What is Money? "Francisco's Money Speech" Dollars

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Reality amazes me.

I think Buffalo Girl is the resident expert on how far self sufficiency can go under our New World Order. Without some change there will not be any answer soon except as you say to be good slaves.

Yes, the fisheries are all corrupt, all the extraction industries are.

http://www.reason.com/topics/topic/139.xml
Fishing for Alaska Bering Sea crab is one of the most dangerous jobs in America. But a good haul can net each crewman $50,000 to $60,000, so wily fishermen are still eager to find ways around regulations that limit crab seasons to prevent overfishing. A more sensible approach is to divvy up the catch with tradable fishing rights, which promote conservation by tying it to the crabbers' self-interest.


In January Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) added such a measure to an appropriations bill. So far, so good. But his plan also compels the crabbers to sell nine-tenths of their catch to processors designated by the government. That's not just an egregious form of corporate welfare; it undermines the whole point of the reform. Forcing fishermen to sell at whatever price the processors set means little or no profit for the crabbers, and therefore little or no asset value in the fishery, and therefore no incentive for conservation.


Why would Stevens include such a measure? Here's one possible incentive: Ben Stevens -- Ted's son and an Alaska state senator -- was paid over $80,000 during the last two years as a consultant for the processors' trade association. Undeterred, Stevens Sr. tells The Washington Post: "This state's so small, there's hardly anything my son could do that wouldn't be affected by what I do....I didn't do this for Ben. I did this for the crab in-dustry."

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shadow
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Post by shadow »

Don't get caught up in yourself Pitch. Most all agree that todays socialistic society isn't good. Pitch even admits to getting out of it. Here I give a close example of what Pitch calls a straw man and like usual, BAM!! I'm the bad guy that hates to help others and rapists don't know raping is bad. Well you're absolutely wrong. It's interesting, I put the words of President Kimball on the screen for all to see but somehow I misunderstand them. Please translate his words please.

I have been suggesting that the governments form of welfare is no welfare at all. The government grinds the faces of the poor and unfortunatly you support it. It hurts people. President Kimball says so too. Individual welfare is right. Charity suffereth long and is not puffed up. It helps, encourages, lifts up, strengthens, and lightens the load. Government welfare puts down and encourages laziness. In fact, it's so easy to take without accountability that it stunts others from giving true help. To argue with that is futile- pointless. Government welfare seldom helps the ones looking for help. When you go to bed tonight repeat this in your mind. Government welfare - bad. Personal charity - good.

Riddle me this Mr. Pitch. Where have I "condemned those in need"? You've accused me of that more than once on different threads. I don't like the government system of welfare. That's ALL!! Don't accuse me falsely like you've done, it makes you a liar. And I have no hard feelings for my family either. I was just merely giving you an example of your incorrect straw man theory. I have not discussed with them their being on welfare, not once. I have made no remarks to them about their lifestyle. I have offered help to them. Period. But sometimes Pitch, people want the easy route. That idea is hard for you to grasp as you have admittedly excused yourself from society and decided to hide your talent, but that's your choice. Just don't preach your holier than thou rhetoric trying to support a satanic welfare system, it's pathetic and discusting.

Ignorance is bliss, eh Pitch! Enjoy.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

My bishop told me that long term assistance is ok if they can see that it will really help you get out of your situation.

Our debt is medical debt. Besides that there is the house, the car, and education.

If we did not have the medical debt, we could actually get out of debt without help. The medical debt is so excessive, that it literally takes our money for food.

We are selling our land, our house, and possibly our car.

We will get into a more affordable house. A car without a balance, and then see if we can settle with this Medical debt.

We have not used credit cards for over 5 years.

My husband works between 45-80 hours a week, and also has seasonal layoffs.

How to you teach a man to fish?

Sometimes, the man is fishing, but it is not enough to feed the sharks too.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

shadow wrote:Don't get caught up in yourself Pitch. Most all agree that todays socialistic society isn't good. Pitch even admits to getting out of it. Here I give a close example of what Pitch calls a straw man and like usual, BAM!! I'm the bad guy that hates to help others and rapists don't know raping is bad. Well you're absolutely wrong. It's interesting, I put the words of President Kimball on the screen for all to see but somehow I misunderstand them. Please translate his words please.

