"A Desolating Sickness"- Pornography

[Fiannan]

I guess the reason I asked about women is that it seems that almost all the posters here frame the porn issue into husbands using porn and wives suffering. That is rather simplistic as there are many, many women who access porn either behind closed doors, or with their husbands. I seriously fear that as we discuss the issue in these terms we are allowing what one could call a "feminist virus" to enter into LDS homes in which young women who actually might be sheltered form porn in LDS families will get the idea that all these LDS males accessing porn just proves that men are actually depraved creatures. We might actually be creating a climate of anti-male hostility with these girls in which they will distrust males, feel that they may as well look at porn too in order to gain equality with males, or feel the female alternative might actually be preferable.

[LukeAir2008]

I guess the reason I asked about women is that it seems that almost all the posters here frame the porn issue into husbands using porn and wives suffering. That is rather simplistic as there are many, many women who access porn either behind closed doors, or with their husbands. I seriously fear that as we discuss the issue in these terms we are allowing what one could call a "feminist virus" to enter into LDS homes in which young women who actually might be sheltered form porn in LDS families will get the idea that all these LDS males accessing porn just proves that men are actually depraved creatures. We might actually be creating a climate of anti-male hostility with these girls in which they will distrust males, feel that they may as well look at porn too in order to gain equality with males, or feel the female alternative might actually be preferable.

The world of filth is now a level playing field. The one thing that kept women generally out of the adult video stores and book stores was the embarrassment factor. Women didn't want to be viewed publically as filthy depraved beasts. Of course those who are exposed to pornography become hardened and are then quite happy to discuss and even boast about their viewing habits. At my place of work we had a lady in her late fifties, a cleaner, who would boast about her addiction to pornography and webcams etc. Another young woman who came to us for work experience at the age of 15 boasted about her pornography addiction and how it had made her bisexual. When I was serving with the miltary in Germany in 93-96, every house on the base had hard core porn hard wired right into the home via the aerial socket. I was sleeping on the couch one Friday night and my wife decided to go through the channels to see what was on TV. She got more than she ever bargained for and still gets flashbacks to this day. That was from a few seconds viewing of filth.

The internet has now opened up a wicked world for women which was before almost the exclusive domain of men. Women can now, in the privacy of their own homes, view all the filth they can stomach. It will be their and our undoing.

[Fiannan]

The world of filth is now a level playing field. The one thing that kept women generally out of the adult video stores and book stores was the embarrassment factor. Women didn't want to be viewed publically as filthy depraved beasts. Of course those who are exposed to pornography become hardened and are then quite happy to discuss and even boast about their viewing habits. At my place of work we had a lady in her late fifties, a cleaner, who would boast about her addiction to pornography and webcams etc. Another young woman who came to us for work experience at the age of 15 boasted about her pornography addiction and how it had made her bisexual. When I was serving with the miltary in Germany in 93-96, every house on the base had hard core porn hard wired right into the home via the aerial socket. I was sleeping on the couch one Friday night and my wife decided to go through the channels to see what was on TV. She got more than she ever bargained for and still gets flashbacks to this day. That was from a few seconds viewing of filth.

The internet has now opened up a wicked world for women which was before almost the exclusive domain of men. Women can now, in the privacy of their own homes, view all the filth they can stomach. It will be their and our undoing.

Absolutely great observations -- and all true.

Indeed, prior to the VCR only really fringe women would go into a porn shop. And these women were probably with their husbands in order to reduce the embarassment they felt. Then, of course, the VCR and cable TV came out and women began to view porn, but it was not until the market diversified that women seemed to really get into it -- what I mean by diversify is that while much of the porn today is of the same gutter quality that 1950s stag films possessed, the female market began to be catered to by either what was called "yuppie porn" or "feminist porn." In a way, this is what undermined opposition to porn. I remember in the 1980s that Christian organizations and feminist organizations often worked together to oppose porn stores and cable networks offering porn. Yet as the selections became more what was called "sex positive" which I suppose means either sex but with a storyline (and not involving violence or coersion) or only featuring lesbian scenes, many feminists abandoned the anti-porn movement as they saw the best way to combat degrading porn was to support what was seen as positive portrayals. This only left those who opposed it on moral grounds to continue the fight -- but perhaps since big business makes so much money from porn, few Republican leaders cared to take on the issue and it pretty much died out even before the internet arrived on the scene.

So yes, like your 15 year old collegue,many young women are viewing what appears to be middle income, educated and attractive women having romantic scenes together -- and tell me that is not fueling the whole bi-sexual craze that is running rampent in young women today. My 9 year old knows what waxing is already -- her friends are discussing it in grade school! Tell me this is not an example of porn affecting the general culture. And at our mall, which is much less busy since the recession, one store opened that sells body jewelry and it is doing a brisk business. Care to guess where many people are getting ideas about jewelry that has noting to do with ear-rings?

I wouold even speculate that porn has done more to normalize the concept of gay marriage than Pelosi, Obama, Harry Reid and all the gay rights groups int eh USA combined.

