Role of Government in the family

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WYp8riot
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Role of Government in the family

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Does government have any legitimate role to interfere in family matters, marriage licencing, child custody and divorce? What are those roles and where did the authority originate?

fps.sledge
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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I don't know where they originated, someone more educated than myself can discuss those things. Also regarding child custody and divorce, I think it's a nasty thing. I think that the gov't should have no involve in it. At the same time, what are the alternatives? I just don't know.

There should never be anything such as marriage licensing. I don't know why the govt should be making any money on people getting married. I don't know why there are marriage certificates. If I were not a member of the church, I would see no purpose in getting married. If I wanted to commit to be with my significant other for the remainder of our days, I would need neither church nor govt to help me in that endeavor. Being a member of the church, I understand marriage to be a commitment between a man, woman, and God. Govt should NOT be included in that commitment.

Divorce is so very nasty. The relationship of a couple can be determined upon the merits of one judge. And that one judge typically determines the relationships of hundreds, perhaps even thousands. Who qualifies that person to make those decision? Being a child of two parents who went through a lengthy court divorce, I can say that it is disheartening to see a judge making laws (in a certain way) that each spouse has to follow. Laws being: Custody, financial issues, child support, etc. It's despicable. That being said, I don't know what the alternative is. I'm open to some ideas.

Amore Vero
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by Amore Vero »

WYp8riot wrote:Does government have any legitimate role to interfere in family matters, marriage licencing, child custody and divorce? What are those roles and where did the authority originate?

No of course not. Only God can say if a couple is worthy of marriage or remarriage or justified in a divorce. Just because a couple may be divorced or remarried by civil laws does not mean it's valid with God & there won't be dire & painful eternal consequences. Waving a 'civil decree' around as justification on the day of judgement will make no difference to God. These are spiritual matters.

"We should not believe the philosophy that what is legal is what is right."
Elder Faust, BYU Law School Address.

If you read the Proclamation carefully you will read that it says only men & women who are 'lawfully' wedded, meaning by the 'laws of God', are justified to have intimate relations. They totally leave out the word 'legally'.

And many, if not most, divorces are not really valid with God, the couple is still completely married in his eyes.

"No judge in this world in any court of the land can annul a marriage for time & all eternity. He may separate the husband & wife by legal enactments so far as this world is concerned, but he cannot separate that husband & wife so far as the next world is concerned."
Joseph Fielding Smith, CR Apr. 1961, 49-50.

natasha
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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I'm sure this is a topic that could really be discussed in length...and I have enjoyed the few comments that have been made. Interestingly, though, the first thing I thought of is what would I have done without all the marriage records available to me for genealogy. Many of these records gave me not only names and dates of marriage, but dates of birth, places of birth, parents names, occupations, etc. Forgive my obsession with available records for family history!

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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I think the government has a reasonable albeit very small role in a few of these areas. For example, I think the government has a reasonable role in recording and adjudicating any real property disputes in divorce cases. They are probably also in the best place to settle child custody disputes after good faith efforts are made privately. Marriages and births could be recorded, though not approved.

I think the court system has a valid place as an area to settle legal disputes between citizens. I think the costs should be wholly borne by participants though and abusers of the system quickly dealt with. We've got a crazy and overly complicated system as it stands. We can whittle it back down to where it should be without throwing it out altogether.

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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natasha wrote:I'm sure this is a topic that could really be discussed in length...and I have enjoyed the few comments that have been made. Interestingly, though, the first thing I thought of is what would I have done without all the marriage records available to me for genealogy. Many of these records gave me not only names and dates of marriage, but dates of birth, places of birth, parents names, occupations, etc. Forgive my obsession with available records for family history!

Good point about records. You are not saying the state is the original source of marriage records being kept are you?

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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fps.sledge wrote:I don't know where they originated, someone more educated than myself can discuss those things. Also regarding child custody and divorce, I think it's a nasty thing. I think that the gov't should have no involve in it. At the same time, what are the alternatives? I just don't know.

