The Nature of Money by Lew Rockwell

[JasonI am a nobody!]

...so half the people mine just so the other half can have money??? What sense does that make???

...now if they were mining to build the kingdom (build buildings, infrastructure, etc - i.e. production) it would be a different story....but just to have money? ...the crack pipe economically imo ....not to mention restricting rate of growth to mining operations....along with control of the money

Where did you get these numbers? Who said HALF of the people needs to mine? Much smaller percentage on average usually mines. A lot of gold and silver is already above ground. Besides, it is Free Market that decides what percentage of people mines, not you.

...free market already chose fiat. We as a people (not the elite) don't have the gold and silver.....so unless you plan on robbing them and distributing equally to the masses...

If you start from zero....every ounce in circulation has to come out of the ground or be purchased (with what) from the miners who get it out of the ground. Then the labor captured in the metal is dormant for the rest of its life as money.....produces nothing. Zero value added!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

...free market already chose fiat.

Fiat CANNOT EXIST in a Free Market. It cannot exist without government granted and government enforced monopoly, which is the DIRECT opposite of Free Market. You seem to have problem with opposites. Black is white, false is true. But alas, ...

We as a people (not the elite) don't have the gold and silver.....so unless you plan on robbing them and distributing equally to the masses...

If you start from zero....every ounce in circulation has to come out of the ground or be purchased (with what) from the miners who get it out of the ground. Then the labor captured in the metal is dormant for the rest of its life as money.....produces nothing. Zero value added!

We are not starting from zero. And we must start with Liberty. i.e. Free Competition in Currencies that Freedom and Benson Principle demand, which will overwhelmingly result in 100% commodity backed currency, i.e. the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul on the Gold Standard and Competing Currencies Fox News October 4 2009

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

“I believe in honest money, the gold and silver coinage of the Constitution, and a circulating medium convertible into such money without loss. I regard it as a flagrant violation of the explicit provisions of the Constitution for the federal government to make it a criminal offense to use gold or silver coin as legal tender or to issue irredeemable paper money.”

(Ezra Taft Benson, God, Family, Country: Our Three Great Loyalties, 1974.)

Let us prepare ourselves for the trying time ahead and resolve that, with the grace of God and through our own self-reliance, we shall rebuild a monetary system and a healthy economy which, once again, will become the model for all the world. (An Enemy Hath Done This, pp. 220-21.)" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p 640.)

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul Interview with Newsmax

Ron Paul: "It's not that gold is perfect; it is that paper is insane!"

[Bob WebsterHi, I'm new.]

MONOPOLY – THE STORY OF MONEY
By Bob Webster, 1996

A BRIEF OVERVIEW
Back in January 1962, Athenium Publishers had a number one best seller book by Frederic Morton titled, THE ROTHSCHILDS, copyrighted by the Curtis Publishing Co. It became a Book of the Month Club selection by June 1962, and made its eleventh printing in August. Crest Books then made its first issue of the book in February 1963, and portions appeared in Holiday Magazine that year.

Three decades later I stumbled across a paperback copy in a residential garage sale near Seattle, WA. I had heard of “The Rothschilds” as primary players amid the political/financial intrigue of world politics, but had no verification of all the many rumors, which ranged from “They’re the Great And Abominable” to “They’re a total myth.”

I was intrigued to learn from the author that he had been commissioned by the family to write the family story, not to duplicate other existing accounts, such as, “The Magnificent Rothschilds,” by Mr. Cecil Roth of Oxford, but expressly to highlight the human and philanthropic side of this rags-to-riches story. I was primarily interested in the family’s financial history, and this brief overview attempts to identify the Rothschild influence in its world-altering significance.

In ancient historical times, people traded or bartered with commodities. Wealth was determined by how much goods and possessions a man had. Men were in control of all economies and nations. Precious metals, such as gold or silver, gradually became a more convenient medium of exchange, and their accumulation became the standard of wealth. Wealth, of course, has always determined power – the ability to transact business, obtain possessions, establish oneself in a desirable economic class and establish valuable and protective political alliances. In medieval Europe, a few shrewd traders discovered that they could influence and even control kings, nations and history with their money, by financing business ventures and political activities, such as wars. Competition was keen to become a king’s private banker, complete with official protection and social prestige among the highest circles of influence.

These private financiers and goldsmiths became the world’s first bankers. Their standard, honest banking practice was to keep as much gold and silver on deposit as was lent out. As currency replaced metal, for convenience, paper was written as acceptable legal tender, backed one hundred percent by precious metal actually on deposit, and it was considered literally “as good as gold.” All currency or checks could be redeemed at any time at the bank vault for the metal itself.

But, an astute European banker named Rothschild observed that depositors seldom required an accounting of the actual gold “safely on deposit” in the bank of the king or other nobleman, compared with the currency issued against it. By simply lending out more money value than was actually on deposit, the banker made more money on the interest, and “fractional banking” was born – unethical, but highly profitable. The owner of the gold on deposit received his due interest, and the banker considered himself rewarded by his business ingenuity with the ‘excess profits.’ Protected from exterior audits, the banker prospered personally from the use of other people’s money – a key principle of wealth still in practice in today’s banking systems. The Rothschild family’s five sons strategically spread out over as many individual nations of Europe, dominating and often eliminating competition through manipulated price controls and boom and bust cycles, which devastated people in the resulting depressions, with fewer and fewer surviving bankers buying up the spoils dirt cheap, and further consolidating their ownerships.

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Other basic principles of private banking included securing protected rights to become the government’s own centralized bank, free from competition and protected from audit. The pattern is obvious, and the game is called MONOPOLY. With accumulated personal assets, bankers could further eliminate competition, securing their position in ever widening circles of influence. From behind the scenes, bankers became more wealthy and powerful than the kings themselves, controlling financial and political events on national, continental and global scales. Through money control, world control became their natural objective.

Europe’s system of private, centralized banking, however, could not get a firm hold in the so-called New World. Because America’s “constitutional monetary system” had never yet been implemented, America was viewed as a ripe and vulnerable plum to bankers, if only they could somehow establish a privately controlled, central banking system in America.

America emerged from their Revolution deeply in debt to non-English European sources, principally France. As the fledgling nation faced harsh, post-war realities, its first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, a strong proponent of English-style central government, and a disciple of the James Rothschild family’s Paris banking influence, urged the new President and Congress to continue its dependence on European private loans “for just the first twenty years, until the new nation could get on its feet.” Europe drooled over the opportunity to control America as they controlled other nations. Power always follows the money trail.

Private bank loans to the American Government continue today, in defiance of the Constitutional Monetary System deliberately designed by the founders. The framers’ ingenious system – Art 1 sec 8, keeping America free from outside economic control, with the Congress controlling the value of the money and its distribution, and all interest on loans returning to the US Treasury instead of to private bankers, has still never been implemented. Instead of a truly independent, wealthy nation with a steady-valued dollar, no inflation and no debt, America has remained an economic colony. The only way to free itself would be to enforce its Constitution.

On the other hand, the only way for international bankers to secure a private control over America was to circumvent the Constitution with a privately controlled banking system made to appear “constitutional.” After decades of persistent effort by bankers, domestic and foreign (mostly part of the same Rothschild family), that official-looking system was planned in 1910 and accomplished in 1913, with the “Federal Reserve Act.” The world was finally theirs forever. The American national debt is today in the hopeless trillions, and despite combined taxation rates over fifty per cent; modern Americans ignorantly consider themselves a free people.

This overview helps us to appreciate an account of the origin of America’s “Federal Reserve System,” which is revealed in the following two book reports.


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THE ROTHSCHILDS (A book report)

Among Jewish poverty in 1744 was born in Frankfurt, Germany, Mayer Amschel Baur, soon to become an orphan. His Baur ancestors had settled at the end of “Jew Street” in Frankfurt, in a house bearing a red shield on the front wall. Here Mayer and two brothers ran a second hand shop. Having fulfilled a modest banking house apprenticeship, Mayer began a somewhat prosperous hobby of trading old coins among wealthy German families. This developed into a local house of money exchange. Mayer hung the red shield over his door to advertise his goldsmith business, and adopted “Rothschild” (red shield) as his surname. He gradually made delicate but important business contacts with many influential people, including German royalty. From these aristocrats, Mayer learned some profitable tricks of finance, such as fractional banking, currency manipulation, discounting, and the creation of scarcities.

As America was struggling toward its decision for independence, in 1773, at age 30, Mayer invited twelve other wealthy and influential men to his shop, to persuade them to pool their resources and establish world dependence, through the revolutionary movement. He read from his prepared manuscript his “inspired plan” how they could eventually rule the world. The key to his bold strategy was to use the power of their combined wealth to create and exploit class warfare, by causing such adverse economic conditions that the masses would be reduced to unemployment and near starvation, and would then rise up in rebellion against the ruling classes. Bankers would propagate disinformation to discredit any opponents. Media would be persuaded to employ either a frontal assault or silence tactic. Such periodic economic, social-political upheavals would generate business profits benefiting the bankers, who would be financing all aspects of each upheaval.

Mayer Rothschild’s 35-point plan included these main points:
1. Law is force.
2. Political freedom is an idea, not a fact.
3. Gold power replaces political power; Rulers must ask bankers for money to rule.
4. The end justifies the means. Any moral code is vulnerable; no skilled politician abides by it.
5. Right lies in force. Only the strong have rights, and they must reconstruct all existing institutions and become sovereign lords over all the weak liberals who succumb to force.
6. Our power must remain invisible until it cannot be undermined.
7. Use alcohol, drugs, corruption and all vices to systematically corrupt all youth of all nations.
8. To seize property by any means is a right of force.
9. Seduce the masses to believe in liberty, equality and fraternity, while we establish a new aristocracy based solely on wealth.
10. Direct wars such that both sides fall further into our debt.
11. Assure that public officials are obedient to our commands.
12. Control all outlets of information.
13. Develop panics and depressions toward an eventual new order of a one-world government under our control.
Over the decades, many of these points have been put into use by revolutionary and terrorist groups.


Mayer’s favorite years were the 1780’s, when he was in his 40’s. Although he moved out of Frankfurt’s Jewish ghetto to a better five-story house in 1785 at 1785 Judengasse, with a green shield on his wall, his well-established surname of “Rothschild” did not change. The German ghetto coin peddler was laying a foundation that would eclipse his unwary gentile aristocracy and dominate their entire European continent, and ultimately the entire world.
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Ten of Mayer’s twenty children survived to assist him, particularly five enterprising sons. Amschel became treasurer of Germany. Salomon achieved the same position in Vienna, Austria. Nathan rose to become the most powerful man in England. Kalman controlled Italy, while Jacob was lord of finance over France.

These five eager apprentices, with their five equally industrious sisters became Mayer’s arms, ears, and moneymaking hands. They learned that there is strength in unity and interdependence. Rothschild logic is like an octopus, and only blood, male Rothschilds hold control over family business, which is totally private and secret; there are never any non-family audits.

These scheming merchants worked hard and made enormous profits, trading from different countries and supplying different sides of the same wars. Through their many contacts they learned to influence money values before events happened publicly. America and the entire ”new world” appeared full of opportunity to be financed through European banks, primarily France. While the US Constitution was being signed, around 1787 – 89 the Rothschild family played French and English currencies against each other, through check cashing (alias draft discounting).

While other financial houses of Europe haggled, Rothschild banks facilitated transactions and earned public confidence, until they established their own ‘trusted’ banking houses, handling transactions and selling merchandise faster, cheaper and more efficiently than their greedier gentile competitors.

Rothschilds learned to influence higher government taxes to secure funds from the public for which they would become trustees. While historians wrote of Napolean’s power in France, a quieter, greater power emerged from Frankfurt’s Jew Street ghetto. When Denmark faced bankruptcy in 1804, Mayer negotiated a neighborly loan from German’s surpluses, and provided the convenient transportation of goods and banking services. They became the chief bankers of the continent’s greatest monarchs. They saved Germany’s national treasures from Napoleon in 1806.

With Germany’s monarch William in exile from Napoleon, Rothschild continued to manage William’s business affairs effectively, using false-bottom coaches, night-time transactions and secret codes. Goods and money moved freely across Europe like an underground smuggling empire. While handling William’s finances in trust (at least the principal . . . well, at least the reported principal), Rothschild fortunes grew, with no auditors beyond themselves.

In 1810, the family switched from commodities to the ultimate commodity itself, MONEY – with interest. Manipulating the bond market to profit from both the rise and fall of prices became their obsession. Others’ losses became Rothschild gains, without a tear shed. Despite the siphoning of Williams resources (all held in Rothschild’s name and unaccountable to the monarch), his portion still grew enough in his absence to make him the wealthiest man in Europe – or so he thought. And he was ever grateful to Rothschild.

Rothschild’s family bought eight million dollars worth of gold from the East India Company in 1811. While Nathan became England’s chief financier of the war against Napoleon, Mayer’s son Jacob (alias James among gentiles) loaned funds to Napoleon to finance the French side of the same war. James, a teenage Rothschild had seduced Napoleon into financing its own ruin. The family had established the world’s first international monetary exchange house, under total family control. They became heads not only of banking and merchandizing, but transportation and communications as well.

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Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo made England the greatest European power, and the Rothschilds her chief financial agent. This unprecedented status was accomplished through decades of patient, diplomatic hard work and cold cunning. When Napoleon lost at Waterloo on June 19, 1812, Nathan sold England’s stock market into ruinous losses, and then ‘saved’ England with a rallying buyout, ruthlessly manipulating the market in a contrived crisis, creating enormous Rothschild profits. Nathan declared, “I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man that controls Britain’s money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply.”

Family patriarch Mayer Rothschild died 19 Sep 1812, and the Rothschild brothers were on their own to compete with the hostile gentile bankers without Mayer’s myriad of connections. But by 1816 the six trillionaire brothers decided that the divine right of kings had been superseded by the divine power of money.

The clan had carefully controlled family marriages to keep fortunes in family male control, and to establish important ties with other prominent families. Of some fifty-eight family marriages, half were between cousins. They constantly lobbied for titles of nobility for recognition among the gentiles, who were willing to use Jew loans and services, but reluctant to extend them official public status.

When a Rothschild made a fuss, the financial houses and governments trembled. Nathan was a ruthless stock manipulator, rumoring to create speculative market surges with impeccable cunning, selling suddenly to depress it, then re-buying at precise timing to reap profits, as other smaller players lost their investments. Manipulations seemed to be motivated by nothing more than the desire to conquer more, or to prove who had the power. The family bank at New Court, London is still gold broker for the Bank of England. The London Rothschilds still control the Alliance Insurance Corporation which they founded. Rothschild finances saved Brazil from financial collapse.

In France, James (Jacob) not only survived Napoleon, but bought his estate. James alone held 600 million marks, more than all other bankers combined. French kings came and went, but James became more highly entrenched near the real forces of power. They defused their enemies and the press with generous contributions to worthy causes on both sides of many causes and issues. The public loved them

All of the Rothschild brothers lived lavishly in enormous mansions on enormous estates, furnished with the finest of everything available in the world, whatever money could buy – hunting grounds, agriculture and horticulture projects, lakes, wildlife preserves, golf courses, sculpture, paintings, furnishings, scores of faithful and well-paid servants. Their abundant acts of philanthropy and well-funded social festivities won the favor of peasants and kings alike. Many of the continents finest artisans and musicians found employment or subsidy through the family. While the men kept the money flow secure and increasing, their wives ruled joyfully as virtual queens, governing their huge palaces and estates with the finest of furnishings, arts, landscaping, and gardens maintained by flocks of loyal resident caretakers, while sponsoring opulent social events as society’s ultimate role models, unpressured by any thought of a budget or limitation to their fancies.

Every Rothschild child was assured a position of wealth and position, and was carefully schooled in the family tradition, culture and religion. It became an unwritten Rothschild tradition for each parent to leave each child with no less a financial inheritance than what the parents began with. Parents charged their heirs to live in perfect harmony, avoiding unpleasant disputes, angry passions and legalities, to exercise tolerance, and to remain true to their Jewish faith. They forbid any public inventory of any estate, or any publicity of their worth. Although they publicly deplored wars and conflicts, and made the most intricate diplomatic efforts to keep peace among nations, the longer wars lasted, the greater the family profited.
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Rothschilds competed aggressively in all new and significant business enterprises world wide, involving transportation, resource development and communications. They indirectly financed political figures favorable to their liberal goals of behind-the-scenes power and influence, particularly financial control. The combination of finance and politics is a Rothschild trademark. Control of money brought control of the news media, major universities, industrial networks, political think tanks and key government agencies. Europe was controlled by six bankers.

For awhile, the newer generation of Rothschilds seemed content to live the good life and finance their favorite causes. But in 1881 they revived Mayer’s traditional finance practices. January 1882 they instigated a French market manipulation that wiped out most banking competitors in Europe. A repeat panic occurred eight years later, in which a major competitor failed, and the Rothschild position emerged even stronger in England and the world money markets. Surviving bankers took note.

Rothschild’s ultimate triumph was July 9th, 1885, when gentile politics reluctantly granted public status to a Jew; Nathan Mayer de Rothschild was finally sworn into the British House of Lords. He had finally become King of the Jews. A year later, in 1886 Lord Nathan Mayer de Rothschild died. In 1887 Edmund Rothschild bought “The Wailing Wall” in Jerusalem from the Arabs, and the funds have never stopped flowing to re-establish Israel’s Zion. . In 1901 Wilhelm died and two of the five houses of Rothschild were dissolved, leaving family fortunes in the hands of the London, Paris and Vienna branches.

American banking was conquered by the Federal Reserve System in 1913. Diplomatic efforts did not prevent WWI in 1914, and once it started, it wasn’t easy to keep it going. Each Rothschild supported his own nation’s war effort. An American named Herbert Hoover, plagued by scandals from exploits in India, played a role in supplying aid to Germany through French-Belgian banks.
Rothschild advice to nations at war was to tax the rich to finance the war. Much of these military-industrial-alliance-generated funds became bankers’ profits. At its conclusion, while gentile finances rested on the money of stockholders in gentile banks, Rothschild fortunes were totally in family hands. Yet, the post-war changes from aristocracies to democracies across Europe upset family business connections, and government taxes began to touch even a few Rothschild family fortunes.

After WWI ended in 1918, Austrian power dwindled, but the family reorganized and asserted itself. The French house had established an international syndicate, including JP Morgan in New York, and the Creditanstalt in Vienna, who at a pre-planned signal in 1925 began to depress pounds and push up francs. No one could withstand such wealth manipulated with such split-second skill. The world-wide depression of 1929 toppled Austria’s business and banking. James, however, bailed it out and retained control over the textile factories, mining industries and chemical companies. In return for Herbert Hoover’s WWI support, the Rothschild influence, through the Warburgs of Germany, eventually rewarded Hoover with the dubious honor of the American Presidency in 1928, followed by the great economic crash of 1929.
Rothschild wealth consists in the bankruptcy of nations.