[Squally]

I don't think men understand the pain they cause when they choose to indulge in porn. Most of the divorces I know about personally are because porn was the beginning. They then moved on to other things. An addiction to porn is quite serious and you need others help to fight it. Satan loves to send lies of how it is no big deal and you can overcome it all by yourself. As long as it stays hidden and people are not seeking help satan will win. If you have problems with porn and a wife willing to stay and help you fight, you are truly blessed. It takes an incredible amount of love to stay and help someone fight especially when what they are indulging in is so emotionally and spiritually damaging to the person staying.

"If you have problems with overeating and a husband willing to stay and help you fight your obesity, you are truly blessed. It takes an incredible amount of love to stay and help someone fight gluttony, especially when what they are indulging in is so emotionally, physically, and spiritually damaging to the person staying"

Any addiction is detrimental to both parties. Why not focus on some of weaknesses women might have such as gossiping, backbiting, anger, overeating, lacking confidence,prescription drug abuse (painkillers, depression meds etc.), sleeping more than is necessary, depression, emotional instability, self pity, selfishness, reading romance novels/watching filthy romance movies etc..... I could go on. Some problems women face are more common than among men. Some problems men face are more common than among women. Maybe this is due to our genetic and gender makeup. So we need to have some understanding of that instead of just assuming we are better than our spouse since we don't struggle as they do in a certain things. It is very difficult for men to stick with women who have weaknesses and addictions just as it for women to stick with men. I personally don't think men have claim on all sins; both husbands and wifes have plenty to deal with... And due to gentics, hormones etc. some have greater stacks against them than others. This is why in the end only God can truly judge the heart and doens't determine outwardly his judgments.

[loquaciousmomma]

I don't think men understand the pain they cause when they choose to indulge in porn. Most of the divorces I know about personally are because porn was the beginning. They then moved on to other things. An addiction to porn is quite serious and you need others help to fight it. Satan loves to send lies of how it is no big deal and you can overcome it all by yourself. As long as it stays hidden and people are not seeking help satan will win. If you have problems with porn and a wife willing to stay and help you fight, you are truly blessed. It takes an incredible amount of love to stay and help someone fight especially when what they are indulging in is so emotionally and spiritually damaging to the person staying.

"If you have problems with overeating and a husband willing to stay and help you fight your obesity, you are truly blessed. It takes an incredible amount of love to stay and help someone fight gluttony, especially when what they are indulging in is so emotionally, physically, and spiritually damaging to the person staying"

Any addiction is detrimental to both parties. Why not focus on some of weaknesses women might have such as gossiping, backbiting, anger, overeating, lacking confidence,prescription drug abuse (painkillers, depression meds etc.), sleeping more than is necessary, depression, emotional instability, self pity, selfishness, reading romance novels/watching filthy romance movies etc..... I could go on. Some problems women face are more common than among men. Some problems men face are more common than among women. Maybe this is due to our genetic and gender makeup. So we need to have some understanding of that instead of just assuming we are better than our spouse since we don't struggle as they do in a certain things. It is very difficult for men to stick with women who have weaknesses and addictions just as it for women to stick with men. I personally don't think men have claim on all sins; both husbands and wifes have plenty to deal with... And due to gentics, hormones etc. some have greater stacks against them than others. This is why in the end only God can truly judge the heart and doens't determine outwardly his judgments.

I don't understand the men on this board who are so insistent on painting women who point out the problems that pornography causes in a home as shortsighted, selfish, uncompassionate nags.

Can we at least agree that pornography is wrong, that it harms the spouse of the viewer, that a wife is at least justified in being hurt to know that her husband is fantasizing over other women when he has vowed to be true and faithful to her alone?

I just don't get the divide here.

Pornography turns a good man into a glassy eyed shell of his former self. Of course, a loving wife will work through the problem with her husband. Of course it is an addiction like other addictions. Of course, if there is any way that a woman can stay with a man who is struggling with this problem, she should. She should support him and love him , and pray for him. She should encourage him and forgive him.

I get that.

But you may not know that men who indulge in pornography often try to get their wives to act out what they are viewing. They may not come out and say that is what they are doing, but a wife knows what is happening. It turns the most beautiful act of bonding between a couple into a lewd tug of war, with the wife trying to redefine or reinforce the boundaries that the spouse is trying to cross. It changes it from a shared moment to a struggle.

Many husbands who are addicted become mean. This is because they are ashamed of what they are doing. Most of them would have never thought of behaving this way before their addiction took over. They are good men who love their families, but this habit becomes the elephant in the room that interferes with their values and beliefs.

There is more to this problem than just looking at something you shouldn't. It changes the way you see women, it changes the way you treat women, it changes the way you interact with others.

One more thing,

Can we please show the same compassion to the wives as we are demanding they show their addicted spouses?

