I can't defend my property from looters in Utah?

[JerL]

While watching the 11 A.M. news conference about the fire in Herriman, Utah an Officer (I'm afraid I don't know which officer is speaking) is discussing the evacuation and reentry to the evacuation area. A reporter asks at the 5:02 minute mark if people can use force, or weapons to defend their property. He states that there is a "state law that strictly prohibits that, don't do that". My question is which law is he referring to? Is he right, this has me perturbed to say the least. I understand there isn't much risk perhaps for looting but it is the principle that bothers me.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=12497453

[Original_Intent]

I'd prefer to defend my property and deal with the law when and if necessary.

[bobhenstra]

"If" you've caught someone in your house, you feel frightened and endangered and your armed, shoot him! Make sure he has at least one foot inside the house. And if necessary, pull a knife out of the kitchen drawer and throw it down beside the perp. Of course its your knife, but no questions will be ask, your protecting yourself and your family!

But, if somebody is breaking into a shed out back, don't shoot that guy! Call the police and let them handle it, mean while your standing in a safe place with your weapons at the ready. If he makes a move on the house and you have to shoot him, just drag a foot in the door.

Very best deterrent we've ever had is a well trained Chesapeake retriever, we called ours Jessie, all 4 of them through the years! Chessies are territorial dogs, they know their territory and who belongs in "their" family, "we" belonged to our Jessie!

Female chessies though a bit stubborn, are the easiest to train and live with. No looter in his right mind will take on a well trained chessie--And "boyfriends" lol, they pay real close attention--no sneaking around our house!

Bob

[ndjili]

I believe it's the new liability laws. To which even a Chesapeake Bay Retriever could get someone in hot water, if the dog actually bites or hurts someone. I had a friend tell me about it a few weeks ago. They were studying it in one of his classes.

Just on a side note last year I saw someone take a gas powered weed eater out of my yard in broad daylight and ran out and got a description of the guy and the license plate number off his car. A neighbor also saw him. They found the guy and the weed eater but I didnt have a copy of the serial number from the weed eater and wasnt allowed to claim it.

[durangout]

"If" you've caught someone in your house, you feel frightened and endangered and your armed, shoot him! Make sure he has at least one foot inside the house. And if necessary, pull a knife out of the kitchen drawer and throw it down beside the perp. Of course its your knife, but no questions will be ask, your protecting yourself and your family!

But, if somebody is breaking into a shed out back, don't shoot that guy! Call the police and let them handle it, mean while your standing in a safe place with your weapons at the ready. If he makes a move on the house and you have to shoot him, just drag a foot in the door.

Very best deterrent we've ever had is a well trained Chesapeake retriever, we called ours Jessie, all 4 of them through the years! Chessies are territorial dogs, they know their territory and who belongs in "their" family, "we" belonged to our Jessie!

Female chessies though a bit stubborn, are the easiest to train and live with. No looter in his right mind will take on a well trained chessie--And "boyfriends" lol, they pay real close attention--no sneaking around our house!

Bob

Your post is tounge-in-cheek I presume? (i.e. planting weapons and moving bodies of people you attempted to murder?) That's called a felony and will earn you the title "wife" at the local state correctionaly facility.

[durangout]

It is legal in Tx but as i remember from CCW class, it is only legal to use deadly force if someone is in danger.

[Original_Intent]

The "one foot in the house" is largely a myth. It is a lot more important that the perp appeared to be presenting a credible threat than where his foot was. For instance, if you shoot him in the back as he is running out of the house, even if you drop him, and even if he had a knife, you are in big trouble. Likewise, planting a weapon on someone that you have shot in self defense is a very bad idea.

If someone is endangering you or your family, or anyone for that matter, do what is necessary to end the situation, if that means killing the perp, then that is what you do, and you stick to the truth when you report it to the police. Anything you do to "enhance" the justification for what you did is just asking for trouble.

[bobhenstra]

"If" you've caught someone in your house, you feel frightened and endangered and your armed, shoot him! Make sure he has at least one foot inside the house. And if necessary, pull a knife out of the kitchen drawer and throw it down beside the perp. Of course its your knife, but no questions will be ask, your protecting yourself and your family!

