Women's Right to Vote

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
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Hyrcanus
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Hyrcanus »

Amore Vero wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.
Having one vote per household would only work in Zion, where both spouses were righteous & wanted the same things or where the man would always go with what his wife wanted as he is commanded to do.

In a Telestial world you have many, if not most, marriages where the husband & wife feel differently about political matters, & most husbands will use unrighteous dominion & think he has the last say & make the decision himself usually according to what he wants to do.

To base voting upon an abusive system of marriage where only men own the family property & thus have a say in public affairs, only makes things worse in society. One of the problems in our world has been that men have not honored women's equal rights, such as owning property. God wants woman to equally own all property in marriage. Both should be considered land owners. But men have abusively controlled women throughout most of history & not honored her equal rights to property as God intended her to have.

Had women been allowed to vote before now, they would have changed that property rights thing quick, & rightfully so. God never intended for men to own the family property by himself & make any decisions by himself or have the last say.

Amazingly enough in even 2010, a few men still choose to believe they have the last say in decision making. But as the Lord warns us, when a couple can't agree on something, it is the inclination of almost all men to want to just make the decision himself & do what he thinks is best. But that is spouse abuse & control. The same as if a woman tried it.

The Prophets have said that a man who thinks he has the last say or makes decisions against the consent or agreement of his wife, should be tried for his membership. Pres. Hinckley said excommunication is usually the penalty for such, for it is unrighteous dominion & severe abuse.

It is also a sin for a wife to allow her husband to think he has the last say or make decisions against her will & consent. Heavenly Father expects wives to call for respect from their husbands & not allow him to abuse & control her & disrespect her equal say & veto power in all decisions. If he still forces his will upon her even after she tries to teach him what is right, then she is not accountable for his abusive decision making.

Like the House & the Senate, Husbands & wives are completely equal in the governing & presiding & decision making of the marriage & family. No decision can be put in force righteously unless both agree. And no woman is obligated to go along with her husband's if she does not believe his opinion or desire to be good or right or something she agrees with or wants to do.

In an impasse, where they cannot agree on something, the Prophets teach that a righteous husband would always go with whatever the wife wanted or desired & not with what he wanted to do, unless what she wanted was down right evil of course.

The Proclamation of course does not list all of the woman's roles, it only lists her most vital one. This was a Proclamation going out to the world, where the Prophet knew that many men throughout the world are still not willing to honor their wife's equal position in leadership yet. But Prophets have taught the members of the Church over & over that she also presides equally with the man over the family as a 'co-presider & president', as Elder Perry said.

Though most men reading this are probably righteous & would never think they have the last say or be abusive to their wife, there are still some men today who believe such is ok. The Church says that righteous men have a duty to protect all women from abuse, so if they know of other men with such errant thinking & behavior, they must speak up & help stop his abuse & protect the wife, even if she doesn't realize she is being abused & is ok with it, as some wives sadly are.
This cuts both ways. A strong "anti-man" rhetoric is no better then a strong "anti-woman" rhetoric. You're suggesting that a one vote per household system wouldn't work in today's world, but look at where we've gotten by handing out votes to everyone that can fog a mirror. Both systems have problems when abused, why not move to a constitutional system and work on solving the problems?

Families should already be striving for unity in their homes. I'm not sure the Lord considers it any less of a problem if husbands and wives vote in different directions today, instead of butting heads about it under a one vote per home system.

As far as the roles of husbands and wives, I'll leave it to the Prophet to let us know if he left any roles off the Proclamation. I won't assume he has more for me as a husband, it isn't any wiser to assume he has additional for my wife. We have to base our behavior on what the prophets have told us to do, not what we think they may tell us to do at some future date.

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Rensai
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Rensai »

Amore Vero wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: So the problem isn't women voting or not voting. If we ran the country the way I believe the Lord originally intended it. Each household would have a vote; families would discuss the elections and come of a conclusion through careful thought and prayer of who to cast their vote for. Sadly, this isn't the way it works today, but I don't think we should allow lazy thinking to lead us to the conclusion that one gender or the other is to blame for the problems.
Having one vote per household would only work in Zion, where both spouses were righteous & wanted the same things or where the man would always go with what his wife wanted as he is commanded to do.

In a Telestial world you have many, if not most, marriages where the husband & wife feel differently about political matters, & most husbands will use unrighteous dominion & think he has the last say & make the decision himself usually according to what he wants to do.

To base voting upon an abusive system of marriage where only men own the family property & thus have a say in public affairs, only makes things worse in society. One of the problems in our world has been that men have not honored women's equal rights, such as owning property. God wants woman to equally own all property in marriage. Both should be considered land owners. But men have abusively controlled women throughout most of history & not honored her equal rights to property as God intended her to have.

Had women been allowed to vote before now, they would have changed that property rights thing quick, & rightfully so. God never intended for men to own the family property by himself & make any decisions by himself or have the last say.