[natasha]

You go girl!!! When we lived in Florida several years ago, my husband told me that in Priesthood our Bishop got up and told the members that someone in the Ward had found their husband looking at pornography on the internet and that she had taken a bat to the computer. He promptly said she probably should have taken the bat to him!!! I'm sure it was just his way of emphasizing the seriousness.

[Amore Vero]

You go girl!!! When we lived in Florida several years ago, my husband told me that in Priesthood our Bishop got up and told the members that someone in the Ward had found their husband looking at pornography on the internet and that she had taken a bat to the computer. He promptly said she probably should have taken the bat to him!!! I'm sure it was just his way of emphasizing the seriousness.

True, Porn is an addiction. But it is also adultery, the lusting after a woman, which Christ says will bring on excommunication if not in this life, surely the next, if not repented for. Adultery is an addiction. Abuse is an addiction. Addictions are a choice. People choose addictions because of the perks they get for doing it. To overcome the addiction, the punishment usually must be greater than the perks. But just because something is an addiction does not mean it's not also an abomination. It is possible to overcome addictions if the person truely wants to.

Though I believe in wives having unconditional Love, it must also be understood that God is all about the protection of women. And no woman is obligated to stay living with any man for 5 seconds who looks at porn & doesn't quickly repent. If a wife decides to stay & help her husband with his adulterous addiction than he is one of the most fortunate men on earth, but woman have a divine right to protect themselves & to expect respect & total faithfulness from their husband.

To say that the wife isn't perfect either is not relevant. Any sin she may have does not justify his. And it's vital to keep in mind that there are Telestial level sins, Terrestrial level sins & even Celestial level sins, that a person can commit & still earn the Celestial Kingdom. Not all sins or sinners are on the same level & thus must be judged accordingly. Not all sins justify a person leaving their spouse. If a wife is truely abusive than her husband has the same right to protect himself & hopefully he will choose to help her repent & learn to treat him with love & respect.

But there is no excuse for choosing to view porn & no man can expect his wife to 'have to' put up with it, no matter if every man in this world does it.

[paper face]

To help people understand and combat porn addiction I think it is important to assess Jesus' and Paul's claim that the body is a temple:

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

1 Cor. 3: 16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Cor. 6: 16
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If the body is a temple, then doesn't it follow that all action is temple work? Meaning that in every case we are giving time, money & energy to either God or an idol. Thus, every act has eternal consequences. Every act necessarily contributes to Zion or Babylon. If you prioritize giving the above 3 to family, relationships, or church/community service, then your priority is building Zion. If you instead prioritize giving these to movies, TV, music, the internet, video games, sports, politics, or any other activity, then you can't help but make the Lord's work & glory a subtext to the concerns of the modern day Mammon.

Because the body is a temple, it can't help but "go" to a temple and do "temple work". It can't help but pay a "tithe". The real difference is who collects those tithes. Does pornography claim it's tenth? Yes, and often more so (just like the Church). Does it have it's own "temple"? Aside from the obvious clubs & shops, porn transforms the home itself from a temple of God into a temple of Mammon which claims as a sacrifice the Light of Christ. There is always a building, be it a car, a closet, a locked room, Etc., and there is always a performance in that building. Just like in any LDS temple. Something is always sewn into the eternal destiny of the participant. Something dead is always given immortality. If you're not giving eternal life to a dead person by proxy, then you are still giving life to something that would otherwise be dead without your attention paid.

Mario & Luigi are in the world, and they are alive within our collective consciousness concerning pop culture. Why? Because they have been given time, money and energy by billions of human beings. And all that ascending from world to world? All those "tokens" and "keys"collected to unlock doors and "endow" powers? All those "dragons" defeated over the course of the performance? Video games are merely the world's electronic life wasters co-opted by the adversary as counterfeit endowments.

Drugs & pornography work the same way, only they are much more connected to the body. With pornography, the orgasm is cast as the power endowed and porn purveyors are intuitively understood as the "bearers" of this power. So people return to them compulsively for this particular endowment because they begin to believe that their satisfaction and/or intimacy requires that endowment. They begin to believe in the "authority" of porn stars. Indeed, every temple has its "priesthood", and the lie perpetuated by that priesthood is that the powers of creation are to be profaned instead of sanctified.

Because the body is a temple, people cannot help but perform temple work. Porn is just a competing, substitute religion begging for the same cycle of giving time/money/energy that participants would otherwise give to Zion if they clearly understood the promises of the Lord.

The basic function of the human being is to atone with whatever is found to be pleasing in the world. What God is essentially saying is, "Hey. Prioritize my temple, and you will receive my inheritance." Does his inheritance include sexual gratification? Of course it does, and eternal sex at that. Much more than can be gleaned by the giving of one's self to porn addiction in this brief blip of a mortal life.

Make sense?

[buffalo_girl]

There is also medical research indicating brain chemistry changes which are nearly impossible to overcome in consequence of exposure to pornography. A pre-teen or teenager is particularly vulnerable to permanent damage.

