CNBC: Gold to hit $11,000 per Oz on dollar collapse - Video

[Glenn]

Sorry Glenn. Didn't mean to offend you. I apologize if I did. Wasn't my intention at all! If I can answer a specific question, I gladly will.

Cheers!

No worries, lets let it go......Say, do you like sushi?

[Jason]

I consider the ideas espoused as deceptive and I treat them accordingly....if you don't like it and take it personal.....suit yourself! But it is ironic that when your ideas are pointed out to be screwy....you respond with a personal attack and change topic points (habitual posters & territory issues) rather than address the flawed thought process - logic of your post and that of my corresponding response.

...if you were so flippant about the matter....why even bother posting a response to begin with???

WOW! What are you wired up on? I already see that you have changed your response back to me multiple times. Why do I suspect this is a tactic you employ often; perhaps when past comments/details become inconvenient? Now Jason, Mum or whoever you are, stop and think about that for a moment before you start accusing others of being deceptive. Intellectual bullies and hypocrites do not get much traction with me.

So much for leaving and family time.....yes I often post...and then read it and think through it again and make revisions. Ought to do that before initial posting but I don't. As far as tactic...again with the assumptions. Habitual modus operandi perhaps...tactic not!

Secondly, it’s clear you are so compulsive that you just don't listen enough. You see, many of us talk about debt, food storage, and precious metals on this forum, but there is one commodity I value above all others: Its called Time! Unlike me, you seem to have an unlimited amount of time. You simply have to be patient for my responses because you rank a little beneath family and work on my priority scale. I think the current post ratio between us 1/100; hopefully that will keep you occupied for a day or two.
So worried of my account....don't sweat it. Respond whenever you so desire....not that I have any control over that...LOL.

Who cares what the post ratio is....you are making a mountain out of a mole hill (my opinion) and none of this deals with the economics in question....in terms of wasting that precious and perishable commodity called time. This is your second post that has not addressed my response (my logic on economics) but instead you make stabs at me via my time and myriad other issues that do not address the topic. And then cry about time.....you are making this personal when it doesn't need to be that way.

I'm currently in the area. Prior to this thread I was hoping to join some of the others for sushi. I prefer face to face discussion; it reminds me of the good ole college days. I would much rather give my rebuttal in person; one can learn so much more. I propose that we discuss our differences over sushi this coming weekend. It can be as constructive or unpleasant as you want it to be: I would prefer the former. Besides, I think getting out might be good for you.

Again with the assumptions....fyi - its Olive Garden I think and unfortunately not sushi. I prefer constructive as well....this medium leaves one to interpret mostly through one's own lenses.....with all its artifacts (assumptions).

I will check back in a few days to see if I'm welcome to such a gathering, irregardless of your individual plans.

Regards

One or both of us has faulty logic on economics and what we are seeing in the markets....addressing that is constructive. All this stuff about being wired up, time, personal issues, etc.....is nothing but a distraction and a waste of time while making the issue of differences of opinion personal/destructive rather than constructive.

[LoveIsTruth]

Ron Paul on the Gold Standard and Competing Currencies Fox News October 4 2009

[LoveIsTruth]

• “I believe in honest money, the gold and silver coinage of the Constitution, and a circulating medium convertible into such money without loss. I regard it as a flagrant violation of the explicit provisions of the Constitution for the federal government to make it a criminal offense to use gold or silver coin as legal tender or to issue irredeemable paper money.”
  
  (Ezra Taft Benson, God, Family, Country: Our Three Great Loyalties, 1974.)
  
  Let us prepare ourselves for the trying time ahead and resolve that, with the grace of God and through our own self-reliance, we shall rebuild a monetary system and a healthy economy which, once again, will become the model for all the world. (An Enemy Hath Done This, pp. 220-21.)" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p 640.)

[Glenn]

One or both of us has faulty logic on economics and what we are seeing in the markets....addressing that is constructive. All this stuff about being wired up, time, personal issues, etc.....is nothing but a distraction and a waste of time while making the issue of differences of opinion personal/destructive rather than constructive.

Let just say up front that neither you or I, or anyone on this forum, knows with absolute certainty how this catastrophe is going to play out.

In terms of either you or I being right or wrong I just don’t see it that way. My interest in economics and history make it clear to me that this is not a binary event (all or nothing). There are many variables, and not everyone will be affected the same way. I see a scenario where you and I may agree on points A and B, but disagree on C. One of us may be right, or perhaps we both will crash and burn as you suggested. It’s the journey of discussion/contemplation that matters.

Anyhow, it’s going to be a tight squeeze, but I hope to make it to the gathering on Sat

[Glenn]

One or both of us has faulty logic on economics and what we are seeing in the markets....addressing that is constructive. All this stuff about being wired up, time, personal issues, etc.....is nothing but a distraction and a waste of time while making the issue of differences of opinion personal/destructive rather than constructive.

Let just say up front that neither you or I, or anyone on this forum, knows with absolute certainty how this catastrophe is going to play out.

In terms of either you or I being right or wrong I just don’t see it that way. My interest in economics and history make it clear to me that this is not a binary event (all or nothing). There are many variables, and not everyone will be affected the same way. I see a scenario where you and I may agree on points A and B, but disagree on C. One of us may be right, or perhaps we both will crash and burn as you suggested. It’s the journey of discussion/contemplation that matters.

Anyhow, it’s going to be a tight squeeze, but I hope to make it to the gathering on Sat

Jason, In regards to Sat, I think time will be best spent making new acquaintances, but if the opportunity permits it would be good to get some clarification from you regarding the following:

I have perused a number of your posts with the little time I have had lately. You have spoken of Brigham Young warning of a “day of reckoning” in regards to debt. You have also referenced the President Gordon B. Hinckley and his statement about saving a little money/cash for a “rainy day”. I even read a quote from you stating that “prophecy is on my side”. This last statement sounds a little presumptuous to me, but before I become critical I want to understand exactly what you mean by such statements. I also detect a strong irritation with those who are overly enthusiastic about investing in precious metals. I take a very qualitative approach to subjects such as these; I am not suited to the age of text messages and logic fragments so you will have to bear with me. Here are my thoughts-questions:

1) I suspect we completely agree that the debt issue is paramount. It is important to free ourselves from any institutional debt obligations as quickly as possible. I recall hearing President Hinkley’s advice first hand. I remember his tone and context clearly. For me his advice was pretty straight forward; have unfettered funds/cash (ready money not dependent on debt financing) that can be used in case a need arises. Also, avoid institutional debt (interest loans, lines of credit etc). Do you take these comments at face value, or do you apply a more narrow interpretation? Do you believe that these statements go a step further, and serve as an endorsement of Dollar holdings over other investments or forms of liquidity/wealth?

2) My study of history and economics has revealed that commodity backed currencies can still be debased, and those monetary systems can still fail (I have specific examples). There is no immunity from corruption when the Rule of Law is subverted by the Rule of Men. Precious metals have a degree of risk. However, so do dollars (FRNs). Gold is as good as cash until it isn’t. Likewise, dollars (FRNs) are as good as cash until they are not accepted as such. Accumulating either would expose its holder to a degree of risk/speculation, no? In today’s economic climate do you still prefer to hold dollars instead of gold for example? If so, why do you believe dollars are more immune to manipulation or debasement than other investments?

3) Finally, in order to be completely clear on where you stand I have a simple scenario. Lets suppose that you have completely freed yourself from any institutional debt obligations; you are debt free in a manner of speaking. Let’s now suppose you have a sizeable amount of cash available to you. Would you hold the cash, or diversify into commodities or other investments? Would you invest this cash into your plans for “food production” or other preparations? Perhaps, you would do a combination of all three?

Once I have a better idea of your perspective I will write up a response to your original comments about my original post. This is not a casual subject for me; there are multiple layers to consider. I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from, and I don’t believe you understand where I coming from. We may, or may not, have more in common than we think.

