Women's Right to Vote

[wolfman]

I thought this was inspiring

http://www.womengotv.com/History_-_Women_Vote_.html

[Rensai]

In some ways its inspiring, but in other ways its depressing. Giving the right to vote to the unlanded masses (those who didn't own land) is a huge part of the reason we find ourselves in the socialist mess we're in now. I don't pretend to know whether the original system of only allowing land owners to vote (mostly men), or what we have now, would have been worse in the long run. Just saying that universal voting rights has some big down sides to it.

[Original_Intent]

I read an interesting article that proposed that the real solution is true universal suffrage (even children can vote) but elected officials need to be so tied down by the chains of the Constitution that they can do no harm no matter who gets elected.

Elected office should be service, not power. If there is no real power, then the corrupt will quit being attracted. But sadly it is not how the world works.

[Amore Vero]

Amazing what those courageous women went through for their God-given right to equal voice. The way they were treated is a good representation the 6000 years of oppression women have endured by men who were afraid of their strength & equal say. Even today many men still have a hard time sharing authority & equal voice with women.

God can only establish Zion when men can honor & respect women's equal voice & right to govern & preside along with them in the home & society as co-presidents, co-presiders & co-heads.

[ChelC]

God can only establish Zion when men can honor & respect women's equal voice & right to govern & preside along with them in the home & society as co-presidents, co-presiders & co-heads.

That's definitely part of the equation... but around me I see just as many women who are disrespectful to their men.

Today a woman is NOT completely dependent upon a man for a living as she once was. If she isn't a good woman, she holds some very powerful cards. She can marry a man, treat him poorly, take the house, take the kids, and get a fair amount of alimony if she's smart about her deception.

There will always be men who abuse their strength and overpower and manipulate women. Now that we have our rights, there are just as many women who abuse their strength to manipulate and mistreat men.

[shadow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMoLYwFW8sI

[Wiikwajio]

Just as a question. How has America become more free and less socialist since women got the right to vote?

Have we been in less or more wars since women got the right to vote?

Do we live closer to Constitutional principles since women got the right to vote?

Do we have better families since women got the right to vote?

Do families pay lower taxes? Do families home school more? Do families have more or less children? Are families more or less like the standards and principles set by the church since women got the right to vote?

If we are to know them by their fruits can anyone give me any proof of GOOD FRUIT from giving women the right to vote?

[Amore Vero]

Just as a question. How has America become more free and less socialist since women got the right to vote?

Have we been in less or more wars since women got the right to vote?

Do we live closer to Constitutional principles since women got the right to vote?

Do we have better families since women got the right to vote?

Do families pay lower taxes? Do families home school more? Do families have more or less children? Are families more or less like the standards and principles set by the church since women got the right to vote?

If we are to know them by their fruits can anyone give me any proof of GOOD FRUIT from giving women the right to vote?

I guess you would have to be a woman to understand how 'good' the fruits are. Unfortunately still today most men would still like to enslave women if they could. For it is still the disposition of nearly all men to immediately exercise unrighteous dominion in the home, church or society.

[shadow]

For it is still the disposition of nearly all men to immediately exercise unrighteous dominion in the home, church or society.

Women are on "equal" standing with the above quoted scripture too Amore.

[Amore Vero]

For it is still the disposition of nearly all men to immediately exercise unrighteous dominion in the home, church or society.

Women are on "equal" standing with the above quoted scripture too Amore.

I do not believe that is true. History does not show that. History shows extreme abuse & control by men over women in most all societies for 6000 years, not the other way around.

We must also go by what the Prophets say. The Prophets have said over & over how women have a superior love, spirituality, faith & willingness to sacrifice in marriage, then men. Pres. Hinckley said that men are usually the cause that brings about divorce. And since divorce is always caused by 'some form of abuse' by one or the other or both, what he is saying is that men are more abusive than women.

Brigham Young said that not one woman in 1000 will not be righteous if her husband is truely righteous & loves her, but he said it is not so with men. He said many men will still not be righteous even with the influence of a good woman.

'Unrighteous dominion' is abuse & control. Statistics are that in 90% of domestic abuse cases, the man is the abuser. While it is true that more & more women are becoming abusive these days, sometimes it is really self-defense that appears like abuse, because they are reacting to their husband's emotional, verbal, financial, sexual or physical abuse.