Our Ward has had a couple of Priesthood/RS combined meetings on this subject. (They are tiresome, AussieOi, but I believe this is indeed a very serious issue.) The last one was conducted by a psychiatrist in our Ward who has worked with sexual predators in the prison system and with those who are in the state mental hospital. She described the area of the brain affected by allowing oneself to become 'sexualized' by watching others have sex.

According to her, 'objectifying sex' (watching others have sex) creates increasing difficulty in one's ability to actually experience true intimacy with one's spouse.

Being unable to experience 'true intimacy' seems to indicate a less than Celestial nature. If some of you men like to fantasize about your Celestial harem, you are most likely failing to be the sexual partner your 'real, living wife' would like to enjoy. Dream on, I guess. No reason to trouble oneself with reality.

I'll ask Sister/Dr. H. for a more detailed summation of how the brain is impacted by pornography if anyone is interested.

[usaf916]

Yes, pornography is a desolating sickness and plague that probably affects millions of members of the church - both men and women. I don't think its the sickness mentioned in D&C 45:31 but it is most likely one of the catalysts that will bring on that desolating plague. Lust is the sin of this generation. It affects the High Priest down to the Deacon, it affects the Relief Society sister and mother down to the Young Women.

Its interesting that the magazine identifies the Marriott Corporation as one of the companies benefiting from the sale of pornography. I remember staying in a Marriott hotel room and making a mental note of the fact that the placard on top of the TV advertising hard core pornography for rental was right in my face...and yet the token copy of the Book of Mormon was hidden in a drawer under a pile of other tourist literature. Those who say that Bro Marriott has no control over the pornography sold in his hotels are fooling themselves. He has enough control to have a token copy of the Book of Mormon placed in every room.

'"They draw near to me with their lips."

[Amore Vero]

I do not get you Amore Vero, you contradict yourself so much on this forum....

Jules, I do support & agree with your desire for safety for yourself & children, probably more than most anyone. I do understand what you've gone through & the feelings you have. I know even Heavenly Father is filled with righteous indignation for what you have had to go through too. He want's you to be safe, happy & loved.

But, I also know he knows what unimaginable suffering & torment your husband will almost surely have to endure (for the Adversary has such a strong hold on him) in the hereafter for what he has done. And even after he is changed, repentant, cleansed & released from H... he still will have to face an eternity alone & single with the memory & regret & painful remorse of losing you & the kids & his exaltation. He will be in eternal torment at the thought of losing you forever, for he will realize how he hurt you & how he lost his chance with you & that you are the only one he ever wanted or loved.

I believe Heavenly Father is torn between seeing you suffer here temporarily & knowing your husband will suffer in the hereafter forever. While you can always protect yourself from his abuse & porn & live separate, you can also still keep your covenants of faithfulness to him if you choose, but if you move on to someone else, (date or remarry) you give up the right & sealing & power to save your husband, something I just think you may wish you had someday when you see his torment & sadness because of his eternal punishments.

I realize you probably don't believe you have any power to save him & that the last thing in the world you may want right now is to be with him ever again no matter how he's changed, but the Spirit can teach you all things you may be curious about & your feelings will likely change in the next life & so I just encourage you to think about it all, especially once you get to safety.

You do have the choice, to either faithfully wait it out & save him after he repents & changes in this life or in Spirit Prison, to the man you always wanted him to be or to move on to find someone who will hopefully stay righteous.

I sincerely wish you well, I know you did not deserve what you have been through.

[Fiannan]

There is also medical research indicating brain chemistry changes which are nearly impossible to overcome in consequence of exposure to pornography. A pre-teen or teenager is particularly vulnerable to permanent damage.

Our Ward has had a couple of Priesthood/RS combined meetings on this subject. (They are tiresome, AussieOi, but I believe this is indeed a very serious issue.) The last one was conducted by a psychiatrist in our Ward who has worked with sexual predators in the prison system and with those who are in the state mental hospital. She described the area of the brain affected by allowing oneself to become 'sexualized' by watching others have sex.

According to her, 'objectifying sex' (watching others have sex) creates increasing difficulty in one's ability to actually experience true intimacy with one's spouse.

Being unable to experience 'true intimacy' seems to indicate a less than Celestial nature. If some of you men like to fantasize about your Celestial harem, you are most likely failing to be the sexual partner your 'real, living wife' would like to enjoy. Dream on, I guess. No reason to trouble oneself with reality.

I'll ask Sister/Dr. H. for a more detailed summation of how the brain is impacted by pornography if anyone is interested.

I have read a great deal on endocrinology as well as psychology and I have yet to run across any of this. Also, I would ask myself how working with sexual predators compares to making commentary on if a guy or girl looks at pornography while staying at a Marriot Hotel. Would that not be like having someone who works with people on death row discuss kids acting up when they are asked to do their chores?

