If you were on unemployment....

[Original_Intent]

would you take a job that paid less than your unemployment benefits?

Not wanting to provide a forum for people to get on their Rameumptom...I know what the "Sunday School" answer is - my question is would you really do it? I don't believe I would.

Not really asking to be told what a bad person I am. I would be interested in if anyone has ACTUALLY done it - non hypothetical but has actually followed thru.

[Jason]

would you take a job that paid less than your unemployment benefits?

Not wanting to provide a forum for people to get on their Rameumptom...I know what the "Sunday School" answer is - my question is would you really do it? I don't believe I would.

Not really asking to be told what a bad person I am. I would be interested in if anyone has ACTUALLY done it - non hypothetical but has actually followed thru.

the job offer I got I accepted! ...but it was far more than unemployment (which at most is 40-60% of previous wages). did turn down a $10/hr job assisting the local greenhouse guy....but that was prior to going on unemployment.....and in the process of looking at job as cfo of the local hospital (in a small town where word would have quickly spread).

[loquaciousmomma]

That's a very good question!

In principal, doing all you can for yourself and not relying on government when you can work is our responsibility. Nevertheless, wouldn't taking a job paying less than unemployment leave you needing help anyway? I guess it would depend on your unique situation...

My husband took many jobs that paid less than unemployment that year, though he was able to continue receiving benefits, reduced according to what he was earning, of course.

So, come to think of it, I would take a job that earned less than unemployment, because I would probably continue to receive unemployment to make up the difference.

This, in my opinion, meets the test of self-reliance, as you are doing all that you can do at the time.

The only downside is a limited amount of time for a job search.

[AussieOi]

no. yes. maybe

its easier to get a job with a job. transfer, promotion

how could someone offer such a low pay? its not a job then, its slavery, which id dehumanising.

only very temporarily- and with a specific objective in mind.

[Col. Flagg]

no. yes. maybe

its easier to get a job with a job. transfer, promotion

how could someone offer such a low pay? its not a job then, its slavery, which id dehumanising.

only very temporarily- and with a specific objective in mind.

Utah is #40 in the nation in salaries/wages paid to employees. That speaks volumes to me in a state where the LDS church reigns supreme, is strong and has lots of influence and say in local politics/business. In Utah County, where I live, a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience might get you $35,000 per year if you're lucky. Pathetic. When I got laid off in January, 2001 from a job I had in Provo, I was unemployed for 6 months (got hit by the .com bubble) and went from $30,000 per year to weekly unemployment checks of $355.00 ($17,000 per year equivalent). Wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. I like what Aussie said above - we essentially have slave wages here in Utah for most people - is it any wonder both Mom & Dad have to work just to pay the bills (forget about discretionary income)? Many Utah companies/businesses have profits in the millions and yet have no trouble paying employees a monthly wage that barely covers some mortgage payments. Even more upsetting is how some Stakes want their members to increase their tithes and offerings while members are losing their jobs in an already wage-suppressed state/area. In many regards, church leadership (on the local levels) need to get a grip on reality and recognize what sort of circumstances members are facing in the real world.

[Squally]

That's a very good question!

In principal, doing all you can for yourself and not relying on government when you can work is our responsibility. Nevertheless, wouldn't taking a job paying less than unemployment leave you needing help anyway? I guess it would depend on your unique situation...

My husband took many jobs that paid less than unemployment that year, though he was able to continue receiving benefits, reduced according to what he was earning, of course.

So, come to think of it, I would take a job that earned less than unemployment, because I would probably continue to receive unemployment to make up the difference.

This, in my opinion, meets the test of self-reliance, as you are doing all that you can do at the time.

The only downside is a limited amount of time for a job search.

unemployment has no social security medicare taxes taken out. So in reality yo still were getting a little less from the work.

[loquaciousmomma]

You make a good point Squally. It wasn't reduced by exactly what he earned, though. There was some threshold he had to meet before they started taking money out, at least here in Iowa. He only lost an amount maybe equal to a fourth of the check, because he was earning such a low wage in comparison to what he was earning to begin with.

