The Political Measuring Stick

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Teancum-Old
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Re: The Political Measuring Stick

Post by Teancum-Old »

ithink wrote: Nice reference to Skousens book, thank you, I was not aware of what it was saying on interest.
So ithink is not completely PIP after all! :ymparty: Great to see ithink did learn something from this thread after all! Now I wonder if he would give me some training on bookeeping... For the life of me, I cannot understand how an asset can be both a credit and a debit and ...... :))

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Jason
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Re: The Political Measuring Stick

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Teancum wrote:
ithink wrote: Nice reference to Skousens book, thank you, I was not aware of what it was saying on interest.
So ithink is not completely PIP after all! :ymparty: Great to see ithink did learn something from this thread after all! Now I wonder if he would give me some training on bookeeping... For the life of me, I cannot understand how an asset can be both a credit and a debit and ...... :))
Debit is where the cash is.....Credit is where the cash came from.

You buy a house with a loan.....the value of the house is a debit on the balance sheet......and the value of the loan is a credit. The cash is tied up in the house (debit) and you obtained the cash via the loan (credit).

Debit card - payment via money in the bank.
Credit card - payment via money from a loan.

Its not entirely perfect (receivables/payables) but at least that's what helped me keep it all straight when I started down this path.....

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ithink
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Re: The Political Measuring Stick

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For Teancum.

If anyone can improve on my bookkeeping, or if anyone is an accountant or trained in economics, feel free to work on that speadsheet. I received an A in accounting in school years ago, but that was a long time ago.

A credit on a liability account actually increases that account, while a credit on an asset account increases it. Debits and credits increase the account or decrease the account they are in depending on what type of account they are. Think of your credit card. When you deposit money to it, the balance goes down because it is a liability.

So right, this is not longer grade 5 math.

Yes, you can work and create wealth with your labor, but unless you convert that wealth into dollars, you're stuck. And you can't get dollars without a loan. And as soon as there is one loan -- even one single loan with interest, it is impossible to pay off unless the banker starts taking goods in kind as payment, but they currently don't.

The only reason the church can pay anything in cash is because other people have taken out loans. It wasn't always like that though. What is now the Joseph Smith memorial building used to be the Hotel Utah, and that was paid off with a loan from NYC for a million dollars. The loan itself was paid off by putting a bar in the basement of that building -- apparently the largest in the west. And the proceeds from that drinking establishment were used to pay off that loan.

Compound interest is one of the devil's most powerful instruments. It's devastating influence will one day be made known to us all, and if I can't do that for you today, someone else who is more eloquent will do so eventually, either in this life or the next.

I can't prove anything to you Teacncum. I've given you answers, if you want to prove them or even disprove them, you are welcome to do so. Concerning the this issue of compound interest though, you would do well to know that the proof that the system is terminal has been public for at least 25 years, and has not been disproven.

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ithink
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Re: The Political Measuring Stick

Post by ithink »

Mummy wrote:
Teancum wrote:
ithink wrote: Nice reference to Skousens book, thank you, I was not aware of what it was saying on interest.
So ithink is not completely PIP after all! :ymparty: Great to see ithink did learn something from this thread after all! Now I wonder if he would give me some training on bookeeping... For the life of me, I cannot understand how an asset can be both a credit and a debit and ...... :))
Debit is where the cash is.....Credit is where the cash came from.

You buy a house with a loan.....the value of the house is a debit on the balance sheet......and the value of the loan is a credit. The cash is tied up in the house (debit) and you obtained the cash via the loan (credit).

Debit card - payment via money in the bank.
Credit card - payment via money from a loan.

Its not entirely perfect (receivables/payables) but at least that's what helped me keep it all straight when I started down this path.....
Right. If you also look closely at the spreadsheet, you'll see that the bank ends up with a transfer of the original $100K promissory note with no corresponding entry in the ledger of the borrower. This is where the money exchange fraud takes place originally, because at the end the bank should return your promissory note back to you UNMARKED. How is this? Imagine you come to me to borrow $5000. I say yes, but i need collateral. I want your truck. As soon as you disappear out of sight, I sell your truck and give the $5000 fom the sale back to you as the loan. After the loan is paid back to me, you will naturally ask for your truck back but as we can see, I sold it to turn out the loan. Same as the bank, they "sell" your promissory note, but it's not theirs to sell. Like the truck, it's yours. Ask them if they should not give it back to you unaltered.

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Teancum-Old
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Location: San Diego, CA

Re: The Political Measuring Stick

Post by Teancum-Old »

ithink wrote:For Teancum.

If anyone can improve on my bookkeeping, or if anyone is an accountant or trained in economics, feel free to work on that speadsheet. I received an A in accounting in school years ago, but that was a long time ago.

A credit on a liability account actually increases that account, while a credit on an asset account increases it. Debits and credits increase the account or decrease the account they are in depending on what type of account they are. Think of your credit card. When you deposit money to it, the balance goes down because it is a liability.

So right, this is not longer grade 5 math. Good, the truth comes out. This is accounting not grade 5 math.

Yes, you can work and create wealth with your labor, but unless you convert that wealth into dollars, you're stuck. And you can't get dollars without a loan. This is where I take issue. I can trade (yes barter) with anyone who wants to deal with me. This may be living on the moon-type economics but it was practiced before here on earth. Gold and silver could also be used by their weight so no dollars would be necessary, therefore no loan. Again, my labor creates wealth. I can dig up gold/silver/etc, use it to buy tools, to build a raft, rent it out, build another raft with my gold/silver/etc, and use my profits to loan some gold/silver/etc with INTEREST for someone else to build their own raft. No loan with fiat money necessary for me to get started though. And as soon as there is one loan -- even one single loan with interest, it is impossible to pay off unless the banker starts taking goods in kind as payment, but they currently don't.

