We The People Must Reclaim Our Constitution

[Amore Vero]

Mayyyybbee... he's just not that into politics? Maybe he's lazy and pulls the lever for the 'D' because that's what his parents did and his parent's parents before them?

Lazy is a choice. We would all like to be lazy & leave it up to others. Deep down, he 'knows' lazy, even in political things, is wrong. Even if his parents did it too.

[Jason]

I don't think that he would disagree with having people learn/teach to become more informed about constitutional principles. It seems like that's the point you're trying to make, Mummy. I don't disagree with you that it will take an act of God to preserve this nation because of how far we have gone in terms of wickedness. But God works through people to accomplish His will. Remember that.

p.s. If you agree with the Joseph Smith "white horse prophecy" than you'll remember that it's the "Elders" that come to save the constitution when it hangs by a thread. How can they come to save the constitution when they're ill-informed??

Not the point I was trying to make.....points are underlined with most important points in red. Its about priorities and what's going to work and what won't.

God also directly intervenes (judgments).....and that has been prophesied.

Not sure what to think about the "white horse prophecy"......lots of what ifs and different perspectives out there. Agree with the gist of your comment though.....kind of hard to save something if you don't know a thing about it! That said, the Constitution won't save the day....but is simply a set of rules or constraints whereby righteous people can live in peace and function together.....so my perspective is righteousness must come first and is a much higher priority. To each their own though!

[InfoWarrior82]

Mayyyybbee... he's just not that into politics? Maybe he's lazy and pulls the lever for the 'D' because that's what his parents did and his parent's parents before them?

Lazy is a choice. We would all like to be lazy & leave it up to others. Deep down, he 'knows' lazy, even in political things, is wrong. Even if his parents did it too.

But does that make him "wicked"?

[InfoWarrior82]

I don't think that he would disagree with having people learn/teach to become more informed about constitutional principles. It seems like that's the point you're trying to make, Mummy. I don't disagree with you that it will take an act of God to preserve this nation because of how far we have gone in terms of wickedness. But God works through people to accomplish His will. Remember that.

p.s. If you agree with the Joseph Smith "white horse prophecy" than you'll remember that it's the "Elders" that come to save the constitution when it hangs by a thread. How can they come to save the constitution when they're ill-informed??

Not the point I was trying to make.....points are underlined with most important points in red. Its about priorities and what's going to work and what won't.

God also directly intervenes (judgments).....and that has been prophesied.

Not sure what to think about the "white horse prophecy"......lots of what ifs and different perspectives out there. Agree with the gist of your comment though.....kind of hard to save something if you don't know a thing about it! That said, the Constitution won't save the day....but is simply a set of rules or constraints whereby righteous people can live in peace and function together.....so my perspective is righteousness must come first and is a much higher priority. To each their own though!

True, as discussed in other threads, the constitution is a "living document", designed for a secular nation, that changes with the consent of the people. Obviously the country is generally pretty bad, so therefore all the unjust laws, amendments, and precedents we have now. I do agree with Pres Benson that priorities are to obey the commandments and become clean through the atonement. I just feel that I'm not done at that point. I feel it is important that once people have gotten to that point, it is still imperative to have a firm grasp on why it was in THIS country that God allowed the Restoration to take place.

[genesal]

This talk explains "being deceived" (even the very elect) worth reading
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?local ... 82620aRCRD
Power of Evil
Elder David B. Haight
Assistant to the Council of the Twelve

[Amore Vero]

Mayyyybbee... he's just not that into politics? Maybe he's lazy and pulls the lever for the 'D' because that's what his parents did and his parent's parents before them?

Lazy is a choice. We would all like to be lazy & leave it up to others. Deep down, he 'knows' lazy, even in political things, is wrong. Even if his parents did it too.

But does that make him "wicked"?

Well, the righteous aren't decieved or if they are they quickly catch themselves & repent. So when the scriptures (2 Nephi 28, 3 Nephi 7:7, etc.) talk about 'everyone', except a rare few who are righteous, becoming deceived today by the craftiness & philosophies of men, even political philosophies, & the scriptures call these deceived people 'corrupt' & wicked because they are decieved to support & do evil, well, what are we to think? Someone who supports evil, even unknowingly, is blindly evil. For they make a choice to not become informed & educated in vital truths pertaining to freedom & righteousness & do not live worthy of the Holy Spirit to discern evil men & philosophies.

The wicked usually seem more wonderful & righteous, than the righteous do.