Amazingly enough even in 2010, a few men still choose to believe they have the last say in decision making. But as the Lord warns us, when a couple can't agree on something, it is the inclination of almost all men to want to just make the decision himself & do what he thinks is best. But that is spouse abuse & control. The same as if a woman tried it.

The Prophets have said that a man who thinks he has the last say or makes decisions against the consent or agreement of his wife, should be tried for his membership. Pres. Hinckley said excommunication is usually the penalty for such, for it is unrighteous dominion & severe abuse. A man will always lose the Spirit & his Priesthood if he does such.

It is also a sin for a wife to allow her husband to think he has the last say or make decisions against her will & consent. Heavenly Father expects wives to call for respect from their husbands & not allow him to abuse & control her & disrespect her equal say & veto power in all decisions. If he still forces his will upon her even after she tries to teach him what is right, then she is not accountable for his abusive decision making.

Like the House & the Senate, Husbands & wives are completely equal in the governing & presiding & decision making of the marriage & family. No decision can be put in force righteously unless both agree. And no woman is obligated to go along with her husband's if she does not believe his opinion or desire to be good or right or something she agrees with or wants to do.

In an impasse, where they cannot agree on something, the Prophets teach that a righteous husband would always go with whatever the wife wanted or desired & not with what he wanted to do, unless what she wanted was down right evil of course.

The Proclamation of course does not list all of the woman's roles, it only lists her most vital one. This was a Proclamation going out to the world, where the Prophet knew that many men throughout the world are still not willing to honor their wife's equal position in leadership yet. But Prophets have taught the members of the Church over & over that she also presides equally with the man over the family as a 'co-presider & co-president', as Elder Perry said.

Though most men reading this are probably righteous & would never think they have the last say or be abusive to their wife, there are still some men today who believe such is ok. The Church says that righteous men have a duty to protect all women from abuse, so if they know of other men with such errant thinking & behavior, they must speak up & help stop his abuse & protect the wife, even if she doesn't realize she is being abused & is ok with it, as some wives sadly are.
Do provide some direct quotes from the prophets for these statements you ascribe to them. You are very quick to claim to know the mind of God and his prophets, even when your interpretation flies directly in the face of scripture and reason. Let's see the quotes for these teachings you are referring to.

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ChelC
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by ChelC »

shadow wrote:How to govern a wayward wife :lol: ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gapT5-l1D1U
:lol: That's a funny movie... and that woman deserved it!

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

Reading through this, I think that something really important is missing. There is a leader in marriage, and that is Jesus Christ.

It is Christ that is the leader, and wives are to submit to their husbands, when he is submitting to the Lord. I think this is really important.

My view on what marriage should be, is that Christ is like the bishop, and our spouse and ourselves are counselors. We don't counsel the Lord though, but we seek counsel from Him. Our children are under our stewardship, but they do not belong to us. In the Proclamation on the Family, when it talks about the roles and that they are shared as equals, what I read is that we have been given divine roles and responsibilities, but that we are both equally responsible to fulfill them. If a child needs nurturing, the father can assist. If the father is unable to preside at that moment, then a mother can assist. We have very specific roles, but have the the divine duty of fulfilling those roles as is needed in the family.

As a single mother, I definitely miss the blessings of sharing and assisting each other in our respective roles. It is not truly possible to do it all, but I do the best I can with the Lord's help.

I have not been on the forum consistently for awhile, and perhaps it is just the few topics that I have read, but there does seem to be a dividing spirit here, and I am not sure where it is coming from. I am disconnected from a lot in the media and the world, but it seems really loud in the conversations I have seen today. Sons and Daughters of God lifting their gender above another, assuming that one is more righteous. I do not know why either would tear down the other, both are needed for celestial glory. There are those of both genders that make mistakes, but we are all sinners. And if we think that we are not, then we really need to take a good look in the mirror.

While many who know my situation would say my ex is a very wicked and sinful man, and completely blame him, but the truth is, I made mistakes too, and I am not sinless. I may not have committed serious sins, but I still sinned too. I don't think that a marriage dissolves from just one persons actions. Going to the church's pilot program for healing from painful relationships, has made this very clear to me. When we focus so much on the sins of someone else, we lose sight of our own salvation, and we begin to digress, simply because we have stopped working on our relationship with God. While it is true that we cannot get to the Celestial Kingdom on some else's coat tails, it is also true that we cannot get there by trying to drag someone else, and not working on ourselves.

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

Proud 2b Peculiar wrote:It is Christ that is the leader, and wives are to submit to their husbands, when he is submitting to the Lord.

When we focus so much on the sins of someone else, we lose sight of our own salvation, and we begin to digress, simply because we have stopped working on our relationship with God. While it is true that we cannot get to the Celestial Kingdom on some else's coat tails, it is also true that we cannot get there by trying to drag someone else, and not working on ourselves.
I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man. Only then can the woman know it is safe & can trust her man with her submission in turn. Any righteous woman would of course desire to submit to & fulfill all the wishes of her righteous submissive husband who listens to her & fulfills all of her wishes. That would of course be the 'ideal marriage'.