[Jason]

One or both of us has faulty logic on economics and what we are seeing in the markets....addressing that is constructive. All this stuff about being wired up, time, personal issues, etc.....is nothing but a distraction and a waste of time while making the issue of differences of opinion personal/destructive rather than constructive.

Let just say up front that neither you or I, or anyone on this forum, knows with absolute certainty how this catastrophe is going to play out.
Amen!

In terms of either you or I being right or wrong I just don’t see it that way. My interest in economics and history make it clear to me that this is not a binary event (all or nothing). There are many variables, and not everyone will be affected the same way. I see a scenario where you and I may agree on points A and B, but disagree on C. One of us may be right, or perhaps we both will crash and burn as you suggested. It’s the journey of discussion/contemplation that matters.

Anyhow, it’s going to be a tight squeeze, but I hope to make it to the gathering on Sat

[Jason]

One or both of us has faulty logic on economics and what we are seeing in the markets....addressing that is constructive. All this stuff about being wired up, time, personal issues, etc.....is nothing but a distraction and a waste of time while making the issue of differences of opinion personal/destructive rather than constructive.

Let just say up front that neither you or I, or anyone on this forum, knows with absolute certainty how this catastrophe is going to play out.

In terms of either you or I being right or wrong I just don’t see it that way. My interest in economics and history make it clear to me that this is not a binary event (all or nothing). There are many variables, and not everyone will be affected the same way. I see a scenario where you and I may agree on points A and B, but disagree on C. One of us may be right, or perhaps we both will crash and burn as you suggested. It’s the journey of discussion/contemplation that matters.

Anyhow, it’s going to be a tight squeeze, but I hope to make it to the gathering on Sat

Jason, In regards to Sat, I think time will be best spent making new acquaintances, but if the opportunity permits it would be good to get some clarification from you regarding the following:

Yeah I'll have my wife and kids with me so responsibilities may preclude an in-depth discussion unfortunately.

I have perused a number of your posts with the little time I have had lately. You have spoken of Brigham Young warning of a “day of reckoning” in regards to debt. You have also referenced the President Gordon B. Hinckley and his statement about saving a little money/cash for a “rainy day”. I even read a quote from you stating that “prophecy is on my side”. This last statement sounds a little presumptuous to me, but before I become critical I want to understand exactly what you mean by such statements. I also detect a strong irritation with those who are overly enthusiastic about investing in precious metals. I take a very qualitative approach to subjects such as these; I am not suited to the age of text messages and logic fragments so you will have to bear with me. Here are my thoughts-questions:

...not Brigham Young....it was President Monson in 2006. Numerous statements by others within the past decade talking about debt and reaching a point of not being able to pay it back....avoiding debt like the plague....etc.

1) I suspect we completely agree that the debt issue is paramount. It is important to free ourselves from any institutional debt obligations as quickly as possible. I recall hearing President Hinkley’s advice first hand. I remember his tone and context clearly. For me his advice was pretty straight forward; have unfettered funds/cash (ready money not dependent on debt financing) that can be used in case a need arises. Also, avoid institutional debt (interest loans, lines of credit etc). Do you take these comments at face value, or do you apply a more narrow interpretation? Do you believe that these statements go a step further, and serve as an endorsement of Dollar holdings over other investments or forms of liquidity/wealth?

Multiple examples have been given regarding debt. Elder Ballard in addressing a Stake Conference from the conference center in 2006 stated not to take on any debt without praying for confirmation from the Lord. I could give example after example after example.

....but if hyperinflation is the end point (worthless IOUs - dollars).....wouldn't it be most wise to bury oneself in debt (borrowing more valuable dollars) to buy precious metals??? ....or at worst paying the debt back with cheaper (or worthless) dollars??? If I can buy a car today and pay for it later with what it would cost for a loaf of bread.....why would that not be wise???

....unless of course deflation is the end point and that debt has to be paid back with increasingly expensive dollars (in shorter and shorter supply)??? This is my assumption....for better or worse. I can't see the prophets and apostles giving us counsel that isn't the most wise. Never happened in history to date....but maybe I'm wrong and very presumptuous....

The counsel was - set aside a little cash for rainy days because rainy days always come. He didn't say set aside a little gold or silver or other form of liquidity/wealth. If hyperinflation is the end result....we'll have more cash than we know what to do with.....but that isn't the case today is it.....instead we have less and less cash (falling wages and falling employment and declining credit) as the banks speculate in the markets driving commodity prices up.

2) My study of history and economics has revealed that commodity backed currencies can still be debased, and those monetary systems can still fail (I have specific examples). There is no immunity from corruption when the Rule of Law is subverted by the Rule of Men. Precious metals have a degree of risk. However, so do dollars (FRNs). Gold is as good as cash until it isn’t. Likewise, dollars (FRNs) are as good as cash until they are not accepted as such. Accumulating either would expose its holder to a degree of risk/speculation, no? In today’s economic climate do you still prefer to hold dollars instead of gold for example? If so, why do you believe dollars are more immune to manipulation or debasement than other investments?

Because debt has to be paid back with dollars and there isn't enough dollars in circulation to pay back the debt. Thus as debt is repaid the pool of dollars in circulation gets smaller and smaller (dollars get destroyed on a regular basis)....the quantity of gold on the other hand continues to grow year after year.

I'm also not trying to speak to investors....but to the vast majority whom are in debt and struggling to plan for the future....that might be tempted to buy precious metals rather than pay off debt (as has been counseled)....so I take it upon myself (perhaps unwisely) to point out the potential errors of that strategy as well as the lack of sufficient evidence of inflation/hyperinflation as well as the realities of deflation that we are experiencing.

3) Finally, in order to be completely clear on where you stand I have a simple scenario. Lets suppose that you have completely freed yourself from any institutional debt obligations; you are debt free in a manner of speaking. Let’s now suppose you have a sizeable amount of cash available to you. Would you hold the cash, or diversify into commodities or other investments? Would you invest this cash into your plans for “food production” or other preparations? Perhaps, you would do a combination of all three?

In terms of pure investment - cash is a good vehicle. I think PMs are in a bubble as well as most other major commodities. The only area I would be tempted would be food....although staying away from corn and other items with a significant portion of their market demand due to government subsidies (Ethanol, etc.)....CRE and RRE are online for another 15-30% drop over the next 18 months. Ultimately demand is falling as jobs are cut and wages are reduced......prices will eventually follow suit. We aren't that far away from blood in the streets.....and one could leverage that cash to buy assets at pennies on the dollar.

Once I have a better idea of your perspective I will write up a response to your original comments about my original post. This is not a casual subject for me; there are multiple layers to consider. I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from, and I don’t believe you understand where I coming from. We may, or may not, have more in common than we think.

Thank you for this response....much appreciated. Hope to learn from you on your position as well as we work through this!

[LoveIsTruth]

None of the prophets have said deflation will happen. In fact they said the opposite:

• "As in Germany and other nations that have previously traveled this road, the rush to get rid of dollars and acquire tangibles would rapidly accelerate the visible effects of inflation to where it might cost one hundred dollars or more for a single loaf of bread. Hoarded silver coins would begin to reappear as a separate monetary system which, since they have intrinsic value would remain firm, while printed paper money finally would become worth exactly it's proper value--the paper it is printed on! Everyone's savings would be wiped out totally. No one could escape.
  
  ... the nation would plunge into a depression that would make the 1930s look like prosperity. At least the dollar was sound in those days. In fact, since it was a firm currency, its value actually went up as related to the amount of goods, which declined through reduced production. Next time around, however, the problems of unemployment and low production will be compounded by a monetary system that will be utterly worthless."
  
  (An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 218.)" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p 639-640.)

You completely misinterpreted "the day of reckoning." That day was happening for decades as people lost homes due to debt, etc. But it does NOT mean hyperinflation will not happen. The prophet said it WILL happen. Any one with basic understanding of true economics and sound money can tell you that!

