Dr. Ron Paul: Why Governments Hate Gold

[LoveIsTruth]

Dr. Ron Paul: Why Governments Hate Gold


Read it at
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/137055" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

• “I believe in honest money, the gold and silver coinage of the Constitution, and a circulating medium convertible into such money without loss. I regard it as a flagrant violation of the explicit provisions of the Constitution for the federal government to make it a criminal offense to use gold or silver coin as legal tender or to issue irredeemable paper money.”
  
  (Ezra Taft Benson, God, Family, Country: Our Three Great Loyalties, 1974.)
  
  Let us prepare ourselves for the trying time ahead and resolve that, with the grace of God and through our own self-reliance, we shall rebuild a monetary system and a healthy economy which, once again, will become the model for all the world. (An Enemy Hath Done This, pp. 220-21.)" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p 640.)

[Col. Flagg]

I haven't seen the video here yet, but the answer to why governments hate gold is simple... their blank check gets taken away to spend, spend and spend some more like drunken Sailors. When you're on a gold standard, you cannot spend more than the value of the physical gold you have. In 1971, Nixon took us off the gold standard and that is when our national debt began to explode.

[LoveIsTruth]

True that! Gold standard (100% commodity based standard) puts iron restrictions on government's ability to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That's why 100% commodity based standard is a great protector of liberty of the people, without which Liberty cannot long survive in the land!

[Col. Flagg]

True that! Gold standard (100% commodity based standard) puts iron restrictions on government's ability to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That's why 100% commodity based standard is a great protector of liberty of the people, without which Liberty cannot long survive in the land!

Amen!!

[ithink]

True that! Gold standard (100% commodity based standard) puts iron restrictions on government's ability to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That's why 100% commodity based standard is a great protector of liberty of the people, without which Liberty cannot long survive in the land!

Amen!!

Amen? Ye fools!

How about this: Re: Mr. William Shakespeare: Why I hate gold!

Earth, yield me roots!
[Digging]
Who seeks for better of thee, sauce his palate
With thy most operant poison! What is here?
Gold? yellow, glittering, precious gold? No, gods,
I am no idle votarist: roots, you clear heavens!
Thus much of this will make black white, foul fair,
Wrong right, base noble, old young, coward valiant.
Ha, you gods! why this? what this, you gods? Why, this
Will lug your priests and servants from your sides,
Pluck stout men's pillows from below their heads:
This yellow slave
Will knit and break religions, bless the accursed,
Make the hoar leprosy adored, place thieves
And give them title, knee and approbation
With senators on the bench: this is it
That makes the wappen'd widow wed again;
She, whom the spital-house and ulcerous sores
Would cast the gorge at, this embalms and spices
To the April day again. Come, damned earth,
Thou common whore of mankind, that put'st odds
Among the route of nations, I will make thee
Do thy right nature.

You, sirs, need to wake up: GOLD WILL NOT HELP YOU! The devil himself is not afraid of a return to the gold standard!

[LoveIsTruth]

Come, damned earth,
Thou common whore of mankind, that put'st odds
Among the route of nations, I will make thee
Do thy right nature.

Earth is a celestial being. And unless Shakespeare repents of this quote, he will not inherit it.

You, sirs, need to wake up: GOLD WILL NOT HELP YOU! The devil himself is not afraid of a return to the gold standard!

Your understanding of monetary systems is severely warped, to the point that you are incapable or unwilling to understand simple and sound reasoning. No better monetary system has been conceived by man to date, that would protect the purchasing power of the laborer better, and prevent the government from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation more than 100% commodity based monetary system!

Yes you read a few books. But the type of reasoning found in them is severely flawed as was demonstrated by the few quotes you used from them in other threads. And the fact that you are completely incapable of giving rational, logical reasons to support your position without sending everyone to read several books is a testimony to the fact that you yourself do not understand your position fully, and go on blind faith in the words of blind and conniving men.

There is no great mystery to honest money! (The banksters would like you believe it's all a mystery, but it is a lie.) Honest money is just another commodity used as a medium of exchange, who's purchasing power is determined by its intrinsic value! That's all!

We spoke about this before, and you are yet to produce any rational and logical reasoning to prove your point.

Please know, that our debate in no way is causing me to respect you less as a brother. My best wishes. Let reason rule!

[ithink]

Come, damned earth,
Thou common whore of mankind, that put'st odds
Among the route of nations, I will make thee
Do thy right nature.

Earth is a celestial being. And unless Shakespeare repents of this quote, he will not inherit it.

You, sirs, need to wake up: GOLD WILL NOT HELP YOU! The devil himself is not afraid of a return to the gold standard!

Your understanding of monetary systems is severely warped, to the point that you are incapable or unwilling to understand simple and sound reasoning. No better monetary system has been conceived by man to date, that would protect the purchasing power of the laborer better, and prevent the government from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation more than 100% commodity based monetary system!

Yes you read a few books. But the type of reasoning found in them is severely flawed as was demonstrated by the few quotes you used from them in other threads. And the fact that you are completely incapable of giving rational, logical reasons to support your position without sending everyone to read several books is a testimony to the fact that you yourself do not understand your position fully, and go on blind faith in the words of blind and conniving men.