But, if somebody is breaking into a shed out back, don't shoot that guy! Call the police and let them handle it, mean while your standing in a safe place with your weapons at the ready. If he makes a move on the house and you have to shoot him, just drag a foot in the door.

Very best deterrent we've ever had is a well trained Chesapeake retriever, we called ours Jessie, all 4 of them through the years! Chessies are territorial dogs, they know their territory and who belongs in "their" family, "we" belonged to our Jessie!

Female chessies though a bit stubborn, are the easiest to train and live with. No looter in his right mind will take on a well trained chessie--And "boyfriends" lol, they pay real close attention--no sneaking around our house!

Bob

Your post is tounge-in-cheek I presume? (i.e. planting weapons and moving bodies of people you attempted to murder?) That's called a felony and will earn you the title "wife" at the local state correctionaly facility.

I attempted to "murder"??? You remind me of the perps who with sharpened screwdrivers were shot robbing passengers an a commuter train in NYC, one of the passengers shot the perps, and "the shooter" was charged, not the robbers! Even though there were plenty of witnesses! And the fact a sharpened screwdriver is as deadly as a bullet! Incredible, just incredible!

B.S., as long as the knife isn't on the body it can't be proven it was planted, you'll notice I said "near" the body. simply admit its your knife, "your" knife in "your" house! And it isn't murder if your protecting yourself or your family. When it comes to protecting my family, all legal shenanigans (and thats exactly what they are!) go out the window! I wonder, you legal beagles, you seem more than willing to take the chance of your wife and daughters being raped and killed because you "seem" to respect or perhaps fear the corrupt legal system greater? "NOT" in my home!! I think you're damn cowards, in fact I think thats why you are lawyers!

As far as the dog goes, you'll notice I said "deterrent" NOT "attack dog!" But since the perp is on "her" property, "she'll" simply rightly claim he attacked her, in fact she'll be willing to appear in court to testify, she'll even be willing to "point" out the perp, and he better not move a muscle or so much as blink when she does!

Bob

[durangout]

"If" you've caught someone in your house, you feel frightened and endangered and your armed, shoot him! Make sure he has at least one foot inside the house. And if necessary, pull a knife out of the kitchen drawer and throw it down beside the perp. Of course its your knife, but no questions will be ask, your protecting yourself and your family!

But, if somebody is breaking into a shed out back, don't shoot that guy! Call the police and let them handle it, mean while your standing in a safe place with your weapons at the ready. If he makes a move on the house and you have to shoot him, just drag a foot in the door.

Very best deterrent we've ever had is a well trained Chesapeake retriever, we called ours Jessie, all 4 of them through the years! Chessies are territorial dogs, they know their territory and who belongs in "their" family, "we" belonged to our Jessie!

Female chessies though a bit stubborn, are the easiest to train and live with. No looter in his right mind will take on a well trained chessie--And "boyfriends" lol, they pay real close attention--no sneaking around our house!

Bob

Your post is tounge-in-cheek I presume? (i.e. planting weapons and moving bodies of people you attempted to murder?) That's called a felony and will earn you the title "wife" at the local state correctionaly facility.

I attempted to "murder"??? You remind me of the perps who with sharpened screwdrivers were shot robbing passengers an a commuter train in NYC, one of the passengers shot the perps, and "the shooter" was charged, not the robbers! Even though there were plenty of witnesses! And the fact a sharpened screwdriver is as deadly as a bullet! Incredible, just incredible!

B.S., as long as the knife isn't on the body it can't be proven it was planted, you'll notice I said "near" the body. simply admit its your knife, "your" knife in "your" house! And it isn't murder if your protecting yourself or your family. When it comes to protecting my family, all legal shenanigans (and thats exactly what they are!) go out the window! I wonder, you legal beagles, you seem more than willing to take the chance of your wife and daughters being raped and killed because you "seem" to respect or perhaps fear the corrupt legal system greater? "NOT" in my home!! I think you're damn cowards, in fact I think thats why you are lawyers!