[shadow]

Many Utah companies/businesses have profits in the millions and yet have no trouble paying employees a monthly wage that barely covers some mortgage payments. Even more upsetting is how some Stakes want their members to increase their tithes and offerings while members are losing their jobs in an already wage-suppressed state/area. In many regards, church leadership (on the local levels) need to get a grip on reality and recognize what sort of circumstances members are facing in the real world.

Generally speaking, which came first, the low wages or the mortgage?
And church leadership know people are struggling, that's why they ask those who can to increase their offerings .
"Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of Heaven"

[AussieOi]

And church leadership know people are struggling, that's why they ask those who can to increase their offerings .
"Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of Heaven"

that is perfectly acceptable, even though the reality of the situation cannot be neglected
ie in a ward in a depressed community like Lehi where everyone is a member, how are all of the members going to be blessed? its simple numbers
10 people for 8 jobs do the math
if they want to ply the guilt game "god will bless you if you give MORE" (as in "well, the try me and see if i will not pour out " promise of tithing didn'tcome good) thats all well and fine, but as long as THEY open their storehouses and give is ALL back to the longsuffering people who excersized their faith, i can't complain

should the church itself not practice "faith" by giving it all away to those who are in need? you dont think it can practice what we preach in that regard?

Perhaps one way the church can help the faith of these members get rewarded is by undertaking a "don't oppress your hireling" campaign in regards to Salaries?

And not necessarily shaming them but certainly removing reference to the wealthy from our buildings (ie the J Willard Marriott BYU Business Centre) that could have a positive impact. Maybe an greater emphasis of King Benjamins farewell speech...........god only blesses us with abundance so that we can use it to bless the lives of others....

[durangout]

no. yes. maybe

its easier to get a job with a job. transfer, promotion

how could someone offer such a low pay? its not a job then, its slavery, which id dehumanising.

only very temporarily- and with a specific objective in mind.

Utah is #40 in the nation in salaries/wages paid to employees. That speaks volumes to me in a state where the LDS church reigns supreme, is strong and has lots of influence and say in local politics/business. In Utah County, where I live, a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience might get you $35,000 per year if you're lucky. Pathetic. When I got laid off in January, 2001 from a job I had in Provo, I was unemployed for 6 months (got hit by the .com bubble) and went from $30,000 per year to weekly unemployment checks of $355.00 ($17,000 per year equivalent). Wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. I like what Aussie said above - we essentially have slave wages here in Utah for most people - is it any wonder both Mom & Dad have to work just to pay the bills (forget about discretionary income)? Many Utah companies/businesses have profits in the millions and yet have no trouble paying employees a monthly wage that barely covers some mortgage payments. Even more upsetting is how some Stakes want their members to increase their tithes and offerings while members are losing their jobs in an already wage-suppressed state/area. In many regards, church leadership (on the local levels) need to get a grip on reality and recognize what sort of circumstances members are facing in the real world.

The reason wages are so low here is that no Utahites are willing to leave the state to look for work which drives wages down--very simple. My wife has never had to work since we started a family but then again, we live frugaly. It's all about priorities (i.e. which is more important raising your kids or having cell phones, sattelite tv, rvs, 4 wheelers, trips, designer jeans, boob jobs...). to your last point, the usage of fast offering $$ have skyrocketed. It is our responsibility to care for the poor. That was one of the key failing of the Jews in Isiah's time and he has that same condemation for us.

[Mahonri]

I was unemployed for almost a year and never took unemployment, so I didn't have to make that choice.

[Col. Flagg]

I was unemployed for almost a year and never took unemployment, so I didn't have to make that choice.

How did you pay your bills then? Savings? Loans? Family assistance? Ward? A few years ago the U.S. actually had a negative savings rate - in Utah you cannot afford to save because there is nothing to save - it's all you can do to stay above water and the church does/says nothing to scold those who oppress the hireling in his wages around here... nothing.