There is no great mystery to honest money! (The banksters would like you believe it's all a mystery, but it is a lie.) Honest money is just another commodity used as a medium of exchange, who's purchasing power is determined by its intrinsic value! That's all!

We spoke about this before, and you are yet to produce any rational and logical reasoning to prove your point.

Please know, that our debate in no way is causing me to respect you less as a brother. My best wishes. Let reason rule!

A college effort, and you certainly have zeal, and you like videos, but little else! Myself, I'll take Shakespeare over you! Now go back and debunk the tirade by Shakespeare, line by line as it stands, or stand corrected!

And how can Shakespeare, who lived before the restoration, be responsible for what you think is a "sin"? And on top of that, has not your interpretation of Shakespeare's use of the word "earth" has missed the mark entirely? Was Shakespeare referring to the planet, or the hole in which Timon was digging? And sir, have you read Timon of Athens? Based on your track record, I would say not!

[LoveIsTruth]

Now go back and debunk the tirade by Shakespeare, line by line as it stands, or stand corrected!

It is not gold that makes "black white, foul fair, Wrong right, base noble, old young, coward valiant" or "bless the accursed, Make the hoar leprosy adored, place thieves And give them title, knee and approbation With senators on the bench." It is the wickedness of men that perverts things, not gold. By the same logic you could say human body and the entire creation, and God himself are evil, because they made all this wickedness possible. Not so. Evil is evil because it takes good things and misuses them for evil purposes. And I assure you, that it is infinitely easier to pervert and misuse fiat paper money created out of nothing, than 100% commodity based money! Case in point: Recent "bailouts" a.k.a. thefts. Ask yourself, which is easier, to conjure a trillion in 0's and 1's or in gold bullion? That's how that theft was committed. 100% commodity monetary system makes such shenanigans and robbery PHYSICALLY impossible! What greater check can there be? None!

That's why the Founders have been so inspired to bind the government they created with the chains or 100% commodity based monetary system to restrain the government from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Simple and sublime! 100% commodity based, honest monetary system!

[ithink]

Now go back and debunk the tirade by Shakespeare, line by line as it stands, or stand corrected!

It is not gold that makes "black white, foul fair, Wrong right, base noble, old young, coward valiant" or "bless the accursed, Make the hoar leprosy adored, place thieves And give them title, knee and approbation With senators on the bench." It is the wickedness of men that perverts things, not gold. By the same logic you could say human body and the entire creation, and God himself are evil, because they made all this wickedness possible. Not so. Evil is evil because it takes good things and misuses them for evil purposes. And I assure you, that it is infinitely easier to pervert and misuse fiat paper money created out of nothing, than 100% commodity based money! Case in point: Recent "bailouts" a.k.a. thefts. Ask yourself, which is easer, to conjure a trillion in 0's and 1's or in gold bullion? That's how that theft was committed. 100% commodity monetary system makes such shenanigans and robbery PHYSICALLY impossible! What greater check can there be? None!

That's why the Founders have been so inspired to bind the government they created with the chains or 100% commodity based monetary system to restrain the government from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Simple and sublime! 100% commodity based, honest monetary system!

Do you not contradict yourself?

"It is the wickedness of men that perverts things, not gold." ... vs. ... "What greater check can there be? None!" Is the silver bullet gold as you say -- or not?

And you say "It is not gold that makes "black white, foul fair, Wrong..." -- but it is! And if not -- then what? And if it is not gold but "the wickedness of men that perverts things" then you destroy your argument against paper money being easy to subvert (which you have not proven either)! So which is it? Or would you have it both ways?

Nor have you yet shown how paper money could withstand the pressure of a compound interest system, as you have not debunked Shakespeare either, because it is gold that puts senators on the bench, and it is gold that knits and breaks religions! And if you believe this not, then you believe not Satan himself declaring that with the medium of exchange of this world he will rule with blood and horror -- and if you believe not that, then you believe not your own eyes! And if you believe the current absence of real gold is the problem, then you must also believe that Satan himself must have no power since he explicitly stated he will use gold for his purposes.

Finally, go do your research and tell me where the stock market came from. Show us that Christ instituted gold as the medium of exchange in Northern Europe, and stand corrected, or forever lie.

And for the record love is not truth -- light is.

[LoveIsTruth]

"It is the wickedness of men that perverts things, not gold." ... vs. ... "What greater check can there be? None!" Is the silver bullet gold as you say -- or not?

When I said "What greater check can there be? None!" I did not mean that gold or any other commodity is completely counterfeit proof. All I was saying that it is INFINITELY easier to counterfeit in 0's and 1's than in gold bullion! You must agree with that!

And if it is not gold but "the wickedness of men that perverts things" then you destroy your argument against paper money being easy to subvert (which you have not proven either)!

I thought I just proved to you that it is INFINITELY easier to conjure a trillion "dollars" in 0's and 1's with a few key strokes on a Fed's computer, than to produce that trillion in gold bullion! Common man! You have to agree with that!