There should never be anything such as marriage licensing. I don't know why the govt should be making any money on people getting married. I don't know why there are marriage certificates. If I were not a member of the church, I would see no purpose in getting married. If I wanted to commit to be with my significant other for the remainder of our days, I would need neither church nor govt to help me in that endeavor. Being a member of the church, I understand marriage to be a commitment between a man, woman, and God. Govt should NOT be included in that commitment.

Divorce is so very nasty. The relationship of a couple can be determined upon the merits of one judge. And that one judge typically determines the relationships of hundreds, perhaps even thousands. Who qualifies that person to make those decision? Being a child of two parents who went through a lengthy court divorce, I can say that it is disheartening to see a judge making laws (in a certain way) that each spouse has to follow. Laws being: Custody, financial issues, child support, etc. It's despicable. That being said, I don't know what the alternative is. I'm open to some ideas.
I believe you are correct. Consider the family is the foundational unit of society. Who thinks that satan or anti family organizations would not have goals to subvert the courts and use it as an institution that attacks the family? If these are true statements then I would suggest that one of the most overlooked issues in the freedom movement is the corruption of the "family" courts, which in reality should be called anti-family courts. They are the most tyrannical courts we have and from my perspective and reasoning, they are the most dangerous to our liberties. As far as I have discovered, On a daily basis they destroy and operate outside of constitutional or legitimate authority!

Since marriage is a contract, should not any court issues be resolved under contract laws?

Amore Vero
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by Amore Vero »

WYp8riot wrote: I would suggest that one of the most overlooked issues in the freedom movement is the corruption of the "family" courts, which in reality should be called anti-family courts. They are the most tyrannical courts we have and from my perspective and reasoning, they are the most dangerous to our liberties. As far as I have discovered, On a daily basis they destroy and operate outside of constitutional or legitimate authority!

Since marriage is a contract, should not any court issues be resolved under contract laws?

I agree. There is little protection for women & children today in the courts. And a society, religion, church, leader, or man is only as good as it protects the rights of women & children.

But marriage is not & never was a Contract, but a life-long & hopefully eternal Covenant. That's where we got off, we have allowed people who vowed to give their life to their spouse forever, get out of their promise when the going gets rough & thus the children are the ones who suffer for it.

If protection is needed at times for one spouse or the other, that can be had without divorce. For the main reason for marriage is for spouses to help an errant spouse repent if they become unrighteous in any way, not leave them in their mire & be lost forever.

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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Amore Vero wrote:
WYp8riot wrote: I would suggest that one of the most overlooked issues in the freedom movement is the corruption of the "family" courts, which in reality should be called anti-family courts. They are the most tyrannical courts we have and from my perspective and reasoning, they are the most dangerous to our liberties. As far as I have discovered, On a daily basis they destroy and operate outside of constitutional or legitimate authority!

Since marriage is a contract, should not any court issues be resolved under contract laws?

I agree. There is little protection for women & children today in the courts. And a society, religion, church, leader, or man is only as good as it protects the rights of women & children.

But marriage is not & never was a Contract, but a life-long & hopefully eternal Covenant. That's where we got off, we have allowed people who vowed to give their life to their spouse forever, get out of their promise when the going gets rough & thus the children are the ones who suffer for it.

If protection is needed at times for one spouse or the other, that can be had without divorce. For the main reason for marriage is for spouses to help an errant spouse repent if they become unrighteous in any way, not leave them in their mire & be lost forever.
In our religion we accept it as a such but our religion doesn't impose on the state and members of other faiths. I don't see Wow
men and Children as being the only victims. It's families including fathers.

" give their life to their spouse forever, get out of their promise when the going gets rough " And this is where the government meddles and creates incentive for poeple and rewards the parent who gives up, often when no crime was committed.