But you believe neither reason nor the prophets, and you actually have been fighting against the advice of the Founders, the prophets, and God himself, that the nation should have sound, hard, honest, 100% commodity based currency (i.e. gold, silver etc.) to preserve its Liberty.

So, IN THIS THING, you are on the wrong side of the truth, on the wrong side of true economics, on the wrong side of Liberty, on the wrong side of the prophets, and on the wrong side of God!

Good luck with that. You put your own conceited and twisted interpretations above the advice of reason, advice of the Founders, advice of the Prophets, and advice of God!

That is very unwise! Well, at least you can feel self-important for now, as you spout your nonsense for pages and pages!--but not for long,--reality and truth are the unconquerable opponent. Your folly will soon be evident to all!

[Jason]

None of the prophets have said deflation will happen. In fact they said the opposite:

• "As in Germany and other nations that have previously traveled this road, the rush to get rid of dollars and acquire tangibles would rapidly accelerate the visible effects of inflation to where it might cost one hundred dollars or more for a single loaf of bread. Hoarded silver coins would begin to reappear as a separate monetary system which, since they have intrinsic value would remain firm, while printed paper money finally would become worth exactly it's proper value--the paper it is printed on! Everyone's savings would be wiped out totally. No one could escape.
  
  ... the nation would plunge into a depression that would make the 1930s look like prosperity. At least the dollar was sound in those days. In fact, since it was a firm currency, its value actually went up as related to the amount of goods, which declined through reduced production. Next time around, however, the problems of unemployment and low production will be compounded by a monetary system that will be utterly worthless."
  
  (An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 218.)" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p 639-640.)

You completely misinterpreted "the day of reckoning." That day was happening for decades as people lost homes due to debt, etc. But it does NOT mean hyperinflation will not happen. The prophet said it WILL happen. Any one with basic understanding of true economics and sound money can tell you that!

But you believe neither reason nor the prophets, and you actually have been fighting against the advice of the Founders, the prophets, and God himself, that the nation should have sound, hard, honest, 100% commodity based currency (i.e. gold, silver etc.) to preserve its Liberty.

So, IN THIS THING, you are on the wrong side of the truth, on the wrong side of true economics, on the wrong side of Liberty, on the wrong side of the prophets, and on the wrong side of God!

Good luck with that. You put your own conceited and twisted interpretations above the advice of reason, advice of the Founders, advice of the Prophets, and advice of God!

That is very unwise! Well, at least you can feel self-important for now, as you spout your nonsense for pages and pages!--but not for long,--reality and truth are the unconquerable opponent. Your folly will soon be evident to all!

fyi - President Benson was talking about going off the gold standard prior to that occurring in the early 70's! It was also his opinion via a book and not direction via the pulpit! Unlike the debt comments and the Day of Reckoning as discussed by President Monson in 2006.

[LoveIsTruth]

fyi - President Benson was talking about going off the gold standard prior to that occurring in the early 70's!

And your point is? Are we back on gold standard? What is your point? Did anything change in the nature of fiat, or in the nature of sound, honest money, or in Principles of Liberty? Since those principles are eternal. You are not making any sense!

It was also his opinion via a book and not direction via the pulpit! Unlike the debt comments and the Day of Reckoning as discussed by President Monson in 2006.

And the Constitution, Reason, and 6,000 years of human history and Scripture are also opinions? And what makes you think that Ezra Taft Benson's express opinion was wrong, and your twisted and illogical extrapolations from an unrelated subject-matter are correct?


I have an authority higher than the words of Ezra Taft Benson; it is Reason and the Spirit of Truth, which accord perfectly with Benson's words. All these say that you are wrong, and Benson was right.

But since you have real problem with Reason, did you at least pray about it, as you said you would, and then see for yourself if Elder Benson was right or not? I tell you, he, and the Founders, and the Truth, were right: Liberty cannot exist and prosper without an honest and sound monetary system: of which 100% commodity based system is the most honest and stable one known to man!

Liberty demands Free Competition in Currencies. And Free Competition in Currencies demands an 100% commodity base monetary system (especially gold and silver), the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man, because no one likes being plundered.

So your opinion is wrong, and Elder Benson's and God's and the Truth's opinion is right.

[Jason]

You are not making any sense!

But since you have real problem with Reason....

Ranting doesn't induce discussion or use of reason.....nor does it make sense to me in response to what was stated....you are so quick to jump on your freight train that you ignore what has been said and digress to your chant. While I respect that you have a strong opinion concerning the matter.....just as spamming everyone (trying to force them to accept your viewpoint) with myriad posts with the exact same piece of information while proclaiming the "Benson principle"......your responses don't facilitate intelligent discussion but instead decay quite rapidly into a "you are right" and everyone else is wrong situation with complete obliviousness to what was even stated. The fact that you refuse to even address opposing information to your viewpoint also adds to the discredit of your opinion....

Like leaving this little tidbit of context out of your quote above -

But once the government itself openly refuses to honor it--as it must if foreign demands for gold continue--it is likely that the American people will soon follow suit.

...once you add that bit of context it changes the entire preceding piece doesn't it??? ....and obviously we've realized since then that that did not occur.

Here's another example of one of your tidbits albeit with different highlights concerning the same piece -

Even though American citizens would still be forced by law to honor the same pieces of paper as though they were real money, instinctively they would rush and convert their paper currency into tangible material goods which could be used as barter. As in Germany and other nations that have previously traveled this road, the rush to get rid of dollars and acquire tangibles would rapidly accelerate the visible effects of inflation to where it might cost one hundred dollars or more for a single loaf of bread. Hoarded silver coins would begin to reappear as a separate monetary system which, since they have intrinsic value would remain firm, while printed paper money finally would become worth exactly it's proper value--the paper it is printed on! Everyone's savings would be wiped out totally. No one could escape.

...yet we find current instruction is -

Gradually build a financial reserve, and use it for emergencies only. If you save a little money regularly, you will be surprised how much accumulates over time.

President Gordon B. Hinckley has taught: “Set your houses in order. If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts” ("To the Boys and to the Men," Ensign, Nov. 1998, 54).

http://www.providentliving.org/content/ ... -1,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....also if we are on the path to a worthless currency....wouldn't it be best to borrow as much of it as possible today and then acquire assets with it???

We should avoid debt. There is nothing that will cause greater tensions in life than grinding debt, which will make the debtor a slave to creditors. A specific goal, careful planning, and determined self-discipline are required to accomplish this.

http://www.providentliving.org/content/ ... -1,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I get an answer to my prayers I'll let you know!

I still find it amusing that you profess your conviction so strongly yet refuse to borrow (print your own) dollars to buy PMs prior to those dollars becoming absolutely worthless as you so vehemently profess with 100% certainty....for example if you are so confident in your silver predictions -

In 6 month (Oct-Nov 2011) $50-$70 or so.

Feb-Mar 2012: $80-90 ($100 is possible).

April 2012: $120 or thereabouts.

Within 2 years at least $200, probably much higher within 3.

Theoretically, it is going to infinity as the dollar that we have now is going to ZERO.

It is mathematical certainty, it is the destiny of ALL unbacked, i.e. fiat currencies.

...I mean seriously...you can borrow (print your very own money) at zero or near zero interest rates on a credit card for up to 12 months or more via one of their special offers that arrives in the mail daily.....and you are expecting a 43% bump in silver in the next 6 months....and even more as you extend the time period. If you so strongly believe in your conviction - why would you not disobey the prophets and do this????

....if you extend long enough the return is infinite isn't it??? since you wouldn't even have to pay the debt back.....since the dollar will be ZERO????

[LoveIsTruth]

...I mean seriously...you can borrow (print your very own money) at zero or near zero interest rates on a credit card for up to 12 months or more via one of their special offers that arrives in the mail daily.....and you are expecting a 43% bump in silver in the next 6 months....and even more as you extend the time period. If you so strongly believe in your conviction - why would you not disobey the prophets and do this????