I have been suggesting that the governments form of welfare is no welfare at all. The government grinds the faces of the poor and unfortunatly you support it. It hurts people. President Kimball says so too. Individual welfare is right. Charity suffereth long and is not puffed up. It helps, encourages, lifts up, strengthens, and lightens the load. Government welfare puts down and encourages laziness. In fact, it's so easy to take without accountability that it stunts others from giving true help. To argue with that is futile- pointless. Government welfare seldom helps the ones looking for help. When you go to bed tonight repeat this in your mind. Government welfare - bad. Personal charity - good.

Riddle me this Mr. Pitch. Where have I "condemned those in need"? You've accused me of that more than once on different threads. I don't like the government system of welfare. That's ALL!! Don't accuse me falsely like you've done, it makes you a liar. And I have no hard feelings for my family either. I was just merely giving you an example of your incorrect straw man theory. I have not discussed with them their being on welfare, not once. I have made no remarks to them about their lifestyle. I have offered help to them. Period. But sometimes Pitch, people want the easy route. That idea is hard for you to grasp as you have admittedly excused yourself from society and decided to hide your talent, but that's your choice. Just don't preach your holier than thou rhetoric trying to support a satanic welfare system, it's pathetic and discusting.

Ignorance is bliss, eh Pitch! Enjoy.
Maybe you could talk to your sister about these things, in a very gentle way, so that you can help her see how she can truly help her family. But if she will not turn to her bishop, then I guess she is out of more positive options, unless you are in a position to teach and financially help until they can get a higher education, or find other streams of income or something.

I wish that someone explained things to me sooner... I could have made some very different choices.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Don't turn this into something that it shouldn't be Shadow. It serves no purpose.

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shadow
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Post by shadow »

Right Pitch. Take the free jab, then when one stands up to it pretend you didn't ask for it. Nice.

Great post Charity-
The real concern I have for my sister and her family is that they've gone inactive. They no longer wear the clothing that reminds them of covenents made. It saddens me greatly. I see their life crumbling, but they do not. Their 3 young kids are literally taught to do as they please. No house rules. I call them weekly and visit them at their house (about an hour away) at least 1 - 2 times /month. I've never been one to "preach" to others, I try to set a good example. But people have agency.

My reason for bringing them up in the first place was to show that there are people who take advantage of the "system". No straw man here. Some people like the system so much, they count their welfare as regular income and go get more debt based upon that. I know all people aren't like that, but many are.

I know you and your husband will figure things out. Where there's a will, there's a way. It sounds like you're doing it now. I don't claim to know the answers. I barely made it through high school (too much sluffing) and I'm a college drop-out too. I can't stand the structured life of a 9-5 job, so I'm self employed and work a 9-7 job! I just found something I liked and went for it. I stuck my neck way out there a few times, but my wife is still with me. She just smiles at my ideas. We're living the life we created.

One thing I have strong feelings about is the welfare system. My grandpa worked 2-3 jobs at a time. He was a bus driver, mechanic, did outo body work, and was a roofer. He slowly acquired fixer-upper homes and rented them out. He sacrificed much to provide for his family. He took pride in it. Welfare was never an option for him. He would just as soon die than not provide while being able to. I take after him I guess. Don't mistake me for saying that people don't need help. But my whole point that has been twisted by another is that there is a right way and a wrong way. There's always going to be the poor umong us. I've been the the poor umong us. But government handouts are not based on principle. It typically doesn't help the giver or the receiver. It's not used that way. It's to keep people down, relying on politicians to assist. The politicians rely on the broken "promises of free prosperity to all" they make to get a vote. It's a sad circle that deprives people of the blessings from Heaven.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

But government handouts are not based on principle. It typically doesn't help the giver or the receiver. It's not used that way. It's to keep people down, relying on politicians to assist. The politicians rely on the broken "promises of free prosperity to all" they make to get a vote. It's a sad circle that deprives people of the blessings from Heaven.
This is essentially what I was saying. That the welfare program helps you feel comfortable and better then you can survive without it. If you try to get out of it, then you have a really hard struggle because you cannot provide what they were giving you. You have to completely change your life.

My husband has worked 2 jobs since before our twins were born, we still qualified for assistance. Now he has one job that pays relatively well, in fact most would say very well and it has overtime. However, most people here only have one child, maybe two. We have four. We also do not use debt to survive, so we look more poor then people think we should.