Hitler’s armies began their conquest of Europe in 1935. But Rothschilds prevailed and are still the world’s greatest capitalist name. It seems unbelievable that not only were Napoleon and Bismark outwitted by Rothschilds, but also Hitler, Goering and Himmler. They had Louis Rothschild in prison, but were so financially dependent, politically outmaneuvered,and personally charmed by Louis that they did not kill this most hated king of the Jews. In 1949 the family reasserted itself in the stock market again in oil, diamonds and minerals manipulations, as a parting tribute to Deouard’s death. Since 1950, the Paris house has performed brilliantly. Edmond is the richest of the modern Rothschild family, and the wealthiest man in Europe.
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Rothschild industriousness and command of their dynasty is total. Three cousins control the French house, one of the world’s most powerful banks. In London, the Rothschilds meet daily with four other major bullion brokers and fix the price of gold for the United Kingdom, eating lunch at precisely 1:00 p.m. in honor of Rothschild patriarch Mayer, who ate on Frankfurt’s old Jew Street at that hour two centuries ago. The masters of monopoly are still in control of world economies.


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A Book Report by Bob Webster
on
SECRETS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE
By Eustace Mullins

In 1949, writer Eustace Mullins (EM) was visiting American poet Ezra Pound in Washington DC at St. Elizabeth’s Hospital (a federal institution for the mentally insane) where Pound was ‘committed’ (for 13 ½ years without trial, until his release in 1958) as a political prisoner of the US government. His crime? Attempting to persuade the American people to not enter WWII. Upon recommendations by pro-communists Henry Dexter White, Laughlin Currie and Alger Hiss, President F.D. Roosevelt had personally ordered Pound’s illegal ‘insanity’ indictment and detention.

Upon encouragement by Pound, EM researched and verified in the Library of Congress Pound’s charges that not only the two great world wars, but several financial depressions, as well as the subversion and capture of the American monetary system were all the result of a global conspiracy.

In 1950, EM learned firsthand how completely this cancer had spread when no foundations would finance the publication of his manuscript titled, “Mullins on the Federal Reserve.” Not one of eighteen major publishers would publish it. After two years, it was finally published in 1952 by two of Pound’s friends. It became an instant “Best Seller,” justifying a second edition in 1954. The German 1955 edition was seized and burned by the German government, upon recommendation by the US High Commissioner to Germany. A new edition in 1980 was finally allowed to circulate in Germany, 25 years later!

Despite successful American wars for independence from England in 1776 and 1812, America remained an economic colony of Great Britain and international banking interests, tracing the Federal Reserve to its “London connection.”

In brief, the Federal Reserve System (FRS) is not federal, has no reserves, and is not a “system” at all. It is an unconstitutional criminal syndicate. All stock of the FRS is held by private commercial banks that are FRS members. No stock is owned or controlled by the US government. The same bankers who had financed economic developments and contrived ruinous depression cycles in Europe for generations, via the Rothschilds and others, also created and funded the FRS in 1913, the Social Security System in 1913, the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, WWI, the depression of 1920, the Wall Street crash of 1929, WWII, the switch from gold to paper currency in 1945 and the degeneration of America to the world’s greatest debtor by 1990. To really understand the FRS of America, one needs to know the history of finance in Europe.

So that you don’t think that Eustace Mullins is the only author who has written about the Rothschild family and its empires, at this point, the following are selections from other closely related books on this topic:

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The Rothschilds, by Frederic Morton.
Pawns In The Game, by William Guy Carr.
The Empire of the City, by E.C. Knuth.
The Profits of War, by Richard Lewinsohn.
Great Soviet Encyclopedia, Edition 3, 1873, Macmillon, London.
Twenty-Eight Years IN Wall Street, by Henry Clews.
The Romance of the Rothschilds, by Ignatius Balla, Everleigh Nash.
Inside Europe, by John Guthrie.
The Media Monopoly, by Ben H. Bagdikian.


Poet prisoner Ezra Pound urged EM to write the FRS story like a mystery novel, for it truly is more bizarre and frightening than fiction. After the orchestrated panic of 1907, public outcry to control the bankers resulted in Teddy Roosevelt’s appointment of a National Monetary Commission. After two years of carefully-arranged study in Europe, a select group agreed to meet again on American soil to discuss the future of America’s economy.

On the night of 22 November, 1910 a group of leading financiers from the New York JP Morgan Bank (a French Rothschild connection), Paul Warburg of the German Rothschild banks, along with a few selected US Treasury officials and politicians boarded a special train from Hoboken, New Jersey to Jekyll Island, Georgia for what they called a ‘duck hunt.’ America was the ‘sitting duck.’

One sixth of the total wealth of the world was present, in total secrecy, and for a week developed the seduction of America’s financial control, by an instrument called The Federal Reserve System. It was like shooting ducks. They designed both a legislative bill and a political scheme to get it passed. At stake was control of all US money and credit into private banking hands forever, totally circumventing the US Constitutional Monetary System, which still had not been put into operation!

A private central bank system would be created by the US Congress, giving up their constitutionally mandated authority to issue and control the US money supply. Thomas Jefferson’s battle against Alexander Hamilton’s Rothschild central bank scheme had continued successful by Pres. Andrew Jackson. But studies of the financial panics of 1873, 1893, and 1907 demonstrated that such panics were deliberately orchestrated by London bankers, notably the Rothschilds. At Jekyll Island, the duck hunters were persuaded to recommend Paul Warburg’s shrewd Rothschild proposal. To the unwary American public, the proposed solution to those destructive, centralized, private banking manipulations would be to establish a central private bank for America, but called by another name – a federal reserve system. It would appear to be decentralized through regional bank members, but all would be part of the central bank of New York, which would be controlled by the London Rothschild bank.

Congress’ constitutional authority would be replaced by executive branch Presidential appointments of the federal reserve board chairman, while the other six voting members would be selected by the private banks themselves. There would be no audits of the FRS. Instead of Congress issuing and circulating its own US Treasury money, tied to the actual Gross National Production (GNP), without inflation and receiving the interest into the US treasury, America would instead continue to request operating loans from private bankers, with all the interest going to the FRS bank members. European money would at last control the nation whose Revolutionary War it had financed in 1776.

Now, the FRS syndicate, not Congress, would fix the value and distribution of all US money and credit, just as it does in Europe. The FRS guaranteed unending inflation, an unstoppable, unpayable national debt and predictable national bankruptcy. The FRS would systematically, eventually own the entire world.
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To accomplish this ultimate deception, both political parties were convinced to sponsor similar versions of what they were told was an “anti-banking” bill, assuring passage by whichever party came to power in the 1912 presidential election. Both parties claimed their bill would control the evil international bankers, stabilize the economy and prevent future crashes. Although at the time the conspiracy was hidden from public knowledge, exposure to the truth in later years revealed the swindle. Deferring knowledge of the truth, by giving the documents some form of official immunity from for decades exposure, became a key tactic, to be exploited in many future enterprises.

With financial control of the major press, key university analysts, and significant members of both political parties, the public was deceived. When the press labeled the Republican bill and Taft as the pro-banker plan, Republican Teddy Roosevelt was persuaded to challenge Taft for the presidency, and save the nation. Thus the republican vote was effectively split, and the Woodrow Wilson Democrats won the White House and both houses of Congress. The bankers had funded all three candidates in this incredibly clever tactic. The stakes were high – America and the world.

As soon as key opposition in Congress had been assured that no banking bill would appear until after the 1913 Christmas recess, they went home for the holidays. In two days, Dec 18 and 19, this fiercely controversial bill was quickly passed, then signed into law by President Wilson on Dec 23, 1913. America had become a permanent financial colony of the international banking conspiracy. For the Rothschild Jews, Christmas had come two days early.

Gradually gold and silver have been replaced by an “elastic currency;” paper Federal Reserve Notes replaced coins and treasury Notes, and the Constitutional checks and balances were discarded in favor of the rule of secret kings. Now controlled by six European bankers, America was no longer a free nation.

The FRS banks took over on 16 November, 1914, a day Paul Warburg considered as “the fourth of July in the economic history of the United States.” Soon, the original proposal of just six FRS members was changed to twelve – all satellites of the New York central member under JP Morgan. Together, Morgan and Warburg chose the members of the FRS, soon called the FED, which included themselves, of course. Ten of these largest banks are Rothschild subsidiaries. Paul Warburg even became featured in a syndicated American comics strip, “Little Orphan Annie,” as Daddy Warbucks.

Bankers view economies like waves on the beach, alternately sweeping investors upward in surges of prosperity, then sliding back down, leaving many gasping their last on the sand. These waves are generated by the power bankers’ artificial expansion and contraction of credit, which they control. Since the 1930’s, Rothschild-style banker “round tables” fixed the value of credit in London. A similar “round table” proved effective in New York’s Rothschild subsidiaries under JP Morgan. Together they formed a British-American ‘secret society.’ Lest we forget, Mayer Rothschild’s original list of key points to control the world are still the family plan, and the wealth of Rothschild consists in the bankruptcies of nations.

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[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

MONOPOLY – THE STORY OF MONEY
By Bob Webster, 1996
...

Interesting!

[davedancaptain of 1,000]

The Constitution is inspired and it says the Federal Government should "coin the current coin" "regulate it's value" and prosecute counterfeiting. This national currency prevents local currency and trade wars.

However, just because the Federal Government makes the money, doesn't mean they control who gets it. They can regulate the value by interest rates on loans (voluntary tax)

Local Safety Societies can take that federal currency and administer fee-based loans for real assets and real output. That way, local banks make loan decisions and approval and not the FEDs. Inflation is controlled because money creation = real output.

Safety Society never lends money to invest on margin. Money only given for real output and real assets. This way the banks can redeem and repossess something of value if an individual defaults on the loan.

Save the local banks and you save the economy. If you just focus on making the currency redeemable, what good is redeeming currency when your banks just failed (Every depression and panic since before 1913)

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

The Constitution is inspired and it says the Federal Government should "coin the current coin" "regulate it's value" and prosecute counterfeiting. This national currency prevents local currency and trade wars.

However, just because the Federal Government makes the money, doesn't mean they control who gets it. They can regulate the value by interest rates on loans (voluntary tax)

Local Safety Societies can take that federal currency and administer fee-based loans for real assets and real output. That way, local banks make loan decisions and approval and not the FEDs. Inflation is controlled because money creation = real output.

Safety Society never lends money to invest on margin. Money only given for real output and real assets. This way the banks can redeem and repossess something of value if an individual defaults on the loan.

Save the local banks and you save the economy. If you just focus on making the currency redeemable, what good is redeeming currency when your banks just failed (Every depression and panic since before 1913)

You are making a mistake that all aspects of the Constitution were inspired. You are wrong on that, therefore your conclusions are also wrong. In addition, local or private currencies are perfectly legal under the Constitution. It is because of governments monopolizing monetary system via wicked taxation scheme that fiat was able to be gradually hoisted upon this nation.


Money is just another product, like milk, cement, or computers. It is just preferred as the medium of exchange. To say you need the government to issue money to prevent trade wars, is to say government needs to issue milk or cement to prevent trade wars. "Trade wars" in a truly free market are a very good thing! It's what makes the market work.

Your proposals, because they imply a government forced monopoly on the medium of exchange, violate the Benson Principle, (please see Honest Money Constitutional Amendment).

The true solution is to legalize Freedom, and to remove immoral (under the Benson Principle) application of government force, whereby government claims a monopoly on the medium of exchange, and allow Free Market to decide what the medium of exchange should be via free Competition in Currencies. History shows, that when Free Market exists, people overwhelmingly prefer gold, silver and other commodities to be the medium of exchange. This is because 100% commodity based monetary system is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man, and it needs no government coercion to operate. That's why it is called the currency of Free People, and the currency of Free Market.

Thanks for your post. Examine my response in the light of Fundamental Principles of Liberty, (including the Benson Principle) without which Liberty can neither exist, nor prosper, and must be unavoidably destroyed.

Thanks.

[SempiternalHarbingercaptain of 1,000]

@love is truth... You do know who funds and back Lew Rockwell Right?? Rockefellers and the wealthy.. You do know this right????

Do you have any idea where Austrian economics comes from?? Have you ever looked into it? Do you know the brians behind their flawed and immoral philosophy? Do you know who funds the austrian school and has made sure they have stayed around to minipulate our minds?What's scary is you have bought into this and now preach it as gospel.

Its all a dog and pony show brother. Austrians are not to be trusted. That includes Ron Paul! Ever read about Tavistock or the Frankfurt Institute? Or read Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley or The Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins??

It's the Hegelian Dialect at it's best! You have Austrian economics on one hand and Keynesian economics on the other. Spending versus Austerity. But if you do a little research you will soon realize they both ignore the real problem and ignore the real solution. What they both ignore (on purpose) is the common ground in this dialect. They both on purpose, completely ignore…. INTEREST!! WHY? Both Austrian and Keynesian economic theories also hold fundamental beliefs that do not square up. The exponential growth of debt in our debt based money system is ignored and refuted by both theories. In place of math, we are offered beliefs such as the “quantity theory of money.”

The “Keynesian-Austrian Dialectic” is a very real thing. You can trace these economic theories to a group known as the Mont Pelerin Society. Putting in a little bit of time one will soon make the connection and see how these seemingly two completely opposing sides come together for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Outside the house they fight and bicker when in actuality they live under the same roof in harmony. Think about all of these observations in terms of dialectics, which are leverage to create a given end. Think about the same people controlling all sides of the dialectic, and why they would want to do this, and what are the outcomes they seek to achieve.

You can begin with a fraud named Carl Menger.. Ever heard of him?? He was the personal tutor of the FASCIST Rudolph Von Habsburg of the FASCIST Austrian Empire. Austerity is Fascism! Those who learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it. We've been down this road too many times.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Menger
See: http://american_almanac.tripod.com/vonhayek.htm

"Say hello to my little friend!"

Many if not most Ron Paul fans may be shocked to find that many of the “libertarian” economists were funded by the William Volker Fund and the Rockefeller Foundation. This can be easily verified from Ron Paul and his sheeps beloved Ludwig von Mises Institute web site.
http://mises.org/

“Many readers may be surprised to learn the extent to which the Graduate Institute and then Mises himself in the years immediately after he came to United States were kept afloat financially through generous grants from the Rockefeller Foundation. In fact, for the first years of Mises’s life in the United States, before his appointment as a visiting professor in the Graduate School of Business Administration at New York University (NYU) in 1945, he was almost totally dependent on annual research grants from the Rockefeller Foundation.” – Richard M. Ebeling, The Life and Works of Ludwig von Misess

Did you know this?? Are you shocked? I was! Just another one of their many secrets. No group of economics/academics can be taken seriously in any way when receiving Rockefeller / big corps funds and cannot be trusted when they tell us what can be and what cannot be sustained. Yes??

Why would the Rockefeller foundation support and fund a group that was all about getting rid of there wealth and power and restoring it back to WE THE PEOPLE?? It's called controlled opposition. When people or groups are threats and actually reveal the secrets of the banksters real power and how nations can get rid of this empire, they don’t receive support and funds, they are not allowed to remain in political power for 30 years. They are removed, there books are suppressed, they and their families are falsely smeared, or worse they are killed. They are the enemy to the empire. There is a good reason why Ron Paul has been in politics since 1976. He is no threat. His policies are no threats.

Just another side of the argument. Bought and paid for by the worst this world has to offer.. You can find more info from the source from Murray Rothbard’s biography of Ludwig von Mises and an article published at the Ludwig von Mises Institute.

It's also worth noting that the Austrian School was funded and nurtured by the Habsburgs. Habsburg also founded and nurtured, along with Joseph Retinger and Sir Colin Gubbins, the Bildeberg Group in 1954. Go figure.
http://www.newschool.edu/nssr/economics/

Today, these traditions are alive and well today thanks to the finance of Rockefeller and wealthy business donors in the name/organization of Ludwig von Mises Institute. Who is it's founder??

"The "Austrian School" (also known as the "Vienna School") emerged around one of the pioneers of the 1871 Marginalist Revolution, Carl Menger (read link above to learn more about Carl Menger) at the University of Vienna. The "First" Generation of the Austrian School was composed of a pair Austrian professors who, although not directly students of Menger, were nonetheless heavily influenced by him: Friedrich von Wieser and Eugen von B hm-Bawerk. It was they who, for the most part, spread the Austrian School gospel throughout the Austro-Hungarian Empire and trained the next two generations. These later generations were dominated by the figures of Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek, with Joseph Schumpeter having departed rather early for more Walrasian pastures. The Austrian School maintained its base in Vienna until the 1930s, when most of its members moved or were exiled to Great Britain and the United States. "

"Already in Wieser and B hm-Bawerk, we find the principal features of Austrian School economics, many of which became clearer and more distinctive in the hands of their students, particularly Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek. "
http://homepage.newschool.edu/~het/schools/austrian.htm

Interesting group of fellas. What was their interest in Austrian School??

“While still a medical resident in the 1960s, Ron Paul was influenced by Friedrich von Hayek's The Road to Serfdom, which caused him to read many publications by Ludwig von Mises and Ayn Rand. He came to know economists Hans Sennholz and Murray Rothbard well, and credits to them his interest in the study of economics.”

Today the Austrian tradition is kept alive by the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a think tank financed entirely by wealthy business donors. It is part of a broader phenomenon, the explosion of far-right think tanks in the last 20 years, funded by such conservative and libertarian donors as the Bradley, Coors and Koch family foundations.

These foundations have poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the creation of an "alternate academia" of right-wing think tanks, after the failure of mainstream academia to support right-wing dogma. This alternate academia comes complete with extensive media ties to publicize their research, which is why Austrians are so frequently found on conservative talk radio. Austrian economist Israel Kirzner describes the critical role that their primary backer, the Foundation for Economic Education (FEE), has played in the "revival" of Austrian economics:

"It was their vision which brought Ludwig von Mises to FEE at a time when he was, to put it mildly, all but ignored on the academic scene. It was through the resources of FEE, its skilled use of the tools of communication and public education, which ensured that Mises' message would survive."