....if you extend long enough the return is infinite isn't it??? since you wouldn't even have to pay the debt back.....since the dollar will be ZERO????

You need to ask the brethren why they didn't give this advice. If I had to guess, I'd say three reasons:

• a) The Church is trying to stay out of political matters. If the Prophet started tomorrow urging everyone to buy gold and silver because the dollar is going to collapse, he would be accused by the politicians of inciting panics and then he would be blamed for the collapse, thus bringing more political attacks on the church. I guess brethren think we are smart enough not to need to be commanded in all things, and thus spare the church the before mentioned problems.
  
  b) Most people do not usually know the precise timing of market fluctuations and/or movements, though the overall trend might be obvious. Therefore, it might be unwise to go deep into debt, thus jeopardizing your home, etc.
  
  c) It might be considered immoral to borrow money with the intention to default (through the currency collapse).

There might be more reasons, but these three come first to mind. Again, never was it stated by the brethren that inflation will NOT occur. In fact the opposite was said.

As for Benson’s predictions not coming to pass: wait a little longer. I’d say you will see it within 2-3 years. Why? Because NONE of the fundamental realities he was warning about has changed. They are all in place, stronger than ever. That is why what he has predicted i.e. hyperinflation and destruction of the dollar will inevitably happen.

[Jason]

...I mean seriously...you can borrow (print your very own money) at zero or near zero interest rates on a credit card for up to 12 months or more via one of their special offers that arrives in the mail daily.....and you are expecting a 43% bump in silver in the next 6 months....and even more as you extend the time period. If you so strongly believe in your conviction - why would you not disobey the prophets and do this????

....if you extend long enough the return is infinite isn't it??? since you wouldn't even have to pay the debt back.....since the dollar will be ZERO????

You need to ask the brethren why they didn't give this advice. If I had to guess, I'd say three reasons:

• a) The Church is trying to stay out of political matters. If the Prophet started tomorrow urging everyone to buy gold and silver because the dollar is going to collapse, he would be accused by the politicians of inciting panics and then he would be blamed for the collapse, thus bringing more political attacks on the church. I guess brethren think we are smart enough not to need to be commanded in all things, and thus spare the church the before mentioned problems.
  
  b) Most people do not usually know the precise timing of market fluctuations and/or movements, though the overall trend might be obvious. Therefore, it might be unwise to go deep into debt, thus jeopardizing your home, etc.
  
  c) It might be considered immoral to borrow money with the intention to default (through the currency collapse).

There might be more reasons, but these three come first to mind. Again, never was it stated by the brethren that inflation will NOT occur. In fact the opposite was said.

As for Benson’s predictions not coming to pass: wait a little longer. I’d say you will see it within 2-3 years. Why? Because NONE of the fundamental realities he was warning about has changed. They are all in place, stronger than ever. That is why what he has predicted i.e. hyperinflation and destruction of the dollar will inevitably happen.

Your doing it again.....complete refusal to address anything contrary to your paradigm. President Benson's prediction (opinion via book) was made prior to the US going off the gold standard (it was in the works at the time of his writing the book in the late 60's)....and it wasn't prophecy as shown by the context he offered at the conclusion of his prediction which you ignored.

While indeed at some point in the future it is most likely that the dollar will become worthless due to a complete collapse of the control structure....there is a huge gap between here and there to be bridged (most wisely by following the counsel of the prophets). The government (or its controllers) have never been more powerful than they are now. In fact they have an army of nearly 45 million people should they employ them for their SNAP (JPMorgan debit cards) food handouts....all paid courtesy of the rest of us. Do you see any signs of rebellion??? Are you going to quit paying your taxes today? Pick up your gun and march on DC?

Its going to take the judgments of God to wipe out their power and control. In the meantime....

Lets have a come to Jesus moment and call a few spades...

1) The US dollar is as much fiat as the note on your house and/or your cars. Its an IOU - i.e. Federal Reserve NOTE. It is NOT issued by government as was the case with Wiemar and Zimbabwe. Instead it is issued by private banks via IOU.....a liability to the American people and an asset on the banks balance sheet. Why would the banks purposely devalue their balance sheets??? Let the debtors off the hook??? Because Congress (that has as much backbone as a house on a sandy beach in the face of a 5+ category hurricane) says so???

2) The banks have printed a substantial amount of money since 2008 to shore up their balance sheets for the coming buying spree -

shows yet another record breached, with total assets hitting $2.793 trillion

...but most of that is US Treasuries -

As usual, the bulk of the change comes form the Treasurys accumulated courtesy of weekly POMOs. In the past week, however, the rate has declined to just $12.9 billion, leading to $2.57 trillion in securities held outright.

....and none of that money is hitting the streets causing inflation but instead sitting in excess bank reserves -

Total bank reserves also hit a new record of $1.59 trillion. At this point the SFP unwind is fully absorbed, and the change in the reserves matches changes in Fed assets one for one.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fed-ba ... all-around" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and pales in comparison to the liabilities and debt leverage that exists which is also leveraged against to speculate in commodities and shore up the stock market -

The world’s largest clearinghouse for credit-default swaps, ICE Trust, has had second thoughts about registering with regulators, citing concerns over new rules devised to bring transparency to the $600 trillion derivatives market.

ICE Trust, a division of the Intercontinental Exchange, the big derivatives exchange, applied to be a derivatives clearing organization with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission in November. Last week, the company quietly withdrew its application.

In a Thursday letter to the commission, which was released on Tuesday, a lawyer for ICE Trust said the company changed its mind because of “significant changes proposed to” regulations for clearing organizations.

The gesture may be symbolic. In July, ICE Trust will automatically be granted status as a clearinghouse, under the Dodd-Frank financial overhaul law.

IntercontinentalExchange (ICE)

IntercontinentalExchange (NYSE: ICE) is an American financial company that operates Internet-based marketplaces which trade futures and over-the-counter (OTC) energy and commodity contracts as well as derivative financial products. While the company's original focus was energy products (crude and refined oil, natural gas, power, and emissions), recent acquisitions have expanded its activity into the "soft" commodities (sugar, cotton and coffee), foreign exchange and equity index futures.

Currently ICE is organized into three business lines:

* ICE Markets — futures, options, and OTC markets. Energy futures are traded via ICE Futures Europe; soft commodity futures/options are handled by ICE Futures U.S.
* ICE Services — electronic trade confirmations and education.
* ICE Data — electronic delivery of market data, including real-time trades, historical prices and daily indices.

http://www.abeldanger.net/2011/01/600-t ... t-ice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In 2009, the six largest bank holding companies had combined trading revenues of $59.7 billion and pre-tax income of just $51.4 billion. In 2010, the story is similar. The top six made $75.7 billion in pretax income aided with $56.1 billion of trading revenues. Trading revenues are not only of considerable importance to the pre-tax earnings of these institutions — but serve to markedly distinguish them from traditional commercial banks, which are not typically involved in such endeavors. To put these numbers in perspective, the trading revenues of these six institutions during those two years represented 92.8% and 93.1% of such revenues at all American banks. Indeed, during those two periods, the combined trading revenues of just four of the six banks amount to more than the total income, before taxes, of the rest of the entire U.S. banking system.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 40#p199530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....which is why they will print more for themselves (not the rest of us) as needed -

Discount Window Borrowings Spike To Highest In 2011
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/discou ... ghest-2011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and its not just the US they are holding up....but the rest of the world as well -

One-Third of Fed Bailout Loans - and Essentially 100% of NY Fed Loans - Went to Foreign Banks
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/ron-pa ... eign-banks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...but the reality is its only for them and the odds are highly unlikely that they will print (have yet to do so) FREE (interest free) money that rains down on us via helicopters creating inflation/hyperinflation....rather they are only offering money via debt which is inherently deflationary as the money for interest is never created meaning at some point in time there is a major deflationary contraction as the debt is satisfied or assets lost.

3) As much money as has been created since 2008.....magnitudes more has been destroyed -

American households have seen real estate values plummet by at least $4.2 trillion but mortgage debt has only fallen by $140 billion.

