Political Kingdom of God

[Mahonri]

With all of these constant distractions from what our real goal must be, I ask myself the question, "What does everyone know about the political Kingdom of God?"

We are focused on idiots in the media *cough-AJ* *cough-GB*

We are focused on idiots in government

We are focused on the faith of others and fake controversies surrounding those faiths

we are focused on the Babylonian economy

but not a really a darn thing on what we are doing to actually build the political Kingdom of God. Is it because we know nothing about it? We don't care?

[mattctr]

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the topic?

[Henmasher]

I find it difficult to identify the political kingdom of God with the knowledge we have. This is because I don't see room for any politics in His kingdom.

[Original_Intent]

I spent a lot of time thinking about this of late. I have always wanted to do "something big" to move the kingdom forward. I have come to the conclusion that is not what is required or wanted.

The political kingdom of God can only be made up of Zion individuals and families. We could have every perfect law given to us (I don't think it iwll happen that way but say it was all revealed) well it would fail if there weren't people capable of living it.

Our Constitution was imperfect but was a huge step in the direction towards God's political kingdom. Yes Henmasher there is politics in God's kingdom because there is agency in God's kingdom. It is just that those politics bear little resemblance to what we currently call politics.

We were told we were given a republic "if we can keep it". Did we?
As a church we have been commanded to uphold and defend the Constitution. Think of the Constitution as a lesser law that needs to be kept before we can get the next step. As members of the church who were given dvinely inspired instruction, most of us have failed, most of us haven;t even taken the educational steps needed to understand what that means.

We were also told that the Constitution would be sufficient for ruling only a moral and religious people. Too many thought that they could be protected BY the Constitution, while at the same time skirting the intent of the law for their own personal gain. We blame Washington DC, and they share a large part of the blame, but we also can look at Wall Street, every board room in every corporation in the country, every person who voted to take money out of someone else's pocket and put it in their own. This includes not only people who take welfare, but anyone who likes the current education system because they think it is "free".

The only things I can do right now is try to make myself a Zion person and make my family a Zion family. Do the best to vote for and support the best possible candidates, and educate myself and anyone else that I can.

I am with Jason - we are not going to turn this around, at this point my personal feeling is try to save as many as possible, be as prepared and educated to rebuild after the cleansing. Still fight to move things in the right direction. I feel that feeling that the cleansing is necessary and therefore trying to contribute to the collapse, is justifying the means for the ends.

I feel that one way or another we have to return to a Constitutional government, and we have to show that we can live that law before we will be ready for the next step.

[lundbaek]

In his book, “His Return - Prophecy, Destiny and Hope”, Richard N. Skousen, using scriptures and modern revelations, explains his understanding of events that will occurr prior to the Savior’s Second Coming. Largely for the edification of myself and a few family and friends, I have extracted the following from Chapter 7, “Establishing the Political Kingdom of God”. I hope you enjoy it.

N.B.: the kingdom of God is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while the Kingdom of God will be a non-denominational political organization.

When the Church was established in 1830, it laid the foundation for the creation of the Kingdom of God. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God - the spiritual organization set up to preach the gospel, administer the saving ordinances and strengthen the faith of the Saints. But is not the Kingdom of God, which will be a non-denominatoinal political organization that will protect the rights of all citizens and religions. When Joseph is resurrected, he will help to complete the establishment of the Kingdom of God, which will first grow from within the Church.

The establishment of the Kingdom of God will be a momentous undertaking that will create the political foundations to rule the nations during the Millenium....it must be established before the Second Coming and Millenium can occurr.

The Kingdom of God....will fulfill the prophetic dream of Daniel. It is the stone cut without hands that will break down and replace the wicked nations of the world.

While it is true that the Church - the kingdom of God - has been restored, it does not act as a political entity and cannot fulfill Daniel’s prophecy of replacing the political nations of the world.

The Kingdom of God, which is the government that will rule the people through righteous laws, is the political organization that will be able to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel. The Kingdom will grow out of the Church and become an independent organization, as Brigham Young explained:
“...that Kingdom grows out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but is is not the Church, for a man may be a legislator in that body which will issue laws to sustain the inhabitants of the earth, and still not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ at all.”