Nor have you yet shown how paper money could withstand the pressure of a compound interest system,

Do you mean how 100% commodity money can withstand the pressure of a compound interest system?
If so, then you are exactly right, because it cannot! And that's its virtue, because 100% commodity money insures that those who ought to go bankrupt go bankrupt, instead of being bailed out at everybody's expense!

as you have not debunked Shakespeare either, because it is gold that puts senators on the bench, and it is gold that knits and breaks religions!

By the same logic you can say that air or water put senators on the benches. Think about it, without air they would die! So the problem is not air, or water, or gold, but the use of them for evil purposes.

And if you believe this not, then you believe not Satan himself declaring that with the medium of exchange of this world he will rule with blood and horror

My friend, do you think the fact that all countries in the world now run on fiat paper produced less blood and horror? No! None of the world wars would have been even possible without paper money! Because it was impossible to tax people enough to pay for those wars, without the insidious robbery and confiscation of property through inflation!
Fiat paper money enables bloodshed and horror much more readily than gold! Did you realize, that through inflation it is possible for governments to confiscate over 90% of peoples property over their lifetime? Case in point: US dollar now buys 3 cents worth of what it bought in 1913 when the Fed (the counterfeiter) was created.

And if you believe the current absence of real gold is the problem, then you must also believe that Satan himself must have no power since he explicitly stated he will use gold for his purposes.

Satan uses anything he can, including human bodies if he can get possession of them. That does not make human body evil! Neither does it make gold evil. But it is the misuse of both that is evil. If gold is so evil why did Jesus say: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich"? ( Rev. 3:18 )

[ithink]

"It is the wickedness of men that perverts things, not gold." ... vs. ... "What greater check can there be? None!" Is the silver bullet gold as you say -- or not?

When I said "What greater check can there be? None!" I did not mean that gold or any other commodity is completely counterfeit proof. All I was saying that it is INFINITELY easier to counterfeit in 0's and 1's than in gold bullion! You must agree with that!

Why infinitely? Are you exaggerating? And if so, by how much?

And if it is not gold but "the wickedness of men that perverts things" then you destroy your argument against paper money being easy to subvert (which you have not proven either)!

I thought I just proved to you that it is INFINITELY easier to conjure a trillion "dollars" in 0's and 1's with a few key strokes on a Fed's computer, than to produce that trillion in gold bullion! Common man! You have to agree with that!

No, I do not. And if you think you proved that, I missed it.

Nor have you yet shown how paper money could withstand the pressure of a compound interest system,

Do you mean how 100% commodity money can withstand the pressure of a compound interest system?
If so, then you are exactly right, because it cannot! And that's its virtue, because 100% commodity money insures that those who ought to go bankrupt go bankrupt, instead of being bailed out at everybody's expense!

Yes, that is what it meant, but tt doesn't matter: neither can withstand a compound interest system. Both will die a sudden death, but gold will die first because you can print money easier than you can mine gold, so the charade will be hidden longer with paper than with gold, but the point here is that both will die.

as you have not debunked Shakespeare either, because it is gold that puts senators on the bench, and it is gold that knits and breaks religions!

By the same logic you can say that air or water put senators on the benches. Think about it, without air they would die! So the problem is not air, or water, or gold, but the use of them for evil purposes.

Except that Shakespeare said nothing about air or water did he?

And if you believe this not, then you believe not Satan himself declaring that with the medium of exchange of this world he will rule with blood and horror

My friend, do you think the fact that all countries in the world now run on fiat paper produced less blood and horror?

Do they all run on fiat? Are you sure? Do they all bear compound interest? Are you sure? Do they all issue loans? Are you sure? Are you American? Can you see further than the borders of your own country?

No! None of the world wars would have been even possible without paper money! Because it was impossible to tax people enough to pay for those wars, without the insidious robbery and confiscation of property through inflation!

Sir, you are in need of one serious history lesson. You are totally deluded.

Fiat paper money enables bloodshed and horror much more readily than gold!

Really? "Much more"? How much more?

Did you realize, that through inflation it is possible for governments to confiscate over 90% of peoples property over their lifetime? Case in point: US dollar now buys 3 cents worth of what it bought in 1913 when the Fed (the counterfeiter) was created.

Where did this come from? Why are we now talking about inflation? Hey Mr! What causes inflation of the sort you are talking about? And the answer is NOT fiat money!

And if you believe the current absence of real gold is the problem, then you must also believe that Satan himself must have no power since he explicitly stated he will use gold for his purposes.

Satan uses anything he can, including human bodies if he can get possession of them.

He may, but normally he does not do that as long as his primary mode of action is still working -- that is the control and use of the worlds wealth through gold. And as long as people such as yourself think that not to be a problem, then he won't have to possess one more body to accomplish his purposes -- will he?

That does not make human body evil! Neither does it make gold evil. But it is the misuse of both that is evil. If gold is so evil why did Jesus say: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich"? ( Rev. 3:18 )

Wow, that is as far out of context as you can get. Christ used gold as a metaphor not to justify gold, but because men understand it because that is what their hearts are set upon -- gold of this world. The end point is to get rich it is true, but not yet. But that is another topic.

For the record, you still haven't begun to debunk Shakespeare, not one iota. And your logic is nonsense to me. Shut off youtube for a bit. Go read the entire play Timon of Athens. You can get it online. Maybe something will click for you.