[lundbaek]

I don't think there are very many people who are totally righteous, nor are there many people who are totally wicked. I personally do not understand how an otherwise very righteous person could, for example, fail to actively promote moral and constitutional principles in government, not recognize that there is indeed a secret combination deliberately destroying our nation and not oppose it, and not be trying to learn of history, current events, prophecy, nations and kingdoms as we were advised to do in the October 2009 Conference. On the other side, among my LDS associates actively engaged in these things is a brother recently released from prison, and a man who is barely active in church.

I now suspect that the Lord may be inspiring a certain, relatively few people, both members and non-members, to an awareness of our "awful situation" and a desire to oppose the LDGs, to a desire to study, defend, uphold, and promite compliance with the constitutional principles in government, and an interest in history, current events, prophecy, wars and the perplexities of nations, and of nations and kingdoms. It makes sense to me that the Lord would do it this way so as to have enough people prepared to help in the establishment of the Kingdom of God after the cleansing of America, yet not so many that would arouse the attention of the LDGs to the point that they would interfere with the Church's operations or foment a major war for the purpose of quelling all interest in freedom and liberty. Mind, this is not gospel according to Lundbæk, just my suspicions.

[Jason]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Threepercen ... 9ZmG5k7MN8

Nice....youtube channel! I just subscribed!

[lundbaek]

I'm hoping somebody will take issue with my perhaps not obvious enough suggestion that the Lord may be keeping many members from a awareness of our "awful situation" and commandment to oppose the LDGs, our commandment to study, defend, uphold, and promite compliance with the constitutional principles in government, and His commandment to study history, current events, prophecy, wars and the perplexities of nations, and to learn of nations and kingdoms. I am just suggesting that this is the case, certainly not stating it as fact. I can see some wisdom in it, but frankly, I'm wishing to be proven wrong.

[Amore Vero]

I do not believe that is the case Lundbaek. I do not believe Heavenly Father can or will keep people from knowledge or enlightenment that they deserve & earn & are worthy of & thus keep them from the blessings of that enlightenment. He has other ways of protecting the righteous from the wicked.

[NoGreaterLove]

The final words of the Lord in suspending the order were: "And let those commandments which I have given concerning Zion and her law be executed and fulfilled, after her redemption" (D&C 105:34).

Further implementation of the order must therefore await the redemption of Zion. Here Zion means Jackson County, Missouri. When Zion is redeemed, as it most certainly shall be, it will be redeemed under a government and by a people strictly observing those "just and holy principles" of the Constitution which accord to men their God-given moral agency, including the right to private property. If, in the meantime, socialism takes over in America, it will have to be displaced, if need be, by the power of God, because the United Order can never function under socialism or "the welfare state" for the good and sufficient reason that the principles upon which socialism and the United Order are conceived and operated are in opposition


(Marion G. Romney, Look to God and Live [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1971], 226.)

[lundbaek]

Amore Vero and others, how would you explain how an otherwise very righteous persons (think of members you know who are trying very hard to live all the commandments they are aware of and trying real hard to raise righteous children) could, for example, fail to actively promote moral and constitutional principles in government, not recognize that there is indeed a secret combination deliberately destroying our nation and not oppose it, and not be trying to learn of history, current events, prophecy, nations and kingdoms as we were advised to do in the October 2009 Conference. I see many great members in our ward, stake, and general area who fit that description. They just seem to be missing the boat.

[NoGreaterLove]

Amore Vero and others, how would you explain how an otherwise very righteous persons (think of members you know who are trying very hard to live all the commandments they are aware of and trying real hard to raise righteous children) could, for example, fail to actively promote moral and constitutional principles in government, not recognize that there is indeed a secret combination deliberately destroying our nation and not oppose it, and not be trying to learn of history, current events, prophecy, nations and kingdoms as we were advised to do in the October 2009 Conference. I see many great members in our ward, stake, and general area who fit that description. They just seem to be missing the boat.

I think many of us fall into the sin of complacency or inaction in different areas of our lives. We tend to be a beautiful flamingo hiding our head under the dirt, thinking that if we can not see it, it must not be a threat.

[genesal]

The final words of the Lord in suspending the order were: "And let those commandments which I have given concerning Zion and her law be executed and fulfilled, after her redemption" (D&C 105:34).

Further implementation of the order must therefore await the redemption of Zion. Here Zion means Jackson County, Missouri. When Zion is redeemed, as it most certainly shall be, it will be redeemed under a government and by a people strictly observing those "just and holy principles" of the Constitution which accord to men their God-given moral agency, including the right to private property. If, in the meantime, socialism takes over in America, it will have to be displaced, if need be, by the power of God, because the United Order can never function under socialism or "the welfare state" for the good and sufficient reason that the principles upon which socialism and the United Order are conceived and operated are in opposition


(Marion G. Romney, Look to God and Live [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1971], 226.)