We also learn from John Taylor....”Before there could be a Kingdom of God, there must be a church of God....because of the impossibility of introducing the law of God among a people who would not be subject to and guided by the spirit of revelation. Hence the world has generally made great mistakes upon these points. They have started various projects to try to unite and cement the people together without God, but they could not do it.”

Daniel Wells told the Saints: “When will the Kingdom be given into the hands of the Saints of the Most High God?....Just as soon as the Lord finds that He has a people upon the earth who will uphold and sustain the Kingdom, who shall be found capable of maintaining its interests and of extending its influence upon the earth,...”

It will be the duty of the Saints to teach the people how they should be organized under righteous principles of government.

Those who refuse to obey these laws will not be allowed to live in the communities of the Kingdom of God.

...President Young prophesied that the flag of the Kingdom of God will be the flag of the United States,...”The Church of Jesus Christ will produce this government, and cause it to grow and spread, and it will be a shield round about the Church. And under the influence and power of the Kingdom of God, the Church of God will rest secure and dwell in safety, without taking the trouble of governing and controlling the whole earth. The Kingdom of God will do this, it will control the kingdoms of the world.”

The Kingdom of God will bring political unity and peace.

As the Church comes under attack by the wicked, the Saints will be forced to withdraw from the influence and control of Babylon, especially when the wicked halt all commerce with the righteous. Since the Saints will then be cut off from the government of the United States, the political Kingdom of God will begin to be established among the members of the Church.

At the same time, as the corrupting influence of wickedness spreads among the people of the United States, the Constitution will continue to be shredded until ist is merely a tattered document.

It will be the Kingdom of God that will provide the leadership for the people during this critical time when the government of the United States is teetering on the edge of colllapse.

The prophets have testified that it will be the Latter-day Saints who will have the privilege of establishing the Kingdom of God and extending its marvelous influence throughout the earth.

Once the Kingdom of God has been established among the Saints, it will begin to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel that “a stone was cut without hands, which smote the image [representing the nations of wicked men] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces....And the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.”

Eventually, the Kingdom of God will cover the entire earth with righteous leadership.

As various government collapse because of war, internal strife and chaos, the people will naturally turn to the Kingdom of God, which will be the only source in the world for hope and order.

Because the Kingdom of God will replace the wicked nations that Satan has influenced and controlled, he will lose his ability to manipulate the nations of the earth.....It is for this reason that he has been in strong opposition to the kingdom of God from the very beginning, and he will continue to oppose the future establishment of the Kingdom of God.

The Lord has said that the Prophet Joseph will help to establish and spread the Kingdom of God throughout the world. Additional revelation will be needed to fully establish the Kingdom of God, which the Prophet Joseph will be privileged to receive.

[fps.sledge]

Political Kingdom of God? I'm not sure that statement can really mean anything in our mortal journey here on Earth. Furthermore, I'm not sure anyone can really use the terms "perfect" or "imperfect" when described our inspired Constitution. How can a government organization be perfect? How can a document be perfect? I might argue that it's imperfections are with the people that are associated with those organizations or documents.

For example, is the LDS church perfect? (I assume) All of us at this forum would naturally say that the church IS perfect, however the people are not. If the constitutional is inspired of God, I feel comfortable saying that the document is perfect. This isn't to say that there aren't people within the legislative, judicial, and executive branches don't make mistakes. That isn't to say that citizens don't take advantage of what is or isn't in the constitution. But like I said before, how does a document become perfect? Is that even possible in the life that requires agency?

What is it the original poster desires from a Political Kingdom of God? A certain established political platform by the LDS church? One of the lessons in Preach My Gospel teaches converts to become engaged in politics and within their communities. THere is very little asked of God beyond that. This doesn't mean God thinks LDS people will make all the right choices It may very well mean he knows they will make the wrong choices, and hopes that by living the Gospel that one day they will recognize those mistakes and fix them.

[Original_Intent]

lundbaek,

That's very awesome. Last Monday we had an FHE where I discussed a lot of these same things with my family. I have never read that book, but it sounds very similar to my own thoughts.

We discussed how much of what we are taught divides into these two areas of "The Church" and "The Kingdom"

Church--------------------------------------------------------Kingdom

High Priest-------Book of Mormon leadership position------------Cheif Judge
Mercy---------------------------------------------------------Justice
I will not say it, but in the temple we are assigned roles, male and female, for each
The Word-------------------------------------------------------The Law
Old Jerusalem-----two world capitals during millenium----------New Jerusalem

Again, in pretty much identical thoughts to what you expressed, my feeling that I have had recently is that the main goal of the church is to create people that can live "the law". I also believe that one reason that it will take over most of the world and destroy other kingdoms is that it will be such a prosperous society. Think of it!

