If you were on unemployment....

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Look to the Declaration of Independence, "all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

Look to history:
http://www.wvculture.org/history/minewars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeur_d%27 ... 27_dispute

What to do when you travel out West without any money, expenses paid for by the mine, instantly in debt, wages aren't enough to pay for your NEEDS at the company store, work all you can, wages drop and debt grows, you try to organize any way out with others stuck in the trap and are met with armed resistance, murder, reprisals of all kinds legal and illegal.

But of course you're anti-union and you stand on your principles (from your knees).

This happened, this happens.

I stood on my knees to oppose unionization at a former job and won, despite many illegal and unfair labor practices committed by the corporation, despite unfair and illegal violations of immigration laws, safety laws etc... Everyone who worked there literally had the scars to show for it, we even had a name for them. After the union failed, our incentive program was immediately cut and things went downhill quick. I supported collective bargaining after the union failed (thanks in part to my vote). We met with company officials and they laughed at us. We gave them an ultimatum, a very reasonable ultimatum that didn't even address the incentive program, safety violations, illegal hiring practices, or most peoples wages (the only wages addressed were those of people that weren't even there, we stuck our necks out for them without asking for anything for ourselves). They laughed at us and we shut them down. I came back the next working day and the plants were idle. I prepared to leave and my former boss (I had been promoted) told me they fired everyone but me (and that only because I was in transit from my former job). I told him that it likely wouldn't be worth staying and as soon as I could find something else I too would leave.

I applied for every diesel mechanic job anywhere around that region and truck driving as well and nobody would pay me anywhere near what I was worth (clean driving record, all kinds of training and certifications, lot's of raises and promotions, etc...) When I landed that job I never stopped applying elsewhere, for years I hit every possible interview, had a few low ball offers, etc.. but couldn't find anyone that didn't want to take advantage of me. In the end I quit without finding a new job (a deal I had made with the Lord that took a truckload of faith).

I agree with the Declaration of Independence, while sufferable, most people will suffer. Look at our government. We don't overthrow it and it is oppressive and we have discovered a plan to reduce us under absolute despotism, etc... We suffer on with a horrible government that few approve of because we can, because it's sufferable, but that doesn't make it right.

What is the answer to it? One person at a time refusing to participate and instead taking part in something better. And that is exactly how it will happen, it's prophesy. Of course it will have to be facilitated by calamitous events because we won't otherwise do it. But Zion will arise, small at first and isolated in pockets, and as the old ways fail all around and the new but oldest way succeeds it will grow and people will come to it until it fills the whole world.

Women have to work because women went to work and bid up the price of everything. Now the couple that want momma at home have to live as frugal paupers in order to achieve it (unless providence smiles down on them in abundance).

Let's face it, the world does not share our values and their values are monetized in our current economic system. Thus we have to make sacrifices in order to maintain both our standards and our personal finances. For some that means working on Sunday, for others it means the mother and wife working, for others it means the kids go to public schools, it means business trips away from home, it means the vast majority of our awake life away from home, none of which are ideal or comply with our moral and ethical base. We sell out to a degree to succeed. But what if the world shut down on Sunday entirely? What if women didn't work? What if family was an integral part of work, what if schooling was good and local in home school groups or church schools? Is such a reality possible? Have we accepted others morals as the standard that rules our lives in subordination of our values? I think so.

[AussieOi]

post of thecentury. brilliant

hope u r all well.

pm me, where u at now.

[ChelC]

Look to the Declaration of Independence, "all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

Look to history:
http://www.wvculture.org/history/minewars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeur_d%27 ... 27_dispute

What to do when you travel out West without any money, expenses paid for by the mine, instantly in debt, wages aren't enough to pay for your NEEDS at the company store, work all you can, wages drop and debt grows, you try to organize any way out with others stuck in the trap and are met with armed resistance, murder, reprisals of all kinds legal and illegal.

But of course you're anti-union and you stand on your principles (from your knees).

This happened, this happens.

I stood on my knees to oppose unionization at a former job and won, despite many illegal and unfair labor practices committed by the corporation, despite unfair and illegal violations of immigration laws, safety laws etc... Everyone who worked there literally had the scars to show for it, we even had a name for them. After the union failed, our incentive program was immediately cut and things went downhill quick. I supported collective bargaining after the union failed (thanks in part to my vote). We met with company officials and they laughed at us. We gave them an ultimatum, a very reasonable ultimatum that didn't even address the incentive program, safety violations, illegal hiring practices, or most peoples wages (the only wages addressed were those of people that weren't even there, we stuck our necks out for them without asking for anything for ourselves). They laughed at us and we shut them down. I came back the next working day and the plants were idle. I prepared to leave and my former boss (I had been promoted) told me they fired everyone but me (and that only because I was in transit from my former job). I told him that it likely wouldn't be worth staying and as soon as I could find something else I too would leave.

I applied for every diesel mechanic job anywhere around that region and truck driving as well and nobody would pay me anywhere near what I was worth (clean driving record, all kinds of training and certifications, lot's of raises and promotions, etc...) When I landed that job I never stopped applying elsewhere, for years I hit every possible interview, had a few low ball offers, etc.. but couldn't find anyone that didn't want to take advantage of me. In the end I quit without finding a new job (a deal I had made with the Lord that took a truckload of faith).