I have no doubt that a positive chemical feedback exists when one views pornography. Research has shown that both men and women have dramatic increases in their testosterone levels during and shortly after viewing porn. One's endocrine system will also see an increase in the secretion of seratonin and other endorphins -- these are "feel good" chemicals that can actually counteract depression. So if all these healthy chemicals are produced then a person will feel a greater desire to get back to those healthy feelings I suppose. Yet permanent brain alterations? I am skeptical.

The answer to the problem of porn viewing? Well, from a purely bio-chemical standpoint maybe do things that produce these chemicals naturally -- like have more sex with your wife/husband as well as have a good exercise program. Sure beats therapy.

Oh, and one thing this makes me wonder about...if we see that regions with high religiosity search for porn more than other nations -- like Pakistan and Utah -- one could ask if the taboo of porn might actually cause a person to release more of these chemicals as it adds a dimension of fear (adrenaline) that one could get caught. That would be an interesting topic for a researcher to investigate. It would mean that the more we harp on this topic with our kids the more we set them up to gain a positive experience once they do happen across these sites.

[loquaciousmomma]

I have no doubt that a positive chemical feedback exists when one views pornography. Research has shown that both men and women have dramatic increases in their testosterone levels during and shortly after viewing porn. One's endocrine system will also see an increase in the secretion of seratonin and other endorphins -- these are "feel good" chemicals that can actually counteract depression. So if all these healthy chemicals are produced then a person will feel a greater desire to get back to those healthy feelings I suppose. Yet permanent brain alterations? I am skeptical.

I have read quite a bit about this type of addiction, so I knew that Buffalo Girl's information is accurate. I did a little searching and found some experts who agree with her:

Thanks to the latest advances in neuroscience, we now know that emotionally arousing images imprint and alter the brain, triggering an instant, involuntary, but lasting, biochemical memory trail.
This applies to so-called "soft-core" and "hard-core" pornography, which may, arguably, subvert the First Amendment by overriding the cognitive speech process.
Once our neurochemical pathways are established they are difficult or impossible to delete.
Dr. Judith Reismen

Citing effects on one's body, Fagan called pornography very addictive.

"The addictive aspect of pornography has a biological substrate, with dopamine hormone release acting as one of the mechanisms for forming the transmission pathway to pleasure centers of the brain," he wrote.
Patrick F. Fagan, a Family Research Council senior fellow and director of its Center for Research on Marriage and Religion.

Dr. Donald Hilton, a practicing neurosurgeon and clinical associate professor in the neurosurgery department at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center authored Salvo's feature piece, "Slave Master: How Pornography Drugs and Changes Your Brain," the entirety of which is available for free at http://www.SalvoMag.com.

Dr. Hilton skillfully documents the biological reactions to porn usage, specifically how it affects the production and effect of dopamine in the brain. "Dopamine is essential for humans to desire and value appropriate pleasure in life," Dr. Hilton writes. Frequent use of pornography produces a steady stream of dopamine, which quickly starts to lose its effect on the pleasure center of the brain. Thus, more porn is required to achieve the same "high."

Isn't losing the ability to benefit from the rush of dopamine the result of a physical change in the brain, causing it to be less able to respond to that hormone?

I know that my son - who overdosed on ADHD meds that he got from a friend and took in such a high dosage that it landed him in the hospital with paranoia and damage similar to having taken meth - experienced actual brain damage. He was told that it would take months for his body to rebuild the dopamine that he depleted. His brain was changed, and I would argue permanently. He has gotten in so much more trouble since then, he has almost lost the ability to stop and think about his behavior, even now almost 6 months later, he is still tells me he feels his life is out of control.

And from the actual page on SalvoMag.com:

A study on cocaine addiction published in 2002 shows volume loss, or shrinkage, in several areas of the brain, particularly the frontal control areas. A study from 2004 shows very similar results for methamphetamine. But we expect drugs to damage the brain, so these studies don’t really surprise us.

Consider, though, a natural addiction, such as overeating leading to obesity. You might be surprised to learn that a study published in 2006 showed shrinkage in the frontal lobes in obesity very similar to that found in the cocaine and methamphetamine studies. And a study published in 2007 of persons exhibiting severe sexual addiction produced almost identical results to the cocaine, methamphetamine, and obesity studies. (Encouragingly, two studies, one on drug addiction [methamphetamine] and one on natural addiction [obesity] also show a return to more normal frontal lobe volumes with time in recovery.)

When you question the permanency of changes to the brain, I am not sure what you associate that word with in this context. No one is so trapped by brain changes associated with pornography that recovery is hopeless. As the last quote said, recovery can lead the brain to heal itself. But there must be some permanent change in the brain of any addict as there are triggers that can make sobriety difficult after years of abstinence. Those triggers must be the result of some permanent change in the brain that causes it to respond the same way every time a certain object is experienced.