As far as the dog goes, you'll notice I said "deterrent" NOT "attack dog!" But since the perp is on "her" property, "she'll" simply rightly claim he attacked her, in fact she'll be willing to appear in court to testify, she'll even be willing to "point" out the perp, and he better not move a muscle or so much as blink when she does!

Bob

My point was if you shoot someone for stealing from you, you will be charged with attempted murder. I believe in a VERY strong defencive posture. Just ask my .40 cal concealed friend that goes with me wherever I go.

[ChelC]

I'm reading a book right now called Peace Like a River, where one of the characters has become a fugitive after defending home and family. It's a really good book thus far. It's true you may be called a murderer defending your home, but I don't believe you are one.

As far as being covered legally... our laws favor the guilty scum of the earth.

[armedtotheteeth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc
So in your opinions is Joe Horn a murderer, hero or something in between?

[ChelC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc
So in your opinions is Joe Horn a murderer, hero or something in between?

I was familiar with the story, but hadn't heard the call before. I have a couple thoughts, the first being that Mr. Horn would have been better off not confronting anyone. The second being, if it were my own husband, I know he wouldn't have allowed anyone to get away either. I don't really blame him for trying to stop the burglars, in fact we need more people who refuse to cower.

At the point where he went outside, it's hard to say exactly how the situation played out. If he shot them in the back over some stolen items, I'd say he went too far - but I'd still be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt were I sitting on a jury.

[bobhenstra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc
So in your opinions is Joe Horn a murderer, hero or something in between?

I was familiar with the story, but hadn't heard the call before. I have a couple thoughts, the first being that Mr. Horn would have been better off not confronting anyone. The second being, if it were my own husband, I know he wouldn't have allowed anyone to get away either. I don't really blame him for trying to stop the burglars, in fact we need more people who refuse to cower.

At the point where he went outside, it's hard to say exactly how the situation played out. If he shot them in the back over some stolen items, I'd say he went too far - but I'd still be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt were I sitting on a jury.

The real point being; The time will shortly come when everything we own is a necessity, and it won't be wise to let a burglar take what he desires. While protecting your family and valuables (food storage, emergency items) might "now" be against some stupid idiotic "law," the time is very near when shooting and burying a bad guy will be common place.

If he's in my house he's a dead man, simple as that, I don't shoot to wound! If he's in my shed, "AND" he somehow got past my Jessie, which is highly unlikely! He'll have a very big 12 gauge pointed at him by me, when he exits that shed, he'll learn very quickly I'm someone he'll not want to mess with, I'm sure he'll obey my every command, the laser dot right on his--- He may be brandishing the machete I store in my shed---- It may be near him-- after, he tries something stupid---

The word gets out, the people in that (my) house, on my property are not to be messed with!

We'll be a tough spiritual people, or we'll be cowardly wimps and dead! Modern day sons of Helaman, protecting our mothers, wives and children, by not allowing ourselves to be killed, or the husbands and fathers who deserted their families to be rounded up and burned alive, our choice!

Bob

[JerL]

Utah State Constitution

Article I, Section 6. [Right to bear arms.]
The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.

[JerL]