If we combine equities, businesses, and other forms of wealth Americans have seen some $12.2 trillion in net worth disappear since the peak in 2007.

http://www.mybudget360.com/the-balance- ... 0-billion/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The latest numbers show Americans lost $8 trillion in housing equity from 2001 to April 2011, according to the Federal Reserve.

http://www.mutualfundreform.com/2011_05_28_archive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At March 31, home equity loans to underwater borrowers — or those who owe more on their first and second liens combined than their homes are worth — were equivalent to about half of Tier 1 common equity at Wells Fargo & Co. and about a third at Bank of America Corp. (see chart).

Still, the underwater portfolios appear to be profoundly unstable. Researchers have concluded that negative equity is a chief determinant of default, and analysts question whether large proportions of borrowers are skating by on minimum home equity payments and precarious modifications to first liens.

http://www.americanbanker.com/issues/17 ... 613-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We believe QE will not solve the structural problems confronting the economy, which include a depressed housing market, enormous state and local government budget shortfalls, rising energy prices, consumers who collectively have $1.1 trillion less to spend annually than in 2008, and huge federal budget deficits that leave the U.S. vulnerable to the generosity of foreign investors.

From 2002 through 2007, American consumers extracted an estimated $3.5 trillion of home equity to use primarily for consumption. The end of the home equity extraction game means consumers have less money to spend.

The TrimTabs Consumer Spendables Indicator—the sum of after tax income and equity extracted from real estate—measures the cash available for consumption.

Consumer spendables peaked in Q1 2008 at $7.06 trillion and then plummeted $1.24 trillion to a trough of $5.82 trillion in Q2 2010. While consumer spendables increased $159 billion annualized in the past two quarters, they remain $1.08 trillion below the peak.

The housing market is unlikely to improve anytime soon due to the huge number of delinquent homeowners and the inability of the market to clear unsold inventory:
• There are 7 million delinquent borrowers and another 6.3 million borrowers who owe more than their homes are worth. In other words, 25% of borrowers are delinquent or underwater.
• There are nearly 4 million unsold homes and another 2 million homes that banks are holding back from the market. This supply of homes is equal to about 15 months of unsold inventory.
• Housing prices are expected to decline another 10% to 20% as housing supply swamps demand.
• Errors in mortgage documentation have slowed the foreclosure process. Since foreclosures account for 25% to 40% of home sales, the market is less able to clear unsold inventory.
• Weak job growth and high long-term unemployment limit demand for homes.
• Banks refuse to book losses on delinquent homes, making large parts of bank balance sheets unavailable for lending.

http://www.trimtabs.com/global/pdfs/Wee ... alysis.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) We've hit the debt saturation point (maximum amount of debt we can service) -

In the last few years of explosive debt growth we have passed the point of the global economy being able to grow and improve productivity at a fast enough rate, not to be literally consumed by this existing debt burden.

Increased debt is now counterproductive to the growth of the economy because the economy simply does not have sufficient productive investments to absorb it. We may have plenty of investments but they are mal-investments. They are investments that simply cannot pay the debt financing utilized.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 40#p195862" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The expansion of debt peaked in mid-2008 and then began a steady decline as the recession took hold. Though the slump officially ended in mid-2009, consumer debt continued falling through 2010.

As we can see in the chart below, consumer debt rose steadily during the inflationary 1970s, flattened briefly in the deep recession of 1982-83, and then began a steep 25-year rise. Consumer debt rose from $2 trillion in 1984 to $14 trillion in 2008 -- an extraordinary expansion, given that adjusted for inflation, that $2 trillion from 1984 would equal $4.23 trillion in today's dollars.

That is, even discounting for the effects of inflation, consumer debt more than tripled.

At $14 trillion, the debt is equivalent to the entire GDP of the U.S. That's a big number, but as the next chart demonstrates, it pales in comparison to the total debt, both public and private, racked up by the nation as a whole since the early 1980s.

If total debt owed had tracked inflation since 1984, then it would be around $20 trillion. Instead, it's more than $50 trillion.

What's striking about this long-term consumer credit chart is the modest scale of the recessionary dip in debt: The recent break from relentless expansion of debt doesn't look very significant on this chart.

Clearly, America has been on a debt binge since the mid-1980s. In constant dollars (adjusted for inflation), the nation's GDP rose from $6 trillion 1985 to $13.4 trillion in 2010 -- an increase of 223%.

If debt had risen in proportion to GDP, then the nation's total would be around $22 trillion, not $52 trillion.

Despite the variances in debt totals -- discrepancies caused by the inclusion or exclusion of small pools of consumer debt such as "other loans and advances") -- what all sources confirm is that debt hasn't declined very much. Consider mortgages and HELOCs: With several million homes already foreclosed on, and several million more in the pipeline, you'd think mortgage debt might have declined more than a meager 4% just from bank writedowns.

But mortgage debt has dropped from a housing bubble high of $10.53 trillion in 2007 to $10.12 trillion in the fourth quarter of 2010 -- not much, considering the significant decline in home prices in those years.

Consumer debt has barely moved in that time -- from $13.8 trillion in 2007 to $13.43 trillion in 2010. Revolving and nonrevolving consumer debt (credit cards and auto loans) sank from $2.55 trillion in 2007 to $2.4 trillion in 2010, but "other bank loans and advances" leaped from $237 billion to $394 billion -- a hefty $157 billion rise.

Upon closer examination of the Fed's Credit Market report issued on Feb. 7, several numbers really jump out. Conventional consumer debt (credit cards and auto loans) has been bouncing around since 2009 in a trendless fashion.

Debt fell from $2.55 trillion in 2007 to $2.406 trillion in early 2009, then popped up to $2.437 trillion in the fourth quarter of that year, only to decline again in mid-2010 to $2.411 trillion.

In effect, consumer debt has been moving up and down in a narrow band for the past two years, neither declining nor rising significantly.

Strikingly, the total consumer debt that was securitized and sold to investors has plummeted by over half-a-trillion dollars, from $683 billion in 2007 to $133 billion in late 2010. This suggests that lenders are no longer able to sell off their consumer debt accounts and are instead holding them.

Given that the banks are at risk for future losses, it should come as no surprise that, according the New York Fed report, credit card issuers slashed the number of card accounts from almost 500 million in 2008 to 380 million now -- a reduction of 23% in a few short years.

That's still a lot of cards, and we seem to be churning those accounts rather vigorously: A whopping 211 million credit card accounts were closed in 2010, and 164 million were opened.

Judging by the delinquency rates, lenders and borrowers aren't out of the woods yet: 10.8% of all debt is delinquent, down a bit from a year ago, at about $1.2 trillion. That's nearly seven times the GDP of Ireland and nearly four times the GDP of Greece.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/02/21/ ... -card-use/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One potential positive black swan that could take wing is the draining of the liquidity trap that formed during the great recession starting in 2008. A liquidity trap is a rare credit event that makes it difficult for central banks to stimulate the economy through traditional monetary policy. It is characterized by a parabolic spike in the demand for money, driven by a fear of insolvency.

For businesses, the increase in the demand for money is offset on the balance sheet by a reduction in debt, inventories, and capital investment. For the consumer, a liquidity trap induces a reduction in debt and an increase in savings. Shifting balance sheets result in reduced consumer spending. These changes in consumer and business balance sheets deepen the recession. Prior to the 2008 downturn, the last liquidity trap in the United States formed in the early 1930s. When it broke in 1933, the U.S. economy experienced a sharp, V-shaped recovery. Real growth soared for the next four years, averaging just under 10 percent a year.

In the fall of 2008, the U.S. economy fell into a liquidity trap. Demand for liquidity soared, resulting in significant shifts in the balance sheets of banks, non-financial businesses and households. The collective balance sheet adjustment resulted in an increase of roughly US$3 trillion in liquidity and a corresponding drop in business spending, inventories, and consumer spending. A liquidity trap is a little bit like a game of musical chairs, with everyone rushing to build up a limited supply of cash reserves for fear of insolvency. As that fear passes, businesses and households can be slow to relinquish their newly created cash hoards, but they eventually do.