Amore Vero
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by Amore Vero »

WYp8riot wrote: In our religion we accept it as a such but our religion doesn't impose on the state and members of other faiths. I don't see Women and Children as being the only victims. It's families including fathers.

" give their life to their spouse forever, get out of their promise when the going gets rough " And this is where the government meddles and creates incentive for poeple and rewards the parent who gives up, often when no crime was committed.

Yes, I agree, fathers are sometimes victims too, more & more unfortunately. And I agree that the government creates incentives & rewards that entice spouses to give up when the marriage could have been saved. As Elder Oaks said a few year back in Gen. Conf., 100% of marriages could be saved if both were willing to try.

But it has been & still is typically women & children who are the victims & the most vulnerable in this world.

Thus men's greatest duty in life, as Moroni taught & enforced, is to protect women & children. 1st those of his own family & then others. And of course men should be protected too but usually men can protect themselves. Women usually need male protection from abusive males. Too many men stand by while women among their family, friends & wards are abused in any form or abandoned & divorced by men.

"The world is a dangerous place, not because there is evil, but because of those who do nothing about it."

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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Amore Vero wrote:
WYp8riot wrote: In our religion we accept it as a such but our religion doesn't impose on the state and members of other faiths. I don't see Women and Children as being the only victims. It's families including fathers.

" give their life to their spouse forever, get out of their promise when the going gets rough " And this is where the government meddles and creates incentive for poeple and rewards the parent who gives up, often when no crime was committed.

Yes, I agree, fathers are sometimes victims too, more & more unfortunately. And I agree that the government creates incentives & rewards that entice spouses to give up when the marriage could have been saved. As Elder Oaks said a few year back in Gen. Conf., 100% of marriages could be saved if both were willing to try.

But it has been & still is typically women & children who are the victims & the most vulnerable in this world.

Thus men's greatest duty in life, as Moroni taught & enforced, is to protect women & children. 1st those of his own family & then others. And of course men should be protected too but usually men can protect themselves. Women usually need male protection from abusive males. Too many men stand by while women among their family, friends & wards are abused in any form or abandoned & divorced by men.

"The world is a dangerous place, not because there is evil, but because of those who do nothing about it."
Statistics have shown the safest place for women is in the constructs of an intact family. Unfortunately it was women in conjunction with communists that stated families were prisons for women and these extreme feminists were the ones that pushed for our current communist "family" laws. Women have as much ability to harm a man when they use the communist power of a police state. However when there is physical violence instigated by the man I agree the woman can be more vulnerable. However I think such cases are over reported from reality as it is natural for man to want to be a protector, its as much of our nature as men as it is for women to be nurturers.

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Darren
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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WYp8riot wrote:Does government have any legitimate role to interfere in family matters, marriage licencing, child custody and divorce? What are those roles and where did the authority originate?
Two systems only. One legitimate the other illegitimate.

Both of these systems are based on force.

The true system is based on the force that a person does to himself to live a virtuous life.

The false system is based on the force that comes from some people who promote that they and their kind are better than most of the other people, the wise get to boss around the less wise.

In the true system, a jury of your peers decides if you are living a virtuous life, and if you are not being virtuous you are guilty, which usually means excommunication or disfellowship.

In the false system, a man dressed as a catholic monk gets to tell you the logical/illogical nature of your actions, and how much of a fine you must be penalized with.

The true system you abide by the gospel principle of "free."

The role of leaders in the free system is to show you the way, and to help you if possible.

The role of managers in the false system is to whip you into submission.

In the false system you are a slave. Guess which system you are under when they come with their logic, and just start taking things?

Authority for the true system is from Jesus Christ, as he asked the Church to choose among themselves in their local areas judicial, executive, and representative leaders.

The illegitimate authority of the false system comes from the manical coercion of managers and the ignorance of the peons.

Government has no legitimate authority in the family. But when good leaders are not to be found Satan's minions come to fill the void.