Yes, and no.
The new government will be organized "in the mountains" by Elders and some nonmembers (Council of 50). Brigham Young said that the political Kingdom of God will serve to protect all men in their rights, regardless of their creed.

George Q. Cannon said " The Kingdom of God when established will not be for the protection of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints alone, but for the protection of all men, whatever their religious views or opinions may be. Under its rule, no one will be permitted to overstep the proper bounds or to interfere with the rights of others."

Brigham Young stated "if they wish to worship a white dog, they will have the privilege, if they wish to worship the sun they will have the privilege, if they wish to worship a man they will have the privilege, and if they wish to worship the "unknown God" they will have the privilege. This kingdom will circumscribe them all and will issue lasws and ordinances to protect them in their rights--every right that every people, sect and person can enjoy, and the full liberty that God has granted to them without molestation.

The beginning stage of the Kingdom of God will be organized in the West. The growth stage, during which it will rise in power as wars and disasters cause the dominion of other nations to diminish will be next.

The world-ruling stage, when it will be the political kingdom through which Christ will rule during the millennium will then come.

Parley P. Pratt spoke of the smallness of the political kingdom of God, "Hence the gathering of the Saints; the organization of the kingdom of God, religiously and politically, if you will; . . . It will be one of the smallest of governments upon this earth, to which a grain of mustard see is brought as a comparison. When we see the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, and among different nations, it proves that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand; we may then begin to look around for it. We must not look to Russia, or to England, to become this kingdom, but to the smallest of the governments in this world, one so small that it is compared to a grain of mustard seed. Where must we look for it? . . . among the Saints right here, where they are the majority, where there is not another larger government, where they are hemmed in with mountains, and can establish peace, and a kingdom and a government, and a law."

[Amore Vero]

Amore Vero and others, how would you explain how an otherwise very righteous persons (think of members you know who are trying very hard to live all the commandments they are aware of and trying real hard to raise righteous children) could, for example, fail to actively promote moral and constitutional principles in government, not recognize that there is indeed a secret combination deliberately destroying our nation and not oppose it, and not be trying to learn of history, current events, prophecy, nations and kingdoms as we were advised to do in the October 2009 Conference. I see many great members in our ward, stake, and general area who fit that description. They just seem to be missing the boat.

I believe that people do 'not' promote moral & constitutional principles of government because either:

1- they have not studied & realized the importance of that part of the Gospel yet, (for they have been so busy in other areas, like motherhood, etc.) but if they are truly righteous they would have the Spirit & would easily accept & support such principles once taught them by others, like 'golden' non-members respond to missionaries. It's almost impossible to overwhelm someone with too much new knowledge if they have the Spirit, they usually soak up all the light they can get, it just takes people time, line upon line, to learn things on their own, so if you come along with new light & knowledge of constitutional principles, they will discern it's goodness & grasp it & be very grateful to have learned it. People with the Spirit are so easy to teach & eager to learn.

OR

2- they 'choose' to not study & become aware of & support such principles, because they really do not have the Spirit, even though they look righteous in all other respects, & so even if you tried to enlighten them to these principles they choose not to accept them, because of the responsibility that goes along with it & the necessity to maybe repent of something they aren't ready to give up, like some kind of socialism perk.

'Having the Spirit' (which is the true test of righteousness) is the key to someone accepting & supporting these righteous principles or not. Those without the Spirit rarely do, though they may continue in all other aspects of church life as if they were righteous, for they almost always believe they 'are' righteous & appear so to most everyone.

Every person with the Spirit (truly righteous) I have ever known, has always responded to & understood & wanted to support these principles once taught them.

So bottom line, I believe people have either 'not heard the truth' of these things yet, or ''they choose' not to study & accept it on purpose & you will quickly know which one they are when you try to talk with them about it.

[Jason]

Politicians are now talking austerity for America – adios home mortgage deduction! What is that going to do to the home market and to prices? What will that mean for what’s left of America’s middle class?

Is it necessary? Absolutely not! The national debt does not even need to exist in any form whatsoever, we have been controlled to believe that we owe banks for the use of our own money system! It’s a brainwashing and in this short video David Icke spells it out as to where the power really lies.

The power rests with us!

David Icke - We Have The Power to Bring Down The Pyramid!

http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... -lies.html

More truth (partial) with a new age twist....unfortunately from one of my favorite financial bloggers....

[InfoWarrior82]

Does the atonement cover this particular sin of complacency? Maybe because they had no knowledge in the first place to base their political decisions on?