[AussieOi]

maaaate you are so clever
that is it. live frugally
what Ye say wear sacks and eat mushrooms?no
point in a quality of life huh......just eek out an existence hey
all greedy. so simple.

no. yes. maybe

its easier to get a job with a job. transfer, promotion

how could someone offer such a low pay? its not a job then, its slavery, which id dehumanising.

only very temporarily- and with a specific objective in mind.

Utah is #40 in the nation in salaries/wages paid to employees. That speaks volumes to me in a state where the LDS church reigns supreme, is strong and has lots of influence and say in local politics/business. In Utah County, where I live, a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience might get you $35,000 per year if you're lucky. Pathetic. When I got laid off in January, 2001 from a job I had in Provo, I was unemployed for 6 months (got hit by the .com bubble) and went from $30,000 per year to weekly unemployment checks of $355.00 ($17,000 per year equivalent). Wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. I like what Aussie said above - we essentially have slave wages here in Utah for most people - is it any wonder both Mom & Dad have to work just to pay the bills (forget about discretionary income)? Many Utah companies/businesses have profits in the millions and yet have no trouble paying employees a monthly wage that barely covers some mortgage payments. Even more upsetting is how some Stakes want their members to increase their tithes and offerings while members are losing their jobs in an already wage-suppressed state/area. In many regards, church leadership (on the local levels) need to get a grip on reality and recognize what sort of circumstances members are facing in the real world.

The reason wages are so low here is that no Utahites are willing to leave the state to look for work which drives wages down--very simple. My wife has never had to work since we started a family but then again, we live frugaly. It's all about priorities (i.e. which is more important raising your kids or having cell phones, sattelite tv, rvs, 4 wheelers, trips, designer jeans, boob jobs...). to your last point, the usage of fast offering $$ have skyrocketed. It is our responsibility to care for the poor. That was one of the key failing of the Jews in Isiah's time and he has that same condemation for us.

[Squally]

no. yes. maybe

its easier to get a job with a job. transfer, promotion

how could someone offer such a low pay? its not a job then, its slavery, which id dehumanising.

only very temporarily- and with a specific objective in mind.

Utah is #40 in the nation in salaries/wages paid to employees. That speaks volumes to me in a state where the LDS church reigns supreme, is strong and has lots of influence and say in local politics/business. In Utah County, where I live, a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience might get you $35,000 per year if you're lucky. Pathetic. When I got laid off in January, 2001 from a job I had in Provo, I was unemployed for 6 months (got hit by the .com bubble) and went from $30,000 per year to weekly unemployment checks of $355.00 ($17,000 per year equivalent). Wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. I like what Aussie said above - we essentially have slave wages here in Utah for most people - is it any wonder both Mom & Dad have to work just to pay the bills (forget about discretionary income)? Many Utah companies/businesses have profits in the millions and yet have no trouble paying employees a monthly wage that barely covers some mortgage payments. Even more upsetting is how some Stakes want their members to increase their tithes and offerings while members are losing their jobs in an already wage-suppressed state/area. In many regards, church leadership (on the local levels) need to get a grip on reality and recognize what sort of circumstances members are facing in the real world.

The reason wages are so low here is that no Utahites are willing to leave the state to look for work which drives wages down--very simple. My wife has never had to work since we started a family but then again, we live frugaly. It's all about priorities (i.e. which is more important raising your kids or having cell phones, sattelite tv, rvs, 4 wheelers, trips, designer jeans, boob jobs...). to your last point, the usage of fast offering $$ have skyrocketed. It is our responsibility to care for the poor. That was one of the key failing of the Jews in Isiah's time and he has that same condemation for us.

And no internet or computers too? Oh wait, we already know your answer to that one, you go over to your neighbors to post here.

[pritchet1]

In many instances getting a job requires that you are currently working in a job, so I took the lower-paying job as a strategy to get employed into better circumstances. It got me off the unemployment cheque process and I didn't become a "99er". That inspired strategy worked.