[LoveIsTruth]

No, I do not. And if you think you proved that, I missed it.

Answer me, which is easier to press a few keys on a Fed's computer to produce a trillion "dollars" or to mine and mint one trillion dollars in thousands of tons of 99.9 % pure gold?

Physically speaking one is almost infinitely easier than the other. And it is a PHYSICAL restriction on conjuring money out of nothing that we need to bind the government down with chains of the Constitution to prevent them from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. I prefer to make it PHYSICALLY impossible for them to "legally counterfeit" than to hope that they will play nice and never use the counterfeiting machine they will otherwise be sitting on!

Except that Shakespeare said nothing about air or water did he?

Precisely, because that would prove his point wrong. But I mention air and water to show the error in his logic. What error? He is blaming a natural resource for his plight! That's just stupid! He can just as well blame air or water! They are also natural resources that enable senators to sit on their benches much more so than gold! Without air those senators would simply die! So air is a much greater enabler for them than gold! That is the flaw in Shakespeare's logic. The problem is not the natural resources of the earth, but what man does with it. And gold and silver as money are much more just and honest than worthless pieces of paper conjured out of nothing by government fiat that enables government to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation!

Do they all run on fiat? Are you sure?

Practically all countries in the world use fiat (unbacked) currency now. That is the root of current economic crisis, as well as the root of the unbridled power that the governments world over seek to exercise over their people. Of course! They got the counterfeiting machine!

None of the world wars would have been even possible without paper money! Because it was impossible to tax people enough to pay for those wars, without the insidious robbery and confiscation of property through inflation!

Sir, you are in need of one serious history lesson. You are totally deluded.

All paper currencies of the countries involved in world wars depreciated drastically,— testament to the purchasing power stolen by their governments from the people through inflation. And it was huge! Much more than could've been directly taxed without people rebelling! This drastic depreciation of paper currencies is public domain information, look it up.

Fiat paper money enables bloodshed and horror much more readily than gold!

Really? "Much more"? How much more?

I just told you! None of the world wars would've been even possible without paper money. Because the respective governments could not have directly taxed their people to finance these wars without people rebelling against them. So they confiscated people's property much more slyly,—through inflation of currencies,—that's how they stole all the funding they needed, without people noticing the theft! This would've been PHYSICALLY impossible with 100% commodity based monetary system. That's why fiat paper is the great enabler of war! (It makes theft by government so much the easier)!

Did you realize, that through inflation it is possible for governments to confiscate over 90% of peoples property over their lifetime? Case in point: US dollar now buys 3 cents worth of what it bought in 1913 when the Fed (the counterfeiter) was created.

Where did this come from?

Public domain information.

Why are we not talking about inflation? Hey Mr! What causes inflation of the sort you are talking about? And the answer is NOT fiat money!

Fiat (conjuring "money" out of nothing) is what made this possible!

his primary mode of action is still working -- that is the control and use of the worlds wealth through gold.

He can exercise much more control through paper. That's why we have paper ruling the world now! If banksters thought that gold currency gave them more control we would not have fiat paper the world over now! Gold, or any other 100% commodity monetary system puts iron fetters on their ability to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That's why they hate 100% commodity monetary system so much, because it is an honest system!

And as long as people such as yourself think that to not be a problem, then he won't have to possess one more body to accomplish his purposes -- will he?

Satan is quite powerless on his own. The only power he can exercise is in proportion to how much people will choose to obey him.

Wow, that is as far out of context as you can get. Christ used gold as a metaphor not to justify gold, but because men understand it because that is what their hearts are set upon -- gold of this world.

Do you think that scripture will better sound thus: "buy from me fiat paper tried in the fire"?

For the record, you still haven't begun to debunk Shakespeare, not one iota.

I am sure Shakespeare would disagree with you now. He was a reasonable man. (Just kidding )

And your logic is nonsense to me.

If you think so, show the inconsistencies and errors in my reasoning. I proved to you quite rigorously that 100% commodity based monetary system is the most just and honest one, and a great protector of property rights and of liberty of the people, because it makes nigh impossible for the government to rob the people and confiscate their property through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Disprove that. Prove that conjuring thousands of tons of gold out of nothing is easier than pressing a few keys on a Fed's computer!

Best wishes, as always .

[LoveIsTruth]

And for the record love is not truth -- light is.

God is love.
(See 1 John 4:16)

And God is truth. Therefore love is truth.

I rest my case

[buffalo_girl]

From Black Elk Speaks, Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, 1932.

Afterward I learned that it was Pahuska* who had led his soldiers into the Black Hills that summer (1874) to see what he could find. He had no right to go in there, because all that country was ours. Also the Wasichus had made a treaty with Red Cloud (1868) that said it would be ours as long as grass should grow and water flow. Later I learned too that Pahuska had found there much of the yellow metal that makes the Wasichus crazy; and that is what made the bad trouble, just as it did before, when the hundred were rubbed out.

...I asked my father what they were talking about in there, and he told me that the Grandfather at Washington wanted to lease the Black Hills so that the Wasichus could dig yellow metal, and that the chief of the soldiers had said if we did not do this, the Black Hills would be just like melting snow held in our hands, because the Wasichus would take that country anyway.