Only when husbands & wives are so submissive to each other can they hear the voice of the Lord & be able to follow the Lord's counsel in everything. I believe that if a husband can't submit to his wife he will never be able to submit to the Lord. That is the true test of men in this life, to see if they will submit to their wife. And then if he does, the woman is tested to see if she will do the same in return.

I also believe that only by loving & helping our spouse to overcome their sins & weaknesses, even if it takes a lifetime, 1st before worrying about our own selves, is the only way to work on ourselves & make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.

Loving & serving our enemies is what perfects us the fastest, especially if the enemy is our spouse.

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ChelC
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by ChelC »

Amore Vero wrote: I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man. Only then can the woman know it is safe & can trust her man with her submission in turn. Any righteous woman would of course desire to submit to & fulfill all the wishes of her righteous submissive husband who listens to her & fulfills all of her wishes. That would be the 'ideal marriage'.

I also believe that only by loving & helping our spouse to overcome their sins & weaknesses, even if it takes a lifetime, 1st before worrying about our own selves, is the only way to work on ourselves & make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.

Loving & serving our enemies is what perfects us the fastest, especially if the enemy is our spouse.
:shock: This is so false I don't know where to start. Do women really want spineless men who cower to their every whim? I know I don't. Likewise, my husband doesn't want that in me. I hope and pray my sons don't marry a woman who treats them as subjects.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Hyrcanus »

Amore Vero wrote:I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man.
I must have missed that "IF" when my wife and I were sealed. Not to mention in the rest of the body of Prophetic counsel and scripture.

I'm not sure why we can't just acknowledge the Lord's plan as he laid it out for the equality of spouses. Do we really think there is a flaw in his plan that we need to modify his words to improve appropriately. Personally I'd rather just heed their words exactly as spoken instead of trying to "improve" on his plan because I think I've found some key item he forgot.

Besides, if I told my wife I was going to submit to everything she ever said before she submitted to me (sounds ridiculous to even type it), she'd slap me and tell me to be a man and take the initiative :)

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

ChelC wrote: This is so false I don't know where to start. Do women really want spineless men who cower to their every whim? I know I don't. Likewise, my husband doesn't want that in me. I hope and pray my sons don't marry a woman who treats them as subjects.

There is nothing spineless about a man who submits to his wife. In fact it takes the most righteous & honorable of men to have the humility to do so. Thus it is very rare & today a righteous man is considered a miracle.

It also takes a woman of high self-worth & self respect to expect & inspire such respect & righteousness from her man. Sadly today many women do not believe in True Love & respect from a man.

But a nobel man lives to love & serve the every wish of his lady.

I am sorry for all those who have never known a truely righteous man who understands & lives this. Though they are rare, they are out there.
Last edited by Amore Vero on July 30th, 2010, 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ChelC
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by ChelC »

Hyrcanus wrote:
Amore Vero wrote:I agree that women should submit to their husbands IF the husband has followed the Lord to submit to her 1st. I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man.
I must have missed that "IF" when my wife and I were sealed. Not to mention in the rest of the body of Prophetic counsel and scripture.

I'm not sure why we can't just acknowledge the Lord's plan as he laid it out for the equality of spouses. Do we really think there is a flaw in his plan that we need to modify his words to improve appropriately. Personally I'd rather just heed their words exactly as spoken instead of trying to "improve" on his plan because I think I've found some key item he forgot.

Besides, if I told my wife I was going to submit to everything she ever said before she submitted to me (sounds ridiculous to even type it), she'd slap me and tell me to be a man and take the initiative :)
Agreed. I remember an "as" in the endowment... but it aint followed up with hearkening to the wife, lol!

Your wife sounds like a good woman! :D

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Hyrcanus »

Amore Vero wrote:
ChelC wrote: This is so false I don't know where to start. Do women really want spineless men who cower to their every whim? I know I don't. Likewise, my husband doesn't want that in me. I hope and pray my sons don't marry a woman who treats them as subjects.

There is nothing spineless about a man who submits to his wife. In fact it takes the most righteous & honorable of men to have the humility to do so. Thus it is very rare & today a righteous man is considered a miracle.

It also takes a woman of high self-worth & self respect to expect & inspire such respect & righteousness from her man. Sadly today many women do not believe in True Love & respect from a man.

But a nobel man lives to love & serve the every wish of his lady.
I know you've been asked this at least 5 times that I've read in the past, but could you please provide a reference that backs up your claim that the Lord has commanded a husband to submit to his wife before she'll submit to him and the Lord? I've never heard or read this anywhere.

I have no argument that husbands and wives should strive to serve each other in every way. My wife and I work towards that goal every day. I don't think anyone would argue with that, but you're getting push back because every single post you make sounds ridiculously lopsided, men are always the evil degenerates. That isn't any better a mindset then a misogynist that has the same attitude towards women.