In our Regional Employment meeting Tuesday evening, the topic focussed on the Welfare training pages on LDS.com and ldsjobs.com I mentioned that we have an added benefit being members of the church - and that is in receiving Priesthood blessings to help us achieve the status of "employed". I testify from personal experience that it works. Allow the priesthood blessings to take effect in your life.

It does no good praying for certain blessings, if you don't accept God's blessings through hands put on your head by those who act in His name.

And then get the people network working in Ward Correlation meetings, Ward Welfare meetings, Relief Society and Priesthood Quorums and in utilizing the Ward and Stake Employment Coordinators. Self-employment help is also available if nobody is willing to hire you

Richland WA Stake Employment Secretary

[natasha]

no. yes. maybe

its easier to get a job with a job. transfer, promotion

how could someone offer such a low pay? its not a job then, its slavery, which id dehumanising.

only very temporarily- and with a specific objective in mind.

Utah is #40 in the nation in salaries/wages paid to employees. That speaks volumes to me in a state where the LDS church reigns supreme, is strong and has lots of influence and say in local politics/business. In Utah County, where I live, a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience might get you $35,000 per year if you're lucky. Pathetic. When I got laid off in January, 2001 from a job I had in Provo, I was unemployed for 6 months (got hit by the .com bubble) and went from $30,000 per year to weekly unemployment checks of $355.00 ($17,000 per year equivalent). Wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. I like what Aussie said above - we essentially have slave wages here in Utah for most people - is it any wonder both Mom & Dad have to work just to pay the bills (forget about discretionary income)? Many Utah companies/businesses have profits in the millions and yet have no trouble paying employees a monthly wage that barely covers some mortgage payments. Even more upsetting is how some Stakes want their members to increase their tithes and offerings while members are losing their jobs in an already wage-suppressed state/area. In many regards, church leadership (on the local levels) need to get a grip on reality and recognize what sort of circumstances members are facing in the real world.

The reason wages are so low here is that no Utahites are willing to leave the state to look for work which drives wages down--very simple. My wife has never had to work since we started a family but then again, we live frugaly. It's all about priorities (i.e. which is more important raising your kids or having cell phones, sattelite tv, rvs, 4 wheelers, trips, designer jeans, boob jobs...). to your last point, the usage of fast offering $$ have skyrocketed. It is our responsibility to care for the poor. That was one of the key failing of the Jews in Isiah's time and he has that same condemation for us.

I will never understand people who complain about the wages in a State and choose to stick around and receive those wages. Also..would you please stop being critical of the Church and the Brethren. The Church has always gone above and beyond in caring for people. It is everyone's responsibility in the Church to care for the poor and needy. If you don't have it to give, then don't give and don't feel guilty about it. Do what you can for others! Sometimes that is simply providing a service that that person might normally have to pay for. The assertion regarding why wages are low in Utah is true. And I understand the desire to "stay near family"....but at some point, if you don't like your current situation, then change it. The Church has influence only because of it's members. And I just really love the statement "where the Church reigns supreme"! The Church is only the vehicle by which the Gospel is taught and a necessary vehicle I might add. I believe firmly that local leaders DO have a grip on the situation otherwise they wouldn't ask us to increase our offerings if we can! (Remember the widow's mite?) There are all kinds of things that effect wages and it isn't necessarily that those companies hoard their profits. There might be a few that are guilty of that, I really don't know....haven't done the research on it so won't even speculate. My husband hasn't been fully employed for over a year, but we are managing to make it even if it's barely. Our "plight' is partly our own fault for not heeding some counsel long ago. There are other issues I could go into but it's not completely my story to tell therefore I obstain from telling it. The blame game helps no one. And I also agree with the statement about which came first, the mortgage or the wages. Everything we have, including our wages whether meager or large, belong to the Lord anyway. The Lord will judge our hearts...not whether we increased our offerings. There are some that can and do increase their offerings a great deal because they can. There are those who might choose to increase their offerings just a dollar or two, when they barely can. I have no clue who the "big donors" are in our Ward and I don't need to know. I also don't know who can't give anymore than their tithing or who might be receiving assistance....that, too, I don't need to know. The only thing I can do is concentrate on my own spirit and endeavor to serve.