[Amore Vero]

I believe that no matter what our knowledge is on political issues, we will reveal our true selves & show what side of the battle for freedom or force that we are on, just by the choices we instinctively make in life & who we vote for. Those with the Spirit will most likely not be deceived to vote for wolves in sheep's clothing. Righteous people will instinctively feel uncomfortable with issues of force. And those who like to use force will be uncomfortable giving others alot of freedom.

Thus, despite our present knowledge of political things, if we truly desire freedom in our hearts, we will search out the knowledge needed to insure that freedom, for us & everyone else.

Thus, we are accountable for our acts, despite our lack of knowledge. In fact our lack of knowledge is often our own choosing & fault.

[genesal]

Actually 'having no knowledge' on the subject is no excuse.....

Doctrine and Covenants Section 88 commands:

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

D&C 88:78
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

D&C 88:79
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms--

D&C 88:80
80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.

D&C 88:81
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

D&C 88:82
82 Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads.

I also add that this also promises that if you obey Section 88 you minds become single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you, and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth ALL things.
Then you won't have to worry about what the General Authorities are now saying.

[lundbaek]

I trust most of youo know that President Uchtdorf reminded us of the commandment to become educated, quoting most of D&C 88:79, in the October 2009 General Conference Priesthood Meeting. I've heard or read no follow-up since then. So I guess we can forget it.

[InfoWarrior82]

I trust most of youo know that President Uchtdorf reminded us of the commandment to become educated, quoting most of D&C 88:79, in the October 2009 General Conference Priesthood Meeting. I've heard or read no follow-up since then. So I guess we can forget it.

Haha, lundbaek. Oh yes! This is actually something I bring up in conversations to help make my point that we have no excuses to be irresponsible in our political awareness.

Amore Vero- In reality, I tend to agree with you and everything that you're saying. I guess I'm just playing the devil's advocate because it's something that has been on my mind for a long time. It's just really uncomfortable knowing people that really are genuine in their desire to keep the commandments but just can't come to grips with the cancers in our political system.

[InfoWarrior82]

Actually 'having no knowledge' on the subject is no excuse.....

Doctrine and Covenants Section 88 commands:

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

D&C 88:78
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

D&C 88:79
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms--

D&C 88:80
80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.

D&C 88:81
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

D&C 88:82
82 Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads.

I also add that this also promises that if you obey Section 88 you minds become single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you, and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth ALL things.
Then you won't have to worry about what the General Authorities are now saying.

WONDERFUL! I keep forgetting to post this reference!

[lundbaek]

I feel the same as InfoWarrior82, really uncomfortable "knowing people that really are genuine in their desire to keep the commandments but just can't come to grips with the cancers in our political system", and not willing to even try to deal with the commandments regarding education as President Uchtdorf explained, regarding studying, defending, upholding and abiding by those principles of the Constitution that protect fundamental or unalienable rights for all persons, and regarding awakening to and opposing the secret combinations bent on destroying our nation.

[Amore Vero]

Amore Vero- In reality, I tend to agree with you and everything that you're saying. I guess I'm just playing the devil's advocate because it's something that has been on my mind for a long time. It's just really uncomfortable knowing people that really are genuine in their desire to keep the commandments but just can't come to grips with the cancers in our political system.

I understand what you are saying & it is confusing to see people who seem so righteous yet who seem so blind to things as they really are.

I believe these people choose, for some reason, to stay on the safe level they are on, & usually do not have the desire or will to do what's necessary to have the light & Spirit needed to see & understand how awful our situation is.

Without the Spirit, such awfulness is too hard to believe or understand, it can scare people too much to admit it or face it. Only the Spirit can enlighten our minds, open our eyes & give us the courage to look at it & fight for right.

It is prophesied that there will only be a few people today who live worthy of the Spirit to see things as they really are & aren't deceived. Everyone else will be decieved, even those who seem to be righteous. But you can easily tell a truly righteous person because they have eyes that can see & ears that can hear.

[lundbaek]

I believe that many of these people who seem, for some reason, to stay on the safe level they are on, & seem to not have the desire or will to do what's necessary to have the light & Spirit needed to see & understand how awful our situation is, would rise to the occasion if the Prophet or any Apostle were to tell us to get with it. But then again, how much action was generated by President Uchtdorf telling/reminding us of the commandment to become educated as directed in D&C 88:79 ? I've not yet found a single member to whom that statement meant anything at all when I've brought it to their attention. And I've found no other member who has been motivated to do anything by President Packer's statement in the August 2010 Ensign (Pg. 23) about the commandment Re. secret combinations.