Breaking a liquidity trap requires a banking system that is willing to lend and businesses or consumers that are willing to take risks. As the bunker mentality that served everyone so well during the recession begins to pass, the demand for cash declines. The tipping point comes when the fear of insolvency falls and is replaced by the fear that cash is becoming a depreciating asset. With commodity prices on the rise and inflation picking up both in the United States and the developing world, cash is becoming a depreciating asset.

Non-financial corporate businesses currently hold just under US$1.9 trillion in cash and other liquid assets, up from US$1.4 trillion as recent as the first quarter of 2009.

Job growth will be critical to getting households spending again. [see Blipits posts for slew of information on the realities of job growth]

As the recession deepened in 2008, consumers dramatically increased their level of savings. And like businesses, they have continued to hold on to that cash in the recovery.

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GX/glob ... 0aRCRD.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Average credit card debt per household with credit card debt: $14,743*

609.8 million credit cards held by U.S. consumers. (Source: "The Survey of Consumer Payment Choice," Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, January 2010)

Average number of credit cards held by cardholders: 3.5, as of yearend 2008 (Source: "The Survey of Consumer Payment Choice," Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, January 2010)

Average APR on new credit card offer: 14.83 percent (Source: CreditCards.com Weekly Rate Report, May 11, 2011.)

Average APR on credit card with a balance on it: 13.44 percent, as of March 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released May 2011)

Total U.S. revolving debt (98 percent of which is made up of credit card debt): $796.1 billion, as of March 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released May 2011)

Total U.S. consumer debt: $2.43 trillion, as of March 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released May 2011)

U.S. credit card 60-day delinquency rate: 3.23 percent. (Source: Fitch Ratings, January 2011)

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card- ... s-1276.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


5) The velocity of money is declining meaning less and less dollars are going around -

Notice that the velocity of money fell during the Great Depression. And from 1953 to 1980 the velocity of money was almost exactly the average of the last 100 years.

Now, why is the velocity of money slowing down? Notice the real rise in V from 1990 through about 1997. Growth in M2 (see the above chart) was falling during most of that period, yet the economy was growing. That means that velocity had to rise faster than normal. Why? Primarily because of the financial innovations introduced in the early ’90s, like securitizations, CDOs, etc. It is financial innovation that spurs above-trend growth in velocity.

And now we are watching the Great Unwind of financial innovations, as they were pursued to excess and caused a credit crisis. In principle, a CDO or subprime asset-backed security should be a good thing. And in the beginning they were. But then standards got loose, greed kicked in, and Wall Street began to game the system. End of game.

The financial innovation that drove velocity to new highs is no longer part of the equation. Its absence is slowing things down. If the money supply hadn’t risen significantly to offset that slowdown in velocity, the economy would have been in a much deeper recession, if not a depression.

They have pumped a great deal of money (liquidity) into the economy. Normally, banks would take that money and multiply it by lending it out (through fractional reserve banking at a potential 9-times factor), increasing velocity and the overall money supply. In the past, the more the Fed increased the money supply, the more banks lent.

But today bank lending is still falling at an average of 15% annually, so far this year.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 9&p=203871" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...of course the main reason is people are saturated in debt and the money is cycled right back to the banks and destroyed via debt payments

6) The banks have slowed the ramp down in order to maintain control -

There are roughly six to seven million folks who are no longer paying on the mortgages on their homes, so if we do some really simple arithmetic, it suggests in the aggregate as much as $100 billion of annualized consumer income is being freed up to find its way into consumer spending elsewhere in the economy, instead of going towards the satisfaction of housing debt..., the real question is if, or when, does the foreclosure mechanism begin to kick back into gear and then accelerate?

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 40#p199494" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ALL of this leaving us in a situation of declining dollars via debt payments, saving, credit destruction, debt reduction (dollar destruction), etc.....while the banks speculate in commodities. Now how do the words of the prophets look again????

The final maka-feke I wish to mention today is one which can crush our self-esteem, ruin relationships, and leave us in desperate circumstances. It is the maka-feke of excessive debt. The day of reckoning WILL come if we have continually lived beyond our means.

- our beloved Prophet, President Thomas S. Monson in his address “True to the Faith” during the April 2006 General Conference

In spite of the teachings of the Church from its earliest days until today, members sometimes fall victim to many unwise and foolish financial practices. Some continue to spend, thinking that somehow the money will become available. Somehow they will survive.

- Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin stated in the April 2004 General Conference in his address “Earthly Debts, Heavenly Debts”

I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage.

- Priesthood session of the October 1998 conference President Gordon B. Hinckley

...if hyperinflation is the end point....one is best burying themselves in debt purchasing precious metals.....which is opposite of what is recommended by the prophets.

Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order.

So many of our people are living on the very edge of their incomes. In fact, some are living on borrowings.

We have witnessed in recent weeks wide and fearsome swings in the markets of the world. The economy is a fragile thing. A stumble in the economy in Jakarta or Moscow can immediately affect the entire world. It can eventually reach down to each of us as individuals. There is a portent of stormy weather ahead to which we had better give heed.

I hope with all my heart that we shall never slip into a depression. I am a child of the Great Depression of the thirties. I finished the university in 1932, when unemployment in this area exceeded 33 percent.

I repeat, I hope we will never again see such a depression. But I am troubled by the huge consumer installment debt which hangs over the people of the nation, including our own people. In March 1997 that debt totaled $1.2 trillion, which represented a 7 percent increase over the previous year.

In December of 1997, 55 to 60 million households in the United States carried credit card balances. These balances averaged more than $7,000 and cost $1,000 per year in interest and fees. Consumer debt as a percentage of disposable income rose from 16.3 percent in 1993 to 19.3 percent in 1996.

Everyone knows that every dollar borrowed carries with it the penalty of paying interest. When money cannot be repaid, then bankruptcy follows. There were 1,350,118 bankruptcies in the United States last year. This represented a 50 percent increase from 1992. In the second quarter of this year, nearly 362,000 persons filed for bankruptcy, a record number for a three-month period.

We are beguiled by seductive advertising. Television carries the enticing invitation to borrow up to 125 percent of the value of one’s home. But no mention is made of interest.

President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the April 1938 general conference, said from this pulpit: “Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1938, 103).

Since the beginnings of the Church, the Lord has spoken on this matter of debt. To Martin Harris through revelation He said: “Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage” (D&C 19:35).

President Heber J. Grant spoke repeatedly on this matter from this pulpit. He said: “If there is any one thing that will bring peace and contentment into the human heart, and into the family, it is to live within our means. And if there is any one thing that is grinding and discouraging and disheartening, it is to have debts and obligations that one cannot meet” (Gospel Standards, comp. G. Homer Durham [1941], 111).

- Priesthood session of the October 1998 conference President Gordon B. Hinckley

President Heber J. Grant said, “From my earliest recollections, from the days of Brigham Young until now, I have listened to men standing in the pulpit … urging the people not to run into debt; and I believe that the great majority of all our troubles today is caused through the failure to carry out that counsel.”

President Ezra Taft Benson said, “Do not leave yourself or your family unprotected against financial storms. … Build up savings.”

President Harold B. Lee taught, “Not only should we teach men to get out of debt but we should teach them likewise to stay out of debt.”

President Gordon B. Hinckley declared: “Many of our people are living on the very edge of their incomes. In fact, some are living on borrowings. …

“… I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage.”

My brothers and sisters, many have heeded this prophetic counsel. They live within their means, they honor the debts they have incurred, and they strive to reduce the burden they owe to others. We congratulate those who are doing so, for the day will come when they will reap the blessings of their efforts and understand the value of this inspired counsel.

- Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin stated in the April 2004 General Conference in his address “Earthly Debts, Heavenly Debts”

Necessary debt should be incurred only after careful, thoughtful prayer and after obtaining the best possible advice. We need the discipline to stay well within our ability to pay. Wisely we have been counseled to avoid debt as we would avoid the plague.

- Elder L. Tom Perry in the October 1995 General Conference in his address “If Ye Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear”

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

- Thomas Jefferson

....due to interest costs for debt

I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually.

I testify that not many years hence the earth will be cleansed.

- President Ezra Taft Benson’s talk “I Testify” in the October 1988 General Conference address

Gradually build a financial reserve, and use it for emergencies only. If you save a little money regularly, you will be surprised how much accumulates over time.

President Gordon B. Hinckley has taught: “Set your houses in order. If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts” ("To the Boys and to the Men," Ensign, Nov. 1998, 54).

http://www.providentliving.org/content/ ... -1,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....of course I'm DEAD WRONG as you believe the Lord's servants would steer us wrong by having us save and set aside money for a rainy day and get out of debt when the money is going to become worthless and the debt burden easily taken from our shoulders.....

I feel quite confident in saying - There will be a bitter period of deflation prior to the control structure going up in smoke and the moment of hyperinflation/barter just prior to the establishment of Zion and whatever is decided then for currency (could be backed against land or simply against the pool assets consecrated with the implementation of the Law of Consecration....possibilities abound with a righteous people).

[LoveIsTruth]

Your fundamental premise is wrong.

Fiat debt based currencies would be inherently deflationary if the default was allowed to occur. In other words, under such system money does go out of existence upon repayment of the debt. But the point you are missing is that the government is the biggest borrower, and it has no intentions of repaying the debts. Therefore monetary contractions of which you speak cannot happen, because government debts are NEVER repaid; instead government debt expands forever until the currency is destroyed via hyperinflation. This is the key point you are missing.

Last 100 years are good illustration of that: US dollar, being a fiat debt based currency has been inflated to the point it has lost over 94% of its purchasing power. And because government debt will never be repaid, this inflation will continue, until the purchasing power of dollar approaches the value of the paper it is printed on,-- the inevitable destiny of all fiat currencies.

[Jason]

Your fundamental premise is wrong.

Fiat debt based currencies would be inherently deflationary if the default was allowed to occur. In other words, under such system money does go out of existence upon repayment of the debt. But the point you are missing is that the government is the biggest borrower, and it has no intentions of repaying the debts. Therefore monetary contractions of which you speak cannot happen, because government debts are NEVER repaid; instead government debt expands forever until the currency is destroyed via hyperinflation. This is the key point you are missing.

Last 100 years are good illustration of that: US dollar, being a fiat debt based currency has been inflated to the point it has lost over 94% of its purchasing power. And because government debt will never be repaid, this inflation will continue, until the purchasing power of dollar approaches the value of the paper it is printed on,-- the inevitable destiny of all fiat currencies.

LOL....tell that to the people of Greece (or Ireland or soon to be Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc) concerning their "government" debt!

...you might also compare the levels of government versus private debt.....and the reality is that government debt is private debt.....but look at the scale of the two (Z1 report - latest & greatest released on this coming Thursday)....and I'll give you a clue - home mortgages alone are nearly equal to total US government debt.

...as well as WHO is in control -

"The three largest U.S. banks account for 32 percent of total banking assets in the United States, in comparison to 46 percent for the three largest in Japan, 58 percent in Canada, 63 percent in the UK, 65 percent in France, 70 percent in Germany, 71 percent in Italy, and 76 percent in Switzerland. And total banking assets are 461 percent of GDP in the UK, 178 percent in Germany, and 820 percent in Switzerland."

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/tim-ge ... temic-risk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....also you are equating the loss of 94% purchasing power completely to the belief that government debt will never be repaid (also ignoring annual interest costs which is deflationary).....when government is just a small portion of the increase in debt (money) that caused the 94% drop in purchasing power.

[LoveIsTruth]

LOL....tell that to the people of Greece (or Ireland or soon to be Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc) concerning their "government" debt!

Government debts of the countries in question will never be repaid. Therefore inflation is happening in each one of them.

...you might also compare the levels of government versus private debt.....and the reality is that government debt is private debt.....but look at the scale of the two....

Governments are some of the biggest debtors on the planet. They have no intention of repaying their debts, as a rule.

....also you are equating the loss of 94% purchasing power completely to the belief that government debt will never be repaid (also ignoring annual interest costs which is deflationary).....when government is just a small portion of the increase in debt (money) that caused the 94% drop in purchasing power.

Once government debt is contracted, it begins to grow exponentially because of compound interest. It will never be repaid, yet government keeps borrowing more. Private citizen would not be allowed to do that, but the government does it always. That is the key difference. Thus government is ultimately the engine of hyperinflation under a fiat system, because it will not pay it back, but will continue to borrow, (and Fed will continue to lend, because of political reasons) until the currency is destroyed via hyperinflation.

[Jason]

LOL....tell that to the people of Greece (or Ireland or soon to be Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc) concerning their "government" debt!

Government debts of the countries in question will never be repaid. Therefore inflation is happening in each one of them.

Any proof???

fyi - cash is getting harder and harder to come by in Greece -
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fa588866-8dc1 ... z1OVeZe2vi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...you might also compare the levels of government versus private debt.....and the reality is that government debt is private debt.....but look at the scale of the two....

Governments are some of the biggest debtors on the planet. They have no intention of repaying their debts, as a rule.

Any proof???

....also you are equating the loss of 94% purchasing power completely to the belief that government debt will never be repaid (also ignoring annual interest costs which is deflationary).....when government is just a small portion of the increase in debt (money) that caused the 94% drop in purchasing power.

Once government debt is contracted, it begins to grow exponentially because of compound interest. It will never be repaid, yet government keeps borrowing more. Private citizen would not be allowed to do that, but the government does it always. That is the key difference. Thus government is ultimately the engine of hyperinflation under a fiat system, because it will not pay it back, but will continue to borrow, (and Fed will continue to lend, because of political reasons) until the currency is destroyed via hyperinflation.

fyi - the interest gets paid every year via taxes! Also the debt has to grow because there isn't enough money in circulation to satisfy the debt. If the debt doesn't grow fast enough you slip into a deflationary spiral....if the growth completely stops and contracts then you are talking Hyper-deflation!

...your premise is fine....but under that condition/assumption you are looking at multiple decades prior to hyperinflation as the private side collapses....that is unless you can demonstrate that government debt is growing faster than private debt is contracting???? And don't forget to leave out the interest component that is subtracted from the circulation pool....

The troubling thing about these figures is not that private debt is considerably larger than the debt levels of the federal government, or that federal debt is a relatively low percentage of the total. Theoretically, this should be a good thing. The main problem is that the massive increase in debt levels has not been followed by similar rises in income, proportionally speaking. This seems to point to a sad truth: that a major part of our past growth was fictitious, built on excessive private borrowing, which, enhanced via securitization and derivatives, created enormous amounts of wealth that fueled excessive spending with money that had not been earned. We borrowed more to spend more, deluding ourselves that this amounted to sustainable economic growth.

But the real shocker is that the total debt (public and private) mentioned above pales in comparison with the debt created by derivatives, a private sector invention. According to the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, the notional value of derivatives held by commercial banks as of the third quarter of 2008 was $175 trillion. Other estimates suggest a much higher figure. If these derivatives go the wrong way, no bailout or stimulus will be large enough to get us out of this crisis. The potential havoc that private sector debt is able to cause the economy – via derivatives or other innovative instruments designed in part to circumvent regulations – is, as we are seeing, astounding. The question is: what should we fear more, government debt or private sector debt? Right now, I am more afraid of what the latter has done than any policies supported by the former.

http://picker.typepad.com/bailouts/2009 ... prit-.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....a little dated but pertinent to our conversation/debate/bantering...