[PatientLady]

[quote="singyourwayhome"]I'm sure a bunch of you get Meridian Magazine online...
But for those who don't, or didn't look today, this was there:

[b]"A Desolating Sickness" How to Detect, Avoid and Overcome Pornography Use[/b]
http://www.ldsmag.com/index.php?option= ... =1&id=6158

Very very good article. I hadn't thought about pornography as being a 'desolating sickness'.[/quote]

Many scriptural passages are intended by God to be understood figuratively, others are intended to be understood literally. Many saints feel they must choose one or the other as they try to understand the Lord's meaning. I feel that many of the passages are both figurative and symbolic or figurative simultaneously.

A few years back one of the General Authorities, a Seventy, spoke in my ward for a fireside. I specifically asked him if this passage referred to a biological attack in some future war. He said, no. "It refers to the AIDS epidemic." I wondered if it could refer to both a biological attack and also the AIDS epidemic. And as this article points out, pornography is clearly a desolating sickness. Of course, it could also refer to abortion, sexual child abuse, etc. Our culture is filled with "desolating sickness." So far I have been unable to learn from the Spirit which possibilities are a correct interpretation of D&C 45:31. I am inclined to believe that whatever the correct figurative interpretation is, it is also going to be fulfilled literally. Perhaps more diseases that are resistant to antibiotics? The current news certainly gives one cause to pause.

[Quiet Cricket]

A study on cocaine addiction published in 2002 shows volume loss, or shrinkage, in several areas of the brain, particularly the frontal control areas. A study from 2004 shows very similar results for methamphetamine. But we expect drugs to damage the brain, so these studies don’t really surprise us.

Consider, though, a natural addiction, such as overeating leading to obesity. You might be surprised to learn that a study published in 2006 showed shrinkage in the frontal lobes in obesity very similar to that found in the cocaine and methamphetamine studies. And a study published in 2007 of persons exhibiting severe sexual addiction produced almost identical results to the cocaine, methamphetamine, and obesity studies. (Encouragingly, two studies, one on drug addiction [methamphetamine] and one on natural addiction [obesity] also show a return to more normal frontal lobe volumes with time in recovery.)

What about people that are "addicted" to exercise, do their frontal lobes shrink? I believe exercise produces a similar "high" that drugs and pornography do, yet daily exercise is beneficial. I wonder.

[loquaciousmomma]

What about people that are "addicted" to exercise, do their frontal lobes shrink? I believe exercise produces a similar "high" that drugs and pornography do, yet daily exercise is beneficial. I wonder.

Good point. I have no idea though. Does any repetitive behavior that produces a high of sorts lead to shrinkage of the frontal lobe? We need another study!

Seriously, though, I wonder if it has to do more with the fact that we know that what we are doing is harmful to us and so we are suppressing the self control mechanisms of the frontal lobe in order to continue in the behavior. We usually have to force ourselves to exercise. Sure, there are those who become addicted to the high, but most are doing it to enjoy better health. It seems possible that if the suppression of self control impulses is the cause of the shrinkage that exercise junkies could shrink their brains as they are likely ignoring warnings that they are overdoing it.

Anyway, an interesting question!

[Amore Vero]

I honestly have never heard of these things you so vehemently discuss. I think if the Lord really wanted women to do as you are suggesting - instead of divorcing and moving on to a better life that will enable them to return to him - then we all would have heard about it before you posted it in a forum. Our church leaders would be teaching that you are to stay married no matter how evil and abusive your husbands are. Our Ensign articles would discuss the "eternal blessings" of remaining married to men who refuse to live the gospel and how sacrificing our children and lives to tag along in their cesspools of sin will be a blessing....

The Church is teaching what I believe, they just don't use such clear words anymore, for it would probably upset most everyone in the Church, because hardly no one in the Church believes in Christ's Gospel of Unconditional True Love anymore, but they do still preach that concept, they just do it quietly. (See Elder Hollands quotes & Elder Scott's for starters in my long list) But the sacredness of marriage has been entirely lost in the Church today, as Joseph Fielding Smith said even 50 years ago (the reference is also in my long list of quotes I posted).

I just assume that everyone vows to have unconditional True Love when they marry someone, no matter if it's in the temple or even some other religion, I guess I'm wrong. But I can't imagine marrying a man, nor would I, who says I will love you & stay married to you until I get tired of you or until you go off the deep end & sin big time. I want a guy who will help me if I fall or become weak. I believe in & want True Love. But to get it I know I have to expect to give it.

In most marriages in the Church there is at least one spouse breaking their covenants to the other by abuse or adultery in some form, that is normal & to be expected, should they all divorce today if staying is for nothing probably, as many here assume? I seriously ask this, do most here believe that only the 'rare righteous marriage' should stay together today & all others immediately divorce & thus have a 80-90% divorce rate in the Church?

I assumed everyone, at least in the Church, puts their spouse's eternal welfare & happiness before their own. I thought that was the marriage vow, no matter what religion. I'm wrong again.

Can I just ask you one question though, before we end this discussion?