Edit: My wife is a good woman, she has kept me in line for 7 years now :)

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

Hyrcanus wrote: I know you've been asked this at least 5 times that I've read in the past, but could you please provide a reference that backs up your claim that the Lord has commanded a husband to submit to his wife before she'll submit to him and the Lord? I've never heard or read this anywhere.
There is no 1 or 2 or even 10 quotes to show this clearly, it takes the study of many scriptures & quotes & talks along with the Spirit to put together numerous pieces of a puzzle to finally see & undertand the grand picture. Then on top of all that you have to actually live this principle in your own marriage to know how true it is.

I do not have time to do go back & do all the researching for the basis of my testimony on these things & besides if the Spirit doesn't convey the truth of these things, nothing I post from even Prophets will convince anyone otherwise, I know that from much past experience of trying.

Only the Spirit & your living this principle can truely teach you how powerful & true it is.

To know the truth of these things & anything else we must all go down the same path & study & pray to know & find the evidence of these things & then live them.

But I do testify that these truths are the only way to true happiness & exultant ecstacy in marriage, that Pres. Hinckley said was possible in this life. I have lived these principles & have to come to know this exultant ecstacy & I know that it's the only way to make your marriage eternal.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Hyrcanus »

Amore Vero wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: I know you've been asked this at least 5 times that I've read in the past, but could you please provide a reference that backs up your claim that the Lord has commanded a husband to submit to his wife before she'll submit to him and the Lord? I've never heard or read this anywhere.
There is no 1 or 2 or even 10 quotes to show this clearly, it takes the study of many scriptures & quotes & talks along with the Spirit to put together numerous pieces of a puzzle to finally see & undertand the grand picture. Then on top of all that you have to actually live this principle in your own marriage to know how true it is.

I do not have time to do go back & do all the researching for the basis of my testimony on these things & besides if the Spirit doesn't convey the truth of these things, nothing I post from even Prophets will convince anyone otherwise, I know that from much past experience of trying.

Only the Spirit & your living this principle can truely teach you how powerful & true it is.

To know the truth of these things & anything else we must all go down the same path & study & pray to know & find the evidence of these things & then live them.

But I do testify that these truths are the only way to true happiness & exultant ecstacy in marriage, that Pres. Hinckley said was possible in this life & it's the only way to make your marriage eternal.
Or I could just stick to the counsel given directly in the scriptures, by the Prophets and at the Temple. That counsel is very clear on the order the Lord expects in his house.

For what it's worth, you would be better off encouraging people to follow the clear counsel and guidance that we've received on the order we're expected to follow, instead of advocating for some secret order that isn't immediately apparent in the Temple/Scriptures/Prophets.

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

Hyrcanus wrote: Or I could just stick to the counsel given directly in the scriptures, by the Prophets and at the Temple. That counsel is very clear on the order the Lord expects in his house.

For what it's worth, you would be better off encouraging people to follow the clear counsel and guidance that we've received on the order we're expected to follow, instead of advocating for some secret order that isn't immediately apparent in the Temple/Scriptures/Prophets.



The reason we have hundreds of different religions & Churchs from 1 Bible or even many different opinions among members on what even our Prophets say, is because one person can hear or read something & come away with something completely opposite what someone else does, depending on their other study of the Gospel & how they live & if the Spirit can get through to them or not.

Just because what you interpret from what is written in the scriptures or by Prophets or even spoken in the temple, doesn't mean that someone else can't hear something completely different & be right.

Heavenly Father doesn't make everything clear & easy to understand at just the simple words given in the temple or in one Prophet's talk, he requires us to dig & study & pray for the whole truth about something.

And most importantly, as Pres. Benson said, it takes revelation to understand revelation. Otherwise we can & often do, all hear different things from the exact temple ceremony & everyone think they are right.

Many wonderful & righteous men I have talked to are not resistant in the least to the principle of submitting to their wife too, in fact they even say things like "Of course I should, far more than her submitting to me."

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shadow
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by shadow »

Amore Vero wrote: I believe that the Lord requires husbands to completely submit to the wife in all matters in the marriage 1st, before women are ever asked to submit to the man. Only then can the woman know it is safe & can trust her man with her submission in turn. Any righteous woman would of course desire to submit to & fulfill all the wishes of her righteous submissive husband who listens to her & fulfills all of her wishes. That would of course be the 'ideal marriage'.
So just to clarify, the husband submits to the wife in all things even when she's wrong but the wife only submits to the husband when he is righteous and after he has submitted to her? Is that what you call "equality"?

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

shadow wrote: So just to clarify, the husband submits to the wife in all things even when she's wrong but the wife only submits to the husband when he is righteous and after he has submitted to her? Is that what you call "equality"?
No, if what the wife wants is evil than no of course he should not go along with evil. But the wife has the high calling of Motherhood & the husband's role on earth is to provide for her whatever she needs to make her happy & comfortable & protected in that role, especially before anything he wants or needs.

Pres. Hinckley gave a great promise when he said:

"If you will make your 1st concern the comfort, well-being & happiness of your companion, sublimating any personal concern to that loftier goal, you will be happy & your marriage will go on through eternity."