[LoveIsTruth]

You have not disproved (neither you can, because it's true), that:

• a) Government has neither the intent no ability to repay its debts (that grow exponentially)
  
  b) Fed will continue create new debt for the government (under political pressure from the government) until the currency is destroyed by hyperinflation.

Because when (a) and (b) are true more and more money get into circulation.

And since (a) and (b) are true, my point is proven, that the dollar WILL be destroyed by hyperinflation. Unless you can disprove (a) and (b), I consider you defeated in this debate. And if you do not accept that conclusion, it does not matter, economic reality will devastatingly and utterly prove you wrong within 2 or 3 years as the dollar loses most or all of it's purchasing power. And unless you can disprove (a) and (b) I see no point in continuing this conversation, because any reasonable person can see that you have already been defeated and proven wrong over and over again.

Cheers, my friend. A few more month, and reality (not just me), will prove you wrong, and your folly in this point will be evident to all!

[Jason]

You have not disproved (neither you can, because it's true), that:

• a) Government has neither the intent no ability to repay its debts (that grow exponentially)
  
  Love to see some evidence on that "exponential" increase in government debt.....especially your definition of exponential....
  
  b) Fed will continue create new debt for the government (under political pressure from the government) until the currency is destroyed by hyperinflation.
  LOL....oh yeah those politicians have complete control over the bankers!

Because when (a) and (b) are true more and more money get into circulation.

And since (a) and (b) are true, my point is proven, that the dollar WILL be destroyed by hyperinflation. Unless you can disprove (a) and (b), I consider you defeated in this debate. And if you do not accept that conclusion, it does not matter, economic reality will devastatingly and utterly prove you wrong within 2 or 3 years as the dollar loses most or all of it's purchasing power. And unless you can disprove (a) and (b) I see no point in continuing this conversation, because any reasonable person can see that you have already been defeated and proven wrong over and over again.

Cheers, my friend. A few more month, and reality (not just me), will prove you wrong, and your folly in this point will be evident to all!

LOL....like its my job to disprove....when you don't provide any supporting evidence! ....and any evidence I provide is just ignored and hypothesized away.

....it gets even more hilarious when you make comments like - "I consider you defeated in this debate".....this isn't high school debate team.....or maybe it is....LOL!

...and then you go on to talk about economic reality in the next 2 to 3 years when your hypothesis is based on government debt overwhelming private debt.....when government debt just barely surpassed residential housing debt.....absolutely hilarious!!!

....and then go on to talk about the "reasonable person".....as if it couldn't get better!

Cheers indeed! Thank you for the gut rolling laugh!!!

[LoveIsTruth]

Love to see some evidence on that "exponential" increase in government debt.....especially your definition of exponential....

Compound interest grows exponentially. http://www.usdebtclock.org/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....absolutely hilarious!!!
Thank you for the gut rolling laugh!!!

Laugh it up. Ether 12:26. http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12.26?lang=eng#25

[Jason]

Love to see some evidence on that "exponential" increase in government debt.....especially your definition of exponential....

Compound interest grows exponentially. http://www.usdebtclock.org/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....notice that number in the middle that says US Total Debt...in the $55.3 trillion and change....

....then notice the top left that says US National Debt (government debt)...$14.4 trillion and change...

...according to your logic/argument - hyperinflation won't hit until US National Debt.....takes over US Total debt....which just barely surpassed Mortgage Debt....$13.2 trillion and change

...even combined state and local debt barely surpasses consumer debt....

....and yes compound interest does grow exponentially and the money for interest is never created.....thus that is your deflationary fuel for the Day of Reckoning on debt!

....absolutely hilarious!!!
Thank you for the gut rolling laugh!!!

Laugh it up. Ether 12:26. http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12.26?lang=eng#25

LOL....yeah you certainly qualify for the meek spot with all of your derogatory comments.....thanks for the 2nd round....my cheeks hurt now though!

[LoveIsTruth]

...according to your logic/argument - hyperinflation won't hit until US National Debt.....takes over US Total debt....which just barely surpassed Mortgage Debt....$13.2 trillion and change

...even combined state and local debt barely surpasses consumer debt....

....and yes compound interest does grow exponentially and the money for interest is never created.....thus that is your deflationary fuel for the Day of Reckoning on debt!

Under a fiat, debt based system, the only way money goes out of existence is when debt is repaid. Consumer debt CANNOT be repaid. Even if you repossess the items in question and sell them, it will not be enough to repay the debts. This means that the money cannot be repaid, and thus cannot go out of existence. So both public and private debts cannot be repaid, and therefore they both create inflation. And when private citizens can no longer borrow, the government will continue to borrow, until the currency is destroyed by hyperinflation. (It is interesting, that neither private, nor public debt, under a fiat, debt based system can mathematically be repaid, therefore money cannot go out of existence, but is ever expanding, which inevitably leads to hyperinflation.)


This is the point: You yourself said that for money to be taken out of circulation a debt MUST be repaid, otherwise money CONTINUES to circulate. And you yourself said that money CANNOT be repaid. Thus put these two statements together, and you will see why money supply is ever expanding, until the currency is destroyed by hyperinflation.

[Jason]

...according to your logic/argument - hyperinflation won't hit until US National Debt.....takes over US Total debt....which just barely surpassed Mortgage Debt....$13.2 trillion and change

...even combined state and local debt barely surpasses consumer debt....

....and yes compound interest does grow exponentially and the money for interest is never created.....thus that is your deflationary fuel for the Day of Reckoning on debt!

Under a fiat, debt based system, the only way money goes out of existence is when debt is repaid. Consumer debt CANNOT be repaid. Even if you reposes the items in question and sell them, it will not be enough to repay the debts. This means that the money cannot be repaid, and thus cannot go out of existence. So both public and private debts cannot be repaid, and therefore they both create inflation. And when private citizens can no longer borrow, the government will continue to borrow, until the currency is destroyed by hyperinflation. (It is interesting, that neither private, nor public debt, under a fiat, debt based system can mathematically be repaid, therefore money cannot go out of existence, but is ever expanding, which inevitably leads to hyperinflation.)


This is the point: You yourself said that for money to be taken out of circulation a debt MUST be repaid, otherwise money CONTINUES to circulate. And you yourself said that money CANNOT be repaid. Thus put these two statements together, and you will see why money supply is ever expanding, until the currency is destroyed by hyperinflation.

Wrong...if the assets are taken in exchange for the debt (default)....the debt (IOU) is wiped out (money destroyed)...or in the case of unsecured debt - simply written off

....also write-offs and reductions (like only paying back 50 cents on the dollar) on secured/unsecured debt...and even complete debt forgiveness (although rare)

Well so much for that theory.....next???

By the way how's the government borrowing going with the debt ceiling??? Oh yeah -

Quantifying The Treasury's Plunder Of Retirement Accounts: $80 Billion Between The G- And CSRD Funds Since Debt Ceiling Breach

In other words, retirement funds have seen a "disinvestment" of nearly $80 billion in the past 3 weeks just to make space for further funding of bloated government, defense spending, and healthcare benefits.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/quanti ... nds-debt-c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...also quit twisting my statements into something unrecognizable please!

[LoveIsTruth]

Wrong...if the assets are taken in exchange for the debt (default)....the debt (IOU) is wiped out (money destroyed)...or in the case of unsecured debt - simply written off

I'll give you an example: A consumer borrowed $30,000 for a new car. He defaults on his debt, and the bank took his car and sold it for $20,000 to pay his debt. The problem is that $30,000 was put (spent) into circulation by the original purchase, and only $20,000 was destroyed by the repayment. The bank cannot trace every one of those $10,000 that were spent into the economy, they are circulating far and wide, being used by other people now. Thus, even after the bank repossesses the car, $10,000 of new money is still left circulating. It is even worse with unsecured debt. This happens constantly, because as you yourself admit, it is mathematically impossible, (under this fraudulent, fiat, debt based system) for all to repay their debts. Thus defaults, actually lead to expansion of money supply, not contraction.