Our home is a modest home. It was $84,000 when we bought it. Our land was $7,000 when we bought it. Our car was our big mistake, after not having a car payment for almost 4 years + it was the stupid thing to do. So we owe $19,000 on that. Now the medical debt... That is $25,000. Even tho we were paying every month for the last 5 years, they gave us no leeway when my husband was laid off last year. And as soon as we were 40 days late, they refused payment (even though he had 2 months payments) they decided to garnish wages instead. We fought it down from 25% to 10% because he is the only wage earner, but this 10% still comes out after taxes, union dues, insurance etc... We live off of $200 a month for groceries. This was a huge change from the $750 a month the government gave us. I only mention all these numbers because one, I want people to see the whole picture I am talking about, and two maybe someone will avoid the same pitfalls.

We have recently been blessed in other ways, my husband a little more over time, the possibility that new installed equipment will make certain that there are no layoffs. And then I have been asked to be part of the executive committee of a new Non-profit organization. They are a start-up so I will not even know what they can pay me for 12 weeks. I will not do any work until then, but basically I am the treasurer and I file the quarterly stuff and the end of the fiscal year stuff. (Which they will train me to do). I hope it pays well enough that we can actually pay off the car or at least have enough money to be able to pay it down so we can sell it, and buy a car for cash again.

I think that you want to help your sister and that you truly love her. I think that it is important to show her ways that she can do better. Not dump it all on her at once, but maybe sit down and help her see the bigger picture.

Or maybe start with why she is inactive, what happened... and work on that, because the Holy Ghost can do a lot once it is invited to be there....

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WYp8riot
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hmmm.

Post by WYp8riot »

shadow wrote:Right Pitch. Take the free jab, then when one stands up to it pretend you didn't ask for it. Nice.

Great post Charity-
The real concern I have for my sister and her family is that they've gone inactive. They no longer wear the clothing that reminds them of covenents made. It saddens me greatly. I see their life crumbling, but they do not. Their 3 young kids are literally taught to do as they please. No house rules. I call them weekly and visit them at their house (about an hour away) at least 1 - 2 times /month. I've never been one to "preach" to others, I try to set a good example. But people have agency.

My reason for bringing them up in the first place was to show that there are people who take advantage of the "system". No straw man here. Some people like the system so much, they count their welfare as regular income and go get more debt based upon that. I know all people aren't like that, but many are.

I know you and your husband will figure things out. Where there's a will, there's a way. It sounds like you're doing it now. I don't claim to know the answers. I barely made it through high school (too much sluffing) and I'm a college drop-out too. I can't stand the structured life of a 9-5 job, so I'm self employed and work a 9-7 job! I just found something I liked and went for it. I stuck my neck way out there a few times, but my wife is still with me. She just smiles at my ideas. We're living the life we created.

One thing I have strong feelings about is the welfare system. My grandpa worked 2-3 jobs at a time. He was a bus driver, mechanic, did outo body work, and was a roofer. He slowly acquired fixer-upper homes and rented them out. He sacrificed much to provide for his family. He took pride in it. Welfare was never an option for him. He would just as soon die than not provide while being able to. I take after him I guess. Don't mistake me for saying that people don't need help. But my whole point that has been twisted by another is that there is a right way and a wrong way. There's always going to be the poor umong us. I've been the the poor umong us. But government handouts are not based on principle. It typically doesn't help the giver or the receiver. It's not used that way. It's to keep people down, relying on politicians to assist. The politicians rely on the broken "promises of free prosperity to all" they make to get a vote. It's a sad circle that deprives people of the blessings from Heaven.
You make some good valid points. I think we all respect people who go to those lengths to financially provide, but I believe that is causing failure in another area that may be argued eually or more valuable providing. As stated before when a father works excessive hours he is failing to provide in other areas. People usually complain abouth the failure to provide financially because it impositions people in the ward who could care less of such when it requires them to lower their pride and assist. I think of Connor Boyack (http://www.awakeandarise.org) who just return from Africa and is having difficulty adjusting. Our lifestyle compared to theirs, yet we have that same micro economic situation within our own wards where some are financially well off and others are struggling. Personally I think the scriptures state quite clearly that we do not judge or refuse aid due to what ever sel inflicted causes there may be. Obviously none of us our perfect and I hope If I ever become financially free that I would ever spend my free time serving rather than seeking recreation addiction and hobbies and seeking the "finer" things in life.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

I'm not dodging anything that's coming to me, believe me. Just trying to keep this from turning into more of what it has. I believe that our words speak for themselves.