It made me sad to hear this. It was such a good place to play and the people were always happy in that country. Also I thought of my vision, and how the spirits took me there to the center of the world.

Our people knew there was yellow metal in little chuncks up there; but they did not bother with it, because it was not good for anything.

* Long Hair, General Custer

[LoveIsTruth]

From Black Elk Speaks, Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, 1932.

The devastated and primitive state of their society is the testament to their ignorance and devolved condition. So they are hardly the authority on virtues of gold as money. And I assure you, whatever they did use as money was 100% commodity and not worthless pieces of paper.

[Jason]

Recognizing the need for a temporary circulating medium superior to packets of gold dust, Brigham Young and his associates made plans to issue paper currency until coins could once more be minted. The first issue consisted of small bills, two inches wide and four inches long, hand-printed by pen and ink on plain white paper (there was not yet a printing press in the region). Bills were made for 50 cents, $1.00, $2.00, $3.00, and $5.00, and were signed by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball (Brigham Young's counselor), and Newel K. Whitney, presiding bishop of the church. The bills were stamped with the seal of the Twelve Apostles, which consisted of the emblem of the priesthood encircled by sixteen letters: P.S.T.A. P.C.J.C.L.D.S. L.D.A.O.W., which was an abbreviation for "Private Seal of the Twelve Apostles, Priests of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in the Last Dispensation All Over the World." All of the 830 notes in the initial issue, with a face value of $1,365.00, bore the date January 2, 1849." A second issue of 735 separate bills with a face value of $1,217.50 was issued bearing the date of January 5, 1849. The church also had a supply of engraved Kirtland, Ohio, bank notes which bore the signatures of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, and decided to reissue these with the additional signatures of Young, Kimball, and Whitney. Thomas Bullock, clerk of Brigham Young, also put a private mark on the bills to authenticate those issued against gold dust. Some 135 of these bills in $1.00 and $3.00 denominations were placed in circulation on 10 January 1849, and 256, mostly of the $5.00 denomination, were in circulation before fall, bearing a face value of $1,33l.00. Later in January 1849, Truman Angell, church architect, made a press that could print paper currency. On 20 January 1849 a total of $3,329 bills in 50 cents, $1.00, $2.00, and $3.00 denominations were issued; these carried a face value of $5,529.50, and were modeled after the handwritten bills issued on 2 January. Feramorz Y. Fox, who studied the records of these issues, which are in the LDS Church Archives in Salt Lake City, found that these issues of currency were secured by an 80 percent reserve of gold. Most of the gold, in California-minted coins or dust, was paid in to the church as tithing. These gold-backed church treasury notes, or perhaps more accurately, warehouse receipts for gold dust, appear to have been a generally acceptable means of exchange in the Salt Lake Valley. When the church mint resumed coinage in the fall of 1849, the paper currency was redeemed, and most of it was destroyed. Of the original 5,150 notes, only 184 notes, valued at $269.00, were outstanding in May 1850.

http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/c/COINS.html
Bold and Underline mine

“Were I to ask the question, how much wheat or anything else a man must have to justify him in letting it go to waste, it would be hard to answer; figures are inadequate to give the amount. Never let anything go to waste. Be prudent, save everything, and what you get more than you can take care of yourselves, ask your neighbors to help you. There are scores and hundreds of men in this house, if the question were asked them if they considered their grain a burden and a drudge to them, when they had plenty last year and the year before, that would answer in the affirmative, and were ready to part with it for next to nothing. How do they feel now, when their granaries are empty? If they had a few thousand bushels to spare now, would they not consider it a blessing? They would. Why? Because it would bring the gold and silver. But pause for a moment, and suppose you had millions of bushels to sell, and could sell it for twenty dollars per bushel, or for a million dollars per bushel, no matter what amount, so that you sell all your wheat, and transport it out of the country, and you are left with nothing more than a pile of gold, what good would it do you? You could not eat it, drink it, wear it, or carry it off where you could have something to eat. The time will come that gold will hold no comparison in value to a bushel of wheat. Gold is not to be compared with it in value. Why would it be precious to you now? Simply because you could get gold for it? Gold is good for nothing, only as men value it. It is no better than a piece of iron, a piece of limestone, or a piece of sandstone, and it is not half so good as the soil from which we raise our wheat, and other necessaries of life. The children of men love it, they lust after it, are greedy for it, and are ready to destroy themselves, and those around them, over whom they have any influence, to gain it”

Journal of Discourses, 1:, p.250
Bold and Underline mine

[LoveIsTruth]

Thomas Bullock, clerk of Brigham Young, also put a private mark on the bills to authenticate those issued against gold dust. ...
These gold-backed church treasury notes, or perhaps more accurately, warehouse receipts for gold dust, appear to have been a generally acceptable means of exchange in the Salt Lake Valley. When the church mint resumed coinage in the fall of 1849, the paper currency was redeemed, and most of it was destroyed.

You just made my case for me. The currency was gold backed, and was fully redeemed in gold! (except for a few that didn't, who got robbed or dispossessed).