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-ausintro.htm
Israel M. Kirzner, "Fifty Years of FEE--Fifty Years of Progress in Austrian Economics,"

Who was the founder of the Ludwig von Mises institute which is of course financed by Rockefellers and the wealthy???? .. Lew Rockwell!! If this is not troubling than I don't know what is. If one puts in the time it goes way deeper. Lew Rockwell also happened to be Ron Paul's congressional chief of staff from 1978 to 1982, and was a vice president of Ron Paul & Associates, the corporation that published the Ron Paul Political Report and the Ron Paul Survival. That’s right. And it so happens that Ron Paul's mysterious chief ghostwriter was none other than Lew Rockwell. The founder of the Ludwig von Mises institute. Of course Ron Paul denies, denies, denies. He knows perfectly well who the writer was. Why won't Ron Paul just come out and say who wrote those "racist" and "radical" articles?? Well, there is a very, very good reason why Ron Paul has "no idea" who the writer was and why he won't just come out and say it.. He will take that information with him to his grave. Or why doesn't the ghostwriter just come out from hiding? Would it not save Ron Paul Some heart ache? Couldn't the ghostwriter take full responsibility and help Ron? Well, there is a VERY,VERY good reason why the Ghostwriter hasn't come out from hiding. Should i tell? Do the math.


http://reason.com/archives/2008/01/16/w ... newsletter

Yet in interviews with reason, a half-dozen longtime libertarian activists—including some still close to Paul—all named the same man as Paul's chief ghostwriter: Ludwig von Mises Institute founder Llewellyn Rockwell, Jr.

Financial records from 1985 and 2001 show that Rockwell, Paul's congressional chief of staff from 1978 to 1982, was a vice president of Ron Paul & Associates, the corporation that published the Ron Paul Political Report and the Ron Paul Survival Report. The company was dissolved in 2001. During the period when the most incendiary items appeared—roughly 1989 to 1994—Rockwell and the prominent libertarian theorist Murray Rothbard championed an open strategy of exploiting racial and class resentment to build a coalition with populist "paleoconservatives," producing a flurry of articles and manifestos whose racially charged talking points and vocabulary mirrored the controversial Paul newsletters recently unearthed by The New Republic.

Rockwell has denied responsibility for the newsletters' contents to The New Republic's Jamie Kirchick. Rockwell twice declined to discuss the matter with reason, maintaining this week that he had "nothing to say."

But a source close to the Paul presidential campaign told reason that Rockwell authored much of the content of the Political Report and Survival Report. "If Rockwell had any honor he'd come out and I say, ‘I wrote this stuff,'" said the source, who asked not to be named because Paul remains friendly with Rockwell and is reluctant to assign responsibility for the letters.

Rockwell was publicly named as Paul's ghostwriter as far back as a 1988 issue of the now-defunct movement monthly American Libertarian.

The most detailed description of the strategy came in an essay Rothbard wrote for the January 1992 Rothbard-Rockwell Report, titled "Right-Wing Populism: A Strategy for the Paleo Movement." Lamenting that mainstream intellectuals and opinion leaders were too invested in the status quo to be brought around to a libertarian view, Rothbard pointed to David Duke and Joseph McCarthy as models for an "Outreach to the Rednecks," which would fashion a broad libertarian/paleoconservative coalition by targeting the disaffected working and middle classes. (Duke, a former Klansman, was discussed in strikingly similar terms in a 1990 Ron Paul Political Report.)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch1.html

Next time you should do a background check before you put years and all your trust into something that is financed by the very people we call masters and are trying to root out. Don't worry, they fooled me too.

In the Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph has this to say;

“A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it to the world in all it’s soul destroying diabolical horrid colors. For nothing is a greater injury to the children of men then to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God.”

SO, there is nothing that does as much harm as a person who is operating under incorrect principals but they think they are operating correct principals.

Friedrich von Hayek, protégé and colleague of Mises, is one of the founders of the Mont Pelerin Society, with Mises a member for at least 13 years. The Guardian UK explained what and who the Mont Pelerin Society is...

How the neoliberals stitched up the wealth of nations for themselves, A cabal of intellectuals and elitists hijacked the economic debate, and now we are dealing with the catastrophic effects

When the Mont Pelerin Society first met, in 1947, its political project did not have a name. But it knew where it was going. The society's founder, Friedrich von Hayek, remarked that the battle for ideas would take at least a generation to win, but he knew that his intellectual army would attract powerful backers. Its philosophy, which later came to be known as neoliberalism, accorded with the interests of the ultra-rich, so the ultra-rich would pay for it.

Neoliberalism claims that we are best served by maximum market freedom and minimum intervention by the state. The role of government should be confined to creating and defending markets, protecting private property and defending the realm.

This, at any rate, is the theory. But as David Harvey proposes in his book A Brief History of Neoliberalism, wherever the neoliberal programme has been implemented, it has caused a massive shift of wealth not just to the top 1%, but to the top tenth of the top 1%. In the US, for instance, the upper 0.1% has already regained the position it held at the beginning of the 1920s.

The conditions that neoliberalism demands in order to free human beings from the slavery of the state - minimal taxes, the dismantling of public services and social security, deregulation, the breaking of the unions - just happen to be the conditions required to make the elite even richer, while leaving everyone else to sink or swim. In practice the philosophy developed at Mont Pelerin is little but an elaborate disguise for a wealth grab.

The first great advantage the neoliberals possessed was an unceasing fountain of money. US oligarchs and their foundations - Coors, Olin, Scaife, Pew and others - have poured hundreds of millions into setting up thinktanks, founding business schools and transforming university economics departments into bastions of almost totalitarian neoliberal thinking.

The Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institute, the American Enterprise Institute and many others in the US, the Institute of Economic Affairs, the Centre for Policy Studies and the Adam Smith Institute in the UK, were all established to promote this project. Their purpose was to develop the ideas and the language which would mask the real intent of the programme - the restoration of the power of the elite - and package it as a proposal for the betterment of humankind.

Neoliberalism, if unchecked, will catalyse crisis after crisis, all of which can be solved only by greater intervention on the part of the state. In confronting it, we must recognise that we will never be able to mobilise the resources its exponents have been given. But as the disasters they have caused unfold, the public will need ever less persuading that it has been misled.

Here is a statement which shows Ron Pauls true colors.. this article titled "The Beginning of the End of Fiat Money."

“There’s nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency. But a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism, and managed by resurgent militant nationalism."

Unbelievable. Nothing to fear from globalism? free trade? single worldwide currency?? So, their globalism is bad, but Ron Pauls gold-bug free market globalism is good? Just exactly like austerity, it is all horrible unless it’s Ron Paul’s austerity. Would congress have the power to coin and regulate this new world wide currency as Article 1 section 8 states? Hell no! Ron would have the "Free market decide." Just like it is today. What I mean by "free market" is free from government intervention. Exactly what Ron Paul advocates. Ron Paul's "free-market" really means is allowing private financial interests to prey upon the American people free of government intervention.. Just like it does now. We the people have less and less of such intervention in the form of regulations beneficial to the people themselves. The regulations we do have are those beneficial to big corporate financial interests, who themselves promote "free-market" and "free-trade" ideologies.

He continues...

"Efforts to achieve peaceful globalist goals are quickly abandoned when the standard of living drops, unemployment rises, stock markets crash and artificially high wages are challenged by market forces."

What in the hell is he talking about? What "peaceful globalist goals" is Ron Paul referring too? Is he suggesting such a thing exists or is possible? Does he subscribe to these goals himself? Sure sounds like it to me. How come he's not condemning globalism all together? Where does he get this thinking a peaceful globalism will end in results better than any other form of globalism?

He continues...

The effort in recent decades to unify government surveillance over all world trade and international financial transactions through the UN, IMF, World Bank, WTO, ICC, the OECD, and the Bank of International Settlements can never substitute for a peaceful world based on true free trade, freedom of movement, a single but sound market currency, and voluntary contracts with private property rights….

Wait! What is this crap, a "single but sound market currency?" Would this be the same world currency we don't need to fear? Perhaps gold? Yeah, now we can see Ron Paul is in fact some sort of a globalist himself, or at the very least harbors some affection towards a one world view so long as it's under his Austrian School free-market golden ideology. And this is somehow different from the other globalism? Oh, that's right, this is a peaceful globalism. No thanks! I am proud to be an America!

And to add insult to injury he says this garbage..

"The ultimate solution will only come with the rejection of fiat money worldwide, and a restoration of commodity money[/u]. Commodity money if voluntarily and universally accepted could give us a single world currency requiring no money managers, no manipulators orchestrating a man-made business cycle with rampant price inflation.” — Ron Paul, Congressional Record, March 13, 2001
http://www.singleglobalcurrency.org/governments.html

There you have it. Ron Paul does indeed support a global single currency so long as it's golden, and free from any political regulation such as implied in Article 1, Section 8, of the US Constitution, which all his supporters pretend he actually supports.
The power to coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures...

Check out all the Paul Volcker quotes from the source above.

Alan Greenspan, one of the more famous Austrian Gold loving Bankers, wrote in 1966: “An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions.“ You catch that? And he is right. Gold unites them all because like Quigley and Mullins tell us it is there favorite currency. Read more here..
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=338

This is an excelent response by Keith Gardner to someone named Dan McLaughlin. McLaughlin's quote is at the top, followed by Gardner's excellent response.

http://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/author/jeepndesert/

Dan McLaughlin says;
You might actually want to read some of Mises works, because you obviously don’t have the slightest clue about the ideas he put forth.
Adam Smith was certainly one of the great minds in economics, but his absolutely false labor theory of value gave credence and ideological support to Marxist theories.
Most of what Mises said was merely a comprehensive treatment of ideas which incorporated and expanded on those that sprouted in the 1870’s, primarily those of Carl Menger.

Keith Gardner says;
If you can lump Mises with Keynes and Marx, then you certainly don’t understand. Mises is the antidote for Keynes and Marx.
you obviously don’t understand the concept of false left/right paradigm. one false paradigm props up the other paradigm because neither are correct. there is always a perpetual struggle and the congress utilizes myths of both to push towards a marxist state.

a true libertarian paradigm is not acceptable to the international banking cartel.
that is why they deliberately funded and pushed ludwig von mises on the population in the early 1900s, while they instituted the federal reserve and gold standard, usurping the constitution.

the economic theories of ludwig von mises are based on no empirical evidence nor supported with consistent definitions or logic. human action was written as poorly, if not worse with his obfuscating language, than even das kapital. i actually labored through the original propoganda of ludwig von mises. complete trash. anything said of value was already said by uncorrupted men and usually taken out of context. if you actually read ludwig von mises, rather than consume the foundation propaganda on a daily basis, you’d understand why i said “labored” through his work. if i didn’t throw it away, i may still have a copy for you to read if you enjoy torture. i consumed the propoganda on a daily basis from the mises foundations. but i had the intuition to realize there were things which didn’t add up.

they continue to push the gold standard because it is the favorite monetary fraud of tyrants throughout history. bringing back the gold standard would be economically destructive, whereas going on a true colonial scrip, greenback, or continental currency would provide the funding through the monetary expansion needed to end fractional reserve lending in order to eliminate the national debt and end income taxation. the endgame of tyrants is a world gold fiat though a world debt fiat would be acceptable to them as well. they can always switch between debt fiat and gold fiat as one system causes complete economic breakdown, like a false left/right paradigm, pushing the former fraud as the solution to the current fraud.

that is why they also deleted henry george from the american memory even though henry george was america’s best-selling and most influential economist, selling millions world-wide of his self-published economic treatise.

if you ever spent a tenth of the time you spend reading rockefeller foundation funded ludwig von mises and the ludwig von mises institute propaganda, the constant parade of strawman, ad hominem, definition inconsistency, and reducto ad absurbum, by reading and studying henry george, you would see the cat.
you are guilty of what you accuse others. you’re part of the false paradigm and can’t see the truth. that is why the vulgar libertarianism you push has never caught on. it is difficult to be popular when you’re wrong.

you might want to take a look carefully at the libertarian party’s david nolan and the ludwig von mises institute’s robert andelson. both georgists. robert andelson even wrote a text on how academia was corrupted. you might want to look at what people like milton friedman and albert einstein said about henry george. you might want to take a look at mason gaffney and fred foldvary, two georgists who aren’t paid to be silent or obfuscate, like murray rothbard. carl menger, thomas malthus, herbert spencer, max stirner, and ayn rand were dopes too. land, labor, commodities, capital, and currencies are distinct classes of objects.

ending income taxes good. ending land value taxes bad. regulations on financial fraud good. financial fraud bad. ending debt fiat and ending fractional reserve lending good. returning to gold fiat bad. marx bad. keynes bad. mises [feudalism] bad. classic liberalism good. mmmkay?

Eustace Mullins wrote in his book "The World Order, A Study in the Hegemony of Parasitism"

"Hence his [Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England] campaign in favour of completely autonomous central banks, dominating their own financial markets and deriving their power from common agreement among themselves. They would succeed in taking out of the political realm those problems which are essential for the development and prosperity of the national financial security, distribution of credit, movement of prices. They would thus prevent internal political struggles from harming the wealth and the economic advancement of nations."

"In short, Norman wished to see the imposition of the World Order over the financial affairs of the nations. It was this agreement among the central banks, rather than the front organization, the League of Nations, which became their final instrument of power. Crucial to these arrangements was the monetarist school, the Austrian School of Economics, an outgrowth of the Pan-Europe movement."

Go figure.

I believe Jason has posted some good stuff on Murray Rothbard so I wont go into that clown.

Carroll Quigley was an insider, I don't know if you are aware of this but his tell all book (Tragedy and Hope ) was suppressed by the powers that be. Why? Well, it WAS NOT suppressed because he laid out their crimes and history, or because he puts actual names to those behind this secret international cartel but because he revealed what Ron Paul will NEVER EVER tell you. INTEREST and Monopoly of money supply.

Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, Edward Griffin, AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS are all frauds! All apart one a dialect. And that is the truth Loveistruth. And that's my two cents. Not redeemable in gold!

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Fantastic outline Semp....I had started into a response....but you covered it in spades!!! Thank you!!!....I wasn't aware of the Mises early funding by Rockefeller Foundation (lightbulb)...

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

@Semp, I could disassemble your long tirade point by point, but that would take too much time. What I propose instead is that we forget names and labels, but look at fundamental principles instead. And from that will figure out what is good, and what is bad. Are you game? Remember no names (forget Ron Paul, forget Marx, forget Hitler), just principles. Are you game?

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

One more thing, there is nothing wrong with a global currency as long as it is voluntary. Gold and silver, historically have been such global, voluntary currency, because it has intrinsic value that can neither be conjured out of nothing nor manipulated by the government's printing press, and therefore, does not need the coercion of government to be accepted, and because 100% commodity based currencies are the most honest and the most stable currencies known to man. So global, does not automatically means evil. If it is global Liberty, I am all for it. But if it is tyranny, whether global or local, I am against it. Unbaked fiat money is tyranny, because it cannot exist without government coercion, which is precisely the reason it cannot exist when Free Competition in Currencies is present.

Gold and silver, (and in general, 100% commodity based money), is the currency of free people. Unbacked fiat paper is the money of slaves.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

One more thing, there is nothing wrong with a global currency as long as it is voluntary. Gold and silver, historically have been such global, voluntary currency, because it has intrinsic value that can neither be conjured out of nothing nor manipulated by the government's printing press, and therefore, does not need the coercion of government to be accepted, and because 100% commodity based currencies are the most honest and the most stable currencies known to man. So global, does not automatically means evil. If it is global Liberty, I am all for it. But if it is tyranny, whether global or local, I am against it. Unbaked fiat money is tyranny, because it cannot exist without government coercion, which is precisely the reason it cannot exist when Free Competition in Currencies is present.

Gold and silver, (and in general, 100% commodity based money), is the currency of free people. Unbacked fiat paper is the money of slaves.

Barter has been and currently is globally accepted too....doesn't mean its wise (economically sound) to stick with it.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

One more thing, there is nothing wrong with a global currency as long as it is voluntary. Gold and silver, historically have been such global, voluntary currency, because it has intrinsic value that can neither be conjured out of nothing nor manipulated by the government's printing press, and therefore, does not need the coercion of government to be accepted, and because 100% commodity based currencies are the most honest and the most stable currencies known to man. So global, does not automatically means evil. If it is global Liberty, I am all for it. But if it is tyranny, whether global or local, I am against it. Unbaked fiat money is tyranny, because it cannot exist without government coercion, which is precisely the reason it cannot exist when Free Competition in Currencies is present.

Gold and silver, (and in general, 100% commodity based money), is the currency of free people. Unbacked fiat paper is the money of slaves.

Barter has been and currently is globally accepted too....doesn't mean its wise (economically sound) to stick with it.

100% commodity based monetary system is NOT barter. It is a very narrow subset of barter. One or few prevalent (most convenient) commodities, usually gold and silver, become the preferred medium of exchange, so that all other products are sold for that prevalent medium. In case of barter there is no prevalent medium.


And yes, 100% commodity base monetary system is very wise, because it is THE most honest, and THE most stable monetary system known to man. It is the monetary system of a truly Free Market, because it does not require immoral use of government force to operate. It does not require government force for people to accept gold, because it is valuable in itself. Fiat cannot exist without coercion, and therefore is immoral, and is the greatest instrument of plunder ever invented by the mind of man. Paper is the money of the slaves. Gold is the money of free men.

[SempiternalHarbingercaptain of 1,000]

Thank you Jason and No problem! I am just glad you are still around! Not many likeminded people in this world. And yes, the Rockefellers made certain Austrian economics stayed around. Without them it doesn't exist. As Ludwig von Misses institute admits.... Totally Dependent on the Rockefellers. And the Ludwig von Mises Institute is all funded ( millions ) to this day and kept alive by the wealthy. And who is the founder of the Misses institute? Lew Rockwell. But, who cares that it is funded by the Rockefellers and the powers that be. There principal are sound and correct. Right?

What I propose instead is that we forget names and labels, but look at fundamental principles instead. And from that will figure out what is good, and what is bad.

Are we talking fundamental principals or correct principals?? The problem is the fundamental principals they push.... Misses, Austrian economics, Ron Paul ect.. the principals you have bought into are not sound in anyway. What you purpose, your sound principals, are designed to control and sink America. You think they are sound, there not. And how can we even start to talk sound principals when you get you history from wizards of revisionist history? How can we talk, when you have incorrect facts? And when you have incorrect facts, you can in no way have the correct solutions. You don't think in a Ron Paul "free market" that the Goldman sacks of this world who control us today without any government intervention, wont be the very people who set up competing banks and loan us their precious gold at interest? I am starting to wonder who you work for.

Ron Paul is not calling for the restoration of Article 1 section 8. He is calling for Austerity. Do you support Austerity? Turn on your TV and go watch what is going on in Greece and ask your self if forcing Austerity on Greece has worked and if that will work in America. It's called FASCISM! Maybe if you knew what Austrian economics was all about and it's history you would realize that is what you are calling for! Since when is Fascism sound principals. We need to repent, forgive, and restore article 1 section 8. By continuing to attack government you are destroying are only hope to turn this around.

How is it that you believe that 9/11 was an inside job, but buy into the stuff you do? For 9/11 to be an inside job they would have to control EVERYTHING! TV, politicians, our president, newspapers, radio, everything. But for some reason the very group you support, isn't controlled? I would listen to you if you drew on correct history and facts straight. And I am game, but than we would just be repeating what has already been said.