I also might add, that I am not against men at all, as it may seem to some, I actually feel to practically worship a truely righteous man for he is so rare & wonderful. And I believe women should save their husband if needed by the power of True Love & visa versa. I believe all women should love & serve the every wish of their husbands, even if he doesn't do it for her, & even if he is very wicked. For choosing to have True Love, even if our spouse doesn't deserve it & loving our enemies, even if that is our spouse, is the fastest road to perfection & true happiness & Exaltation.

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shadow
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by shadow »

Amore Vero wrote:
shadow wrote: So just to clarify, the husband submits to the wife in all things even when she's wrong but the wife only submits to the husband when he is righteous and after he has submitted to her? Is that what you call "equality"?
No, if what the wife wants is evil than no of course he should not go along with evil. But the wife has the high calling of Motherhood & the husband's role on earth is to provide for her whatever she needs to make her happy & comfortable & protected in that role, especially before anything he wants or needs.
So you're just saying that we whould put our spouses good and wholesome needs and wants above our own?? That I agree! You just have a funny way of saying it 8)

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Hyrcanus »

Amore Vero wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote: Or I could just stick to the counsel given directly in the scriptures, by the Prophets and at the Temple. That counsel is very clear on the order the Lord expects in his house.

For what it's worth, you would be better off encouraging people to follow the clear counsel and guidance that we've received on the order we're expected to follow, instead of advocating for some secret order that isn't immediately apparent in the Temple/Scriptures/Prophets.



The reason we have hundreds of different religions & Churchs from 1 Bible or even many different opinions among members on what even our Prophets say, is because one person can hear or read something & come away with something completely opposite what someone else does, depending on their other study of the Gospel & how they live & if the Spirit can get through to them or not.

Just because what you interpret from what is written in the scriptures or by Prophets or even spoken in the temple, doesn't mean that someone else can't hear something completely different & be right.

Heavenly Father doesn't make everything clear & easy to understand at just the simple words given in the temple or in one Prophet's talk, he requires us to dig & study & pray for the whole truth about something.

And most importantly, as Pres. Benson said, it takes revelation to understand revelation. Otherwise we can & often do, all hear different things from the exact temple ceremony & everyone think they are right.

Many wonderful & righteous men I have talked to are not resistant in the least to the principle of submitting to their wife too, in fact they even say things like "Of course I should, far more than her submitting to me."
I understand a difference of opinion when the Prophets have been unclear or appeared to contradict themselves. What I'm asking you to provide is some of those quotes/references that would show a basis for our misunderstanding. So far you've declined to do that, which leaves you with no evidence, and the rest of us with the precise instructions given in the Temple, scriptures and by the Prophets.

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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

shadow wrote: So you're just saying that we whould put our spouses good and wholesome needs and wants above our own?? That I agree! You just have a funny way of saying it 8)
Yes, well, the problem comes when one spouse wants something that the other doesn't think is best or good, but it doesn't quite fall in the catagory of an 'evil' desire. One spouse tends to judge the other's requests & justify not going along because it may not be best, though not really evil.

Like if one spouse wants to move to a different city or house, or one wants to go on a certain vacation, or one spouse would like the other to take up some sport they could do together or buy something the other doesn't want to (assuming you can afford it), or even little things like which resturant to go to, or what to have for dinner or what color to paint the living room. Our spouse has little requests all day long we can learn to fulfill.

Whenever we disagree & our spouse's desire is not evil, even though we think our thinking may be better or wiser, we should give them what they want. How can arguments ever come up when we are like Ammon was to (even the very wicked & undeserving) King Lamoni when he said (as we should daily to our spouse) "What wilt thou have me do, oh King/Queen?"

Serving your spouse's every wish all day long will cause you to fall madly in love with them, whether they ever catch on & do the same for you. You will thus be able to enjoy the exaltant ecstacy & feelings of True Love (which is what everyone craves) even if your spouse doesn't yet. Which feelings are what Heavenly Father wants us to have & enjoy, so to help get us through the trials of marriage & life.

Watch the movie "Fireproof" for somewhat of an example of how this works. Yet, we can take it even farther than they did in the movie.
Last edited by Amore Vero on July 30th, 2010, 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ChelC
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by ChelC »

I'm curious to know why you capitalize True Love?

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

ChelC wrote:I'm curious to know why you capitalize True Love?

For emphasis, & for respect, for I believe 'True Love' is 'the' gospel of Jesus Christ, the primary principle he came to teach the world, which every other doctrine or principle in the universe hinges on.

Without True Love (Charity) we are nothing & our marriage will not last.

A Me
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by A Me »

This is a fascinating discussion and good points have been made all around. I think there's a lot more agreement here than appears at first glance.

I'm really intrigued, Amore, by the way you've described submission. I think a big part of the confusion is that you're using the word in a way that doesn't fit with the connotation.

According to my dictionary (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition) the word "submit" means:

(vt) 1a. to yield to governance or authority, b: to subject to a condition, treatment or operation, 2: to present or propose to another for review, consideration, or decision; to deliver formally, 3: to put forward as an opinion or contention
(vi) 1a: to yield onself to the authority or will of another, b: to permit oneself to be subjected to something, 2: to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another.