It is rare to find a man who does not abuse his wife or others in some form. That is not so with women. There are many women who are righteous & who love even unrighteous husbands. One church leader said that a righteous man is a miracle today.

[shadow]

All I'm suggesting is that as women become more "equal" in society they also become more and more like men in their unrighteous dominion. As the opportunities arise women have obliged just like men have. The difference is historically women haven't been in such positions as they now are. Of course, I agree that generally speaking women are more righteous than men but that certainly isn't a blanket statement. This world has no shortage of "Delilah's" that manipulate men causing them to lose their strength and sight (metaphorically!).

[Wiikwajio]

Just as a question. How has America become more free and less socialist since women got the right to vote?

Have we been in less or more wars since women got the right to vote?

Do we live closer to Constitutional principles since women got the right to vote?

Do we have better families since women got the right to vote?

Do families pay lower taxes? Do families home school more? Do families have more or less children? Are families more or less like the standards and principles set by the church since women got the right to vote?

If we are to know them by their fruits can anyone give me any proof of GOOD FRUIT from giving women the right to vote?

I guess you would have to be a woman to understand how 'good' the fruits are. Unfortunately still today most men would still like to enslave women if they could. For it is still the disposition of nearly all men to immediately exercise unrighteous dominion in the home, church or society.

Most men want to enslave other men too. So?

I guess I would need to be a woman to fail to have the ability to logically explain the fruits achieved toward liberty since they were given the vote.

[ChelC]

Just as a question. How has America become more free and less socialist since women got the right to vote?

Have we been in less or more wars since women got the right to vote?

Do we live closer to Constitutional principles since women got the right to vote?

Do we have better families since women got the right to vote?

Do families pay lower taxes? Do families home school more? Do families have more or less children? Are families more or less like the standards and principles set by the church since women got the right to vote?

If we are to know them by their fruits can anyone give me any proof of GOOD FRUIT from giving women the right to vote?

Well, Wiik. I agree that female voters haven't given us much of anything great to revel in, but I don't think that has a thing to do with the fact that they are able to vote... I think it has more to do with the lack of education and the degradation of society as a whole.

Take the good and leave the bad. Women have always had a vote in the congregations of our church. With responsibility comes power and liability. The more wicked we become, the more women we'll see abusing their rights.

[John Adams]

I pray that my comments will come across correctly.

Yes, men have done some awful things throughout the ages, but what if we turned to God for some answers instead of to just some more supposedly "good stories?"

Abigail Adams is one of my favorite people and from what I understand she wasn't that concerned about women's right to vote, more just that women have a voice.

What if we voted as a "family" where the husband and wife would consult together and then the patriarch of the family would vote as the "voice" for the whole family? If a woman wasn't married then she would still be part of her father's family and could consult with her father in making sure she had a voice. Also in order to have a right to vote this same patriarch would have to live to certain standards to be considered a "free man" and only then would he even be able to vote (vs. the current world where people get to vote their share from the public "coffers" just by turning 18 whether they are responsible individuals or not).

Most people hear this and say it would never work and maybe a part of the reason is that we (as families) have never taken the responsibility to make it work and in the name of "fairness" have allowed the current "chaos" to come into existence. My other response would also be to echo "Wiki's" in that with women's right to vote I haven't seen anything get better as far as protecting our inalieable rights.

I guess I'm mainly saying is that our current system is nothing to brag about and that I think Satan is excellent at dividing (saying women are better then men and vice versa), when I would hope if we all (both men and women) looked a little more to God that he may actually be able to teach us a better system altogether.

[Amore Vero]

I guess I'm mainly saying is that our current system is nothing to brag about and that I think Satan is excellent at dividing (saying women are better then men and vice versa), when I would hope if we all (both men and women) looked a little more to God that he may actually be able to teach us a better system altogether.

His better system is Zion. But he cannot bring it about until men & women can learn to share equal position & power in all things. Only when both are completely equal in the home, church & society will God be able to establish Zion. It took 6000 years for Heavenly Father to awaken women this far, we still have a ways to go, for many women still do not want to take on or realize their divine responsibility of equality in leadership with men. Husbands & wives are to be Co-Presidents, Co-Presiders & Co-Heads in a marriage & family, both with equal say & veto power in any & all decisions.