Names don’t matter? who funds organization for specific reasons don’t matter? Control opposition doesn't matter as long as principals are sound? I am all about correct principals. I am also against putting my trust in gold and the arm of flesh! You put you trust in both! You take Austrian economics as gospel and have no problems that the very people who funded and created Austrian economics are the same people who funded the bilderbergs and control America and the world to this day. Fine that's your business. But you are just supporting one segment of Satan’s financial empire. If you have no qualms putting you trust in a group to this day that is financed by the powers that be... fine, more power to you. But I won’t listen to it and would hope no one would either.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

I see you're still around promulgating your broken thesis on the virtue of gold. I have a moment before I head out on a service call, so I'll hack away.

100% commodity based monetary system is NOT barter. It is a very narrow subset of barter.

First you say it's not barter, then you say it is? So, which is it, according to you?

And yes, 100% commodity base monetary system is very wise, because it is THE most honest, and THE most stable monetary system known to man.

Gold can be corrupted just as well as any other system. History has shown that. The BoM teaches that. Why won't you?

It is the monetary system of a truly Free Market, because it does not require immoral use of government force to operate.

Gold is the system of a controlled market. The only system that is truly free and available to everyone, would be one that is equally available to all at the stroke of a pen. And that would by promises to pay. Your system of gold would force me to use gold, when all I would want to do is to freely enter into a contract. Why would you control me so?

It does not require government force for people to accept gold, because it is valuable in itself.

Really sir! You now begin your preposterous and delusional diatribe! Gold is available, but paper continues to be the medium of choice. Do you know why?

Fiat cannot exist without coercion, and therefore is immoral, and is the greatest instrument of plunder ever invented by the mind of man. Paper is the money of the slaves. Gold is the money of free men.

It is the sovereign duty and right of a government to establish they type and value of the money in circulation. Without this, we are back to the dark ages with everyone for themselves, so no, it's not coercion, it's called cooperation. And BTW, if you instituted gold, how would you do that without instituting coercion? Answer is you cannot.

Finally, why are you pushing so hard for a metallic system that has already been proven to be a total failure?

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

I see you're still around promulgating your broken thesis on the virtue of gold. I have a moment before I head out on a service call, so I'll hack away.

I see you're still around promulgating your broken thesis on the virtue and glories of unbacked government forced fiat. I have a moment, so I'll hack away.

100% commodity based monetary system is NOT barter. It is a very narrow subset of barter.

First you say it's not barter, then you say it is? So, which is it, according to you?

Really? You don't do English very well? Barter is when you exchange commodities for commodities directly without converting them into a common medium of exchange first. It is cumbersome and impractical in a developed economy. A 100% commodity based monetary system, like gold or silver, identifies a commodity most convenient to become a COMMON medium of exchange, making that commodity the preferred money, thus simplifying exchanges as all other commodities and products are priced in that money. Thus 100% commodity based monetary system is not the definition of barter, but a very narrow subset of barter. Kind of like Star Wars is not Movies, but a very narrow subset of movies. I can't believe I have to explain it! Learn to read, man!

And yes, 100% commodity based monetary system is very wise, because it is THE most honest, and THE most stable monetary system known to man.

Gold can be corrupted just as well as any other system.

Wrong! Paper fiat is INFINITELY easier to corrupt than a 100% commodity based system like gold. Which is easier, to produce $1 trillion out of nothing in computer 0's and 1's (like the Fed did recently to bail out their buddies), or to produce it out of nothing, in thousands of tons of gold bullion? One is INFINITELY easier than the other. So you are dead wrong about that! It is the same as to argue that it is as easy to walk through a locked door, as through unlocked one. If that's the case, I suggest you remove all locks from your house (according to you it makes no difference anyway). Good luck with that.

Gold is the system of a controlled market. The only system that is truly free and available to everyone, would be one that is equally available to all at the stroke of a pen.

Money must not be free. It defeats their purpose as a store and protector of value. Promises to pay are NOT money. They are promises to pay money. But what is money? More promises? No. It has to be something real, having real value that cannot be conjured out of nothing at a whim. Thus gold is money; silver is money, etc. Promises to pay, say you. To pay what? More promises? No! Money is not promises. It has to be something real. Otherwise you end up with infinite fraud that we now have, with legalized counterfeiting.

And that would by promises to pay.

To pay what? More promises?

Your system of gold would force me to use gold, when all I would want to do is to freely enter into a contract. Why would you control me so?

I would not control you so. My system is freedom. You are free to transact in anything you like, or enter in any contract you like. But so is everyone else. And I assure you, absent government coercion, most people will prefer real money like gold and silver to your "promises" to pay no one knows what. So you are free; but so everyone else. And history shows that in a truly Free (un-coerced) Market, people largely will NOT accept your "promises," instead they will demand gold, silver, or the like. So I will not compel you, but Free Market will (that is if you want to eat).

It does not require government force for people to accept gold, because it is valuable in itself.

Really sir! You now begin your preposterous and delusional diatribe! Gold is available, but paper continues to be the medium of choice. Do you know why?

Yes, I know why. Because of government FORCE, imposing TAXES on EVERY gold transaction. It's like going to the bank to change $5 into quarters and paying a sales tax for it! Remove this FORCE, by removing this transaction tax, and people will transact in gold!

Fiat cannot exist without coercion, and therefore is immoral, and is the greatest instrument of plunder ever invented by the mind of man. Paper is the money of the slaves. Gold is the money of free men.

It is the sovereign duty and right of a government to establish they type and value of the money in circulation.

Wrong. Government is not sovereign. The people are. It is the duty of government to leave people alone and allow them to do with their property whatever they will, as long as they do not violate the property of another.

Without this, we are back to the dark ages with everyone for themselves,

Your understanding of Free Market is woefully lacking. "Everyone for themselves" is the very engine of progress. People will cooperate VOLUNTARY. It is the principle of Nonaggression,--the basis of Liberty. Look it up.

so no, it's not coercion, it's called cooperation.

Cooperation at the point of a gun? Try not paying taxes, or transacting in gold without paying taxes on gold transactions, and you will see.

And BTW, if you instituted gold, how would you do that without instituting coercion?

I will NOT institute gold. Free Market will institute gold (and silver) as the preferred medium of exchange, because such a 100% commodity based monetary system is the most stable and the most honest known to man. History shows, that overwhelmingly, when people are free to transact in whatever they want, without government coercing them, they transact in gold, silver or some other commodity. Therefore commodity based money is the money of Free People.

Finally, why are you pushing so hard for a metallic system that has already been proven to be a total failure?

Government coercion was proven a total failure. I push not a metallic system, but freedom. Free Market pushes a metallic system, because that's what people prefer absent government coercion.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

I see you're still around promulgating your broken thesis on the virtue and glories of unbacked government forced fiat. I have a moment, so I'll hack away.

Well you're off to a bad start. Either your memory is bad, or you are deliberately maligning me. The thesis I promulgate is not mine, but belongs to mathematics. You further misrepresent the situation by saying I support "force", all the while you want a return to gold, which is something neither I nor many others want, which would mean your method of gold could only take hold if it were forced on me -- by the government. And the fiat I am advocating is not government fiat, but the fiat of the people -- the ability of the individual to contract with whomever they will.

Really? You don't do English very well? Barter is when you exchange commodities for commodities directly without converting them into a common medium of exchange first. It is cumbersome and impractical in a developed economy. A 100% commodity based monetary system, like gold or silver, identifies a commodity most convenient to become a COMMON medium of exchange, making that commodity the preferred money, thus simplifying exchanges as all other commodities and products are priced in that money. Thus 100% commodity based monetary system is not the definition of barter, but a very narrow subset of barter. Kind of like Star Wars is not Movies, but a very narrow subset of movies. I can't believe I have to explain it! Learn to read, man!

I can read. You said "commodity based monetary system is NOT barter ..... It is ... barter." Same sentence. I will skip the hubris: can you?

Wrong! Paper fiat is INFINITELY easier to corrupt than a 100% commodity based system like gold. Which is easier, to produce $1 trillion out of nothing in computer 0's and 1's (like the Fed did recently to bail out their buddies), or to produce it out of nothing, in thousands of tons of gold bullion? One is INFINITELY easier than the other. So you are dead wrong about that! It is the same as to argue that it is as easy to walk through a locked door, as through unlocked one. If that's the case, I suggest you remove all locks from your house (according to you it makes no difference anyway). Good luck with that.

Honest men could sustain fiat as well as gold, either way, gold is no hedge against corruption and never has been. Satan likes gold, he's spend a few millennia buying armies and navies with it. It is his weapon of choice. It is his power in this world, but not the source of that power. Do you know what the source of his power is?

Money must not be free. It defeats their purpose as a store and protector of value. Promises to pay are NOT money. They are promises to pay money. But what is money? More promises? No. It has to be something real, having real value that cannot be conjured out of nothing at a whim. Thus gold is money; silver is money, etc. Promises to pay, say you. To pay what? More promises? No! Money is not promises. It has to be something real. Otherwise you end up with infinite fraud that we now have, with legalized counterfeiting.

You are on your way to my way of thinking and you don't even know it. Money is not free! Fiat money is not free! Whatever gave you that wrong idea? And no, money need not have intrinsic value, but it might. And at the heart of a gold system is not the gold itself -- because no gold system traffics in gold, but in notes, but the PROMISE to redeem those notes exists , but redeem it for ..... what? But wait! You do not favour a system founded in "promises", do you?

To pay what? More promises?

No, to return what was borrowed, and that can only happen through paid work, "by the sweat of your brow".

I would not control you so. My system is freedom. You are free to transact in anything you like, or enter in any contract you like. But so is everyone else. And I assure you, absent government coercion, most people will prefer real money like gold and silver to your "promises" to pay no one knows what. So you are free; but so everyone else. And history shows that in a truly Free (un-coerced) Market, people largely will NOT accept your "promises," instead they will demand gold, silver, or the like. So I will not compel you, but Free Market will (that is if you want to eat).

Sorry, but I've been at this more than a decade. When the situation is explained to folks, they normally side with my point of view, not gold, but gold isn't dismissed because gold is flawed, it is dismissed because it doesn't deal with interest.

Yes, I know why. Because of government FORCE, imposing TAXES on EVERY gold transaction. It's like going to the bank to change $5 into quarters and paying a sales tax for it! Remove this FORCE, by removing this transaction tax, and people will transact in gold!

But why then is the government imposing ever escalating taxes in the first place? What is driving that?

Wrong. Government is not sovereign. The people are. It is the duty of government to leave people alone and allow them to do with their property whatever they will, as long as they do not violate the property of another.

The government's sovereign duty is not to impose a fiat system, but to impose a level playing field. They do that by providing a currency that everyone can participate in, equally. Not to favor the guy with a gold mine, or the guy with a silver mine, but the guy with a pen and paper and an ability and commitment to work. The government has the sacred and solemn duty to provide a way for that honest man to monetize his future labor now, and there is nothing wrong with that. Unencumbered, and unadulterated.

Your understanding of Free Market is woefully lacking. "Everyone for themselves" is the very engine of progress. People will cooperate VOLUNTARY. It is the principle of Nonaggression,--the basis of Liberty. Look it up.

Free Market is literally what I have described. You have to divorce yourself from the doctrine taught and loved and dictated by the very banksters you pretend to set yourself up against, or you will never see what I am talking about. After all this time, you are still confusing "compound interest based governement fiat" with "fiat of the people -- the peoples own promises to pay".

I will NOT institute gold. Free Market will institute gold (and silver) as the preferred medium of exchange, because such a 100% commodity based monetary system is the most stable and the most honest known to man. History shows, that overwhelmingly, when people are free to transact in whatever they want, without government coercing them, they transact in gold, silver or some other commodity. Therefore commodity based money is the money of Free People.

Your country already tried gold, and it failed. You need to step back and ask yourself: why?

Government coercion was proven a total failure. I push not a metallic system, but freedom. Free Market pushes a metallic system, because that's what people prefer absent government coercion.

You Americans are so funny. You think the world revolves around you. Sorry, but there is more going on that the Fed, more going on outside your borders. The depression of the 30's involved a lot more countries than the US. The fact you have never addressed is that the depression of the 30's was prolonged and deepened by INTERNATIONAL BANKSTERS who REFUSED to let the gold standard go. Do I need to repeat that? They LOVED GOLD! And yet, they were forced to abandon gold, and this brings us to the next point you have yet to address: why?

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

You further misrepresent the situation by saying I support "force", all the while you want a return to gold, which is something neither I nor many others want, which would mean your method of gold could only take hold if it were forced on me -- by the government.

Free Market prefers 100% commodity based money like gold and silver. Unbacked fiat paper can only exist via government coercion. So I will not force you, but when free market operates people will freely demand gold and silver as preferred payment for goods and services. So if you want to eat you will have to come up with gold or silver. No government force required.

And the fiat I am advocating is not government fiat, but the fiat of the people -- the ability of the individual to contract with whomever they will.

I assure you, you are free to "contract" with whomsoever you will in a free market, however very few people will accept your "promises to pay" instead of real money, i.e. gold, silver or some other REAL commodity. Why? Because 100% commodity based monetary system is the most honest and the most stable currency known to man. Most people will NOT accept your "promises" they will demand gold and silver.

gold is no hedge against corruption and never has been.

In that case locks on your house are not "hedge against corruption" either. So I encourage you to remove all locks from your home and from your cars; it makes no difference after all. Right? I say it again. It is infinitely easier to legally counterfeit in computer 0's and 1's then in thousands of tons of pure gold. The difference in ease of one over the other is INFINITE!

Satan likes gold, he's spend a few millennia buying armies and navies with it.

He likes paper even more. This is why the world is awash with paper money right now. It allows banksters and governments to plunder the people so much the easier, because again it is INFINITELY easier to legally counterfeit in paper (or electronic 0's and 1's) than in gold. INFINITELY. It's like the difference between walking through a locked door verses unlocked. You can do both, but one is MUCH, MUCH easier than the other!

It is his power in this world, but not the source of that power. Do you know what the source of his power is?

Yes. Ignorance, wickedness, and sheer stupidity of many people.

Your country already tried gold, and it failed. You need to step back and ask yourself: why?

Because of government interference. Did you forget that Roosevelt confiscated peoples gold and would send to prison anyone who would transact in it?

The fact you have never addressed is that the depression of the 30's was prolonged and deepened by INTERNATIONAL BANKSTERS who REFUSED to let the gold standard go.

You fell for their lie line, hook and sinker! Thankfully simple logic refutes this lie in a hurry.

They LOVED GOLD!

Yes, they LOVE GOLD for THEMSELVES, not for the people. That's why they are stockpiling it, while imprisoning anyone who tries to transact in gold instead of FRN's.

And yet, they were forced to abandon gold, and this brings us to the next point you have yet to address: why?

They pretended being "forced," they wanted it all along. This is why the world runs on paper now (off a cliff, I might add), while they who try to transact in gold and silver are persecuted and thrown in prison. Will you deny that too?


Gold + Silver + Righteousness = Liberty
Paper = Tyranny.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

Free Market prefers 100% commodity based money like gold and silver. Unbacked fiat paper can only exist via government coercion. So I will not force you, but when free market operates people will freely demand gold and silver as preferred payment for goods and services. So if you want to eat you will have to come up with gold or silver. No government force required.

A free market does not prefer anything since a free market is not a person. There is no such thing as unbacked fiat. People do not care for gold or silver or fiat. The only want to be treated fairly, with a currency they are confident will be accepted in the future. That is the role of money.

I assure you, you are free to "contract" with whomsoever you will in a free market, however very few people will accept your "promises to pay" instead of real money, i.e. gold, silver or some other REAL commodity. Why? Because 100% commodity based monetary system is the most honest and the most stable currency known to man. Most people will NOT accept your "promises" they will demand gold and silver.

Nobody will accept my promises to pay, but when I and everyone else monetize that promise at the same place, we will all accept each other's promises quite readily. You keep repeating your "honest" money song, but there is nothing dishonest about taking a loan, interest free, and promising to work hard to pay it back later.

In that case locks on your house are not "hedge against corruption" either. So I encourage you to remove all locks from your home and from your cars; it makes no difference after all. Right? I say it again. It is infinitely easier to legally counterfeit in computer 0's and 1's then in thousands of tons of pure gold. The difference in ease of one over the other is INFINITE!

Wo, kill the hyperbole and stick to the boring facts. I never said MPE was immune from corruption: there will always be dishonest people. But to start with an honest system? That would be a change. And no, it is no counterfeit to promise to pay. Life is full of pledges and fulfillment, promises and contracts and oaths. These are not evil.

He likes paper even more. This is why the world is awash with paper money right now. It allows banksters and governments to plunder the people so much the easier, because again it is INFINITELY easier to legally counterfeit in paper (or electronic 0's and 1's) than in gold. INFINITELY. It's like the difference between walking through a locked door verses unlocked. You can do both, but one is MUCH, MUCH easier than the other!

He likes any system that is corrupted and unfair. Which leads us back to why gold failed: it wasn't the fact gold was used that killed gold, and it isn't paper that is killing the system now. It's a shame you haven't picked up on that by now, but Ron Paul, your master, he hasn't figured it out either. He's been invited to discuss this on several occasions, but has declined. You may wonder why, but I know why. And no, it is no easier to corrupt a gold system than a paper system, especially a gold system that would start off today as a fractional reserve system because it would have to. We'd be halfway to hell right off the bat.

Yes. Ignorance, wickedness, and sheer stupidity of many people.

Actually Alma defines it for us:

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

You yourself have progressed where you know there is a problem, but you have halted where I was 9 years ago. I used to be a gold bug, but I kept learning and with my engineering mind, I just couldn't ignore the problems created by resorting to a gold system (again). Hence: PFMPE People for Mathematical Perfect Economy.

Because of government interference. Did you forget that Roosevelt confiscated peoples gold and would send to prison anyone who would transact in it?

There goes your American tunnel vision again. Brother, did Roosevelt have control over Canada, or France, or the UK? No, then if not, look for a different reason because the answer you just gave is not correct.

You fell for their lie line, hook and sinker! Thankfully simple logic refutes this lie in a hurry.

Um. I'm just relating history here. No need for theory here, this is history.

Yes, they LOVE GOLD for THEMSELVES, not for the people. That's why they are stockpiling it, while imprisoning anyone who tries to transact in gold instead of FRN's.

You don't get it. As the ship goes down, so do they. They wouldn't get off the gold ship until they say they needed to, then on to the paper ship they went. But gold has failed, now paper has failed. If you have any intelligence left, you tell me what the common denominator is.

They pretended being "forced," they wanted it all along. This is why the world runs on paper now (off a cliff, I might add), while they who try to transact in gold and silver are persecuted and thrown in prison. Will you deny that too?