Why, if you don't believe you can save your spouse, did you stay & suffer all those years with your husband & not leave him as soon as he began commiting such huge sins? I don't understand staying & suffering such horrible things on the 'rare chance' he might repent. For most never do repent from adultery or abuse. A woman could leave & protect herself & if he repents down the road she can take him back if she wants, but why stay & let him abuse you for years & after years of abuse & adultery finally leave? I'm sorry I just don't understand that, especially if you believe you can't save him.

I would only 'keep my covenants to have True Love' to an UNrighteous man if there was an 'absolute guarantee' from God, which I believe there is, that it would be worth it & he would for sure repent someday, in this life or the next & our marriage & family would be eternal. But stay on a 'rare maybe'? Never.

I don't believe God expects or asks any woman to have true love & help an unrighteous husband, I don't even think it's possible for it's too painful, UNLESS God can guarantee the wife that he will make sure her husband repents eventually & makes it up to her someday & the marriage will be eternal & worth suffering for. I don't believe God would ask women to stay with a wicked man for 5 seconds if you or God can't for sure save him.

Why did you stay for so long & suffer for, now, seemingly nothing, when you could have gone to find a good man, as you believe you should, alot sooner?

[Fiannan]

Thanks loquaciousmomma for the articles, I will look them up later. Interesting that obesity causes brain changes as well very similar to pornography. One wonders, are they both equally as devastating to the spirit as the WofW points out that if we maintain the health of our body we will be open to special insights and promptings of the spirit.

[Fiannan]

Quiet Cricket, just about any behavior changes our brain structures and chemistry. Learn a new language, change your lifestyle, exercise, have sex more/less often, view porn, eat too much sugar, write a book...it all causes changes. The point is, how does this effect us psychologically?

This reminds me of a British documentary I saw the other day. A heterosexual female journalist decided to do one of those "live 30 days" experiments and she emmersed herself in the lesbian lifestyle. The program follows her as she learns about the lifestyle and gets familiar with other women. Towards the end of her 30 days she wondered if it would be possible for a heterosexual woman to switch to lesbian. She consulted a psychologist who said that if she was serious then she should view lesbian porn and also think positive thoughts about women she liked. At the end she began having fantasies and sleeping dreams involving women. She did not go the final step, as the 30 days was over, but she said that if she were stranded on an island with only a female she would without a doubt be a lesbian.

I believe the danger today is that many women are doing what this lady did as a story but for their own amusement. Then they claim they "discover" who they really were (bi or lesbian) all along, when, sadly, if they had never had access to porn they would not consider it. Is some of this due to brain chemistry? Perhaps, as in time they may come to see men as less and less desirable. Again, it is a danger in my opinion that is mostly psychological, not neurological.

As for why women rarely undergo trreatment for porn/sexual addiction, be honest...how any husbands who discover their wife looks at porn are going to complain? Also, women access porn about as often as men (young women) but spend far less time on those sites. I believe the people who will suffer the most are those who surf these sites for hours every day -- it is, after all, junk food of the mind. While I am not one of those doomsayers, I have to admit that one should be concerned with the innovations in computer technology that will be available in the next 10-20 years will only make this issue intensify in its impacts on human society.

[Fiannan]

Well JulesGP, I do believe the Church leaders DO have to speak to teh masses in a way that they will not only understand, but try to follow. Look at the family limitation thing .... in days past, our leaders taught that it was evil, but that was at a time that the world's standards did not significantly disagree with that (thus, members were more likely to accept the stronger denounciations of birth control). Today many if not most LDS members are as liberal as what in the 1920s, 1950s or even maybe the 1970s members would have judged as having values akin to secular humanists. Sad to say but many members would find the words of Margaret Sanger more pleasing to their ears than the words of Ezra Taft Benson.

[Amore Vero]

I don't believe God would ask women to stay with a wicked man for 5 seconds if you or God can't for sure save him. (Now the last two paragraphs again seem to contradict your statements before about staying in a marriage no matter what, so I still don't understand your argument.)

So, it appears you believe in keeping marriage covenants to love your spouse for a little while & suffering abuse & adultery for maybe 10 years or so until the woman can't take it anymore & then divorcing. I don't understand why a woman would do that or where the Church teaches that. I don't believe God would ever ask, or have his leaders ask, a woman to suffer such things ever & especially not for nothing, for most who do these kinds of things never change in this life, they almost always just get worse & worse.

I believe God wants women to protect themselves & stand up to abuse or adultery on the very 1st offense. The Church teaches 'zero tolerance' for any form of abuse or adultery.

My belief again is that God would never ask women to stay & endure any abuse or adultery in any form or degree for even 10 minutes let alone 10 years, IF there is a way to safety, & especially IF the wife & God can't save him in the end, as you believe they can't.

And yes, I believe there is some form of abuse or adultery going on in 80+% of the marriages in the Church, but most women & men are in denial about it & ignoring it & don't seem to have the self worth & self respect to stand up to it & not tolerate it.

Can I ask why you don't believe in or want Unconditional True Love for & from a man? (And that does not mean having to endure any abuse or adultery from him.)