I agree with the Declaration of Independence, while sufferable, most people will suffer. Look at our government. We don't overthrow it and it is oppressive and we have discovered a plan to reduce us under absolute despotism, etc... We suffer on with a horrible government that few approve of because we can, because it's sufferable, but that doesn't make it right.

What is the answer to it? One person at a time refusing to participate and instead taking part in something better. And that is exactly how it will happen, it's prophesy. Of course it will have to be facilitated by calamitous events because we won't otherwise do it. But Zion will arise, small at first and isolated in pockets, and as the old ways fail all around and the new but oldest way succeeds it will grow and people will come to it until it fills the whole world.

Women have to work because women went to work and bid up the price of everything. Now the couple that want momma at home have to live as frugal paupers in order to achieve it (unless providence smiles down on them in abundance).

Let's face it, the world does not share our values and their values are monetized in our current economic system. Thus we have to make sacrifices in order to maintain both our standards and our personal finances. For some that means working on Sunday, for others it means the mother and wife working, for others it means the kids go to public schools, it means business trips away from home, it means the vast majority of our awake life away from home, none of which are ideal or comply with our moral and ethical base. We sell out to a degree to succeed. But what if the world shut down on Sunday entirely? What if women didn't work? What if family was an integral part of work, what if schooling was good and local in home school groups or church schools? Is such a reality possible? Have we accepted others morals as the standard that rules our lives in subordination of our values? I think so.

I was forced to accept the reality of this when arguing with someone about a program (can't remember which, there are so many). I realized that I was using the library system... something easily remedied if I want to spend several hundred dollars a year on books. The point is that I came to the reality that I participate in the dole in more ways than I realized. It's extremely difficult to get around it. Extremely.

We've made some large sacrifices in the past to keep me home with the kids. For a few years it meant that my everyday wardrobe consisted of two decent pairs of jeans and three or four $3 walmart shirts. I had a couple old Sunday jumpers and heaven forbid I got a run in my nylons (in fact I think that's why I hardly wear nylons still, because I ran out then).

We are more comfortable now, we have been very lucky and very blessed.

The divide on the thread here is a little bit funny. All of us agree that the dole is evil. It causes dependence. It causes a degradation of families. We all believe that... but for some reason, those of us who've survived not participating in the dole don't want to accept that it's becoming less possible... that what we predicted would happen is happening to those all around us and not only to lazy slobs.

[ChelC]

I would also like to add that we still live in a place where it is more likely than not that you will survive and do okay for yourself. Our opportunities are on the decline, but there are still many to be had. I can't remember our time in Guatemala and feel too terrible... but I do, because their present is our future if we do not change. You can make it there, sure. You just have to figure out how to deal with starvation to make the necessary sacrifices.

[Original_Intent]

Chelc,

The thing is, the concept of a public library is very workable. The problem with the current system is that is is paid for from withheld income.

You say you could stop participating for the cost of a few hundred dollars in books a year. Well, what if everyone in your ward did that but instead of each of you buying your own copy of books, you all agreed to just one or two copies and they be shared among the community? What if it stake did it? Your entire city? Suddenly you have a public library again, but operated much more cheaply and based on voluntary contributions. Maybe instead of paid staff, each person who wanted to use the library worked a four hour shift once every 5 years? Or if it was determined that having a staff was more efficient, figure out how much it cost to operate on an annual basis and charge a fee from patrons?

Now the initial response is "That would cost me more." No actually the cost would probably be lower - you would possibly pay more for your library "privileges" but you would cease paying, thru taxes, for dozens of other services that you do not use. If the vase majority of "public services" were set up along voluntary, co-operative lines we would get rid of a good many of our problems, I think.

[NoGreaterLove]

Col, I hope I'm not pilng on, but you seem to have a misunderstanding of basic Economics. Were are not slaves. We don't have to work for anybody we don't want to. Most people will work fo the person that gives them the best job for the best price. If an employer doesn't do that, they don't get the best employees. If employees demand more money than their value, you get unemployment.

I work in manufacturing. there are 3 major reason's why our manufacturing jobs are leaving this country;
1) Regulations and litigation (Labor and environmental)
2) High Corporate taxes
3) High wages

Why do the states that have laws requiring high levels of pay have the highest unemployment?

In a free country, an employer has a very limited capability abuse the hirling, because the free man can choose to leave. It is in socialist utopias like Cuba and North Korea where the hirling has no choices and can easily be abused by the employer... who is ... oh yea... the government

Regards,

George Clay

I believe that a man should be able to earn enough of an income to comfortably support his family without his wife working. Any pay less than this is opressing the hireling in his wages.

[Original_Intent]

This article by the creator of "Dilbert" was excellent, funny, and applicable.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

Here are the first few paragraphs:

One of my earliest childhood jobs involved shoveling manure at my uncle's dairy farm in upstate New York. Things were going well until my uncle explained that no matter how well I performed, I would never be promoted to farmer. Or even cow. I had hit the manure ceiling.