63K-4-405. Prohibition of restrictions on and confiscation of a firearm or ammunition during an emergency.
(1) As used in this section:
(a) (i) "Confiscate" means for an individual in Utah to intentionally deprive another of a privately owned firearm.
(ii) "Confiscate" does not include the taking of a firearm from an individual:
(A) in self-defense;
(B) possessing a firearm while the individual is committing a felony or misdemeanor; or
(C) who may not, under state or federal law, possess the firearm.
(b) "Firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9).
(2) During a declared state of emergency or local emergency under this chapter:
(a) neither the governor nor an agency of a governmental entity or political subdivision of the state may impose restrictions, which were not in force prior to the declared state of emergency, on the lawful possession, transfer, sale, transport, storage, display, or use of a firearm or ammunition; and
(b) an individual, while acting or purporting to act on behalf of the state or a political subdivision of the state, may not confiscate a privately owned firearm of another individual.
(3) A law or regulation passed during a declared state of emergency that does not relate specifically to the lawful possession or use of a firearm and that has attached criminal penalties may not be used to justify the confiscation of a firearm from an individual acting in defense of self, property, or others when on:
(a) the individual's private property; or
(b) the private property of another as an invitee.
(4) (a) An individual who has a firearm confiscated in violation of Subsection (2) may bring a civil action in a court having the appropriate jurisdiction:
(i) for damages, in the maximum amount of $10,000, against a person who violates Subsection (2);
(ii) for a civil penalty, in the amount of $5,000 per violation, against a person who violates Subsection (2); and
(iii) for return of the confiscated firearm.
(b) As used in this Subsection (4), "person" means an individual, the governmental entity on whose behalf the individual is acting or purporting to act, or both the individual and the governmental entity.
(5) (a) A law enforcement officer shall not be subject to disciplinary action for refusing to confiscate a firearm under this section if:
(i) ordered or directed to do so by a superior officer; and
(ii) by obeying the order or direction, the law enforcement officer would be committing a violation of this section.
(b) For purposes of this Subsection (5), disciplinary action might include:
(i) dismissal, suspension, or demotion;
(ii) loss of or decrease in benefits, pay, privileges or conditions of employment; and
(iii) any type of written or electronic indication, permanent or temporary, on the officer's personnel record of the officer's refusal to obey the unlawful order.
(6) (a) If a law enforcement officer commits a violation of this section, the officer's liability in an action brought under Subsection (4)(a) is limited to 5% of the damages and civil

penalty allowed under Subsection (4)(a) if the officer can show by clear and convincing evidence that the officer was obeying a direct and unlawful order from a superior officer or authority.
(b) The balance of the damages and civil penalty, the remaining 95%, shall be assessed against the superior officer or authority who ordered or directed the confiscation in violation of this section.

Enacted by Chapter 262, 2008 General Session

[JerL]

Utah Code
Title 76 Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 2 Principles of Criminal Responsibility
Section 406 Force in defense of property -- Affirmative defense.


76-2-406. Force in defense of property -- Affirmative defense.
(1) A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent or terminate another person's criminal interference with real property or personal property:
(a) lawfully in the person's possession;
(b) lawfully in the possession of a member of the person's immediate family; or
(c) belonging to a person whose property the person has a legal duty to protect.
(2) In determining reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact shall, in addition to any other factors, consider the following factors:
(a) the apparent or perceived extent of the damage to the property;
(b) property damage previously caused by the other person;
(c) threats of personal injury or damage to property that have been made previously by the other person; and
(d) any patterns of abuse or violence between the person and the other person.

Amended by Chapter 377, 2010 General Session

[JerL]

Title 76 Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 2 Principles of Criminal Responsibility
Section 407 Deadly force in defense of persons on real property.


76-2-407. Deadly force in defense of persons on real property.
(1) A person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury against another in his defense of persons on real property other than his habitation if:
(a) he is in lawful possession of the real property;
(b) he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's trespass onto the real property;
(c) the trespass is made or attempted by use of force or in a violent and tumultuous manner; and
(d) (i) the person reasonably believes that the trespass is attempted or made for the purpose of committing violence against any person on the real property and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent personal violence; or
(ii) the person reasonably believes that the trespass is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a forcible felony as defined in Section 76-2-402 that poses imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury to a person on the real property and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of that forcible felony.
(2) The person using deadly force in defense of persons on real property under Subsection (1) is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the trespass or attempted trespass is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or for the purpose of committing a forcible felony.

Enacted by Chapter 273, 2002 General Session

[JerL]

The officer was lying outright about a law that prohibits us from defending ourselves.

[NoGreaterLove]

The officer was lying outright about a law that prohibits us from defending ourselves.

You are only allowed to use deadly force if your life or someone else life is in danger of serious physical injury or death. You can not use deadly force if those circumstances are not present.

[JerL]

Actually there are a multitude of reasons deadly force can be used. I think by listing as many relevant Utah codes I tried to lay that point out, and end the speculation. The officer in the video clip says there is a law that specifically outlaws the ability to protect your property from looters. This is completely untrue. Also a friend of ours asked a Utah Highway patrolman about what he said and the patrolman said it was untrue.