Zion will be a Terrestrial State, with Terrestrial level laws. And Pres. Kimball gave us a glimpse into how things are done in such a state when he said,

"There is no Patriarchy or Matriarchy in the Garden, the two supervised each other & are just as dependent on each other."
Pres. Kimball, forward to "Patriarchy & Matriarchy", Hugh W. Nibley.

[Rose Garden]

Husbands and wives are equal, but there is only one leader. Isaiah calls the leadership of a woman a curse. Having grown up in a society where most of the women ruled over their husbands, I can understand this. Having tried unsuccessfully to rule over my husband and having given it up in a spirit of love, I have even more understanding of this concept. Men were created to lead and women to follow their husbands and lead in their own sphere. We are each given attributes that will make us excellent in our positions if we learn to bridle our passions and become like Christ. A woman cannot rule in righteousness and society and the home suffers when they try.

I believe that women's suffrage came about because of the wickedness of both women and men in our society. This does not diminish the sacrifice these women made. They were doing what they felt was right, and since many women were being ruled by unrighteous men, it might truly have been the better way. However, I believe that a world where women wouldn't need to worry about suffrage, because they could trust their husbands to vote in a manner that would benefit the whole family, would be much better than what we have now.

I would challenge any woman who wants to understand gender roles and the gospel of Jesus Christ better to try doing what their husbands say, without arguing or complaining, in all things that are not of eternal consequence, righteously judge whether to follow their husbands in everything that is of eternal consequence, and seek to provide for their husband's every comfort without expecting even so much as a "thank you" in return. Moreover, to realize the true power of these actions, seek a testimony of your husband's divine destiny as king and priest and bear that testimony to him often when he is in need of help in making a decision or struggling with a problem. Many of the problems that plague marriage will disappear from yours if you do these things and you will discover greater happiness for your whole family.

[Amore Vero]

Husbands and wives are equal, but there is only one leader. Isaiah calls the leadership of a woman a curse. Having grown up in a society where most of the women ruled over their husbands, I can understand this.

There is no such thing as equal yet only one is the leader. They are either both completely equal leaders or they are not equal.

It is actually a sin for a woman to allow a man to abuse her by ruling over her or even letting him 'think' he is the sole leader & over her in any way. A woman is commanded to protect herself & her children from such a man or anyone who believes such falsehoods.

Men never have had nor ever will have the right to rule over women. Pres. Hinckley said the scripture about 'men ruling over women' has been so twisted & misunderstood & has lead to so much abuse of women & men have used it to put them in a secondary position through the ages of time.

Husbands & wives are both complete & equal leaders in the home, society & Church.

The Prophets speak of the leadership of women as a curse only when she tries to rule over the man in unrighteousness & abusiveness & when she doesn't honor his equal say in decisions & tries to lead the family by herself. Only if the man is unrighteous is a woman told to lead the family by herself & sometimes get herself & the children away from him & to safety if she can.

It is the same for men, a man's leadership is also a curse & unrighteous if he tries to rule over his wife in any way & does not honor her equal say & veto power in all things. As long as both are righteous, both must honor each other's equal authority & power to preside over each other & the family. They must make decisions together, neither moving ahead in a decision until the other completely agrees & feels it is right.

It is a sin for a woman to rule over a man IF he is righteous, as much as it is a sin for a man to rule over a woman. The problem today is, many men are not righteous, most use unrighteous dominion. So it often does fall to the woman to lead the family by herself with Heavenly Father's help.

Heavenly Father gives the children 1st to the woman to have her take care of & preside over the child alone, for 9 months. If the woman believes the husband to be righteous & safe & respectful of her wishes & rights then she is to allow him to preside with her over that child when it is born. The wife never becomes less of a leader than her husband, in fact the husband must prove he is worthy of presiding & leading with the mother. If the husband is not righteous then she is to be the sole presider over her children, receiving revelation alone as to what to do for them & their safety.

Prophets have taught that they are Co-presidents & Co-presiders. They rule together. Neither one is over the other in any way. The wife leads the husband & the husband leads the wife. They protect & preside over each other equally. Assuming they are both righteous.