I consider that experience my first economic stimulus package—the unwelcome realization that my current job was a dead end. While my classmates were building snowmen with carrot noses (mostly the girls) and carrot genitalia (mostly the boys), I started to do some serious career planning about how to get out of the fecal relocation profession and into the warm embrace of a loving corporation. I studied hard, and I earned money for college by mowing lawns, shoveling snow, shoveling even more manure, and (my personal favorite) shoveling frozen manure covered with snow. I saved my meager funds, and with the help of my parents, who both took extra jobs, plus a few scholarships, I clawed my way into college.

Years later, my dream came true. I got a job with a large bank, and I never again needed to shovel manure. Corporations use something called PowerPoint instead. Thanks to my farm training, I was so good at designing PowerPoint slides that my coworkers called me "The Natural." Jaws dropped when I introduced my signature move: the frozen PowerPoint slide with snow on top.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

Forced insurance is another thing I despise, and yet I comply with the law. The idea that you have to pay into a fund before any wrongful act is committed, to pay when you inevitably do violate the law or get into a no fault accident...

I believe that any and every wrong should be rectified to the same degree as committed, that is I believe in making things right when we offend and in doing our best not to offend, but our system doesn't operate that way. I believe that witnesses should be held accountable for their witness, and held liable for the damage false witness causes.

We are very often presumed guilty and limited in our supposed freedoms (you know, the ones we fight wars, to keep?) We all comply in the airports, at government facilities, and if we don't comply we get it even worse. We shut up and do as we're told. We willingly take off our shoes, empty our bags, let them take our most minute intimate measurements and photograph it for posterities sake. We submit to countless background and credit checks, to prove our innocence when no witness of any wrong has come forth. We let their morality and their standards rule us with an iron rod.

Oh but we'll all shoot it out when the come for our guns. Never mind that we didn't care about them taking our dignity or honor which is now long gone! But those guns, they'll have to pry them from my cold arm of flesh.

It is a battle between their standards and ours and yet only one side ever takes a stand, cracks down on dissent. What would happen if enough Utah'ns refused to work or require their employees to work on Sunday? Their wives to work? Send their kids to public indoctrination? If enough refused to travel by air or comply with degrading restrictions etc...

This is the bully movie where he will crush the lone actor, where only a stand of the whole will stop him, but we're all cowards afraid to be found acting alone, the lone nut.

I do not like unions because they are usually a separate gadianton covenant unto themselves, but we better all believe in collective bargaining because united we stand, divided we fall. The proofs all around you.

There are really people out there that believe in "the iron (or subsistence) law of wages." The whole world is evidence of that if you believe the Lord that there is enough and then some, that it is not given that one man should posses that which is above another (I think of this as access to natural resources from which to exalt oneself).

I love that some few 3rd world populations are climbing out of abject poverty, but even more upper and middle class are descending into it, it didn't cost the powers that be a dime to fund their supposed global wage arbitrage. It won't, they just keep getting richer.

Do you realize that once you make a certain amount of money, you cannot possibly spend just the interest on that money fast enough to diminish it? Makes Bill Gates "charity" somewhat laughable. Try spending a million dollars a day, every day for the rest of your life. Now try 100 million! It literally becomes almost impossible to lose money. Let alone the covenant oath bound global corporate monopolies who manipulate supply and demand, credit and monetary expansion and contraction, government law and policy, public opinion, etc... for their own gain.

I think that we are all stewards of different and varying resources. I do not believe that the Lord gave Allison Krauss her voice solely to enrich her, but as a talent with which to bless the lives of others. Likewise the prophets wisdom etc... Those so poorly endowed as to receive solely the gift for accruing money and means are no different, their talents were given to those around them c/o that individual.

God should teach us a lesson by having the clouds with hold rain until we pay, the birds with hold song until we pay, the sun with hold light... But He wouldn't it's not His way, not His system, it's that other guys who sets all values in terms of what you can get for it in money. That's mammon by definition, setting values by a monetary and not moral basis. We are so guilty of compliance!

The ditch digger will never be worth as much as Larry Flint's genius, he earned it (whereas the ditch digger earned poverty and a broken back). Those CEO's for Government Sach's earned it, but you earned a broken family, low self esteem a middle management equivalent career and a cookie cutter house in the suburbs also known as the "American Dream." Money is always the defining element of what somebody earned. Our "work ethic" is a money ethic with the poor, destitute, and bankrupt losers on one side, and the benevolent wealthy whom we envy on the other.

To be spiritually minded is life eternal. That's values based, that's morality based. But how do you get your leg out of the trap? Ask God because at this point the collective answer isn't "selling" (hypocrisy intended) and the answer is by and in large individual to be had by personal revelation. Or just hold your breath and wait for the events to come and the day in which "the chosen" facilitate it for you to flee to.

Everything is 180 out.

[Original_Intent]

Welcome back SM&P/ Good to hear from you again.

[AussieOi]

thats top shelf stuff J

you need to start a blog

i dont think the world is ready any more

its too busy thinking of its own self interest

it cant see teh way to self interest is ground interest

there will be no riots, just the occasions guy going postal

they have perfected alienation- we all think we are separate and too unique