You could not eat it, drink it, wear it, or carry it off where you could have something to eat. The time will come that gold will hold no comparison in value to a bushel of wheat. Gold is not to be compared with it in value. Why would it be precious to you now? Simply because you could get gold for it? Gold is good for nothing, only as men value it. It is no better than a piece of iron, a piece of limestone, or a piece of sandstone, and it is not half so good as the soil from which we raise our wheat, and other necessaries of life. The children of men love it, they lust after it, are greedy for it, and are ready to destroy themselves, and those around them, over whom they have any influence, to gain it

Any developed economy must have money, a medium of exchange. You could use grain, potatoes, or any other commodity for that purpose. (None of which by the way is conjured out of nothing).

All I am saying, is that historically gold has been one of the most convenient mediums. You are welcome to use any other, as long as you are not conjuring purchasing power out of nothing.

Grain is money, gold is money, aluminum is money. Any other commodity is money. Some commodities are more important, at certain times, than others . And some make more convenient medium of exchange than others.

So as long as your medium of exchange is 100% commodity based, and CANNOT be conjured out of nothing, and its purchasing power is determined by its intrinsic value, I am fine with it. It's an honest monetary system because you do not get something for nothing.

[Jason]

Thomas Bullock, clerk of Brigham Young, also put a private mark on the bills to authenticate those issued against gold dust. ...
These gold-backed church treasury notes, or perhaps more accurately, warehouse receipts for gold dust, appear to have been a generally acceptable means of exchange in the Salt Lake Valley. When the church mint resumed coinage in the fall of 1849, the paper currency was redeemed, and most of it was destroyed.

You just made my case for me. The currency was gold backed, and was full redeemed in gold! (except for a few that didn't who got robbed or dispossessed).

You could not eat it, drink it, wear it, or carry it off where you could have something to eat. The time will come that gold will hold no comparison in value to a bushel of wheat. Gold is not to be compared with it in value. Why would it be precious to you now? Simply because you could get gold for it? Gold is good for nothing, only as men value it. It is no better than a piece of iron, a piece of limestone, or a piece of sandstone, and it is not half so good as the soil from which we raise our wheat, and other necessaries of life. The children of men love it, they lust after it, are greedy for it, and are ready to destroy themselves, and those around them, over whom they have any influence, to gain it

Any developed economy must have money, a medium of exchange. You could use grain, potatoes, or any other commodity for that purpose. (None of which by the way is conjured out of nothing).

All I am saying, is that historically gold has been one of the most convenient mediums. You are welcome to use any other, as long as you are not conjuring purchasing power out of nothing.

Grain is money, gold is money, aluminum is money. Any other commodity is money. Some commodities are more important than others. And some make more convenient medium of exchange than others.

So as long as your medium of exchange is 100% commodity based, and CANNOT be conjured out of nothing, and its purchasing power is determined by its intrinsic value, I am fine with it. It's an honest monetary system because you do not get something for nothing.

LOL Agree to disagree. See the 2nd quote for more insight on the actions taken in the 1st quote. Money isn't money until its coined....or created by government....or by the people as a whole as money.....otherwise its just commodities and you're really just bartering!

[buffalo_girl]

The devastated and primitive state of their society is the testament to their ignorance and devolved condition. So they are hardly the authority on virtues of gold as money. And I assure you, whatever they did use as money was 100% commodity and not worthless pieces of paper.

Hmm...bravely spoken!

3 Nephi 15
13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

3 Nephi 16
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.

3 Nephi 21
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be ccut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.
26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people.

Perhaps as Gentiles, we are those who are 'ignorant and devolved'.

If God the Father Commanded His Son, the Resurrected Christ to 'give unto this people this land for their inheritance', I have to believe there is some virtue in 'the remnant of this people' who have been divinely bequeathed the Land Patent to the ground I stand on.

The Lakota used horses & buffalo skins as mediums of exchange. Horses get you where you need to go & reproduce. Buffalo skins save your sorry life when it's -40 with a brisk north wind and snow squeaks when you walk on it. Skins were an 'excess' you could trade. You enjoyed the 'virtue' of the meat yourself, and still had wealth in your hand to work for you.

The Mandan & Hidatsa used corn, beans, squash, & flint from the Knife River area as mediums of exchange. They traded with tribes who made their journey from as far away as the Gulf of Mexico & what is now Arizona & New Mexico for the flint. We know that food commodities are useful. You can't eat flint, but you sure can make useful tools out of it.

I asked an LDS (full-blood) Lakota friend of mine how she bore the derision of whites toward her culture and her people. Her reply:

"Oh, you know, Donna, they are all foreigners; they don't know how to act."

"Our people knew there was yellow metal in little chunks up there; but they did not bother with it, because it was not good for anything."

[LoveIsTruth]

Exactly! They were using COMMODITIES as medium of exchange! That's the whole point!
Commodity money is honest money. Whether gold or grain it's a commodity. That's all I am advocating. In some cultures grain works better, in others gold. Historically, for most highly developed countries, the honest medium of exchanged that worked best was precious metals like gold and silver.

[LoveIsTruth]

Money isn't money until its coined....or created by government....or by the people as a whole as money.....otherwise its just commodities and you're really just bartering!

That's what honest money is, a commodity! And yes you are bartering with it! What's the crime in that?

[ithink]

No, I do not. And if you think you proved that, I missed it.