No need for any production to go into security Think of the effort currently spent to protect property, law enforcement, etc. All of that will be unnecessary. Debt will be either very minimal or non-existent. Wealth will be much more evenly distributed and will therefore develop an almost perfect economy with little or no waste and everything that is lost through corruption or any type of dishonesty will be gone.

The maintenance of the prison system and the billions that takes every year - gone. People who cannot keep the law will make reparations and I would expect if there are repeated problems be cast out of the society. There will be no EXCUSE for theft because everyone will lovingly help you produce whatever you need, people will voluntarily assist those who cannot provide for themselves.

It's very exciting times to live in. But although I think it WILL start within the church, I do not think that it will be organized by the church leadership. I could be wrong, and frankly I would be afraid to join a group that was stating setting it up as their purpose - for fear that it could form into a splinter group from the church. Then again, maybe that fear to act is Satan's way to keep us from moving forward.

[Mahonri]

insert heavy sigh.

+1

The Kingdom of God (getting ready to get yelled at) is NOT the Church.


President George Q. Cannon said, “The Kingdom of God is separate a organization from the Church of God. There
may be men acting as officers of the Kingdom of God who will not be members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” –History of the Church 7:381-2

Let's get past yelling at me for this before I get into anything else

[lundbaek]

It is my observation and opinion that most LDSs are doing nothing to actually build the political Kingdom of God because they know nothing about it, and don't care about it. As a church, we are focused on certain basics to the exclusion of issues that would contribute to the building of the Kingdom of God.

[Original_Intent]

insert heavy sigh.

I wish I knew if that was directed at me, the OP, or someone else.

[Geeswell]

insert heavy sigh.

+1

The Kingdom of God (getting ready to get yelled at) is NOT the Church.


President George Q. Cannon said, “The Kingdom of God is separate a organization from the Church of God. There
may be men acting as officers of the Kingdom of God who will not be members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” –History of the Church 7:381-2

Wait, what? why?

I guess I don't understand how the Kingdom of God could be run by anyone other than holders of the priesthood.

Here are my thoughts at 3am fwiw

Why would God use someone who was not of the covenant in his Kingdom?

How can you separate the Priesthood from God's work. Indeed how can God's Kingdom not be about his work?

I want to reject the very notion that there will be "officers" who are not of the covenant. No, God doesn't love LDS more than everyone else, but he has his set ways...his orders if you will. Why would the Kingdom be any different.

That notion is disturbing to me....yet an apostles said it, so i can't reject it either...

[Geeswell]

I find it difficult to identify the political kingdom of God with the knowledge we have. This is because I don't see room for any politics in His kingdom.

Haha you laugh, but Is there not some truth there? He will reign as King. his word is final, so i'm not seeing room for politics either, hehe. at least not in the sense that we know it now!

[fps.sledge]

I'm just not sure what is meant by Political Kingdom of God, as if there's is some sort of goal in mind. When the plan was proposed to come to Earth, it was with the understanding that we, as participants, would be imperfect and make mistakes. Politics, in this life, involves those mistakes. So rightaway we all know that there are ways to improve.

When I think of Kingdom of God, I do think of something organized, or something with purpose. I guess I'm just not sure how one can appropriately identify where the "kingdom" can improve when it involves such an imperfect group of people. That's ok to try and I want to be involved in that Kingdom, lol, but I dont think I am on the same page the original poster is on. Maybe a little more background as to what brought this up would help.

[Original_Intent]

I find it difficult to identify the political kingdom of God with the knowledge we have. This is because I don't see room for any politics in His kingdom.

Haha you laugh, but Is there not some truth there? He will reign as King. his word is final, so i'm not seeing room for politics either, hehe. at least not in the sense that we know it now!

I would propose to you that agency will still exist, and therefore politics will still exist (although as a much different beast thanwhat we now call politics). Even here on these forums, people see the same word of God and come to different conclusions of the meaning. I doubt the Savior is going to spend the millenium telling each of us what the meaning of the word "is" is. Even in the pre-existence in the presence of God Himself, we had 1/3 separate into a separate "party" and rebel. Even among the other 2/3 there were all different levels of understanding, people who were "lukewarm" and people who got the big picture and were valiant.