I think you're using the second version, 1b and 2. However, the whole gist of the word's meaning is that once you submit, you are no longer in authority. You are following someone else. Does that make sense? I really want to be clear on this so this post may be long.

I think you're right when you say the husband should consult with his wife first. Jacob consulted his wives when he wanted to leave Laban and move back to the land he'd come from. See where I get confused is when you talk about how both must submit to the other. What do you mean by the word "submission"? Because the way you've described your meaning says "Whenever we disagree & our spouse's desire is not evil, even though we think our thinking may be better or wiser, we should give them what they want." If that's what you mean by submission then I can see where a lot of the confusion is coming from.

I'll give a non-spiritual example.

Person A wants a sandwich and asks Person B to make one. Person B is exhausted from work (and I'm using the term broadly here to include all kinds) and would rather go to bed early. However, for the sake of the discussion, let's say Person A can't make his/her own sandwich. Broken arms. So, not only will Person B have to make the sandwich, s/he'll have to help feed Person A.

If Person A submits to the other, then Person B is not submitting, because Person A's need (hunger) is not fulfilled. If Person B submits and makes the sandwich, then Person A is not submitting because Person B's need (sleep) is not fulfilled.

Even if Person B goes ahead and makes the sandwich, helps Person A eat, then goes to sleep, that's still time lost resting. Both cannot submit to the other without sacrificing something.

I see what you're saying when it comes to things where a compromise can be found. I want to paint the walls blue. My husband wants to paint them pink. We paint the walls in pink and blue stripes. LOL.

However, there are times when one person must lead or nothing happens. The question in those moments is who? Which one gets their way? If I'm busy with the children during a crisis, am I going to take time to stand by my husband while he makes vital decisions or expect him to come to me and consult with me when time is an issue? No. I would rather he make decisions as the head of the household and trust that he's making wise ones while I take care of the kids.

I was going to say more about checks and balances within the family, but instead I'll talk a little about what Heavenly Father has taught me, both through the written words of scriptures and prophets and through divine revelation about my husband's role as a presiding figure in the home.

I rarely receive revelation anymore unless it is for the sisters I VT (I don't have any other calling at the moment), myself on a personal level, or my children. The vast majority of revelation for our family comes through my husband. It confused me because I once thought both received the right equally. The only reason would be through unrighteousness on the part of one. Through prayer on the subject I learned that both do, but that the husband presides. The only times I have received revelation for my husband are when he's been refusing to listen to the Spirit (for whatever reason... not necessarily rebellion) or when something he needs to do must be made especially clear. Because he respects me, he has a tendency to listen to me.

These moments are very, very, very rare. Even most of the revelation we've received regarding our children comes through my husband. It is his right as the father of our home. It is part of his job as the presiding figure. As such, when a decision is to be made, and it involves prayer, we both pray, he receives the revelation and I receive confirmation from the Spirit. If I don't receive confirmation, I continue to pray until I do or until I get a clear signal that he is wrong. At which point, we pray again for more guidance. I will say that so far I've never gotten a confirmation he's wrong during those times when we've prayed.

There have also been times when I've wanted to tell my husband he's wrong in something and the Spirit has constrained me. Why? Because my husband doesn't answer to me. He answers to God and God is the one who will chastise him as he sees fit. There are times I think he's going to do something that isn't a sin but is stupid and I'll warn him, but that's about it. He answers to God, not me. It's the curse of presiding. :) Doesn't mean I have to follow him, either. Only as he follows the Lord.

This doesn't mean I can slack off in spiritual things. I need to be able to feel that confirmation so that I know whether the Lord is speaking through my husband or not. But as I said, it is only the confirmation, not the revelation itself.

I think Amore, this is another example of what you're trying to say when you mean that both should submit to the other: that neither moves until both are sure of the path. However, even in this example, one receives the revelation first and it isn't the woman. My husband is not submitting to me when God gives him revelation regarding our family. My experience with the Spirit has been that my husband presides over our home. The Spirit is strongest when I follow him as he follows God. I have found nothing in the scriptures, temple, or in the words of the prophets to contradict my personal experience.

And yes, this arrangement does increase True Love/Charity in our home.

I think that post is long enough. I hope it made sense. If I can take a breather, I think I'll write a much shorter post on women's right to vote. I love that topic and I'm glad to see a thread devoted to it. :)

Proud 2B Peculiar, I think there's more contention in general through the world. The pressure is rising and everyone is creeping closer to that moment when they're held over the volcano and show who they really are (if they aren't there already). Glad to see you're surviving.
Last edited by A Me on August 8th, 2010, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

A me,
I appreciate your responding to my post. But I'm afraid you didn't understand what I was saying.

1. Yes, it does present a problem when both spouses want to totally submit to the other & do the other's wishes, desires & choices before their own. But that is the beautiful divine dilemma that we all want to have with our spouse, for then both will be intune to receive correct revelation & inspiration from the Lord as to what the best thing to do would be & thus they would both receive the same answers & want the same things, or if it's insignificant, like painting the living room, they would just take turns giving each other what they want so both get to recieve the blessings of putting the other 1st. In other words, this is the dilemma you want to have with your spouse, that very few ever get to.