I do not advocate government welfare, you seem to miss that point over and over again. I advocate what Marvelous Truth has, what the scriptures do.

I have then said that failing that we as a society have just as much right to punish offenders of those crimes as any other crimes.

We as a society failed the poor. That is very evident in any cursory study of the industrial age. Read Jack London's "Why I Became A Socialist." I believe that is the true danger of socialism. We offended greatly and it spawned mass unionization and socialism in the United States (resentment). Had we done it the right way, it wouldn't have happened, but we reaped the natural consequence of our actions.

Men no longer trusted us as employers, they now realized that they needed thugs on their side (like we used thugs on ours to strong arm during their strikes). They now realized that anything they needed wasn't just going to be handed to them for doing their best (whatever that is). And so they voted in forms of socialized security programs.

We violated the trust and we reaped the result, and now we fail to take any accountability for it because we violated the Lord's way of giving and sharing and caring for those in need.

It should have never come to this! It is dead wrong in either case, and what's worse is the corporate welfare that completes the take what you need (now take what you want) philosophy, full circle.

I was on a Youth river trip once that lasted a week. It started nice enough, but someone had under budgeted for food and there wasn't enough! It was a week long trip. It became predatory as people made sure that they got theirs (after all they paid for the trip, they earned it, it was theirs. They didn't screw up the budget.) I remember going into a gift shop mid-way and picking out a soda then staying to buy a book. Everyone else had shuttled outside and were eating by the time I got back. (Food was always an afterthought for me). When I got out there were two sodas left and neither was the kind I had picked out, so not wanting to take anyone else's soda that they had picked out, I asked everyone if everyone had gotten their soda. One of the non-member adults in the group lambasted me for taking too long and thus missing out (he misunderstood my motive and thought I was whining because someone took my soda) people thought that we were going to go to blows over it because I responded rather sharply, being offended that he thought I was being so petty rather than just not wanting to take anyone else's soda.

It was a rather tense trip. I usually just took off before dinner and came back after and ate whatever was left (if anything).

The mentality of welfare (both corporate and individual) reminds me of that trip. Everybody just fighting over the same stupid pot of money, or food, or whatever the idol is.

As usual to the best of my ability I just walked away. But unfortunately I never manage to stay out of all the petty scraps.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

This brings me to the other struggle that we have had.

We value family time. It is our greatest and most sacred duty to raise and care for our families.

So, my husband worked 80 hours a week for YEARS, and things got covered etc, but what happened? Our family fell apart. I felt like a single mother, and I wondered why am I married. I have no companion, no father for my children to turn to when they needed him. So, we cut back, we relocated etc. We have enjoyed a great deal of family time. Father's blessings, FHE, and many many other family experiences.

It was suggested that we increase our income. I leave the home and get a job that will bring in an additional $1000, or he takes a 2nd job in addition to the one he has. We were devastated at the thought. We FINALLY had a family unit, and we would have to mess it up all over again? So, we looked at what our priorities are, and prayed a lot. I think that the answers are coming together, but it has taken much sacrifice to get here. We have had yard sales, sold whatever we could sell that we didn't absolutely need, and that is why we are cutting back on things that others call essential. Cut the house cost, cut the car cost, settle with the medical debt (if possible). In order to do the third, the first two must change.

One for the Money talks about living within your means. That it is not about increasing your income. We are having our increased by forced overtime and this position I am going to take, but for the most part, we will do the most good for our family by cutting these expenses back. If it wasn't for the high interest rates on these items, and the medical debt did not exist, we would be fine as we are. Our home was only 25% of our income when we got it. I am not sure what the debt to income ratio is now that the garnishment has taken effect. That payment was only $100 a month, but it did not even cover the interest, now it will be over $200. Which sounds small, but our income dropped to only $2500 gross a month because of the layoffs, that is what it will average out to this year.