I've read a lot of theory on money, history of money, but the answers you are coming up with I've never read before. Are you just making this up? "Pretending" to be forced? Is that your best answer? Were they pretending to be rich before, but now the bottom falls out, and they pretend to be hurting?

Gold + Silver + Righteousness = Liberty
Paper = Tyranny.

Yea, we all know you love gold. But how about answering the parts you conveniently left out? (which seems to be a special tactic of yours)

Here are some of your perpetual and chronic misrepresentations and my points you overlooked (I can't say why), which I'll just restate in no particular order:

1. Fiat is not free. It is just as hard to get as gold would be.
2. Gold bugs never address the issue of compound interest, that it will kill a gold system faster than it would paper. The reason is, the Austrian is the most common gold bug, and Austrians love compound interest.
3. It is interest that drives ever escalating taxes (and everything else as well). Printing money is not a cause, but a response to a need for more money to cover what is required to be paid back in terms of principal + interest. Gold cannot even start to keep up with compound interest inflation. But paper can for a while, so paper systems last longer, but that does not make them inherently evil, as all gold bugs think it is.
4. It is the sovereign duty of the government to hold sacred any duties that have been devolved to it by the people, and this can include sanitation, water supply, money supply, and law enforcement and the courts. These are things that can and should be handed to the state to handle for the common good.
5. What is an honest money system? If a bank loans you $10 backed in gold, and asks you to bring $11 back (10 principle + 1 interest), is that honest? If everyone is asked to do the same, and they are, is that honest? Can everyone fulfill their obligation? You do the math. On the other hand, if a bank lends you $11 backed by nothing but faith in your good name and good credit, and you are required to return $11 the same bank as is everyone else, can you do it? Is that honest? Is it possible?

You do the math, and you tell me which is honest, and which else never can be.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

A free market does not prefer anything since a free market is not a person.

You are wrong on that. Will you also claim that free market does not prefer dial tone telephones to rotary ones? Both are available. Flat screens to CRT tubes? iPod to Zune? etc, etc.?
Both are available, but on only one takes the major portion of the market because PEOPLE, on mass, prefer one over the other! So don't give me "market does not prefer" bunk! It is ludicrous! If Free Market does not prefer anything, then it does not exist, because PREFERENCE is the very engine that makes it work! Unbelievable! I don't even know who I am talking to! Next you will say PEOPLE do not exist either, and they don't prefer anything!

There is no such thing as unbacked fiat.

Yeah? Would you then care to say EXACTLY what FRN is backed by (except government force). I don't want nebulous banker trash like "It is backed by all the products in the economy" nonsense, which means exactly nothing because you can always print more and dilute its value, which means its value is determined by the whim of the one controlling the printing press. I want an EXACT definition of what EXACTLY FRN is backed by, other then the whims of the banksters.

People do not care for gold or silver or fiat.

Only because of government force that FORCED fiat upon people. Remove that immoral force of a plundering government, or debauch the paper "dollar" by overprinting, then they will care very much!

The only want to be treated fairly, with a currency they are confident will be accepted in the future. That is the role of money.

Yes, and 100% commodity base currency is the most honest and THE MOST stable monetary system known to man. Nothing more stable was yet invented. (Dispute that).

Nobody will accept my promises to pay, but when I and everyone else monetize that promise at the same place,

And why would the same people who, according to you, will NOT accept your promises to pay, will all over sudden accept these same promises after they are "monetized?!" Isn't this the same promise they didn't trust to begin with? Now you obfuscate that fact by "monetizing" THIS SAME PROMISE they didn't trust, and it becomes OK? You think truly like a conniving bankster! Congratulations! And why would "everyone else" want to monetize their worthless and/or unstable promises "at the same place?" Will you force them? What if they don't agree and prefer gold and silver that DOES NOT DEPEND on your coming through with your promises? Absent government coercion, this is EXACTLY what will happen. People will prefer REAL tangible thing like gold and silver, to your unstable "promises" to pay no one knows what! This is WHY 100% commodity based currency IS THE MOST STABLE monetary system known to man, because it does not depend on anyone fulfilling his "promises." And THIS what people will OVERWHELMINGLY prefer, absent government coercion.

we will all accept each other's promises quite readily.

I won't, and so the VAST MAJORITY of people. (You know that thing called "Free Market.")

You keep repeating your "honest" money song, but there is nothing dishonest about taking a loan, interest free, and promising to work hard to pay it back later.

No, but it is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS STABLE than gold, silver or any other commodity chosen as a medium of exchange. 6,000 years of history teach that.

And no, it is no counterfeit to promise to pay.

To pay exactly WHAT? Another promise?

Life is full of pledges and fulfillment, promises and contracts and oaths. These are not evil.

No they are not, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY less stable as a currency than REAL gold, silver, or another commodity. This is why 100% commodity based currency is always, overwhelmingly preferred by a Free Market, because it is the MOST stable monetary system known to man, and the least susceptible (not I didn't say not susceptible, but the least susceptible) to fraud and manipulation.

Which leads us back to why gold failed:

Gold did NOT fail, it was outlawed by FORCE of corrupt law, and by FORCE of taxation. Remove that immoral FORCE, and it will be used again.

I just couldn't ignore the problems created by resorting to a gold system

I want to restore FREEDOM. Let people transact, unmolested, in whatever they will. If it is gold and silver (as I believe it predominantly will) so be it. People SHOULD have a right to transact in whatever they will IF they are truly free! (Dispute that).

Because of government interference. Did you forget that Roosevelt confiscated peoples gold and would send to prison anyone who would transact in it?

There goes your American tunnel vision again. Brother, did Roosevelt have control over Canada, or France, or the UK?

No, he didn't. But they banksters who controlled him did. Try transacting in pieces of gold or pieces of silver without paying transaction fees on precious metals in any of these countries, and see how long you can stay out of jail. The same immoral FORCE exists all over the world. The banksters want you transacting only in their paper, so they can so much the easier rob you via legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Get it?

Um. I'm just relating history here. No need for theory here, this is history.

Who's "version" of history? Banksters? How about a little reason?

But gold has failed, now paper has failed.

One more time. Gold did not fail it was outlawed by FORCE of corrupt law, and by FORCE of taxation. Gold "failed" for banksters, because it tied their hands from plundering people so much the easier with paper. But it did not fail for the people. It was outlawed for the benefit of the banksters. Because gold (and silver) are the great protectors of property rights. They prevent the banksters from confiscating people's property via legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

They pretended being "forced," they wanted it all along. This is why the world runs on paper now (off a cliff, I might add), while they who try to transact in gold and silver are persecuted and thrown in prison. Will you deny that too?

I've read a lot of theory on money, history of money, but the answers you are coming up with I've never read before. Are you just making this up? "Pretending" to be forced?

Nop. I am not making this up. Read about the creation of Federal Reserve, for instance, they PRETENDED to oppose it, even though THEY have written the law. They did it to trick the public into thinking that it undermined their power. These people are smart. Surprised?

Were they pretending to be rich before, but now the bottom falls out, and they pretend to be hurting?

They are consolidating smaller banks into larger banks. They are concentrating power in fewer and fewer hands. This is not new.

Gold + Silver + Righteousness = Liberty
Paper = Tyranny.

Yea, we all know you love gold.

I love FREEDOM. You love coercion. That is the difference between us.

Here are some of your perpetual and chronic misrepresentations and my points you overlooked (I can't say why), which I'll just restate in no particular order:

1. Fiat is not free. It is just as hard to get as gold would be.

Keep dreaming. Which is easier, to punch 12 zeroes on a computer, or to mine thousands of tons of gold?

2. Gold bugs never address the issue of compound interest, that it will kill a gold system faster than it would paper.

You are wrong. It is the other way around: Gold system kills compound interest counterfeiting system much faster than paper. That is why they HATE gold in the hands of the people. That is why they outlawed and tax its use.

3. It is interest that drives ever escalating taxes (and everything else as well). Printing money is not a cause, but a response to a need for more money to cover what is required to be paid back in terms of principal + interest. Gold cannot even start to keep up with compound interest inflation. But paper can for a while, so paper systems last longer,

You just proved my point. See answer to (2).

4. It is the sovereign duty of the government to hold sacred any duties that have been devolved to it by the people, and this can include sanitation, water supply, money supply, and law enforcement and the courts. These are things that can and should be handed to the state to handle for the common good.

False. The only proper role of government is to manage public property. Everything else can be done much better by private actors. (See State or Private-Law Society.)

5. What is an honest money system? If a bank loans you $10 backed in gold, and asks you to bring $11 back (10 principle + 1 interest), is that honest?

Yep. You pay for the use that they gave you, that they did not have for that time. It is reasonable. If this is a voluntary contract it is valid. But the "contracts" the government makes in our names, when it borrows with interest, are invalid because we did not personally consent to that.

If everyone is asked to do the same, and they are, is that honest?

If it is voluntary, Yes.

Can everyone fulfill their obligation? You do the math.

Yes, because under gold system NOT all money is debt. And if they can't pay they should go bankrupt, so they will not make such fullish contracts in the future.

On the other hand, if a bank lends you $11 backed by nothing but faith in your good name and good credit, and you are required to return $11 the same bank as is everyone else, can you do it? Is that honest? Is it possible?

It is possible but inherently unstable, because defaults are likely to leave extra money in circulation. Plus, the ease of legally counterfeiting will prove too tempting to the banksters as history shows. Physical delivery of metal is the ultimate check on the scheming banksters. Again, it is the difference in walking through unlocked door, verses a locked door.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

You are wrong on that. Will you also claim that free market does not prefer dial tone telephones to rotary ones? Both are available. Flat screens to CRT tubes? iPod to Zune? etc, etc.?
Both are available, but on only one takes the major portion of the market because PEOPLE, on mass, prefer one over the other! So don't give me "market does not prefer" bunk! It is ludicrous! If Free Market does not prefer anything, then it does not exist, because PREFERENCE is the very engine that makes it work! Unbelievable! I don't even know who I am talking to! Next you will say PEOPLE do not exist either, and they don't prefer anything!

Just pointing out that the market is not a person, does not have feelings, and cannot make decisions. People can do all that though, and groups of people make decisions that can be estimated, but not predicted all to accurately. My point is to draw attention to the difference between economy and mathematics. Economy is all about theory (none of which have been proven), opinions, and the management animation of the inanimate, while the mathematical descriptions are just a machine, which allow the free human in the market to maintain his identity.

Yeah? Would you then care to say EXACTLY what FRN is backed by (except government force). I don't want nebulous banker trash like "It is backed by all the products in the economy" nonsense, which means exactly nothing because you can always print more and dilute its value, which means its value is determined by the whim of the one controlling the printing press. I want an EXACT definition of what EXACTLY FRN is backed by, other then the whims of the banksters.

You Americans are so funny, you think the world revolves around you. As if we here in Canada are concerned about your FRN's. We have our money supply, which is generated by the pen of the borrower. Yours are generated the same way, by a pen. The pen is held by a human being at some point, and while that is what creates the loan, it is not what backs it. I've led you to the water, but will you drink? Now what backs the loan the borrower has created, which is monetized by the bank?

Only because of government force that FORCED fiat upon people. Remove that immoral force of a plundering government, or debauch the paper "dollar" by overprinting, then they will care very much!

Aha, overprinting? Why would the government overprint? Why credit cards? Why ever increasing debt? All because we use paper? But sir, this happened just the same while you were on the gold standard. So what is the common denominator?

Yes, and 100% commodity base currency is the most honest and THE MOST stable monetary system known to man. Nothing more stable was yet invented. (Dispute that).

Your hyperbole = stable and honest, my history = a controlled system subject to destruction at the hands of the real villain -- compound interest.

And why would the same people who, according to you, will NOT accept your promises to pay, will all over sudden accept these same promises after they are "monetized?!" Isn't this the same promise they didn't trust to begin with? Now you obfuscate that fact by "monetizing" THIS SAME PROMISE they didn't trust, and it becomes OK? You think truly like a conniving bankster! Congratulations! And why would "everyone else" want to monetize their worthless and/or unstable promises "at the same place?" Will you force them? What if they don't agree and prefer gold and silver that DOES NOT DEPEND on your coming through with your promises? Absent government coercion, this is EXACTLY what will happen. People will prefer REAL tangible thing like gold and silver, to your unstable "promises" to pay no one knows what! This is WHY 100% commodity based currency IS THE MOST STABLE monetary system known to man, because it does not depend on anyone fulfilling his "promises." And THIS what people will OVERWHELMINGLY prefer, absent government coercion.

You are worrying me now. You are arguing against yourself. Whether the money is paper or paper backed by gold, it still has to be monetized by the bank because we don't traffic in gold or silver, or private notes. I can't believe we're back to square one here.

I won't, and so the VAST MAJORITY of people. (You know that thing called "Free Market.")

But you will and you do. Your whole day today will be filled with contracts and commercial activities of all kinds. To suddenly say you aren't in contracting with other honest men to pay for honest work sets you in a special ward all by yourself.

No, but it is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS STABLE than gold, silver or any other commodity chosen as a medium of exchange. 6,000 years of history teach that.

What destablized gold? What destablized paper? Two systems, one failed, one failing. What is the common denominator?

To pay exactly WHAT? Another promise?

It's reciprocal, money is created and destroyed. Loans create it, discharging that debt destroys it, and the medium of creation is also the medium of destruction. You want gold, I say it is not necessary, and in fact is already controlled by the bad guys, so we need not go there. I say we do as the lord says: "Yea yea", "nay nay", and whatsoever is more or less than this cometh of evil.

No they are not, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY less stable as a currency than REAL gold, silver, or another commodity. This is why 100% commodity based currency is always, overwhelmingly preferred by a Free Market, because it is the MOST stable monetary system known to man, and the least susceptible (not I didn't say not susceptible, but the least susceptible) to fraud and manipulation.

Fraud and manipulation, yes, but why? Why MUST they meddle? Get to the root of the problem man!

Gold did NOT fail, it was outlawed by FORCE of corrupt law, and by FORCE of taxation. Remove that immoral FORCE, and it will be used again.

Oh brother. Gold failed, that is the history. From 1918-1922, Lloyd George attempted to deflate prices to get back on the gold standard, for that is what is required to do that. Such action was "fatal to prosperity and the domestic order. Unemployment and strikes increased, especially in the gold mines" (Tragedy and Hope p.485) Furthermore, the "Conservatives in England took office with Winston Churchill as Chancellor of the Exchequer who carried out the stabilization policy which put England on the gold standard with the pound sterling at the prewar rate of parity. As we have indicated in Chapter 7, this policy of deflation drove Britain into an economic depression and a period of labor conflict, and the policy was so bungled in its execution that Britain was doomed to semidepression for almost a decade, was in financial subjection to France until September 1931, and was driven closer to domestic rebellion than she had been at any time sinced the Chartist movement of 1848. " (Tragedy and Hope p. 486) Gold was also the choice of Stalin in Russia. As for England, their crisis of 1931 culminated in their abandonment of gold in September, benefitting their country because of the unfair difference in value between sterling and gold, for example, sandbagging France with 60 million in sterling. This crisis was matched by the American crisis of 1933, which included gold hoarding, not circulating as you suggest, which compounded the ecnomic problems at the time, which precipitaed the collapse of various American financial institutions. Both London and Washington left gold unwillingly, forced out by economic factors. What followed was a policy of manipulation of everything, with treasuries buying and selling in order to control prices and attempt to maintain control. And this sir, is just a smidgen of the real way of life when people are stupid enough to accept any monetary standard that keeps something with intrinsic value that is in short supply as it's medium of exchange. There is a great treatise on gold in Quigley's book, you should read it, it's buried somewhere between page 1 and 1311. Others agree, including Barry Eichengreen who teaches that the gold standard prolonged and deepened the depression, and even Milton Friedmann who called the actions of the governments "very destructive".

I want to restore FREEDOM. Let people transact, unmolested, in whatever they will. If it is gold and silver (as I believe it predominantly will) so be it. People SHOULD have a right to transact in whatever they will IF they are truly free! (Dispute that).

You will notice that I have never said you would not be able to transact in gold. You would be able to, but it would not be the medium of exchange of the country. That would be the domain of the people, not the holders of the gold.

Because of government interference. Did you forget that Roosevelt confiscated peoples gold and would send to prison anyone who would transact in it?

You are confusing history. Gold was abandonned before it was confiscated, and the confiscation was only in the US, not in all the other countries that also abandonned gold. Stop tunnel thinking!

No, he didn't. But they banksters who controlled him did. Try transacting in pieces of gold or pieces of silver without paying transaction fees on precious metals in any of these countries, and see how long you can stay out of jail. The same immoral FORCE exists all over the world. The banksters want you transacting only in their paper, so they can so much the easier rob you via legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Get it?

It is not as simple as that. These guys are ruthless and would eat their own kids. They spend as much time warring as much among themselves as they do against us, and they don't even see it as us against them, but rather "them helping us" And no, you saying "their paper" just shows you how much you still haven't been listening. Consider that Lincoln produced paper and was assassinated because it wasn't "their paper", and JFK was offed for the same reason, and you see just how much they are concerned about the real answer getting out. As for Ron Paul, they don't want him because he threatens them, but because he threatens the economic survival of the planet, because as we have seen in England and elsewhere, the deflationary policies that would need to occur for him to implement gold would be so harsh as to destroy the economy in 30 days or less. You want riots in the streets? Go gold. You want economic prosperity and fairness? Give the people a pen and paper (already got that), and abolish compound interest, so let's just abolish compound interest.

Who's "version" of history? Banksters? How about a little reason?

You a fan of Alex Jones? How about Ron Paul? How about Skousen? Their ideas sprouted, directly or indirectly, through the a book written by the only insider to ever squeal about what is really going on. That book was suppressed and still is. So yes, they are concerned about folks like me convincing folks like you as to what is the real problem here, and what is the real solution.

One more time. Gold did not fail it was outlawed by FORCE of corrupt law, and by FORCE of taxation. Gold "failed" for banksters, because it tied their hands from plundering people so much the easier with paper. But it did not fail for the people. It was outlawed for the benefit of the banksters. Because gold (and silver) are the great protectors of property rights. They prevent the banksters from confiscating people's property via legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

I've already given enough real references to show it did fail, and badly so. It's universally accepted among historians and economists, which is one point I agree with them on though I agree with little else they do say.

Nop. I am not making this up. Read about the creation of Federal Reserve, for instance, they PRETENDED to oppose it, even though THEY have written the law. They did it to trick the public into thinking that it undermined their power. These people are smart. Surprised?

Fed reserve was pre end of the gold standard, you have history backwards.

They are consolidating smaller banks into larger banks. They are concentrating power in fewer and fewer hands. This is not new.