2. I just have never understood why so many women are willing to give up their divine rights & responsibility & power over their husband & children & home, just because the husband presides 'also'. To expect a husband to do all the presiding is not loving, kind or righteous. Wives need to take their half of the responsibility & not expect the man to have to do all the presiding. If you study what presiding means, you will see that in most homes, the woman actually is left, even often forced, to do most of the presiding, which is why the Church is continually reminding the men that they have a role & responsibility to preside, they just don't usually mention that the wife presides too, for that is a very sensitive thing that can cause most men to 'resist' presiding at all, if he must do it with the wife & not have all the power himself.

The Lord usually lets the Spirit teach that the wife also presides, for only strong righteous humble men can share power & authority freely & are willing to preside alongside their wife with her as an equal co-presider. And only women with high self-worth & respect are willing to do their half of the presiding along with him.

3. Both the husband & the wife should be receiving revelation & inspiration for each other & the family & usually most wives receive more revelation for him & her & the children than the husband, which he must completely submit to, before the wife is ever asked to do the same for him.

A Me
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by A Me »

I'm afraid I still don't understand what you were saying.

First, to make sure definitions are clear, when I say "preside" I mean:

1. to exercise guidance, direction, or control, 2a. to occupy the place of authority: act as president, chairman, or moderator, b. occupy a position similar to that of a president or chairman, 3. to occupy a position of featured instrumental performer (from same dictionary mentioned in earlier post)

Now that we have the definition in place so we both know what I'm saying when I use the word "preside", I'd like to look at your reply and see if we can't figure out where I'm not understanding you. Because I really do think you're just not coming across well.
1. Yes, it does present a problem when both spouses want to totally submit to the other & do the other's wishes, desires & choices before their own. But that is the beautiful divine dilemma that we all want to have with our spouse, for then both will be intune to receive correct revelation & inspiration from the Lord as to what the best thing to do would be & thus they would both receive the same answers & want the same things, or if it's insignificant, like painting the living room, they would just take turns giving each other what they want so both get to recieve the blessings of putting the other 1st. In other words, this is the dilemma you want to have with your spouse, that very few ever get to.
How does having a dilemma lead to suddenly being in tune with the Spirit? One doesn't necessarily follow the other. And will Heavenly Father really step in and mediate every decision? Going back to my earlier example, will Heavenly Father step in and say, "You should give up some sleep" or "You should forget about the sandwich"? Or will he act like he did with the Brother of Jared and say, "What do you think you should do?" Deciding whether a person should sleep or eat is not insignificant and that's why I chose it. Deciding how to light ships that would spend a great deal of time under water wasn't an insignificant decision either. And yet, Heavenly Father allowed the Brother of Jared to make that decision. Again, in the D&C he says that it isn't good for Him to command in all things. He expects us to use our minds.

I'm afraid you still haven't answered the question of submission, either. Because, as I said, if one of you is submitting, then the other isn't. If your point, however, is that men and women take turns sacrificing for each other and for the family they have been blessed to create, then I can agree with that. It does not mean that men no longer preside in the home.
2. I just have never understood why so many women are willing to give up their divine rights & responsibility & power over their husband & children & home, just because the husband presides 'also'. To expect a husband to do all the presiding is not loving, kind or righteous. Wives need to take their half of the responsibility & not expect the man to have to do all the presiding. If you study what presiding means, you will see that in most homes, the woman actually is left, even often forced, to do most of the presiding, which is why the Church is continually reminding the men that they have a role & responsibility to preside, they just don't usually mention that the wife presides too, for that is a very sensitive thing that can cause most men to 'resist' presiding at all, if he must do it with the wife & not have all the power himself.
This contradicts itself. On the one hand, you're saying that women keep giving up their divine right to preside, and on the other you're saying that women preside too much. I think you're trying to say there's a balance between roles, and if so, then I agree. Men, for example, shouldn't be so involved in work that they forget they have a home, and women shouldn't be so involved in their home and children that they forget they have a husband. That still does not take away a man's right to preside in the home.

I really think we aren't using the word preside in the same sense. The Proclamation on the Family is an inspired decree sent out to the world regarding the structure of the family and the consequences of ignoring that structure. I've noticed God uses words very carefully when he wants to say something, especially when he wants to warn his children, and so I don't think he had some other meaning outside of the meaning everyone understands when he used the word "preside" when talking about the father's role. After all, this wasn't some esoteric message for Church members only with a meaning only they could know; the Proclamation was sent through the whole world. And I'm sure that when it was translated, the word(s) used for "preside" had a meaning similar to the definition I quoted above. I have no source for that, but we have the Book of Mormon in more than one language here at our house and I've noticed that they tend to be pretty careful about keeping the original meaning intact.

Again, when God sends a warning, he makes himself clear to the people he's addressing. Every prophecy has been clear to the people to whom it was addressed.