We have to find that balance in our lives. We can cut and cut and cut some more and earn more money, but if it robs the family of the time that needs to be there, it is pointless to have done it all.

Our marriage was saved because we had time together, because we cut back. I am thankful for the experiences, and I think that is why I am so fiercely protective of my family time and our family unit. Seeking for more money, in exchange for time with our eternal families.. what is the point? I don't want to regret my time on this earth. I want to say I have great memories with my children and husband and grandchildren and so on, we served a great deal of people, we grew together and learned together, it was a great life. Not, I wish I would have known my husband, who he was, and had time with him, I wish my children knew him...

I know this has gotten off the original "money" thread. Hopefully not too far.

I wish that our system was more just, and that there were less thieves involved in the managing of it. Where people truly can trade value for value.

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Darren
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True Value

Post by Darren »

I posted a lengthy article on money at: Zion and God's Law ~ THE PERFECT MONETARY SYSTEM http://www.latterdayconservative.com/fo ... 0633#10633 where I challenged the readers to see how many truths they could find. I recommend a read of these posts as they also help for this discussion as well. Here are just a few things I will bring here:
Money is nothing other than the unwavering faith of people in their politicians.
There are several stages of corruption that money goes through in the service of it’s master.
The essence of money, as we know it, is some one or group marking on a piece of metal that its value is so much. The question of course is, "Who believes it?"
And how does the Great and Abominable Church establish the value of money?

Then the Great and Abominable Church turned its corrupting influence to destroying the “Work Together” values of the Lost 10 Tribes:
Money was a perplexing mystery to the newly arrived groups of German refugees. They had no need for it in their society.
How did the Lost 10 Tribes “Work Together” before money.
That single entity of value is the resource of the credit-belief-faith of people operating under those rules of the medieval Gild System (the Hansa) that the English-speaking people call "the Law Merchant."
The History of the “Work Together” value of the Lost 10 Tribes.
This single entity of value is at once the most valuable and useful thing which mankind has ever discovered. The "Good Faith" of the people of Northern Europe, which is the basis of the Law Merchant, is the one thing that mankind has ever discovered that is so much more valuable and useful than gold or silver ever were, as circulating exchange media, that the disappearance of both of the latter as circulating exchange media, is scarcely missed.
The most useful and valuable thing that the human race has ever come upon, the Good Faith of the people of the townships of Northern Europe, is far more valuable and useful than money. And not only does that Good Faith not have anything at all to do with Socrates’ invention of money, it has nothing to do with Socrates’ concepts of Orthodoxy, Politics and Socrates’ System for Learning.
Stocks and Bonds
It is said that the London Bond Market sells $13.3875 Quadrillion per year, in Bonds.

This financing of the World is conducted by some 500,000 Investment Bankers who use the ancient, totally independent and autonomous political entity of the Commonwealth of London as their tried and true medium (VALUE) of bringing predictability to an otherwise quite chaotic World.

The ancient Original Christian Commonwealth procedure by which they take the Communion of the Lord’s Supper in their London Communes to become “THE FREE MEN OF LONDON” was “ancient” at the time of the Magna Carta. This procedure of the “Communes” or “Commons” of Europe is the essence of the world's wealth.
In 1967 President McKay called Cleon Skousen into his Office and told him, “Brother Skousen, our People are becoming slaves. They are falling for the same old lures and tricks that all of the rest of the world are. I want you to go down to Provo and work on how our People can ‘Work Together By The Law.’” When Brother Skousen asked what he could do, he said that President McKay “prophesied to me, ‘You go down there and the way will open up!’”

Brother Skousen began his work for President McKay by establishing the Freeman Institute in Provo.

It is now 2007, 40 years later. “Have Our People learned how to ‘Work Together By the Law’ yet?”

No.

“Why not?”

It seems that the main problem is that they have been going to the Organization that had the biggest effect on stopping Our People from being able to learn how to “Work Together By The Law,” to study from them on how they would tell us how to “Work Together By The Law.”

That doesn’t work.

We have available to us how “Our People” can learn how to “Work Together By The Law.” Let’s start learning how to do that, now!

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

Perhaps Zion will never fully grasp the concepts that you are trying to teach until they return from the North countries with their records and teach it to us first hand. I am becoming more convinced of that every time I think of it.

