into details but we will be forming a corporation and making lots of money. I have used this system of enslavement to pioneer a completely new and non-polluting extraction method for the recovery of strategic metals that are abundant in our area. This is a completely zero discharge method. It has taken five years to develop.

We want our own property where we can farm and raise animals. We are seeking a life of self reliance. I look forward to the day when I can walk into the Social Services and say, "Kiss my big white -- smiley face."

Randy in Gunnison

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Good for you Randy! I think your experience mirrors the intent of the Churches welfare program in that the point is to get you on the path to self sufficiency whether by time and reflection (who can say that it was not by work that you developed this system?). I agree that the governments system is designed to enslave, but satan often suffers the law of unintended consequences when those that dig the pit fill it.

In the end I think the take home lesson is that whatever increases your families freedom is good, and that which limits it is inadvisable as the costs will come to bear eventually.

I suspect that the forced "idleness" pressed you to work in a different way that was work in itself. Aligning yourself with inspiration enables the creative mind. That process requires reflection and meditation. Good luck with the venture and if it doesn't work you can patent double sided vice grips (that clamp on both ends so you can secure your workpiece and the vice grips to a table etc...) They should, of course swivel in the middle, under tension to enable positioning the workpiece. That ought to make you a cool million provided nobody has no patented it yet. (a quick google search yielded nothing)

freedomforall
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Re: Is it morally right to accept government benefits?

Post by freedomforall »

Randy wrote:Both my wife and I are medically disabled and living on government disability supplemental income. We work with Federal Housing for the reduction of our rent. We receive both Medicaid and Food Stamps. Having lived within this system for several years I can testify that the system was designed to keep you a subservient slave. Any effort to try and better yourself and you are punished severely. While this system has provided us with food, shelter, and a very basic income for years, both my wife and I hate it. In exchange for keeping you alive it takes away your dignity and self respect.

Having said that we are now in the process of living this system behind. I cannot go into details but we will be forming a corporation and making lots of money. I have used this system of enslavement to pioneer a completely new and non-polluting extraction method for the recovery of strategic metals that are abundant in our area. This is a completely zero discharge method. It has taken five years to develop.

We want our own property where we can farm and raise animals. We are seeking a life of self reliance. I look forward to the day when I can walk into the Social Services and say, "Kiss my big white -- smiley face."

Randy in Gunnison
After retiring I tried a nation wide MLM because I didn't want to rely on benefits, but as time went by I realized I didn't have the physical ability nor stamina to keep going so I gave it up. I also tried my hand at being a mortgage loan officer, but my mental deficiencies didn't allow me to do the job at top notch level (too slow). But at least I gave it a shot. And I think that alone has merit.

Also I have, in my twenty-four hour spare time, drafted several housing floor plans that I have no clue as to how to market. If I could get a builder interested, who knows?

Just for fun, I have an idea for anyone taking an interest. Get a bunch of used weather balloons, fill them with helium and set up a booth somewhere. With a few child safety belts that allow balloon attachment, tether lines and good weather, kids up to about 100 pds could bob around and maybe jump up to twenty feet in the air with a safety tether line attached as well. I probably didn't word this right but you get the idea.

A person could charge for ten minute intervals or up to an hour depending on how much the parents are willing to spend.

Anyway, good luck on your endeavors.

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picknroll6
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Why Welfare is Evil

Post by picknroll6 »

My Quick Draft

It looks like I'm a late comer to this subject. I'm glad it's here and I'm going to comb through this stuff. It is one thing to accept something as right or wrong, however, I believe it is another thing entirely to attack or defend a certain position. Honestly tell me if I am on the right track with my argument. Remember, this is only off the top of my head. I thought it better to be attacked so I can see the loopholes before I finish the argument, thinking it was a masterpiece! Is the same principle being violated or am I off-base.

A. Curtis

--------------
Why Welfare is Evil.

Government forced welfare automatically causes the greater population to "trample under their feet and smite and rend and turn their backs upon the poor". This happens naturally because people discharge their obligation to help individuals in their community because the government “will take care of them” so there is “no need for us”. Remember, the government has nothing except what it takes from its citizens, so if it does a favor for one individual it must take from another (by force) to do it. Welfare MUST be given spontaneously and by individual(s) choice, and in no other way.

This process is what I call forced participation; others call it redistribution of wealth. Either way when this practice becomes an accepted responsibility of our government we know we are "in an awful state, and ripening for everlasting destruction". Is this principle so hard to understand? Look at the same principle in action in the realm of the public school system. This is another role of government that the majority of the population not only expects, but demands from its master. This is so evil because everyone pays into the pot (against their consent) and not all reap the benefits. That is, if there were any benefits to reap. This is another sad violation of the constitution. When you hand power over on a silver platter it is not a natural course that the taste will be delicious and encourages the recipient(s) to seek for more and more? When the majority of the population falsely understands this as an acceptable role of government invariably many other unchecked powers will be assumed.

Government is a juggernaut and feasts off ignorance. Is this not our awful situation? The population can only prevent this by remembering history and passing that knowledge down to their children. When government is smothered, or in other words, prevented from expanding the people will remain free and prosperous.

Hel 6:39-40
Last edited by picknroll6 on May 11th, 2011, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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picknroll6
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Re: Why Welfare is Evil

Post by picknroll6 »

JulesGP wrote:This thread has a lot of information on the topic: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=16054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I hate double threads... how do I close this one and add it to that one?

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ChelC
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Re: Why Welfare is Evil

Post by ChelC »

I suggest reading the "Gullible Gulls" talk and focus on why this is ultimately not a boon to the "beneficiaries" of government welfare.

It's true that it is theft, and it's true that it is harmful to recipients, but be careful of getting worked up over it too much. We live at a time where it's virtually impossible to come out with clean hands. We consume subsidized products, utilize the public library, and various other things that are essentially the same. 99.9 percent of us partake in some way, even if our net consumption is lower than our "contribution", we're equally dirty. Be careful about painting welfare recipients as the bad guys... they aren't.

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picknroll6
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Re: Why Welfare is Evil

Post by picknroll6 »

ChelC wrote:I suggest reading the "Gullible Gulls" talk and focus on why this is ultimately not a boon to the "beneficiaries" of government welfare.

It's true that it is theft, and it's true that it is harmful to recipients, but be careful of getting worked up over it too much. We live at a time where it's virtually impossible to come out with clean hands. We consume subsidized products, utilize the public library, and various other things that are essentially the same. 99.9 percent of us partake in some way, even if our net consumption is lower than our "contribution", we're equally dirty. Be careful about painting welfare recipients as the bad guys... they aren't.
Doesn't it make sense that the recipient is none the wiser? We've lost the constitutional education to protect us. This thread is huge. I'm going to have to read through everything and solidify my ideas. Thank you.

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