And what mechanism consolidates power? Does gold? No. Does compound interest? Yes. So what is the problem? And what is the solution?

I love FREEDOM. You love coercion. That is the difference between us.

I love truth, that comes before liberty. And now you're back to libel, so if you will, bring out the coercive quotes from me, or retract your comment, or not, and I'll file a complaint with the admins for libel.

Keep dreaming. Which is easier, to punch 12 zeroes on a computer, or to mine thousands of tons of gold?

Fool. It is not the ease of the creation of the loan, but the difficulty in paying it back that restrains it's abuse.

You are wrong. It is the other way around: Gold system kills compound interest counterfeiting system much faster than paper. That is why they HATE gold in the hands of the people. That is why they outlawed and tax its use.

You are a bigger fool than I thought. No bank issues loans that are not subject to interest, at least not western banks -- the kind patterned after the Austrian mindset, of which you are a lackey, along with Ron Paul, your master.

You just proved my point. See answer to (2).

Once a fool, always a fool. And how would your gold standard, subject to the same inflationary pressure of compound interest as a a paper system be immune to that? Well of course since gold is tangible and finite, it would succumb to that impossible pressure faster than paper would. And this is what we witnessed in the 30's, and what we are living witnesses of today -- that a paper system is more flexible than gold -- and that is a good thing, not bad or evil as you say.

False. The only proper role of government is to manage public property. Everything else can be done much better by private actors. (See State or Private-Law Society.)

Fool again. The money supply is the common property of the people, so by your own words, you admit it. Nice reference to mises, I knew you were an Austrian. Do you know who funds your way of thinking? Do you know who ensures your way of thinking is taught in schools and universities?

Yep. You pay for the use that they gave you, that they did not have for that time. It is reasonable. If this is a voluntary contract it is valid. But the "contracts" the government makes in our names, when it borrows with interest, are invalid because we did not personally consent to that.

What makes it invalid you fool is that it is not mathematically possible to sustain such a system. And if you allow it to persist, it will destroy your beloved gold system faster than it destroys a paper one. Whoops, it already did.

Can everyone fulfill their obligation? You do the math.

Yes, because under gold system NOT all money is debt. And if they can't pay they should go bankrupt, so they will not make such fullish contracts in the future.

You just failed grade 3 math. And the contracts you call foolish, are the very contracts you are offering everyone who buys into your bankster funded Austrian / Ludwig von Mises gold bug system of garbage that can't even stand up to a nine year old counting on his fingers.

On the other hand, if a bank lends you $11 backed by nothing but faith in your good name and good credit, and you are required to return $11 the same bank as is everyone else, can you do it? Is that honest? Is it possible?

It is possible but inherently unstable, because defaults are likely to leave extra money in circulation. Plus, the ease of legally counterfeiting will prove too tempting to the banksters as history shows. Physical delivery of metal is the ultimate check on the scheming banksters. Again, it is the difference in walking through unlocked door, verses a locked door.

Nonsense, the only thing that can destablize that system would be the reintroduction of compound interest. It's a mathematical machine that requires no economists (no meddling), no gold reserves (no meddling), no treasury buying things (no meddling), no FED (no meddling), no IMF (no meddling), no economics degrees (no meddling), and no banks (no meddling), just a clearing house for introduction of money into the economy (loans), and for collecting it as it leaves (discharge). Your gold system removes none of these, but worse than that, it also hobbles the horse we're supposed to be riding on.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

You are worrying me now. You are arguing against yourself. Whether the money is paper or paper backed by gold, it still has to be monetized by the bank because we don't traffic in gold or silver, or private notes. I can't believe we're back to square one here.

You are wrong. In a Free Market anything can be used as money. Historically people trade in WEIGHT of gold or silver. It can be minted into coin or bullion by private mints. There is no need, per say, to "monetize" them at the bank. You transact in weight of metal if you wish. It is a simple idea.

As for Ron Paul, they don't want him because he threatens them, but because he threatens the economic survival of the planet,

Freedom "threatens the economic survival of the planet?" Really? You have been more brainwashed than I realized! All Ron Paul proposes is Free Competition in Currencies. If that "threatens the economic survival of the planet" you are truly delusional!

You want riots in the streets? Go gold.

How about go Freedom. Transact, UNMOLESTED in anything you choose? How about that? That's what Ron Paul is advocating. Wooo... VERY dangerous indeed! (For the banksters that is. Great for the people though!)

You want economic prosperity and fairness? Give the people a pen and paper (already got that), and abolish compound interest, so let's just abolish compound interest.

Do you have a moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use compound interest? No! Therefore you cannot delegate such authority to your government to do it in your behalf. (The Benson Principle). What you proposing requires the government to have authority that no individual can delegate to it. Therefore, unwittingly, you are advocating immoral use of government force. The proper solution is to legalize Freedom. Free Competition in currencies kills fiat, and it kills debt based monetary systems. Because people will prefer, sound, 100% commodity based, interest free money, -- the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man.

And what mechanism consolidates power? Does gold? No. Does compound interest? Yes. So what is the problem? And what is the solution?

Legalized and monopolized counterfeiting consolidates the power in bankster's hands. Take that away and most of their power is gone.

I love FREEDOM. You love coercion. That is the difference between us.

I love truth, that comes before liberty. And now you're back to libel, so if you will, bring out the coercive quotes from me,

I already did. See above where I mentioned the Benson Principle. I did give you the benefit of the doubt though, saying that you may be advocating immoral use of government force unwittingly.

or retract your comment, or not, and I'll file a complaint with the admins for libel.

I have shown you that you are advocating an immoral use of government force, because you wish the government exercise an authority that no one could have delegated to it, because no individual has such authority, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have.

Keep dreaming. Which is easier, to punch 12 zeroes on a computer, or to mine thousands of tons of gold?

Fool.

Really? I have not called you a fool yet. So when you complain to the admins about a correct statement I made about you, don't forget to mention that you called me a fool 5 times in this post! You can't make this up! Nice going, Sir! Are you resorting to insults because your argument is falling apart at the seams?

It is not the ease of the creation of the loan, but the difficulty in paying it back that restrains it's abuse.

Is it a news for you that the government has no intention of paying back its loans? The Fed bought entire industries with money created out of nothing in recent "bail outs," the "loans" that cannot be paid back. And when the industries default they will become the property of the banksters. They've done it by punching 12 zeroes on a computer. Do you think it would have been easier for them to mine thousands of tons of gold instead? Do you not see what legalized counterfeiting is? Banksters want a fiat (unbacked) system because it allows them to plunder the people so much the easier! Do you not understand this? Who is the fool here?

You are wrong. It is the other way around: Gold system kills compound interest counterfeiting system much faster than paper. That is why they HATE gold in the hands of the people. That is why they outlawed and tax its use.

No bank issues loans that are not subject to interest,

Do you not understand that banks cannot extend gold loans if they DON'T HAVE THE GOLD. It is because they can extend unlimited "loans" out of thin air that they were able to buy up the world!

You just proved my point. See answer to (2).

And how would your gold standard, subject to the same inflationary pressure of compound interest as a a paper system be immune to that?

That is exactly the point. Banks CANNOT extend a GOLD loan if they don't have the gold! It is a simple idea! Gold or a real commodity used as the medium of exchange prevents banksters from making the loans (and charging interest, because no loan = no interest to be charged). It is very simple. No gold = no loan = no interest to be collected. Then where will the money come from to run the economy you will ask? People will buy gold and silver from miners and mints, thus getting hold of interest free money. Money is just another good; it's just another product. There is nothing magical about money. Money is just another product, used as a medium of exchange.

Well of course since gold is tangible and finite, it would succumb to that impossible pressure faster than paper would.

You cannot loan gold if you don't have gold. That limits the banksters preventing legalized counterfeiting. Legalize freedom, i.e. Free Competition in Currencies, and you kill this shenanigans. So my solution is Freedom to allow Free Competition in Currencies; your "solution" is immoral use of government force to forbid compound interest. Therefore my solution is correct, because it is in harmony with Fundamental Principles of Liberty, and your "solution" is wrong, because it violates those Eternal Principles. I remind you that even Jesus said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27). Who is the fool here?

And this is what we witnessed in the 30's, and what we are living witnesses of today -- that a paper system is more flexible than gold -- and that is a good thing, not bad or evil as you say.

Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. It is legalized counterfeiting. Money is a representation of stored labor and stored value. By making it "flexible" you commit plunder. This is why 100% commodity based currency is the most honest and the most STABLE monetary system known to man. That is why it is preferred by people the world over, and through all the ages of history, absent government coercion.

The only proper role of government is to manage public property. Everything else can be done much better by private actors. (See State or Private-Law Society.)

The money supply is the common property of the people,

Wrong. Money is just another good. And it belongs to him who owns it and to none else. Learn at least that much, you closet socialist!

Nice reference to mises, I knew you were an Austrian. Do you know who funds your way of thinking? Do you know who ensures your way of thinking is taught in schools and universities?

Austrian economics (the economics of reality, individualism and of liberty) is almost never taught in schools. Keynesian economics is taught their all the time, because it is the economics of socialists and statists, and it is wrong. Is that a news for you?

Yep. You pay for the use that they gave you, that they did not have for that time. It is reasonable. If this is a voluntary contract it is valid. But the "contracts" the government makes in our names, when it borrows with interest, are invalid because we did not personally consent to that.

What makes it invalid ... is that it is not mathematically possible to sustain such a system.

It is very possible if you use sound, 100% commodity based money, and allow those who get too much into debt to go bankrupt. It is however impossible if you create money out of nothing and charge interest on non-existing money. Such a debt based interest bearing system, where all money is debt accumulating interest, must unavoidably self destruct.

And if you allow it to persist, it will destroy your beloved gold system faster than it destroys a paper one. Whoops, it already did.

You got it all backwards. Gold system destroys legalized counterfeiting and it destroys the ability to charge interest on nothing. Gold did not fail. It was outlawed.

On the other hand, if a bank lends you $11 backed by nothing but faith in your good name and good credit, and you are required to return $11 the same bank as is everyone else, can you do it? Is that honest? Is it possible?

It is possible but inherently unstable, because defaults are likely to leave extra money in circulation. Plus, the ease of legally counterfeiting will prove too tempting to the banksters as history shows. Physical delivery of metal is the ultimate check on the scheming banksters. Again, it is the difference in walking through unlocked door, verses a locked door.

Nonsense, the only thing that can destablize that system would be the reintroduction of compound interest. It's a mathematical machine that requires no economists (no meddling), no gold reserves (no meddling), no treasury buying things (no meddling), no FED (no meddling), no IMF (no meddling), no economics degrees (no meddling), and no banks (no meddling), just a clearing house for introduction of money into the economy (loans), and for collecting it as it leaves (discharge).

If such system is FORCED upon everyone, it requires immoral and improper use of government force (as defined by the Benson Principle). If it is not forced, than be my guest. I am sure some people will do it, and they are welcome to it. But the majority of the Free Market will be dominated by a 100% commodity based, interest free currency, because it is THE most honest, and THE most stable monetary system known to man.

Your gold system removes none of these, but worse than that, it also hobbles the horse we're supposed to be riding on.

The gold system of a truly Free Market slays unbacked fiat (i.e. legalized counterfeiting), with all its evils, because no one likes being plundered if they can choose.

Choice is all I am advocating. If people prefer your system (as some small percentage will) they are welcome to it. But do not prevent others (the vast majority, as history shows) to transact in gold, silver, or any other commodity based money they choose. Can we agree on at least that? Freedom? It is good for everyone!

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

It's been an interesting discussion. Lots of good and bad argument on both sides.

Bottom line for me is a prophet of God has made the case for gold or other precious metal backed currency. (An Enemy Hath Done This, ch. 16)

Gold has its problems, fiat is worse! Power not only corrupts it attracts the corrupt. Not much more powerful than the ability to create money from thin air - even if you started out with honorable people running it, over time you are always going to have people of bad intentions trying to gain that power.

The book of Mormon spoke of their monetary system which was weights of gold, silver, and grains, all interchangeable.

All of the arguments that the wealthy already own all the gold, etc....point taken but the alternative is to maintain an even worse system that they can continue tot ake what little we have thru inflation taxes. We all know the current system is doomed, and what doomed it was the Federal Reserve, going off the gold standard, confiscation of the gold and pegging the price of gold at $35/oz. rather than letting the market set the price. (It's all detailed in ch. 16 of An Enemy Hath Done This.

Now I realize this is a logical fallacy called "appealing to authority". Well, i don;t say it to convince you, I am saying it is how I am deciding which side of this discussion to support. If anyone can find a prophet extolling the virtues of fiat money (not going to happen since it is nothing but counterfeiting and theft by the government) I have my source, you all can argue based on your own wisdom or lack thereof.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

You are wrong. In a Free Market anything can be used as money. Historically people trade in WEIGHT of gold or silver. It can be minted into coin or bullion by private mints. There is no need, per say, to "monetize" them at the bank. You transact in weight of metal if you wish. It is a simple idea.

The reality is that nobody traffics in metals. Nobody. Period. It all ends up on paper, either with a promise to pay, or a promise to redeem.

Freedom "threatens the economic survival of the planet?" Really? You have been more brainwashed than I realized! All Ron Paul proposes is Free Competition in Currencies. If that "threatens the economic survival of the planet" you are truly delusional!

Your ability to misread what I wrote is incredible. Hence these tit for tat exposes you love to write. But despite the point by point you still miss the point. My point was merely to relay why THEY don't fear Mr. Paul. ie. Why he isn't dead yet.

How about go Freedom. Transact, UNMOLESTED in anything you choose? How about that? That's what Ron Paul is advocating. Wooo... VERY dangerous indeed! (For the banksters that is. Great for the people though!)

Not unmolested if you go against gold. Your country and mine showed recently what happens if you defy the banksters and start operating outside compound interest. They crush you, aka the Liberation of Lybia. It's very sad, but all the while Ron Paul is quite safe because he hasn't crossed that line into the truth of what killed gold and what is killing us now, and that is what I have against him -- and you.

Do you have a moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use compound interest? No! Therefore you cannot delegate such authority to your government to do it in your behalf. (The Benson Principle). What you proposing requires the government to have authority that no individual can delegate to it.

Actually, there will be no need for force. The new system I support will stand in opposition to the current fiasco. The people will immediately choose ours, and the banksters will be defeated. Of course compound interest will be illegal though, since it is fraud, and since fraud is illegal, so will compound interest be.

Legalized and monopolized counterfeiting consolidates the power in bankster's hands. Take that away and most of their power is gone.

Sure, but you still don't understand who creates loans. When I sign a promise to pay, no crime has been committed. As soon as the banker obfuscates this process though, a huge crime is committed, and he adds to it the fraud of compounding interest. That is the power you should be wishing to remove, not the power to contract one with another.

I already did. See above where I mentioned the Benson Principle. I did give you the benefit of the doubt though, saying that you may be advocating immoral use of government force unwittingly.

You have done no such thing.

I have shown you that you are advocating an immoral use of government force, because you wish the government exercise an authority that no one could have delegated to it, because no individual has such authority, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have.

Authority to contract is not mine? And as for your country, the government already as that authority delegated. You are an anarchist sir, a non-progressive alarmist paranoid that any authority express or implied is somehow wrong, while you hypocritically accuse me of things I never said while you say and support them yourself, ie. forcing on us a gold system using authority you say you will have but I can't?

Really? I have not called you a fool yet. So when you complain to the admins about a correct statement I made about you, don't forget to mention that you called me a fool 5 times in this post! You can't make this up! Nice going, Sir! Are you resorting to insults because your argument is falling apart at the seams?

Just following the Saviour's lead. I think he called someone a dog, or was that Isaiah? Either way, I've spared you that so far. I've given you grade 3 math that after 40 years of being brought to the attention of many minds more advanced than grade 3 has never been refuted because it's simple math, and you think you can waltz in here and make things up as you go along, cherry picking what you will and will not respond to? You check this thread: I answer every single one of your so called responses, while you cherry pick and leave out the ones I'm assuming you don't want to answer for reasons known to nobody but yourself.

Is it a news for you that the government has no intention of paying back its loans? The Fed bought entire industries with money created out of nothing in recent "bail outs," the "loans" that cannot be paid back. And when the industries default they will become the property of the banksters. They've done it by punching 12 zeroes on a computer. Do you think it would have been easier for them to mine thousands of tons of gold instead? Do you not see what legalized counterfeiting is? Banksters want a fiat (unbacked) system because it allows them to plunder the people so much the easier! Do you not understand this? Who is the fool here?

Which government? Yours or mine? How about Greece? How about any of them? Can they pay them back? Is it even possible? If yes, how? If not, why not? You have a lot of buzzwords here, but nothing more than you could collect from a Ron Paul rally, or the news at 6. Like I said, you are where I was 9 years ago. I would have been your best friend back then. Keep going.

Do you not understand that banks cannot extend gold loans if they DON'T HAVE THE GOLD. It is because they can extend unlimited "loans" out of thin air that they were able to buy up the world!

I understand that banks will need gold, but they won't have enough, so they'll have to resort to fractional reserve banking before they even start. If they don't want fractional reserve, they'll have to devaluate the currency first, and won't that be fun Mr. Goldbug?

That is exactly the point. Banks CANNOT extend a GOLD loan if they don't have the gold! It is a simple idea! Gold or a real commodity used as the medium of exchange prevents banksters from making the loans (and charging interest, because no loan = no interest to be charged). It is very simple. No gold = no loan = no interest to be collected. Then where will the money come from to run the economy you will ask? People will buy gold and silver from miners and mints, thus getting hold of interest free money. Money is just another good; it's just another product. There is nothing magical about money. Money is just another product, used as a medium of exchange.

Incredible. In the last 11 years, you are the dumbest person I have ever had this kind of conversation with. I'm not talking about any gold bank not issuing it's fractional reserve paper, which is what they will do if you bring gold back, I'm talking about the interest they WILL charge when they do issue the loan. Oh, and BTW, you make my own point for me: when the banks don't have any gold, as you say they won't be making any loans. And at that point the economy will begin to implode, commerce will grind to a halt, and just before we starve blood will run in the streets. Nice system you got there goldbug.

Well of course since gold is tangible and finite, it would succumb to that impossible pressure faster than paper would.

You cannot loan gold if you don't have gold. That limits the banksters preventing legalized counterfeiting. Legalize freedom, i.e. Free Competition in Currencies, and you kill this shenanigans. So my solution is Freedom to allow Free Competition in Currencies; your "solution" is immoral use of government force to forbid compound interest. Therefore my solution is correct, because it is in harmony with Fundamental Principles of Liberty, and your "solution" is wrong, because it violates those Eternal Principles. I remind you that even Jesus said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27). Who is the fool here? [/quote] Same answer as above: Oh, and BTW, you make my own point for me: when the banks don't have any gold, as you say they won't be making any loans. And at that point the economy will begin to implode, commerce will grind to a halt, and just before we starve blood will run in the streets. Nice system you got there goldbug. Oh, and to take scripture on talents / usury as a justification for usury is a vile twist of what that scripture is saying. The parable uses usury not to condone it, but merely to get the point across that even the laziest a$$ should be getting something back on his talents he has been given, and it apparently is is as easy to do that as it is to get something for nothing, which is what usury is all about.

Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. It is legalized counterfeiting. Money is a representation of stored labor and stored value. By making it "flexible" you commit plunder. This is why 100% commodity based currency is the most honest and the most STABLE monetary system known to man. That is why it is preferred by people the world over, and through all the ages of history, absent government coercion.

Nice buzzwords, but they mean nothing, and in fact expose the weakness of your position. Contracting as I please is not fraud, and having the flexibility to do that is not fraud either. On the contrary, having a gold system promoted by the Austrian mindset bankster driven and supported compound interest fraud is not honest, nor is it stable. It failed more than once before, and it is failing before our very eyes right now, and sadly, folks like you not only cannot admit what the real problem is, you actually actively promote what is wrong.

Wrong. Money is just another good. And it belongs to him who owns it and to none else. Learn at least that much, you closet socialist!

Little do you know, you one by one offering up all the typical arguments that I receive before the eventual and inevitable acquiescence to the facts. Calling me socialist is just one of them, when in reality, to say it one more time, to all the people to engage in free intercourse one with another commercially, by contract, with a money system unencumbered by government control, private control, and compound interest is banned, then that is true freedom. What you and the apostate cronies at mises augment is antithesis to the wisdom of one of our founding fathers, a man who passed into then next life with the full approbation of his God. Here are his words on the matter, and you may wrest them if you will, but it will be to your destruction:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."

Austrian economics (the economics of reality, individualism and of liberty) is almost never taught in schools. Keynesian economics is taught their all the time, because it is the economics of socialists and statists, and it is wrong. Is that a news for you?

What might be news to you is that what is taught in your schools in america is not necessarily what is taught in schools elsewhere, otherwise why is it called "Austrian"??? Boy oh boy. And no, I have no sympathy for you if you think you are the poor sister of the hegelian dialectical model they have given us, where we feud over whether it's austrian or keynesian all the while nobody notices the real problem that has yet be addressed properly by either of them.

It is very possible if you use sound, 100% commodity based money, and allow those who get too much into debt to go bankrupt. It is however impossible if you create money out of nothing and charge interest on non-existing money. Such a debt based interest bearing system, where all money is debt accumulating interest, must unavoidably self destruct.

Quit defending your beloved gold and answer the question yes or no. Is it possible or not to pay back money to a bank that it didn't lend in the first place? Irrespective of what backs it!

You got it all backwards. Gold system destroys legalized counterfeiting and it destroys the ability to charge interest on nothing. Gold did not fail. It was outlawed.

Perhaps you should tell the historians and economists I quote they're wrong. Perhaps their calendars broke on them. And gold was not outlawed in France, England, Australia, Canada, Russia, Germany, Poland, or Switzerland, so what again did you say was the demise of gold? I know it's tough for you Americans to see beyond your borders, but please try.

If such system is FORCED upon everyone, it requires immoral and improper use of government force (as defined by the Benson Principle). If it is not forced, than be my guest. I am sure some people will do it, and they are welcome to it. But the majority of the Free Market will be dominated by a 100% commodity based, interest free currency, because it is THE most honest, and THE most stable monetary system known to man.

Why bother telling me how MPE would work? I already know, and your interpretation of force is not valid. Again, nice buzzwords, but they mean nothing to me. They are where I was 9 years ago, and I won't return to that thinking like a dog would to it's vomit, but I'm not a dog, so it ain't happening, but the analogy fits.

The gold system of a truly Free Market slays unbacked fiat (i.e. legalized counterfeiting), with all its evils, because no one likes being plundered if they can choose.

Yikes, the carousel ride continues. Engaging in my right to contract is plunder? It's the obfuscation of the process and the compound interest that is the plunder. Notice that the scriptures don't ban loans, and they don't ban debt, but they ban compound interest. Hmmm, that is what I am preaching, not what you are preaching!

Choice is all I am advocating. If people prefer your system (as some small percentage will) they are welcome to it. But do not prevent others (the vast majority, as history shows) to transact in gold, silver, or any other commodity based money they choose. Can we agree on at least that? Freedom? It is good for everyone!

Not so easy. You have conveniently (to your point of view) carefully avoided the most important questions I have posed. There will be no concession this time, only resolution.

I will now explain something I have waited for you to realize, but you have not been able to see it because you seem so blinded by your support of gold, you have failed to see that I am not really opposed to gold in the first place, but secondarily. I've used history to show gold failed under it's own weight. Gold is controlled by few, so it is already flawed. Since there isn't enough gold, the next compromise is to go to a bi-metallic system. That was done once before, but France got hammered when it got stuck in that situation in the 30's so it's clearly still something that not just might be manipulated -- it is and will be.

The only thing that cannot be manipulated is this: I have in my hand a pen, and with that pen I write I will pay back to the bank $11 next month if they give me $11 today. The bank gives me my $11, and I'm on my way. (the loan is $10, + $1 fee). Now everyone in the economy does this, and all go out that month and earn and spend their $11. Next month, it's the same thing, except some will want $25 because they need clothes, or they have more mouths to feed. Overall, the economy is solvent, and there is no inflation, because there is no compound interest. And because there is no inflation, there is no deflation pressure either, nor any need or reason for any government intervention whatsoever. Like the dew distilling from heaven, the economy is lubricated by the free introduction and destruction (call it circulation if you must) of it's currency, and everyone prospers.

There is no fraud here. There are no rich and no poor here -- everyone works, everyone contributes. We borrow the value of the item at it's inception, and we retire the value of that item out of circulation at the same rate as it depreciates. This is a perfect mathematical system that isn't really a system, it is a formula. This formula (actually a slight variation of it) was used by Japan pre WWII, and was the reason for the attack against it. Germany was doing this as well. I don't want to scare you, so won't tell you which other countries are doing something similar, but what the heck: Red China is doing this internally. So you can expect they will be on the ware list soon too as was Libya and other middle eastern countries that don't subscribe to compound interest banking. Lest you think this a practice of tyrants only, stop and think who tells you your history. You live in a country which incarcerates more of it's population per capita than even red china. You fight wars of aggression for false flags for the banksters across the globe, and you still raise up your voice in favor of their polluted system. Your own presidents have died trying to implement what I am discussing here, essentially, but you haven't pondered that long enough to realize the veracity of their position, or that they paid most dearly for what they did.

Worst of all, you have grade 3 math that has been presented, and you can't acknowledge it. Unfortunately, I expect that your mind and the minds of many others will entirely fail to see the truth of the matter until it is too late, in fulfillment of prophecy:

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate

How painful it is to be on a planet with folks that are so stupid they cannot understand the truth even when it is explained to them as plain as word can be.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

It's been an interesting discussion. Lots of good and bad argument on both sides.

Bottom line for me is a prophet of God has made the case for gold or other precious metal backed currency. (An Enemy Hath Done This, ch. 16)

Gold has its problems, fiat is worse! Power not only corrupts it attracts the corrupt. Not much more powerful than the ability to create money from thin air - even if you started out with honorable people running it, over time you are always going to have people of bad intentions trying to gain that power.

The book of Mormon spoke of their monetary system which was weights of gold, silver, and grains, all interchangeable.

All of the arguments that the wealthy already own all the gold, etc....point taken but the alternative is to maintain an even worse system that they can continue tot ake what little we have thru inflation taxes. We all know the current system is doomed, and what doomed it was the Federal Reserve, going off the gold standard, confiscation of the gold and pegging the price of gold at $35/oz. rather than letting the market set the price. (It's all detailed in ch. 16 of An Enemy Hath Done This.

Now I realize this is a logical fallacy called "appealing to authority". Well, i don;t say it to convince you, I am saying it is how I am deciding which side of this discussion to support. If anyone can find a prophet extolling the virtues of fiat money (not going to happen since it is nothing but counterfeiting and theft by the government) I have my source, you all can argue based on your own wisdom or lack thereof.

A prophet of God also stated that there were people on the moon, that man would never get to outer space, that the BoM copyright should be sold in Canada (it was not), and that is just 3 off the top of my head. What are you doing here sir? Handing away your thought process to someone else? Here's one for you: another prophet, N. Eldon Tanner was in favour of the system that you warred against Japan for, which is "Social Credit". Yes, Tanner was for Social Credit, and he was a "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" as well. So take your pick. And while you're at it, you'll might as well subscribe to P. Hinckley, denying that nobody in the "sound of his voice" wasn't in favor of the US aggression post 911. Well I wasn't!

But whatever, I have 7 kids that need their dad right now. I recommend you change your name to "idontthink".

I can't believe I have to pull these out again, but here they are:

JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.



Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38. President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS - SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL - THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

Brigham Young at the Provo, Utah Bowery Conference in 1867 Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this church.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Actually, there will be no need for force. The new system I support will stand in opposition to the current fiasco. The people will immediately choose ours, and the banksters will be defeated.

Great. That means you are advocating for Free Competition in Currencies, just like Ron Paul. Congratulations! We are on the same page then!

Of course compound interest will be illegal though, since it is fraud, and since fraud is illegal, so will compound interest be.

Compound interest is NOT fraud if all parties involved agreed to it. Even Jesus said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27).

Sure, but you still don't understand who creates loans. When I sign a promise to pay, no crime has been committed. As soon as the banker obfuscates this process though, a huge crime is committed, and he adds to it the fraud of compounding interest. That is the power you should be wishing to remove, not the power to contract one with another.

Power to contract is fine and good. What is wrong, however is banksters conjuring "loans" and purchasing power out of nothing. That is the essence of counterfeiting.

I have shown you that you are advocating an immoral use of government force, because you wish the government exercise an authority that no one could have delegated to it, because no individual has such authority, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have.

Authority to contract is not mine?

It is yours. But you have no right to FORCE third parties to honor your "contracts" as money. Neither do you have authority to forbid compound interest for consenting parties.

And as for your country, the government already as that authority delegated.

Who delegated that authority to it? No INDIVIDUAL has such authority. Therefore no one could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one can delegate an authority he does not have.

You are an anarchist sir,

The definition of the ward is:

an·ar·chy
   [an-er-kee] Show IPA
noun
1. a state of society without government or law.

2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.

3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

Definitions 1, 2, and 4 are negative. Definition 3, is the very definition of Freedom. If that's the definition you have in mind, I am honored to agree with you. It's too bad, however, that one word means almost opposite things. Therefore I prefer the word Liberty.

a non-progressive alarmist paranoid that any authority express or implied is somehow wrong,

Not at all. If the authority is properly delegated to the government, I am all for it. But if government starts excersizing authority that no one could have delegated to it, then I am against it, because such government is no longer by and for the people, but an usurping tyrant, that manufactures its own authority and violates the rights and property of sovereign individuals. (It is individuals that are sovereign, not the government. Please see The Fundamental Principles of Liberty.)

while you hypocritically accuse me of things I never said while you say and support them yourself, ie. forcing on us a gold system using authority you say you will have but I can't?

All I said is that you are free to transact in whatever you want. How is that FORCING you? English anyone?

You check this thread: I answer every single one of your so called responses, while you cherry pick and leave out the ones I'm assuming you don't want to answer for reasons known to nobody but yourself.

What have I not answered, Sir?

Is it a news for you that the government has no intention of paying back its loans? The Fed bought entire industries with money created out of nothing in recent "bail outs," the "loans" that cannot be paid back. And when the industries default they will become the property of the banksters. They've done it by punching 12 zeroes on a computer. Do you think it would have been easier for them to mine thousands of tons of gold instead? Do you not see what legalized counterfeiting is? Banksters want a fiat (unbacked) system because it allows them to plunder the people so much the easier! Do you not understand this?

Which government? Yours or mine? How about Greece? How about any of them?

All of the above.

Can they pay them back? Is it even possible? If yes, how? If not, why not?

They can't pay it back because ALL money in existence is debt bearing interest. Before you scream Aha! Let me say: Your so called solution is to outlaw interest, which would violate a fundamental principle of liberty by requiring the government to have an authority that no one could have delegated to it. My solution is to legalize Freedom and to allow Free Competition in Currencies which will kill fiat debt based interest bearing system, because it CANNOT exist without a government forced monopoly. My solution is in harmony with Fundamental Principles of Liberty, your solution violates them. Besides, if you have Free Competition in Currencies, your system is welcome to exist side by side with gold and silver, for instance, and then come and see what most people will choose. (I give you a hint, absent government coercion, majority of people will prefer gold, silver or some other 100% commodity based, interest free currency, because it is THE most stable, and THE most honest monetary system known to man. Your system may also exist, but it will not catch majority of the market. But what the heck, you will still be free to use YOUR system, as long as you do not FORCE anyone to do the same. See, Freedom works for everyone!

Do you not understand that banks cannot extend gold loans if they DON'T HAVE THE GOLD. It is because they can extend unlimited "loans" out of thin air that they were able to buy up the world!

I understand that banks will need gold, but they won't have enough,

If they don't have enough they should not be loaning what does not exist, because that would be fraud, my friend!

so they'll have to resort to fractional reserve banking before they even start.

As I said, "fractional reserve banking" is a blatant fraud. It is allowed to exist only because of a corrupt and immoral law. Remove that immoral force (all law is force) and this fraud comes crushing down.

If they don't want fractional reserve, they'll have to devaluate the currency first, and won't that be fun Mr. Goldbug?

Free Competition in Currencies is the answer. Let the fraudulent unstable currencies (like FRN's or your Canadian unbacked paper) die by the hand of Free Market by being in direct competition with say gold, or silver currency. And let the people CHOOSE which currency preserves their purchasing power better. (I'll give you a hint, it will NOT be the unbacked paper, neither will it be your "promises to pay" no one knows what, but it will be an 100% commodity based currency, because it is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man.) Free Market rules! It is the only thing that actually works!

That is exactly the point. Banks CANNOT extend a GOLD loan if they don't have the gold! It is a simple idea! Gold or a real commodity used as the medium of exchange prevents banksters from making the loans (and charging interest, because no loan = no interest to be charged). It is very simple. No gold = no loan = no interest to be collected. Then where will the money come from to run the economy you will ask? People will buy gold and silver from miners and mints, thus getting hold of interest free money. Money is just another good; it's just another product. There is nothing magical about money. Money is just another product, used as a medium of exchange.

Incredible.

Yeah, I know, right? It's that simple! Isn't it beautiful?

In the last 11 years, you are the dumbest person I have ever had this kind of conversation with.

O, right back at you, Sir!

I'm not talking about any gold bank not issuing it's fractional reserve paper, which is what they will do if you bring gold back, I'm talking about the interest they WILL charge when they do issue the loan.

Yeah, and if anyone is stupid enough to take those loans, they better be ready to pay the interest. And if they don't they SHOULD go bankrupt!

Oh, and BTW, you make my own point for me: when the banks don't have any gold, as you say they won't be making any loans. And at that point the economy will begin to implode,

As well as it should, if it is a bubble economy. Capital comes from savings, not from printing press.

commerce will grind to a halt, and just before we starve blood will run in the streets. Nice system you got there goldbug.

Food is still valuable. There will still be supply and demand. You have free competition in Currencies. No one is FORCING any one to use or not to use a currency. So you can still deal in unbacked paper, AS WELL AS in gold and silver, or anything else. Thus the Free Market will gradually refine the most honest and the most stable currency, just as Free Market perfects any other product. It is the smoothest and the most harmonious transition from utter fraud known as fiat, to an honest and stable monetary system. Otherwise there WILL be chaos, if this paper fraud is allowed to self-destruct before an alternative is available. Thus Free Competition in Currencies is the correct solution.

You cannot loan gold if you don't have gold. That limits the banksters preventing legalized counterfeiting. Legalize freedom, i.e. Free Competition in Currencies, and you kill this shenanigans. So my solution is Freedom to allow Free Competition in Currencies; your "solution" is immoral use of government force to forbid compound interest. Therefore my solution is correct, because it is in harmony with Fundamental Principles of Liberty, and your "solution" is wrong, because it violates those Eternal Principles. I remind you that even Jesus said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27). Who is the fool here?

Same answer as above: Oh, and BTW, you make my own point for me: when the banks don't have any gold, as you say they won't be making any loans. And at that point the economy will begin to implode, commerce will grind to a halt, and just before we starve blood will run in the streets. Nice system you got there goldbug.

As I said before, Free Competition in Currencies does NOT require banks to stop loaning their worthless paper, they still do that. But they cannot forbid other currencies exist and develop SIDE BY SIDE with them. That is a much smoother transition than what you are describing. All we are advocating is legalization of Freedom!

Oh, and to take scripture on talents / usury as a justification for usury is a vile twist of what that scripture is saying. The parable uses usury not to condone it, but merely to get the point across that even the laziest a$$ should be getting something back on his talents he has been given, and it apparently is is as easy to do that as it is to get something for nothing, which is what usury is all about.

That's not what it says. Learn to read. He said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." So interest is just fine, because it is the cost of someone else using your money, while you can't. It makes perfect sense.

Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. It is legalized counterfeiting. Money is a representation of stored labor and stored value. By making it "flexible" you commit plunder. This is why 100% commodity based currency is the most honest and the most STABLE monetary system known to man. That is why it is preferred by people the world over, and through all the ages of history, absent government coercion.

Nice buzzwords, but they mean nothing,

Yeah, because you have problem with English or with reason. But truth speaks for itself.

Contracting as I please is not fraud,

Nobody said it was. But to FORCE your contracts as money upon third parties via government coercion is wicked.

and having the flexibility to do that is not fraud either.

Having flexibility to enter into a proper contract is fine. But you have no "flexibility" to force those contracts as money upon third parties that have NOT contracted with you! If they want to, its fine. But they should be free to refuse and to transact in gold and silver (or anything else for that matter), if they choose.

On the contrary, having a gold system promoted by the Austrian mindset bankster driven and supported compound interest fraud is not honest, nor is it stable. It failed more than once before, and it is failing before our very eyes right now

Really? Do you see a lot of people transacting in gold and silver now? They do not, because government puts them in jail if they try. (Surprised?) It's a fact.

, and sadly, folks like you not only cannot admit what the real problem is, you actually actively promote what is wrong.

I promote Freedom. Do you have a problem with that?

in reality, to say it one more time, to all the people to engage in free intercourse one with another commercially, by contract, with a money system unencumbered by government control, private control, and compound interest is banned, then that is true freedom.

I agree, except for banning interest. Do you have the moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use interest? No. Therefore you cannot ask your government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you yourself do not have. (Benson Principle)

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."