Answer me, which is easier to press a few keys on a Fed's computer to produce a trillion "dollars" or to mine and mint one trillion dollars in thousands of tons of 99.9 % pure gold? I already answered that, but your continued use of this is sinking your own boat. By your own admission, you confess that it is harder to mine gold than print money. That is true. But you refuse to allow your mind to complete the thought that under a compound interest system, a gold system will implode sooner than a paper system, perhaps even not even function at all if brought in at a late phase such as right now. You also have refused to acknowledge that it was the gold standard itself that was responsible in part for the length and breadth of the depression of the dirty 30's, and that it was the international bankers themselves who refused to get off the gold standard. Your only response so far is to castigate me for my research and replace it with nothing but your own hot air and another clip from youtube. Now would you please use savvy to comment intelligently on what compound interest will do to your gold standard, or any money system for that matter.

Physically speaking one is almost infinitely easier than the other. And it is a PHYSICAL restriction on conjuring money out of nothing that we need to bind the government down with chains of the Constitution to prevent them from robbing the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. I prefer to make it PHYSICALLY impossible for them to "legally counterfeit" than to hope that they will play nice and never use the counterfeiting machine they will otherwise be sitting on!

Except that Shakespeare said nothing about air or water did he?

Precisely, because that would prove his point wrong. Would it? Prove it by showing me anywhere, at any time, where a senator has been placed on the bench by air or water. But I mention air and water to show the error in his logic. With all due respect that is the due of an idiot, to you sir, take all that you deserve. What error? He is blaming a natural resource for his plight! That's just stupid! He can just as well blame air or water! They are also natural resources that enable senators to sit on their benches much more so than gold! Without air those senators would simply die! So air is a much greater enabler for them than gold! That is the flaw in Shakespeare's logic. The problem is not the natural resources of the earth, but what man does with it. And gold and silver as money are much more just and honest than worthless pieces of paper conjured out of nothing by government fiat that enables government to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation!

Do they all run on fiat? Are you sure?

Practically all countries in the world use fiat (unbacked) currency now. Practically? Name some that don't. That is the root of current economic crisis NO IT IS NOT! , as well as the root of the unbridled power that the governments world over seek to exercise over their people. Of course! They got the counterfeiting machine! WRONG!

None of the world wars would have been even possible without paper money! Because it was impossible to tax people enough to pay for those wars, without the insidious robbery and confiscation of property through inflation!

Sir, you are in need of one serious history lesson. You are totally deluded.

All paper currencies of the countries involved in world wars depreciated drastically,— testament to the purchasing power stolen by their governments from the people through inflation. Here we are again, back to square one: what causes that inflation??? And it was huge! Much more than could've been directly taxed without people rebelling! This drastic depreciation of paper currencies is public domain information, look it up. You look it up you clown! I have, and I have cited where. The only thing you appear to have looked up is youtube and an apparent google query here and there.

Fiat paper money enables bloodshed and horror much more readily than gold!

Really? "Much more"? How much more?

I just told you! None of the world wars would've been even possible without paper money. Because the respective governments could not have directly taxed their people to finance these wars without people rebelling against them. So they confiscated people's property much more slyly,—through inflation of currencies,—that's how they stall all the funding they needed, without people noticing the theft! But you think the mechanism is the simple act of creating money, but in that you do err very gravely. You have missed the ship. This would've been PHYSICALLY impossible with 100% commodity based monetary system. That's why fiat paper is the great enabler of war! (It makes theft by government so much the easier)! Back to the testimony you bear, but sir, you back it with nothing. Perhaps you could refer me to history to back your claim, but sadly, you cannot. I would refer you to a book written by Carrol Quigley, one of the insiders, who does not agree with you, and who was spilling the beans so you and I could see what is really going on, but interestingly, some folk, like yourself, cannot understand plain english even when it is given to you in a plain a word as can be!

Did you realize, that through inflation it is possible for governments to confiscate over 90% of peoples property over their lifetime? Case in point: US dollar now buys 3 cents worth of what it bought in 1913 when the Fed (the counterfeiter) was created.

But you still refuse to think about what caused the inflation! What really causes that inflation? Why does the government need to print more and more and more money?? They need to match the economic output -- right? But what is really going on mathematically speaking? What is driving the need for the creation of more money? I have told you -- but you refuse to listen!

Where did this come from?

Public domain information.

Why are we not talking about inflation? Hey Mr! What causes inflation of the sort you are talking about? And the answer is NOT fiat money!

Fiat (conjuring "money" out of nothing) is what made this possible! WRONG!

his primary mode of action is still working -- that is the control and use of the worlds wealth through gold.

He can exercise much more control through paper. That's why we have paper ruling the world now! Neat, but my point is he did not promise to use paper -- did he!!! If banksters thought that gold currency gave them more control we would not have fiat paper the world over now! You are an obstinate knave. I have repeatedly told you that the bankers would not let go of the gold standard in the thirties, which prolonged the depression. Can you explain why these evil men refused to give up what you now say will save the planet?? C'mon! Give me the answer or admit you deceive yourself or are deceived by others! Gold, or any other 100% commodity monetary system puts iron fetters on their ability to rob the people through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. That's why they hate 100% commodity monetary system so much, because it is an honest system! NO IT IS NOT AN HONEST SYSTEM! GOLD CAN BE CORRUPTED JUST AS WELL AS ANY OTHER SYSTEM -- YOU SAID SO YOURSELF!!!