[Mark]

I was unemployed for almost a year and never took unemployment, so I didn't have to make that choice.

How did you pay your bills then? Savings? Loans? Family assistance? Ward? A few years ago the U.S. actually had a negative savings rate - in Utah you cannot afford to save because there is nothing to save - it's all you can do to stay above water and the church does/says nothing to scold those who oppress the hireling in his wages around here... nothing.

Come on now Col. Do you really think it is the church's responsibility to take care of underpaid employees in the workforce? You have a misdirected sense of frustration here. The church is doing exactly what the church should be doing. Don't try to bring it in on something that it has absolutely no responsibility or stewardship for. How about some good old fashioned personal responsibility and entrepreneurial spirit here?

Let me tell you a quick story. My second daughter has struggled with dyslexia and ADD since she was young. She is now 23 and works for a home alarm company. She sells alarm systems to people all over the country. The dreaded cold call sales job. Well she has been working for them for the last 4 months and she averages over $4000 per month in wages now and her pay is going up about every month. She couldn't put a grammatically correct sentence together on paper if her life depended on it but she consistently sells at least 1 alarm system every day at work. She does not look for excuses on why things are tough for her because of her challenges. She just gets in there and creates the opportunities that are available to anyone who wants to work for them. Just some food for thought.

[shadow]

I'll sing along with you Col.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4HZOm1cyJ4

[Mahonri]

I was unemployed for almost a year and never took unemployment, so I didn't have to make that choice.

How did you pay your bills then? Savings? Loans? Family assistance? Ward? A few years ago the U.S. actually had a negative savings rate - in Utah you cannot afford to save because there is nothing to save - it's all you can do to stay above water and the church does/says nothing to scold those who oppress the hireling in his wages around here... nothing.

Come on now Col. Do you really think it is the church's responsibility to take care of underpaid employees in the workforce? You have a misdirected sense of frustration here. The church is doing exactly what the church should be doing. Don't try to bring it in on something that it has absolutely no responsibility or stewardship for. How about some good old fashioned personal responsibility and entrepreneurial spirit here?

Let me tell you a quick story. My second daughter has struggled with dyslexia and ADD since she was young. She is now 23 and works for a home alarm company. She sells alarm systems to people all over the country. The dreaded cold call sales job. Well she has been working for them for the last 4 months and she averages over $4000 per month in wages now and her pay is going up about every month. She couldn't put a grammatically correct sentence together on paper if her life depended on it but she consistently sells at least 1 alarm system every day at work. She does not look for excuses on why things are tough for her because of her challenges. She just gets in there and creates the opportunities that are available to anyone who wants to work for them. Just some food for thought.

That is awesome Mark!

Col: I had "good" food storage, not MRI's. I wasn't afraid to ask for help when needed face to face to those that could offer it. I worked or offered to work/serve for that which I received. The Lord kept His promise that He would give no commandment except He would provide a way to keep it. I followed the admonition that help was to sustain life, not lifestyle and adjusted my families life style accordingly.

[shadow]

She just gets in there and creates the opportunities that are available to anyone who wants to work for them. Just some food for thought.

We can either act or be acted upon.

[Col. Flagg]

I was unemployed for almost a year and never took unemployment, so I didn't have to make that choice.

How did you pay your bills then? Savings? Loans? Family assistance? Ward? A few years ago the U.S. actually had a negative savings rate - in Utah you cannot afford to save because there is nothing to save - it's all you can do to stay above water and the church does/says nothing to scold those who oppress the hireling in his wages around here... nothing.

Come on now Col. Do you really think it is the church's responsibility to take care of underpaid employees in the workforce? You have a misdirected sense of frustration here. The church is doing exactly what the church should be doing. Don't try to bring it in on something that it has absolutely no responsibility or stewardship for. How about some good old fashioned personal responsibility and entrepreneurial spirit here?