The Prophets have been very specific how marriage is not like any other leadership model in the Church, that it is not like a Bishop & his counselor. Marriage they say, is different, both are like the Bishop, both have complete say in all matters & both must respect & be submissive to the other & their wishes & revelations. Thus they must learn to share power & position & both receive revelation & listen to each other's counsel.

The man is actually commanded to submit & listen to & follow the wife 1st & love & serve her every wish, before the wife is ever asked to do the same for her husband. He is required to give his life to her 1st & then she will feel it is safe to do the same & give herself & life to him. For the risk in marriage is far greater for women than it is for men. Thus God requires the man to submit 1st. But if he does do this, then she is also asked to submit & listen to & follow him as he does her.

I understand what you are saying about totally submitting to a husband, even if he doesn't deserve it nor is worthy & righteous. For that is the only way to get along with an unrighteous man & keep a family together until he repents & submits to her too. Women have done that for 6000 years. Often because they had no choice to get them & their children away from an unrighteous man. But the wife should always be trying to teach an unrighteous husband to respect her & her equal position & power & voice in all decisions, & ask him little by little to listen to & love & serve her until he can do so completely.

Unconditional Love is always the answer, even if the other doesn't give it to you yet.

But the ideal is & always has been, for both to submit to each other & fulfill each other's every wish & desires in every decision, before their own. If both are righteous they will want the same thing & get the same revelations & agree on most everything. Anything they don't agree on, they will do what the other wants, rather than what they want. This is true righteousness in marriage.

[wyltk75]

Husbands and wives are equal, but there is only one leader. Isaiah calls the leadership of a woman a curse. Having grown up in a society where most of the women ruled over their husbands, I can understand this.

There is no such thing as equal yet only one is the leader. They are either both completely equal leaders or they are not equal.

That's exactly what I was going to say Amore. One thing that I noticed at the temple is that all people make it to the CK on their own. Men and Women are separate in the path. Only once they reach the CK are man and wife united. You can't make it to God on someone else's coattails, including your spouse.

[Rose Garden]

Husbands and wives are equal, but there is only one leader. Isaiah calls the leadership of a woman a curse. Having grown up in a society where most of the women ruled over their husbands, I can understand this.

There is no such thing as equal yet only one is the leader. They are either both completely equal leaders or they are not equal.

This is a lie perpetuated by the society we live in and by human nature. If what you say is true, wouldn't it mean that President Monson is not our equal, but a greater human being than us? He is our leader but we are not his. A leader is not of more worth than any other person, but is simply the person designated to preside over others. This creates order and union in an organization, including the family.

That a woman's husband would rule over her is a curse placed upon Eve because she partook of the fruit first. Men have the natural right to lead and are given characteristics which allow them to do so. If left unbridled by righteousness, those characteristics result in tyranny, but if used within the bounds of righteousness, it results in peace for all involved. As you say, the ideal would be oneness, both husband and wife receiving direction from the Lord so that the line of leadership is blurred. But the truth is, all of us sin and we are here to learn to be righteous, so there must be a leader so we can have order in our lives as we seek oneness and perfection.

The problem of dual leadership is that the more unrighteous of two people is the one more likely to insist that the other do what they want. The one willing to compromise to bring peace will generally be the one who is more righteous. So without clear leadership, a family is prone to spiral downward into unrighteousness.

Having one person as the designated leader avoids this problem if either one of the two are trying to be righteous. If the person who is following the leader does what the leader asks, except in cases where they are being asked to do something unrighteous, then the family can enjoy the order necessary to foster the spiritual development of all members and the follower is in no danger of condemnation because they only follow in righteousness. But constantly trying to determine who will give in to who just fosters chaos.

Suppose, however, that husband wife are supposed to lead with equal authority, would it be wrong for a wife to submit to her husband in the way I described? According to you, both should submit to each other, but it is up to the individual to choose for themselves to do what's right. If both parties in the marriage are supposed to submit to the other, than why shouldn't the woman submit to the man in anything that is not pertinent to eternal salvation? She can only do her own part. She would not be submitting to any ill treatment, such as abuse, since she would not be submitting to unrighteousness. In reality, if women had conducted themselves this way through the ages, men would not have been able to rule over them in unrighteousness. The fact that they have indicates that both men and women have been unrighteous throughout the history of the world.