I don't want you to be hard on yourself for enduring abuse & adultery, the main reason you probably had to endure such was because in our world today, most leaders, civil & religious, don't understand abuse & adultery like they should & don't protect women & children from it as they should & could & is their #1 duty to do so.

[Amore Vero]

I don't believe God would ask women to stay with a wicked man for 5 seconds if you or God can't for sure save him. (Now the last two paragraphs again seem to contradict your statements before about staying in a marriage no matter what, so I still don't understand your argument.)

So, it appears you believe in keeping marriage covenants to love your spouse for a little while & suffering abuse & adultery for maybe 10 years or so until the woman can't take it anymore & then divorcing. I don't understand why a woman would do that or where the Church teaches that. I don't believe God would ever ask, or have his leaders ask, a woman to suffer such things ever & especially not for nothing, for most who do these kinds of things never change in this life, they almost always just get worse & worse.

I believe God wants women to protect themselves & stand up to abuse or adultery on the very 1st offense. The Church teaches 'zero tolerance' for any form of abuse or adultery.

My belief again is that God would never ask women to stay & endure any abuse or adultery in any form or degree for even 10 minutes let alone 10 years, IF there is a way to safety, & especially IF the wife & God can't save him in the end, as you believe they can't.

And yes, I believe there is some form of abuse or adultery going on in 80+% of the marriages in the Church, but most women & men are in denial about it & ignoring it & don't seem to have the self worth & self respect to stand up to it & not tolerate it.

Can I ask why you don't believe in or want Unconditional True Love for & from a man? (And that does not mean having to endure any abuse or adultery from him.)

I believe in doing all I can to work out my marriage and that's what I did.

I DO believe in and want unconditional true love for & from a man, (I don't know what gave you the idea that I don't) but not one who is abusive like my husband. If I had taken the time to get to know him better and had married him the way the Lord tells us to in the first place, I would have known of these issues and would not have married him in the first place. But since I made the mistake of getting into this marriage, I believe I had a responsibility to do everything I could to overcome those issues and save the marriage.

I still don't understand why it sounds like you are now advocating leaving marriages that are abusive, but in so many of your other posts, you claim we are supposed to stay married and wait into the eternities if necessary for them to repent and change. Your posts are contradictory.

I believe in True Love, without any conditions, meaning to never give up & never stop loving them & never breaking your covenants of faithfulnes to them by leaving the marriage & seeking another. But all that can be done from a safe distance if the spouse is abusive or adulterous, you don't have to stay living with them & endure abuse, to love them & stay faithful to them.

You say you believe in unconditional love, but you have limits, you want to find someone new. Unconditional means forever, no matter what they do. And even though you didn't marry your husband yet in the temple, there is still a way you can be married forever to him IF you really love him, unconditionally. There is a way, after he repents & he will some day. Eternal marriage is Unconditional marriage.

[buffalo_girl]

You say you believe in unconditional love, but you have limits, you want to find someone new. Unconditional means forever, no matter what they do. And even though you didn't marry your husband yet in the temple, there is still a way you can be married forever to him IF you really love him, unconditionally. There is a way, after he repents & he will some day. Eternal marriage is Unconditional marriage.

I'm sorry, HOW old are you? This sounds like the blissful imaginings of a 17 year-old who reads tons of slightly naughty romance novels.

Heavens! a girl could just run out and marry some bi-sexual rock star and spend eternity hoping for his reformation. No doubt love will endure even when his tattoos surrender to gravity, is suffering dementia from advanced AIDS which he passed on to you, looks like an animated cadaver, had sex with both your son and your daughter, and still loves Satan more than God.

There is Eternity to consider after all.

[Amore Vero]

You say you believe in unconditional love, but you have limits, you want to find someone new. Unconditional means forever, no matter what they do. And even though you didn't marry your husband yet in the temple, there is still a way you can be married forever to him IF you really love him, unconditionally. There is a way, after he repents & he will some day. Eternal marriage is Unconditional marriage.

I'm sorry, HOW old are you? This sounds like the blissful imaginings of a 17 year-old who reads tons of slightly naughty romance novels.

Heavens! a girl could just run out and marry some bi-sexual rock star and spend eternity hoping for his reformation. No doubt love will endure even when his tattoos surrender to gravity, is suffering dementia from advanced AIDS which he passed on to you, looks like an animated cadaver, had sex with both your son and your daughter, and still loves Satan more than God.

There is Eternity to consider after all.

Exactly, Eternity is what we need to consider. But as I said before, hardly no one believes in Unconditional True Love anymore, it's all foolishness & folly to them. And how sad, for they miss out on the most wonderful thing in life & all eternity.

[buffalo_girl]

Exactly, Eternity is what we need to consider. But as I said before, hardly no one believes in Unconditional True Love anymore, it's all foolishness & folly to them. And how sad, for they miss out on the most wonderful thing in life & all eternity.

If you are female, then you must be absolutely the most perfect person to practice polyandry.

Wishing you every success with your eternal project!