God Bless,
Darren

Amore Vero
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by Amore Vero »

Darren wrote:[In the true system, a jury of your peers decides if you are living a virtuous life, and if you are not being virtuous you are guilty, which usually means excommunication or disfellowship.
A jury of your peers is even a flawed system & can easily result in wrong judgments, since it is rare that the majority of people in a society are righteous. Most people in most all societies can easily be decieved to believe lies about righteous people & thus hand down incorrect judgments.

'Rare righteous people' often look like they are in the 'wrong' or 'alittle off' to most people, even to good people but who don't have the Spirit, who can think right is wrong & wrong is right.

It's not the wicked that continually amaze me at what they do, but it's how seemingly good people who are active LDS can so easily be deceived to support evil & make incorrect judgments about people & situations.

The only sure way for Justice is to have leaders who are truely righteous, who have the Spirit of Discernment. But even that is very rare too. Today almost everyone is so easily decieved when listening to 2 sides of a story. So we will just have to wait until Zion for perfect justice.

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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Amore Vero
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by Amore Vero »

WYp8riot wrote:Attack on the family is not gender biased.


Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-E7bbx ... r_embedded

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiSQAdz ... re=related

A sticky mess indeed. But as God teaches & enforces, when he has righteous leaders who will - Only spouses who have 'True Love & faithfulness' for the other spouse can truely deserve & retain rights to their children, in this life or the next.

For, not loving & being faithful to your spouse is abusive to your children & thus merits a parent unworthy of their children.

In every divorce at least one spouse is abusive & has broken their marriage covenants, which God says causes that spouse to lose all rights to the children, if not in this life, for sure the next. Being willing & able to 'identify' the abusive spouse & apply needed consequences to protect the innocent spouse & children, seems to be the major problem courts have.

Courts don't usually go by God's supreme laws, thus we have these huge messes & custody battles where children are hurt even worse, by the very people who are obligated to protect them.

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by WYp8riot »

Amore Vero wrote:
WYp8riot wrote:Attack on the family is not gender biased.


Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-E7bbx ... r_embedded

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiSQAdz ... re=related

A sticky mess indeed. But as God teaches & enforces, when he has righteous leaders who will - Only spouses who have 'True Love & faithfulness' for the other spouse can truely deserve & retain rights to their children, in this life or the next.

For, not loving & being faithful to your spouse is abusive to your children & thus merits a parent unworthy of their children.



In every divorce at least one spouse is abusive & has broken their marriage covenants, which God says causes that spouse to lose all rights to the children, if not in this life, for sure the next. Being willing & able to 'identify' the abusive spouse & apply needed consequences to protect the innocent spouse & children, seems to be the major problem courts have.

Courts don't usually go by God's supreme laws, thus we have these huge messes & custody battles where children are hurt even worse, by the very people who are obligated to protect them.
So what do you see as a solution? My point is the government has no role in the family unless there is evidence of a crime.

fps.sledge
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Re: Role of Government in the family

Post by fps.sledge »

I don't know what the perfect solution is. I do know that a solution to mistakes made by govt is to never get involved. Allow people to make mistakes in their personal lives. Life isn't perfect. There isn't much the govt can do about it. I'm convined we will ALL experience some sort of tragedy or mishap in our lives or someones lives close by.

I don't believe govt intervention is the solution, however appealing the pro's might be. The reality is that all of us citizens need to be tolerant of others mistakes. This is the only way freedom can prosper.

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WYp8riot
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Re: Role of Government in the family

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fps.sledge wrote:I don't know what the perfect solution is. I do know that a solution to mistakes made by govt is to never get involved. Allow people to make mistakes in their personal lives. Life isn't perfect. There isn't much the govt can do about it. I'm convined we will ALL experience some sort of tragedy or mishap in our lives or someones lives close by.

I don't believe govt intervention is the solution, however appealing the pro's might be. The reality is that all of us citizens need to be tolerant of others mistakes. This is the only way freedom can prosper.

I think the evidence supports this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBcvQG_X ... re=related

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