It is important you understand when I say politics I do NOT at all mean a two party system where we elect a leader. As you correctly point out, that position is already taken. But certainly there will be progress to be made, things to be learned in the millenium, and I doubt everything will be handed to us on a silver platter. And I do think there will be elections for leaders of 10 families, 50 families, 100 families and etc. Do you think those positions will be by callings or chosen by the voice of the people. It could be either way, but my belief is that it will be by vote. At least within the Kingdom side of things. The Church side officers are selected by calling, but I believe the Kingdom side will be the voice of the people. That's just me though.

[Geeswell]

I find it difficult to identify the political kingdom of God with the knowledge we have. This is because I don't see room for any politics in His kingdom.

Haha you laugh, but Is there not some truth there? He will reign as King. his word is final, so i'm not seeing room for politics either, hehe. at least not in the sense that we know it now!

I would propose to you that agency will still exist, and therefore politics will still exist (although as a much different beast thanwhat we now call politics). Even here on these forums, people see the same word of God and come to different conclusions of the meaning. I doubt the Savior is going to spend the millenium telling each of us what the meaning of the word "is" is. Even in the pre-existence in the presence of God Himself, we had 1/3 separate into a separate "party" and rebel. Even among the other 2/3 there were all different levels of understanding, people who were "lukewarm" and people who got the big picture and were valiant.

It is important you understand when I say politics I do NOT at all mean a two party system where we elect a leader. As you correctly point out, that position is already taken. But certainly there will be progress to be made, things to be learned in the millenium, and I doubt everything will be handed to us on a silver platter. And I do think there will be elections for leaders of 10 families, 50 families, 100 families and etc. Do you think those positions will be by callings or chosen by the voice of the people. It could be either way, but my belief is that it will be by vote. At least within the Kingdom side of things. The Church side officers are selected by calling, but I believe the Kingdom side will be the voice of the people. That's just me though.

ok, thanks for discussing.

So at what point do become of one heart and of one mind? wouldn't you say that the 1/3 was, in a sense, weeding out those who wouldn't follow truth? What about the millennium? I thought it was a time for doing God's work? temple work, etc. At what point do we dethrone ideas other than "spelled out" truth? I understand what you are saying, Im just trying to reconcile the idea of a perfect zion with agency, if agency in zion all ends up at the same place. In a perfect world, isn't there one perfect way to have things?

don't get me wrong, I LOVE choices. but i thought the whole point of agency was to learn to choose between wrong and right, and choose right. do you see what i mean?

Obviously there will be progress to be made, as you say. I agree with that, because just because we are in the millennium, it doesn't mean we are automatically perfect. Also perhaps many won't be ready to accept all truth yet? that comes with a lot of responsibility, for sure.

When do we get the plain and simple truths and

[lundbaek]

As I follow the reasoning and scriptural and other references provided by the author of the book "His Returm", it seems more than reasonable that the Kingdom of God will be separate a organization from the Church of God, or the kingdom of God. It appears the Kingdom of God will include people, even in leadership position, who will not be members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latteer-day Saints. At least not at the outset. But I believe those non-members will be of poliltical persuasions in harmony with gospel principles. And gospel principles include those principles of the US Constitution as originally established; principles that square with the US Constitution and which support the principles of fundamental or unalienable rights for all persons. I note there are even now many non-LDS people who political persuasions square with principles of fundamental or unalienable rights for all persons to a much greater extent than those of many active LDS people. Just compare Chuck Baldwin and Ron Paul with Senators Hatch and Bennett, and Mitt Romney.

[shadow]

The political kingdom of God we're referring to is terrestrial. A terrestrial people will run it under the direction of God.

[Mahonri]

wow, it seems like this is a new subject to many. Instead of looking to outside sources, I would like to highly encourage the reading of "The Government of God" by John Taylor.

He discusses in-depth the concept of what we are supposed to be working for here and now.

There are some more quote on the topic and principle I will share when I get some time.

It is available pretty cheap online, or you can read much of it on google books
http://books.google.com/books?id=VCdOAA ... &q&f=false

[Mahonri]

has anyone here read "The Government of God" by John Taylor?

what were your thoughts on it, especially in terms of this discussion?