Let me tell you a quick story. My second daughter has struggled with dyslexia and ADD since she was young. She is now 23 and works for a home alarm company. She sells alarm systems to people all over the country. The dreaded cold call sales job. Well she has been working for them for the last 4 months and she averages over $4000 per month in wages now and her pay is going up about every month. She couldn't put a grammatically correct sentence together on paper if her life depended on it but she consistently sells at least 1 alarm system every day at work. She does not look for excuses on why things are tough for her because of her challenges. She just gets in there and creates the opportunities that are available to anyone who wants to work for them. Just some food for thought.

Mark, that's great your daughter is doing well - my hat is off to her. My wife also has dyslexia, so I know what that entails. But here's the thing...

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is exactly what is going on in Utah, but our church leaders have not addressed it at all. Not everyone can be a business owner and make plenty of money for themselves and not everyone has the same financial opportunities. I appreciate your words of wisdom as always, but I think the brethren have an obligation to decry this sort of thing and urge all employers to pay an honest and fair wage to their employees so as not to oppress, especially since money is the #1 source of family problems/contetion and the #1 cause of divorce.

Many employers here in Utah County use the excuse that the reason wages/salaries are not where they should be is because of all the schools/universities around and the fact that college kids will work for beans. I say BS - it's just a reason to engage in cheap labor and Utah County excels at it. You should check all the media with job listings for our area - we're the $10.00/hr. capital of the country! I know some will say 'well, if you don't like what employers are offering in terms of pay, leave the area'. That is easier said than done - you just can't pack up and leave and go elsewhere hoping to find a place where wages are higher and more commensurate with education/experience, especially when you've got a family to take care of.

Also, Mark... I have attempted entrepreneurship and spent money I didn't have developing a website to sell camping, outdoor and emergency supplies/equipment at wholesale prices - even went into the business with two guys who do a local political talk radio show here in Utah County (Liberty Roundtable - both are LDS) and never had any success with it, even with a 60 second ad I wrote which was aired on the station. So it isn't like I haven't tried or worked hard to make a decent living for myself/family. Statistics actually indicate that only 1/10 entrepreneurs succeed.

[Original_Intent]

How did you pay your bills then? Savings? Loans? Family assistance? Ward? A few years ago the U.S. actually had a negative savings rate - in Utah you cannot afford to save because there is nothing to save - it's all you can do to stay above water and the church does/says nothing to scold those who oppress the hireling in his wages around here... nothing.

Come on now Col. Do you really think it is the church's responsibility to take care of underpaid employees in the workforce? You have a misdirected sense of frustration here. The church is doing exactly what the church should be doing. Don't try to bring it in on something that it has absolutely no responsibility or stewardship for. How about some good old fashioned personal responsibility and entrepreneurial spirit here?

Let me tell you a quick story. My second daughter has struggled with dyslexia and ADD since she was young. She is now 23 and works for a home alarm company. She sells alarm systems to people all over the country. The dreaded cold call sales job. Well she has been working for them for the last 4 months and she averages over $4000 per month in wages now and her pay is going up about every month. She couldn't put a grammatically correct sentence together on paper if her life depended on it but she consistently sells at least 1 alarm system every day at work. She does not look for excuses on why things are tough for her because of her challenges. She just gets in there and creates the opportunities that are available to anyone who wants to work for them. Just some food for thought.

Mark, that's great your daughter is doing well - my hat is off to her. My wife also has dyslexia, so I know what that entails. But here's the thing...

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is exactly what is going on in Utah, but our church leaders have not addressed it at all - this is all I am trying to say. I appreciate your words of wisdom as always, but I think the brethren have an obligation to decry this sort of thing, especially since money is the #1 source of family problems.

Maybe we need to experience the bitter so that we may cherish the sweet?

[Mark]

Mark, that's great your daughter is doing well - my hat is off to her. My wife also has dyslexia, so I know what that entails. But here's the thing...