[Amore Vero]

roserum,
I am so sorry you feel this way. It is sad to see any woman not understand how Heavenly Father feels about her & her role & rights. I do not know why you believe these things for they are far from what the Prophets teach.

Only a marriage with 2 leaders can be successful & righteous & eternal. For one spouse is usually unrighteous, & the Prophets say that is usually the man, so the other spouse, the wife, can keep the unrighteous husband from leading the family astray, if she honors her leadership role & refuses to go along with anything she feels is wrong. Unfortunately most women do not honor their leadership role & they make the man lead alone, which causes him to usually lead unrighteously. It takes 2 leaders, who keep track of each other, to keep a family on track.

A marriage works just like how the House & the Senate work in a Constitutional Government. Either can come up with an idea but if the other doesn't also agree than it doesn't happen & it goes back to the drawing board or gets thrown out.

I had written a long post to each of your questions & comments but I guess I touched the wrong key & I lost the whole post. I don't have time to retype it all but I just wish you could study these things out more & come to a greater understanding of women's divine roles & power.

I will say one thing though. Eve was not cursed at all by Heavenly Father. The Prophets have taught over & over how she was greatly honored & blessed because of her courage & righteousness to partake of the fruit 1st & lead Adam to do the same. Heavenly Father was so greatful that she took this grand & glorious step into mortal life & motherhood, that he wanted to reassure her & promise her that he would instruct Adam to 'watch over her' (rule is not what he meant the Prophets say) & that Adam would serve her every wish & protect her & provide for all her needs & desires, even above his own, so she could focus on the greatest calling of all, Motherhood. Never did he intend for Adam to have any power over Eve, she showed the more valiant leadership qualities in partaking of the fruit 1st. Adam showed his humility in following Eve's righteous lead. Adam was never to rule, dicate or make decisions without Eve's equal input & consent.

Pres. Kimball taught how Adam & Eve ruled equally together in the Garden & watched over each other, both being equal leaders. Since they were both righteous, we know Adam never would have started abusing Eve by ruling over her & putting her in a secondary position after the fall, (as Pres. Hinckley said most men have abusively done through-out history). Adam would have continued to respect & honor her equal station & power as his in the leadership of the family.

Also, Women because of their natural Charity are actually the born leaders. Whoever is the most righteous is the best leader. And the Prophets have said that women have a superior righteousness in marriage. Men rarely make good leaders because of their pride & controlling tendencies.

Thus Heavenly Father gives the woman the children 1st & makes her the 1st leader & presider of the family. Only if the husband is righteous & will listen & submit 1st to the wife, is she to allow him to lead along side her over the children she bore & thus feel safe to submit & listen to him too.

But it is rare for a man to be righteous, for, as the Prophets say, it is the disposition of nearly all men to be abusive. Sadly this seems to be true through-out history & still today. Of course some women are also abusive but as Pres. Hinckley said, it is usually the man that causes most marriage problems & divorces.

[NoGreaterLove]

Rose
Unfortunately Amore is of the opinion that there is a greater sex, women. She believes that women should rule the world and save us poor men from our caveman condition. It appears she has been abused by some man in her life and now spends a lot of time trying to convince us that every man is evil and women are good.

If you will review her writings on this forum you will see this is the common theme. I wonder how her Heavenly Father (a male) feels about her degradation of his sons? Or how our Savior (a male also) feels about her demeaning the role he played as a Priesthood holder when he gave his life for us. Interesting that our Heavenly Father allows worthy men to act as if he were Christ himself and perform ordinances, proclaim revelation for the Church, and lead his family. When a man gives a blessing holding the priesthood of God, he speaks for God, stands in Gods place. When a women blesses her children, it is a petition to God for that blessing. She holds no authority to speak as if she were him. So there is a difference. A man can not act in the capacity of motherhood and the woman can not act in the capacity of God.
Rose the covenants in the temple are true. There is no misguidance. We obviously can not discuss them here because of there sacredness.

[Amore Vero]

Rose
Unfortunately Amore is of the opinion that there is a greater sex, women. She believes that women should rule the world and save us poor men from our caveman condition. It appears she has been abused by some man in her life and now spends a lot of time trying to convince us that every man is evil and women are good.