The only reason the church can pay anything in cash is because other people have taken out loans. It wasn't always like that though. What is now the Joseph Smith memorial building used to be the Hotel Utah, and that was paid off with a loan from NYC for a million dollars. The loan itself was paid off by putting a bar in the basement of that building -- apparently the largest in the west. And the proceeds from that drinking establishment were used to pay off that loan. I have heard about this. I believe the Church was forced into that position due to its huge losses/debt incurred trying to remain faithful to plural marriage. Don't know much about the drinking establishment and how that was exactly put into place though.

Compound interest is one of the devil's most powerful instruments. It's devastating influence will one day be made known to us all, and if I can't do that for you today, someone else who is more eloquent will do so eventually, either in this life or the next. You have not convinced me yet, and if it takes an accountant to figure out the logic, then it may take me long time to come over to your side on this issue. For the life of me, I don't know if I ever will be to keep debit/credits straight... Accounting seems so subjective.

I can't prove anything to you Teacncum. I've given you answers, your claims about Abraham and interest, or the Kirtland Bank have come without any evidence to support; your only real answer was a spreadsheet which was based completely on accountant level math/vocabulary (not grade 5 math as you always asserted) if you want to prove them or even disprove them, you are welcome to do so. If I were an accountant; for now I am just a lowly engineer. Concerning the this issue of compound interest though, you would do well to know that the proof that the system is terminal has been public for at least 25 years, and has not been disproven. We all agree the system is terminal and that the banking industry is completely corrupt and rotten to the core. We are on the same page there! At the heart of the issue is interest. Is it inherently evil, thereby clearly the culprit of our terminal economic situation or is interest only a tool that can be (and has been) used in evil ways, where the real culprits are corrupt individuals? I believe it is the latter. On this we can agree to disagree until I learn accounting or you can prove your case clearly to non-accountants.

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ithink
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Re: The Political Measuring Stick

Post by ithink »

Teancum wrote:
ithink wrote:For Teancum.

If anyone can improve on my bookkeeping, or if anyone is an accountant or trained in economics, feel free to work on that speadsheet. I received an A in accounting in school years ago, but that was a long time ago.

A credit on a liability account actually increases that account, while a credit on an asset account increases it. Debits and credits increase the account or decrease the account they are in depending on what type of account they are. Think of your credit card. When you deposit money to it, the balance goes down because it is a liability.

So right, this is not longer grade 5 math. Good, the truth comes out. This is accounting not grade 5 math.

Yes, you can work and create wealth with your labor, but unless you convert that wealth into dollars, you're stuck. And you can't get dollars without a loan. This is where I take issue. I can trade (yes barter) with anyone who wants to deal with me. This may be living on the moon-type economics but it was practiced before here on earth. Gold and silver could also be used by their weight so no dollars would be necessary, therefore no loan. Again, my labor creates wealth. I can dig up gold/silver/etc, use it to buy tools, to build a raft, rent it out, build another raft with my gold/silver/etc, and use my profits to loan some gold/silver/etc with INTEREST for someone else to build their own raft. No loan with fiat money necessary for me to get started though. And as soon as there is one loan -- even one single loan with interest, it is impossible to pay off unless the banker starts taking goods in kind as payment, but they currently don't.

The only reason the church can pay anything in cash is because other people have taken out loans. It wasn't always like that though. What is now the Joseph Smith memorial building used to be the Hotel Utah, and that was paid off with a loan from NYC for a million dollars. The loan itself was paid off by putting a bar in the basement of that building -- apparently the largest in the west. And the proceeds from that drinking establishment were used to pay off that loan. I have heard about this. I believe the Church was forced into that position due to its huge losses/debt incurred trying to remain faithful to plural marriage. Don't know much about the drinking establishment and how that was exactly put into place though.

Compound interest is one of the devil's most powerful instruments. It's devastating influence will one day be made known to us all, and if I can't do that for you today, someone else who is more eloquent will do so eventually, either in this life or the next. You have not convinced me yet, and if it takes an accountant to figure out the logic, then it may take me long time to come over to your side on this issue. For the life of me, I don't know if I ever will be to keep debit/credits straight... Accounting seems so subjective.

I can't prove anything to you Teacncum. I've given you answers, your claims about Abraham and interest, or the Kirtland Bank have come without any evidence to support; your only real answer was a spreadsheet which was based completely on accountant level math/vocabulary (not grade 5 math as you always asserted) if you want to prove them or even disprove them, you are welcome to do so. If I were an accountant; for now I am just a lowly engineer. Concerning the this issue of compound interest though, you would do well to know that the proof that the system is terminal has been public for at least 25 years, and has not been disproven. We all agree the system is terminal and that the banking industry is completely corrupt and rotten to the core. We are on the same page there! At the heart of the issue is interest. Is it inherently evil, thereby clearly the culprit of our terminal economic situation or is interest only a tool that can be (and has been) used in evil ways, where the real culprits are corrupt individuals? I believe it is the latter. On this we can agree to disagree until I learn accounting or you can prove your case clearly to non-accountants.
We're covering the same ground here again, maybe it's the length of this hijacked thread. Alas.

1. Dig all of the gold out of the ground you wish, but if you can't convert it to paper money, you can't buy milk and bread, and most importantly you can't pay taxes. And of course, all paper money is issued as debt instruments BEARING INTEREST. Needless to say all gold backed currency is BEARING INTEREST also, so you're still screwed.

2. Accounting may be subjective, but bookkeeping is not. It is totally 100% objective.

3. At it's heart, it's grade 5 math.
TRUE 1 + 1 = 2.
TRUE 1 + (1*1.03% interest) <> 2.

Can you disprove that? If not, you've uncovered the root of the problem.

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