And as long as people such as yourself think that to not be a problem, then he won't have to possess one more body to accomplish his purposes -- will he?

Satan is quite powerless on his own OH MY GOSH HE IS NOT!! SATAN IS A GOD OF EVIL! He has plenty of power on his own and can cause you a lot of problems. If I were you, I would recant before you get a demonstration of his power in your own life. . The only power he can exercise is in proportion to how much people will choose to obey him. True, but the law of an eye for an eye applies to him! If strike his cheek by calling him a coward or smite his breast by calling him powerless, you open the door to the law by which he lives, and you will regret you did so!

Wow, that is as far out of context as you can get. Christ used gold as a metaphor not to justify gold, but because men understand it because that is what their hearts are set upon -- gold of this world.

Do you think that scripture will better sound thus: "buy from me fiat paper tried in the fire"? If they had fiat paper, it would. In fact, He did on one other occasion, but the word is not fiat paper, but scrip.

For the record, you still haven't begun to debunk Shakespeare, not one iota.

I am sure Shakespeare would disagree with you now. You are a fool to say that: for to do so Shakespeare would need to contradict himself. He was a reasonable man. (Just kidding )

And your logic is nonsense to me.

If you think so, show the inconsistencies and errors in my reasoning. I have: over and over and over again. I proved to you quite rigorously that 100% commodity based monetary system is the most just and honest one the only rigor you have applied is your rhetoric, which is the thickest I have ever encountered in the last decade. Congratulations. You behave as if you are reading from a script, or receiving money to post this propaganda you call "reason". , and a great protector of property rights and of liberty of the people don't even start with property or liberty, you have no idea what is destroying either even when it is told you in plain english , because it makes nigh impossible for the government to rob the people and confiscate their property through legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Disprove that. I have given you the answers, but you refuse to ask the right questions. Prove that conjuring thousands of tons of gold out of nothing is easier than pressing a few keys on a Fed's computer! You are spinning the topic at hand to minimize the damage when the truth finally comes crashing down on you. The only proof that anyone ever takes is that which the offer themselves. I have invited you to do some research, but instead of accepting it you actually mock me for my reading. You are quite the hothead. The difference between you and I is I am bound by no party, system, or government. I am bound by all the truth I can ever scrape together from whatever source, and in my entire lifetime, I have only ever seen one other person who is as unforgiving and relentless as a I am in the search for truth. And for that you think you can override my research, which has taken more than a decade to absorb and sink in, with a couple of sentences scrawled on a conservative message board. I have not been so pompous: I have asked you to read what I have read because you cannot understand what I understand until you do the work yourself, and if you don't agree to that, then you will kick yourself to hell led by your ignorance and stiff neckedness and brazen brow.

[ithink]

And for the record love is not truth -- light is.

God is love.
(See 1 John 4:16)

And God is truth. Therefore love is truth.

I rest my case

I see the God is love scripture, but where is the "God is truth"? Oh yes, in the next verse: "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. " So we don't get the "Word" until we get what Christ is giving us -- which is the truth, which if we refuse to receive, brings damnation. I'm not questioning your zeal, I'm questioning your knowledge, or what knowledge you think is the truth, when I say it is not. I say you have stopped short, but you refuse to listen.

[ithink]

From Black Elk Speaks, Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, 1932.

Afterward I learned that it was Pahuska* who had led his soldiers into the Black Hills that summer (1874) to see what he could find. He had no right to go in there, because all that country was ours. Also the Wasichus had made a treaty with Red Cloud (1868) that said it would be ours as long as grass should grow and water flow. Later I learned too that Pahuska had found there much of the yellow metal that makes the Wasichus crazy; and that is what made the bad trouble, just as it did before, when the hundred were rubbed out.

...I asked my father what they were talking about in there, and he told me that the Grandfather at Washington wanted to lease the Black Hills so that the Wasichus could dig yellow metal, and that the chief of the soldiers had said if we did not do this, the Black Hills would be just like melting snow held in our hands, because the Wasichus would take that country anyway.

It made me sad to hear this. It was such a good place to play and the people were always happy in that country. Also I thought of my vision, and how the spirits took me there to the center of the world.

Our people knew there was yellow metal in little chuncks up there; but they did not bother with it, because it was not good for anything.

* Long Hair, General Custer

AAAAAA-MEN!

[ithink]

From Black Elk Speaks, Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, 1932.

The devastated and primitive state of their society is the testament to their ignorance and devolved condition. So they are hardly the authority on virtues of gold as money. And I assure you, whatever they did use as money was 100% commodity and not worthless pieces of paper.

You are quite the comedian. Here in one sentence you point us to the testimony of their "devastated and primitive ..... ignorance and devolved condition", and before I need to take a breath, you point out that you are sure their system was driven by "100% commodity"! So which is it? Is it the commodity based economy that caused their troubles (which you measure by the number of washing machines and swimming pools in the neighborhood), or is it not! Must you insist on having it both ways?