If you will review her writings on this forum you will see this is the common theme. I wonder how her Heavenly Father (a male) feels about her degradation of his sons?

I am sorry if the Prophet's teachings offend you. Everything I write I learned from Prophets. Just because you haven't read what the Prophets have said about these topics doesn't make it untrue.

Righteous men would agree with everything I said.

[Hyrcanus]

I'm new around here, take it easy on me

My wife and I have talked about this topic quite a bit. I think the problem can be divided into two parts.

The first and biggest problem is that people are looking for a fight in this issue. Either men are wicked and the problem or women are wicked and the problem. I don't think it's that easy and most of the attempts to say that one side bears the majority of the burden are using selective reasoning to reach their conclusion. Both men and women have specific roles they've been set apart to do. Mothers and Fathers can rule a family equally even if they don't have identical responsibilities. Because of these uniquely suited roles each of them have, they'll also occasionally stray off the path and attack the other gender in different ways. We can't be myopic in our assessment of the other gender's problems, or we're just contributing to the problem. I think the proper structure has been laid out clearly by the Lord and his appointed leaders. In the church men and women work side by side with different roles, but equal authority over their appointed areas (not to say that every member is perfect, the idea itself is perfect). That should be the goal each of us duplicate in our family structures.

The second problem, and specifically related to the "right" to vote, is that we've seen a shift over the history of our country from what the founder's original vision was. Initially, the goal was that each voter would be someone with a serious stake in the success of the federation of states. In order to participate you needed to have something to lose, not just something to gain. That helped to ensure that the balance of power was maintained between the federal government, the states and the individual. Over time, that idea shifted. As we burned off some of the problems the Constitution had (like institutionalizing slavery), we also allowed the power of the vote to shift as well. Instead of only allowing those with a strong interest in the success (or failure) of the country to vote, we started to think of the vote as a natural right for everyone. That expanded obviously to allowing women to vote and now days we occasionally hear debate about lowering the voting age even further.

So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.

First post, kind of a long one, hope it makes sense.

[Rensai]

I'm new around here, take it easy on me
The second problem, and specifically related to the "right" to vote, is that we've seen a shift over the history of our country from what the founder's original vision was. Initially, the goal was that each voter would be someone with a serious stake in the success of the federation of states. In order to participate you needed to have something to lose, not just something to gain. That helped to ensure that the balance of power was maintained between the federal government, the states and the individual. Over time, that idea shifted. As we burned off some of the problems the Constitution had (like institutionalizing slavery), we also allowed the power of the vote to shift as well. Instead of only allowing those with a strong interest in the success (or failure) of the country to vote, we started to think of the vote as a natural right for everyone. That expanded obviously to allowing women to vote and now days we occasionally hear debate about lowering the voting age even further.

So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.

First post, kind of a long one, hope it makes sense.

Well said. It is important that voter's "have something to lose" as you say. That is why the original voting system said only land owners could vote. There was nothing in the constitution saying women couldn't vote. They could, and did vote, if they owned land. It was just rare for a woman to own land in those days. The problem with giving women the right to vote is that it gave everyone, man or woman, the right to vote who didn't own land. Thus, their only real interest in voting was in picking the candidate that would redistribute the wealth from the land owners. This is a big reason why the democrats want to give amnesty to the illegals. They would be a huge block (Estimated at around 40 million people) with nothing to lose, and everything to gain by voting in socialists who promise to steal from the rest of us for them.

That is the problem with the giving women the vote. They twisted it and pretended it was some sexist issue, but it was really about making sure voters had a real stake in the country before being able to vote. It protected everyone's real rights. Does everyone with a pulse have a right to vote? Or is it a privilege that should be earned somehow? The founders felt that a person who owned land would generally be demonstrated as a responsible person with an interest in keeping government in check and that was the requirement they chose. Now the only requirement is a certain age, and I think we'd all agree that unfortunately, age does not necessarily make a person into a good, responsible, citizen or voter.

This change has turned our country into a democracy. The founders hated democracy and rightly recognized that it was not a valid form of government, rather just a stepping stone to tyranny/socialism. We are living that transition now and seeing first hand that move from democracy into tyranny. Democracy just does not work and that is what that voting change led to.

[shadow]

How to govern a wayward wife ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gapT5-l1D1U