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is exactly what is going on in Utah, but our church leaders have not addressed it at all. Not everyone can be a business owner and make plenty of money for themselves and not everyone has the same financial opportunities. I appreciate your words of wisdom as always, but I think the brethren have an obligation to decry this sort of thing and urge all employers to pay an honest and fair wage to their employees so as not to oppress, especially since money is the #1 source of family problems/contetion and the #1 cause of divorce.

Many employers here in Utah County use the excuse that the reason wages/salaries are not where they should be is because of all the schools/universities around and the fact that college kids will work for beans. I say BS - it's just a reason to engage in cheap labor and Utah County excels at it. You should check all the media with job listings for our area - we're the $10.00/hr. capital of the country! I know some will say 'well, if you don't like what employers are offering in terms of pay, leave the area'. That is easier said than done - you just can't pack up and leave and go elsewhere hoping to find a place where wages are higher and more commensurate with education/experience, especially when you've got a family to take care of.

Since I consider you the son I never had Col. its time for some tough love. I gave you my daughters story for a reason. She had no education or schooling and hasn't even finished high school yet she will make at least 60 grand in a year of selling alarms over the phone. Don't make me call the waaaaaambulance on you.

If you are tired of working for minimal wages then develop some good old fashioned entrepreneurial spirit and change things. There are still many opportunities to better your circumstances here in this land. I determine how much I make based on how hard and smart I want to work. Create some of your own opportunities instead of just relying on some other entrepreneur who has already created his own opportunities. Marketing opportunities exist in tons of different areas. Take the bull by the horns and stop complaining and start exploring.

[Col. Flagg]

Mark, that's great your daughter is doing well - my hat is off to her. My wife also has dyslexia, so I know what that entails. But here's the thing...

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is exactly what is going on in Utah, but our church leaders have not addressed it at all. Not everyone can be a business owner and make plenty of money for themselves and not everyone has the same financial opportunities. I appreciate your words of wisdom as always, but I think the brethren have an obligation to decry this sort of thing and urge all employers to pay an honest and fair wage to their employees so as not to oppress, especially since money is the #1 source of family problems/contetion and the #1 cause of divorce.

Many employers here in Utah County use the excuse that the reason wages/salaries are not where they should be is because of all the schools/universities around and the fact that college kids will work for beans. I say BS - it's just a reason to engage in cheap labor and Utah County excels at it. You should check all the media with job listings for our area - we're the $10.00/hr. capital of the country! I know some will say 'well, if you don't like what employers are offering in terms of pay, leave the area'. That is easier said than done - you just can't pack up and leave and go elsewhere hoping to find a place where wages are higher and more commensurate with education/experience, especially when you've got a family to take care of.

Since I consider you the son I never had Col. its time for some tough love. I gave you my daughters story for a reason. She had no education or schooling and hasn't even finished high school yet she will make at least 60 grand in a year of selling alarms over the phone. Don't make me call the waaaaaambulance on you.

If you are tired of working for minimal wages then develop some good old fashioned entrepreneurial spirit and change things. There are still many opportunities to better your circumstances here in this land. I determine how much I make based on how hard and smart I want to work. Create some of your own opportunities instead of just relying on some other entrepreneur who has already created his own opportunities. Marketing opportunities exist in tons of different areas. Take the bull by the horns and stop complaining and start exploring.

Mark, see my 3rd paragraph added to post above.

[durangout]

The reason wages are so low here is that no Utahites are willing to leave the state to look for work which drives wages down--very simple. My wife has never had to work since we started a family but then again, we live frugaly. It's all about priorities (i.e. which is more important raising your kids or having cell phones, sattelite tv, rvs, 4 wheelers, trips, designer jeans, boob jobs...). to your last point, the usage of fast offering $$ have skyrocketed. It is our responsibility to care for the poor. That was one of the key failing of the Jews in Isiah's time and he has that same condemation for us.

And no internet or computers too? Oh wait, we already know your answer to that one, you go over to your neighbors to post here.

What I meant was if you can't afford to have those things on one income don't have your wife work to pay for non-essentials. And if you can afford them are you doing it to impress the neighbors? (That's why I have all those things ).