Yes. This pertains to American people allowing their government to grant an issuance monopoly to a private banking cartel. I am against that. No government forced monopolies are allowed in a Free Market. Thus bad currencies die, and good and stable ones live. Simple. Money is just another product in a free market! Nothing magical about it.

It is very possible if you use sound, 100% commodity based money, and allow those who get too much into debt to go bankrupt. It is however impossible if you create money out of nothing and charge interest on non-existing money. Such a debt based interest bearing system, where all money is debt accumulating interest, must unavoidably self destruct.

Quit defending your beloved gold and answer the question yes or no. Is it possible or not to pay back money to a bank that it didn't lend in the first place? Irrespective of what backs it!

Learn to read! I underlined it for you. "It is very possible" means "Yes," if you didn't know. But it is a qualified "yes."

You got it all backwards. Gold system destroys legalized counterfeiting and it destroys the ability to charge interest on nothing. Gold did not fail. It was outlawed.

Perhaps you should tell the historians and economists I quote they're wrong. Perhaps their calendars broke on them. And gold was not outlawed in France, England, Australia, Canada, Russia, Germany, Poland, or Switzerland, so what again did you say was the demise of gold? I know it's tough for you Americans to see beyond your borders, but please try.

The same tax penalties on gold transactions exist in all the countries you mentioned. So in essence, gold transactions are outlawed by the FORCE of taxation.

Notice that the scriptures don't ban loans, and they don't ban debt, but they ban compound interest.

Not really. Prohibitions on usury were a form of charity among the Israelites. It does not however mean that usury is in of itself immoral. Otherwise why would Jesus sanction its use? Said he: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27).

Choice is all I am advocating. If people prefer your system (as some small percentage will) they are welcome to it. But do not prevent others (the vast majority, as history shows) to transact in gold, silver, or any other commodity based money they choose. Can we agree on at least that? Freedom? It is good for everyone!

Not so easy. ... Since there isn't enough gold,

That is simply false. There is ALWAYS enough gold! In fact the total amount of gold in the world is almost irrelevant. Theoretically ANY amount of gold can support world economy. The fact that it is scarce makes it perform its function as the medium of exchange even better!

the next compromise is to go to a bi-metallic system. That was done once before, but France got hammered when it got stuck in that situation in the 30's so it's clearly still something that not just might be manipulated -- it is and will be.

Free Market, absent government coerced, artificially fixed exchange rates, sorts it out very well!

The only thing that cannot be manipulated is this: I have in my hand a pen, and with that pen I write I will pay back to the bank $11 next month if they give me $11 today. The bank gives me my $11, and I'm on my way. (the loan is $10, + $1 fee). Now everyone in the economy does this, and all go out that month and earn and spend their $11. Next month, it's the same thing, except some will want $25 because they need clothes, or they have more mouths to feed. Overall, the economy is solvent, and there is no inflation, because there is no compound interest. And because there is no inflation, there is no deflation pressure either, nor any need or reason for any government intervention whatsoever. Like the dew distilling from heaven, the economy is lubricated by the free introduction and destruction (call it circulation if you must) of it's currency, and everyone prospers.

And you are welcome to that system as long as you do not FORCE people to participate in it. It is however IMMORAL to FORCE people to be a part of that system, and to forbid them to transact in anything else they please.

The major danger with that system is that it makes all too easy for a bureaucrat, unchecked by the necessity of physical delivery of gold or silver, to conjure money out of nothing and thus rob everyone via counterfeiting, because as I said before: It is INFINITELY easier to conjure 0's and 1's on a computer than to mine for actual gold. So your system is much more easily corrupted than a real gold or silver system. It's like a locked and unlocked door. You can walk through both, but one is MUCH easier than the other! 100% commodity backing of money is like that lock, that makes legalized, (or illegal) counterfeiting MUCH, MUCH harder.

This is why in a truly Free Market, overwhelming majority of people will prefer a 100% commodity backed system, because it is THE most stable and the most honest known to man. But let the people decide. Let both exist side by side, and then come and see which will win most of the market. It's like Zune and iPod. Both have a right to exist, but one is WAY preferred over the other!

How painful it is to be on a planet with folks that are so stupid they cannot understand the truth even when it is explained to them as plain as word can be.

I understand. And so should you. Freedom is the only thing that is moral, and that works. Freedom,--that's all I ask for. Let people transact in what they will without government coercion. Can you understand that? Do you understand that individuals must be free? FREEDOM! Is it clicking yet?

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

A prophet of God also stated that there were people on the moon,

There are people on the moon, not to mention in the moon. The prophet was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38. President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS - SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL - THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

Brigham Young at the Provo, Utah Bowery Conference in 1867 Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this church.

This I actually like. Thanks!

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

Compound interest is NOT fraud if all parties involved agreed to it. Even Jesus said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27).

If any contract contains any part that is illegal, it is not enforceable. You can walk away from it. Unjust enrichment, non disclosure, fraud -- these all cancel a contract and make it void. Full stop. Anything involving compound interest is void, and I know because I've taken the bankers to task on this and won time and time and time again.

Power to contract is fine and good. What is wrong, however is banksters conjuring "loans" and purchasing power out of nothing. That is the essence of counterfeiting.

Counterfeiting is a Griffin word, and it is not very accurate. What we're dealing with is fraud, as the banks grab your promissory not, change it into bank notes, then saddle it with compounding interest. A former chairman of your federal reserve said: "Our economic system is a form of fraud, where nobody can deal justly one with another". He didn't say that because paper money is created, but because of how. What I'm saying that you don't seem to realize, is that the "money" is not created by the bank, it is created by the BORROWER. The money is the promissory note, the bank uses their "acceptance" for that "commercial paper", but that initial promissory note IS THE LOAN.

It is yours. But you have no right to FORCE third parties to honor your "contracts" as money. Neither do you have authority to forbid compound interest for consenting parties.

If you don't want the confusion of a barter system, and I mean even a monetary barter system (which is actually what the planet has right now with it's competing currencies), then you have to settle on a standard (US dollar perchance), or even locally you would have no end of private banks touting their money. Of course if you use gold certificates this is a non issue, but then again, we already addressed the limitations and inflexibility of gold, or platinum, or copper, or silver, or any other metal or manure out there. For this reason, the power to coin money is given to the government, an is it's "most sacred and conspicuous duty", for if they devolve upon this duty properly, the won't need to encroach upon much else, but if they screw this up, there will be no end of trouble.

Who delegated that authority to it? No INDIVIDUAL has such authority. Therefore no one could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one can delegate an authority he does not have.

The people can and did give this to the government, and they should. Otherwise, it's economic anarchy (aka barter).

Definitions 1, 2, and 4 are negative. Definition 3, is the very definition of Freedom. If that's the definition you have in mind, I am honored to agree with you. It's too bad, however, that one word means almost opposite things. Therefore I prefer the word Liberty.

So be it, then we both are in favor of #3, but the way to get there is not yet agreed upon, and I might mention, ironically, we cannot attain that level until there is a union of faith, not a dissolution of it.

Not at all. If the authority is properly delegated to the government, I am all for it. But if government starts excersizing authority that no one could have delegated to it, then I am against it, because such government is no longer by and for the people, but an usurping tyrant, that manufactures its own authority and violates the rights and property of sovereign individuals. (It is individuals that are sovereign, not the government. Please see The Fundamental Principles of Liberty.)

I'm not looking up your reference, I understand your point. I agree, that if properly delegated, we are in good hands. The problem is the abuse of that delegation through deceipt, or corruption, or neglect, or even incompetence, all of which factor in to the mess we are in today.

What have I not answered, Sir?

I cannot remember, that is a casualty of this style of way of posting. (tit for tat)

Is it a news for you that the government has no intention of paying back its loans? ... All of the above.

My point is that you not confuse MPE with the evil systems we see all around us.

They can't pay it back because ALL money in existence is debt bearing interest. Before you scream Aha! Let me say: Your so called solution is to outlaw interest, which would violate a fundamental principle of liberty by requiring the government to have an authority that no one could have delegated to it. My solution is to legalize Freedom and to allow Free Competition in Currencies which will kill fiat debt based interest bearing system, because it CANNOT exist without a government forced monopoly. My solution is in harmony with Fundamental Principles of Liberty, your solution violates them. Besides, if you have Free Competition in Currencies, your system is welcome to exist side by side with gold and silver, for instance, and then come and see what most people will choose. (I give you a hint, absent government coercion, majority of people will prefer gold, silver or some other 100% commodity based, interest free currency, because it is THE most stable, and THE most honest monetary system known to man. Your system may also exist, but it will not catch majority of the market. But what the heck, you will still be free to use YOUR system, as long as you do not FORCE anyone to do the same. See, Freedom works for everyone!

Compound interest would be not outlawed directly, but as a form of FRAUD, it would have to go. We already have laws regarding fraud, we just have to use them, but since the entire system by which loans are issued is totally obfuscated, we have no power to prosecute other than the odd brave / enlightened man here and there. You wish competition in currency, I say no, cooperation in currency, free commerce in everything else. Look inside your body: a common circulation system, and every member performs to the best of it's ability be it lungs, eyes, heart, brain, skin, gonads, what have you. You get the idea. Society is the same: a common money, then everything else is fair game, but not the money itself. That is the love that get's us into trouble, and is what is meant when the love of money is called "the root of all evil", where love means the money becomes your one and only fixation, which it is now for most people.

If they don't have enough they should not be loaning what does not exist, because that would be fraud, my friend!

Friendly or not, if they don't have it, commerce will stagnate and die, and that is historical.

As I said, "fractional reserve banking" is a blatant fraud. It is allowed to exist only because of a corrupt and immoral law. Remove that immoral force (all law is force) and this fraud comes crushing down.

I am not in favor of fractional reserve banking, neither are you, but unfortunately for you, that is what will happen before the horn even sounds to start the game with gold again.

Free Competition in Currencies is the answer. Let the fraudulent unstable currencies (like FRN's or your Canadian unbacked paper) die by the hand of Free Market by being in direct competition with say gold, or silver currency. And let the people CHOOSE which currency preserves their purchasing power better. (I'll give you a hint, it will NOT be the unbacked paper, neither will it be your "promises to pay" no one knows what, but it will be an 100% commodity based currency, because it is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man.) Free Market rules! It is the only thing that actually works!

I appreciate your enthusiasm for your goldbug system, but if you are willing to cut the hyperbole, I'll quit calling you goldbug. The faith and credit of the individual is what backs loans MPE. Are you against faith? Are you against credit? You are in favor of the evils of compound interest, would you count that better than these?

Yeah, I know, right? It's that simple! Isn't it beautiful?

I would love to see a picture of who I'm talking to. No it isn't beautiful, it's historically a total mess.

Yeah, and if anyone is stupid enough to take those loans, they better be ready to pay the interest. And if they don't they SHOULD go bankrupt!

Statements like this is why I called you stupid, because you yourself take those loans "stupid", and as per your wish, bankruptcy is at your doorstep. Enjoy.

As well as it should, if it is a bubble economy. Capital comes from savings, not from printing press.

Capital comes from the efforts of humans to make the planet a better place. Your problem is you think money is capital. That is not correct. Capital is ans ability to get up and dig holes and plant things that will grow, to nail boards together, to program code, to sew clothes, grease wheels. That is the real capital. At the lowest level, trees in the forest are not capital, neither are fish in the sea nor is arable land that is not plowed. Eventually man set's his hand to it and he calls it capital, but money certainly is not capital, is not wealth, but is a medium of exchanging wealth, even FUTURE wealth.

Food is still valuable. There will still be supply and demand. You have free competition in Currencies. No one is FORCING any one to use or not to use a currency. So you can still deal in unbacked paper, AS WELL AS in gold and silver, or anything else. Thus the Free Market will gradually refine the most honest and the most stable currency, just as Free Market perfects any other product. It is the smoothest and the most harmonious transition from utter fraud known as fiat, to an honest and stable monetary system. Otherwise there WILL be chaos, if this paper fraud is allowed to self-destruct before an alternative is available. Thus Free Competition in Currencies is the correct solution.

We should create a game. You can be the goldbug banker, I'll let my followers be their own creditors, and we'll see who wins all around.

As I said before, Free Competition in Currencies does NOT require banks to stop loaning their worthless paper, they still do that. But they cannot forbid other currencies exist and develop SIDE BY SIDE with them. That is a much smoother transition than what you are describing. All we are advocating is legalization of Freedom!

We're in circles here.

That's not what it says. Learn to read. He said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." So interest is just fine, because it is the cost of someone else using your money, while you can't. It makes perfect sense.

It makes perfect sense that Christ was promoting what was forbidden -- from his own mouth?

Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. ...Yeah, because you have problem with English or with reason. But truth speaks for itself.

You keep telling me to learn English, but you can't understand what I am saying after I've written 10,000 words on the subject. Flexible currency does not mean it's value changes, it means it is able to expand and contract exactly as the market demands. The only way this can happen is to use promises to pay. Gold cannot do this, it is inflexible, which is a very common economic term, one you should be well versed in if you are as advanced as you pretend to be. The fact you overlooked this speaks volumes.

Nobody said it was. But to FORCE your contracts as money upon third parties via government coercion is wicked.

Sigh, we just went over this 3 paragraphs up.

Having flexibility to enter into a proper contract is fine. But you have no "flexibility" to force those contracts as money upon third parties that have NOT contracted with you! If they want to, its fine. But they should be free to refuse and to transact in gold and silver (or anything else for that matter), if they choose.

ditto

Really? Do you see a lot of people transacting in gold and silver now? They do not, because government puts them in jail if they try. (Surprised?) It's a fact.

In the US, but the're coining money, which has been reserved to congress. You should know that, Ron Paul talks about that.

I promote Freedom. Do you have a problem with that?

You say you promote freedom with your mouth from time to time, but you actually promote a system of bondage, and yes I have a problem with that.

I agree, except for banning interest. Do you have the moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use interest? No. Therefore you cannot ask your government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you yourself do not have. (Benson Principle)

Banning interest, by calling it the fraud that it is, is the essence of this conversation, because it is mathematically impossible to work with.

Yes. This pertains to American people allowing their government to grant an issuance monopoly to a private banking cartel. I am against that. No government forced monopolies are allowed in a Free Market. Thus bad currencies die, and good and stable ones live. Simple. Money is just another product in a free market! Nothing magical about it.

But you missed half the quote. The inflationary pressure, and deflationary pressure, are the problem. And that happens through compound interest, and has nothing to do with the business cycle.

Learn to read! I underlined it for you. "It is very possible" means "Yes," if you didn't know. But it is a qualified "yes."

Yes to what? Compound interest systems will all fail? You agree to that?

The same tax penalties on gold transactions exist in all the countries you mentioned. So in essence, gold transactions are outlawed by the FORCE of taxation.

That is not correct. You have no pervasive knowledge of tax laws punishing gold transactions in any country. Pawn shops near here buy gold, and gold buyers are frequently in town, and they pay no more tax than joe the bartender or hairdresser.

Not really. Prohibitions on usury were a form of charity among the Israelites. It does not however mean that usury is in of itself immoral. Otherwise why would Jesus sanction its use? Said he: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27).

No, usury was totally banned except in some special cases for your enemies, because usury is an act of war, just like a naval blockade.

That is simply false. There is ALWAYS enough gold! In fact the total amount of gold in the world is almost irrelevant. Theoretically ANY amount of gold can support world economy. The fact that it is scarce makes it perform its function as the medium of exchange even better!

Idiot, the world uses compound interest which is an exponential process which will take a while to get going, but in the end will quickly rise to infinity. Bacteria can't even grow exponentially for more than a 24 hours in a petri dish, then they max out and start to die and level off. Nuclear reactions are the same. There is no natural process that can sustain anything that is exponential, so why you think there is enough gold is beyond me. Artificial paper systems like the FED can't even keep up with compound interest, and somehow if we switch to gold this problem will somehow not just get better, but go away?

Free Market, absent government coerced, artificially fixed exchange rates, sorts it out very well!

History is not on your side. History is very bleak on hard metal systems.

And you are welcome to that system as long as you do not FORCE people to participate in it. It is however IMMORAL to FORCE people to be a part of that system, and to forbid them to transact in anything else they please.

Just give up your force crap, I never said anything about force. It's disingenuous to say the least.

The major danger with that system is that it makes all too easy for a bureaucrat, unchecked by the necessity of physical delivery of gold or silver, to conjure money out of nothing and thus rob everyone via counterfeiting, because as I said before: It is INFINITELY easier to conjure 0's and 1's on a computer than to mine for actual gold. So your system is much more easily corrupted than a real gold or silver system. It's like a locked and unlocked door. You can walk through both, but one is MUCH easier than the other! 100% commodity backing of money is like that lock, that makes legalized, (or illegal) counterfeiting MUCH, MUCH harder.

Well then you'll like MPE, because the mechanism that generates the loans is not entirely in the governments hands, but it is under their jurisdiction, like your constitution does with yours, though it is not followed. There would be brokers that would issue loans (yes, private brokers, you should like that), but they would just be issuing the national currency. Overhead they charge to do this would be added to the fee, but it would have to be competitive, and the government itself would also be issuing loans to anyone who qualified. I say government, but that would be a branch of the government separated, just as you have judicial and executive separated, there would be the financial engine separated as well.

This is why in a truly Free Market, overwhelming majority of people will prefer a 100% commodity backed system, because it is THE most stable and the most honest known to man. But let the people decide. Let both exist side by side, and then come and see which will win most of the market. It's like Zune and iPod. Both have a right to exist, but one is WAY preferred over the other!

Please, my time is limited. You could say it once more or 8 million times more, but you'll never get me back to the vomit, I've been there and done that.

I understand. And so should you. Freedom is the only thing that is moral, and that works. Freedom,--that's all I ask for. Let people transact in what they will without government coercion. Can you understand that? Do you understand that individuals must be free? FREEDOM! Is it clicking yet?

Something is clicking, but does not bode well for you.

I have to ask, that in respect of both of our time, we reduce the tit for tat to running commentary, if that is possible. I cannot justify any more time for this format. I propose just one topic to be discussed, hyperbole aside, and I want your honest answers on it. The question is this: how do you think your gold system will escape the ravages of compound interest, the "most powerful force in the universe" that actually precipitated the failure of the gold standard less than 100 years ago, right there in your own country. As you consider that, consider that Japan became the economic powerhouse in Asia in less than 10 year doing what I suggest, and that Germany not only defeated hyperinflation, but financed a massive war machine that nearly conquered the world, and again, they did this in less than 10 years, and ALL THIS WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD (ON THE GOLD STANDARD) WAS SUFFERING IN DEEP DEPRESSION. Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, and what I have just proposed will be the subject material, and of course, there must be no hyperbole like "it's the best", or "this is great", or "you just know it's better" kind of zealous garbage.

Comments?