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Darren
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The records of the Lost 10 Tribes

Post by Darren »

An LDS man, inspired and qualified to do so, spends his entire life studying the surviving remnants of the histories of the Lost 10 Tribes in all their original languages. These remnants contain the words of their prophets. He puts his abridgment, his interpretation, and a plan for living by these words down on paper, for all to see and to teach you first hand as you suggest.

Perhaps there will be no other records to come to the LDS before the millennium from the Lost 10 Tribes. Having already returned, and with the vast resources of the Internet, their records have come with them.

Cleon Skousen found many things of value in these works.
Hugh Nibley found something of value in these works.
Steven R. Covey, through their common friend, found something of value in these works.
The good parts of the Township Movement of the 1980’s was based on these works.
And much much more.

And you say that, “Perhaps Zion will never …”

Well, they already have started.

The question is, what are you looking for?

Cleon Skousen once complained to this LDS Man about the propaganda he had to wade through to find the truth. Are we trying to live by the propaganda or are we seeking the sake of the Lord.

Your becoming more convinced as you mention above is most likely rooted in the mental propaganda taught to us all in school from our youth.

Begin to look, doubt not, fear not, and you will see what you are looking for.

I think about the cultural shock that investigators of the Church must feel when presented the LDS Gospel for the first time. But there is something that gets them over the wall between their old understanding and into their new. They are looking and seeking, with out which they return back to the culture where they are most comfortable with.

I am here to help you and you may ask me or my friend any question you would like, What I have sent you is a marvelous gift, also available on the internet at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/workbythelaw/

God Bless. Darren

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

That's nice, and I think that there is a lot of truth to what you have been saying. But my comments were meant not to say that the principles are not here, but rather that they are and likely will not be adopted in any major way previous to the Lost Tribes bringing us a second or third witness to their truth.

I don't need convincing (you are focusing on the wrong guy) I am willing to work and live that way now, but who would join me? A bird can love a fish, but where would they live? Until there are a sufficient number of birds in the sea (or what have you) then I am forced to remain a solo act.

Likely you will not find widespread adoption of these principles until (I'll insert it into my time line for you)

First Zion and her haughty daughters are humbled "upon my house."
Second, Zion is separated out from Babylon as the Lord preaches His own sermons.
Third the day of choosing sends a contingent to Independence to build up the waste places (obviously after they become so).
Fourth a temple is built there to which the Lost tribes may come ("about that time the lost Tribes will be heard of in the North Countries")
Fifth Zion who in all likelihood at that time will have been living the law of consecration to some degree, will begin to act as one.

I could see it happening any time after the chastening hand of the Lord falls upon this people. Until then it will likely continue to pan out like the Wordperfect mess you mentioned earlier. We are just not humble enough as a people, yet.

buffalo_girl
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Post by buffalo_girl »

I think Buffalo Girl is the resident expert on how far self sufficiency can go under our New World Order. Without some change there will not be any answer soon except as you say to be good slaves.
The sad truth is we are only one major illness or accident away from slavery ourselves.

Perhaps a major economic downturn will force the members of the Church to realize that the only way we will become ZION is by working together to build it.

My husband (not LDS, but a good man) & I would gladly share the land with those Saints or family members willing to work at building a more productive self-sustaining enterprise. Our two oldest sons - both carpenters - are not interested in living and working here. The members of the ward I attend view us as eccentric hobby farmers and a bit to be pitied. It isn't easy for two people over 55 to keep up with all the labor demanded by what we are trying to do.

Every basic element needed to take care of several families is here on this land. All we lack is willing hands, strong backs, someone with horse skills, and the humble genius of Nephi. We have water, grazing land, some timber, buildings, good livestock for food & clothing fiber, draft horses for hauling & pulling, and three houses in need of carpentry skills to become habitable.

No one, no single family can be ZION. We will need to learn to work together, to share our gifts and talents, and to find joy in the process.
That through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand indepenent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world...D&C 78:14

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CHH
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Post by CHH »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north551.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lora/m.lora35.html

You simply cannot get around it. Either you support anarchy and thus no taxation, laying a tax on foreigners (as CHH does) which is likewise going to bite us in the rump and is likewise theft, or think that government funding should be voluntary (which is where my support goes).

The current system however is not voluntary. Who can claim the moral high ground? If you buy anything form anyone you are supporting socialism. We simply cannot look at it with the least degree of allowance.