The definition of "preside" I used above is singular in its application. Even your statement in 1. says that a couple would take turns having their way, thus one would follow while the other led. Someone would preside while the other became a follower.

If this is what you mean, that a couple takes turns presiding, then I see what you're saying. However, if that were true, then the Proclamation would have said the man and woman preside together over the family. It would have been part of the warning to the world to help them avoid the calamities to come. Instead, it says the man presides. The woman is given the enormous responsibility of nurturing the children... but she doesn't preside over the family.
3. Both the husband & the wife should be receiving revelation & inspiration for each other & the family & usually most wives receive more revelation for him & her & the children than the husband, which he must completely submit to, before the wife is ever asked to do the same for him.
If you're saying this is true for you in your situation, then perhaps I might shrug and say it's yours. But you're generalizing something that many women I've known with truly happy marriages have found isn't true.

I have never known a woman who received more revelation for her husband than he did for himself unless he wasn't living the gospel or honoring his priesthood as he should. Men who honor their priesthood receive revelation for their families. They definitely receive revelation over themselves just as I receive revelation for myself when I'm in tune and doing what I should.

Personally, I think it shows a lack of faith in God to force a husband to "completely" submit to a wife's revelation before a wife even listens to revelation God gives her husband. If you are both listening to the Spirit why does it matter if the man submits first? And which prophet, scripture, etc. says that?

Perhaps my example confused you. When I say "revelation" I mean the details of the plan of action we need to take. I usually just receive the witness from the Spirit that what my husband is telling me is true. There have been a few instances where we both received something at the same time, but those times are rare and usually have to do with doctrinal issues or a deeper understanding of current events. And when we act, it's together with the same goal in mind, though we act in different spheres.

I think most of the problems in this discussion come from either a confusion regarding the truths you've learned, or a lack of ability to communicate effectively.

If it's the first, perhaps you should spend some time outlining your beliefs and the sources you've used to come to those beliefs (see Skousen's view on the hidden truths of the atonement for an example) so that you can persuade others effectively. I know you've said it would take too long to outline years of study, but if the Savior can distill the law and prophets into two commandments (and we are to be like Him) then I'm sure that, given some time, you'll be able to do the same. To refuse to do so makes it sound like you have no sources... only your own opinion. Opinion is fine, but it should never be stated as doctrinal fact unless you have a specific source to which you can refer.

If it's the second, I think you should take some time to study more effective ways of communicating, with a focus on logic and definitions. This will help you state your opinions/beliefs more clearly and avoid problems like you've encountered on this thread.

And the reason I'm taking so much time in trying to understand is because what you've written reminds me of some of the things I've heard Maxine Hanks talk about. I'd hate to think that what you've been saying has been influenced by her writings.

Amore Vero
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Amore Vero »

A Me,

I am sorry, but I don't think I can be of further help for you to understand differently at this time. It is most difficult even face to face to help enlighten someones thinking, let alone over the internet. I just don't have the time it would take. It would be different if we could talk in person. But I have talked to many women who believe as you. And I have found that only the Spirit has the power to truely enlighten their minds or your mind & give you the courage to embrace & understand greater responsibility in your marriage. I have no power to do that.

But most women I know & associate with (all strong good LDS women with humble righteous husbands who feel the same as I do) do understand & appreciate their true equality & responsibility in marriage as I have described to you in my above posts. I hope one day you can come to understand the joy of presiding with your husband beside him, not under him, as "co-Presiders & co-Presidents" (as Elder Perry said in Gen. Conf.) over your family as Heavenly Father meant it to be & as it will be throughout eternity.

I know responsibility can be a scary & heavy thing, especially if your husband doesn't understand or accept your equal position with him, but it also is the only thing that brings us real happiness & joy & the greatest blessings of eternity.

And no, I have never heard of Maxine Hanks. I am an active LDS wife & mother & I only rely on Prophets of God for what I believe, which is where I base all my beliefs. I have found that only when we are ready to accept something, only then the Spirit shows us where the Prophets have taught it, but if we don't believe something, we will probably never see how Prophets have taught it. Heavenly Father does not force anything upon us, he gives us only the inspiration, knowledge, gifts & power that what we ask for & are ready to handle.

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Hyrcanus
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Re: Women's Right to Vote

Post by Hyrcanus »

Amore Vero wrote: I am an active LDS wife & mother & I only rely on Prophets of God for what I believe, which is where I base all my beliefs. I have found that only when we are ready to accept something, only then the Spirit shows us where the Prophets have taught it, but if we don't believe something, we will probably never see how Prophets have taught it. Heavenly Father does not force anything upon us, he gives us only the inspiration, knowledge, gifts & power that what we ask for & are ready to handle.
So could you point to the words of the Prophets that instruct us to ignore the order taught in the temple and have husbands submit to wives, before wives submit to their husbands?

Since you root everything you believe in the Prophets, I'm confident you'll produce the quote. Once you show us that quote, that will allow each of us to reflect on its meaning and determine the truth of what you are saying.

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