So then either we stop whining and play by the current sucky rules of the game, or we pick up our stuff and go home.

Revolution is the only way and it will come by compulsory means soon enough. Until then limit the negative influences of socialism in your life and fight to get out of the game.
Foreigners are receiving a benefit when they are ALLOWED to trade in the USA. It is 100% voluntary. They have no Right to trade here nor do we force them to trade here. Therefore it cannot be theft.

Do you NEVER get tired of lying?

Excise taxes are voluntary. I support excise taxes used for legal purposes. Gas tax is an excise tax. If you do not use the roads you do no pay the tax. Easy. If you do not want to pay the luxury tax don't buy the luxury.

The federal government deals with FOREIGN issues. Naturally they collect taxes on foreigners.

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CHH
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2491
Location: Nevada

Re: True Value

Post by CHH »

Darren wrote:
We have available to us how “Our People” can learn how to “Work Together By The Law.” Let’s start learning how to do that, now!
Nevada's Independent American Party has 45,000 registered members and we not only work within the law we know how to use it as a weapon against the theft of our rights.

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CHH
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2491
Location: Nevada

Post by CHH »

LoveChrist wrote:My bishop told me that long term assistance is ok if they can see that it will really help you get out of your situation.

Our debt is medical debt. Besides that there is the house, the car, and education.

If we did not have the medical debt, we could actually get out of debt without help. The medical debt is so excessive, that it literally takes our money for food.

We are selling our land, our house, and possibly our car.

We will get into a more affordable house. A car without a balance, and then see if we can settle with this Medical debt.

We have not used credit cards for over 5 years.

My husband works between 45-80 hours a week, and also has seasonal layoffs.

How to you teach a man to fish?

Sometimes, the man is fishing, but it is not enough to feed the sharks too.
Could you pay the medical debt if you did not have to pay Social Security taxes and IRS 1040 style taxes?

Do you realize that with medical debt you can reduce payments and they can do nothing to you?

Have you gone to the medical provider and demanded a reduction in the debt since they charge cash payers 4 times what the charge insurance companies?

Proud 2b Peculiar
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5560
Location: American Fork, Utah

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

CHH wrote:
LoveChrist wrote:My bishop told me that long term assistance is ok if they can see that it will really help you get out of your situation.

Our debt is medical debt. Besides that there is the house, the car, and education.

If we did not have the medical debt, we could actually get out of debt without help. The medical debt is so excessive, that it literally takes our money for food.

We are selling our land, our house, and possibly our car.

We will get into a more affordable house. A car without a balance, and then see if we can settle with this Medical debt.

We have not used credit cards for over 5 years.

My husband works between 45-80 hours a week, and also has seasonal layoffs.

How to you teach a man to fish?

Sometimes, the man is fishing, but it is not enough to feed the sharks too.
Could you pay the medical debt if you did not have to pay Social Security taxes and IRS 1040 style taxes?

Do you realize that with medical debt you can reduce payments and they can do nothing to you?

Have you gone to the medical provider and demanded a reduction in the debt since they charge cash payers 4 times what the charge insurance companies?
The medical debt hired an attorney over 4 years ago because our payments were not acceptable. That payment was increased to $100 a month. (the interest on this debt is about $425 a month). Because my husband was laid off we were behind on our payment by 40 days. He went in with 2 payments they denied it, because they had already started garnishment of wages. We got it reduced from the 25% they wanted to the 10% because he is head of household.

Not paying SS would have made it possible.. my husband has about $500 taken every month for taxes. We get "refunded" money when we file the 1040. Our medical bill is after insurance, and the person we owe the now $25,000 to is a member of the church.

We have tried to settle, even before we bought the car we now have. But they want $10,000 cash all at once, or pay a payment like this for the rest of our lives. If we could get rid of the medical debt, we would be fine financially with our house and car.

Our furnace died several months ago, and now the cooler is going out too, so I don't know how much progress we are really going to make since it requires replacement now. (it was built in 1952 and the parts to repair are not available anymore). So the amount of money we would get from the sell of the other land would only cover that and not much else... I am hoping for a miracle.... Maybe I will be paid well for the Executive position I have been offered for a start up Non-profit organization.. I will know in about 12 weeks.

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