Compound interest is NOT fraud if all parties involved agreed to it. Even Jesus said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27
If any contract contains any part that is illegal, it is not enforceable. You can walk away from it. Unjust enrichment, non disclosure, fraud -- these all cancel a contract and make it void. Full stop. Anything involving compound interest is void, and I know because I've taken the bankers to task on this and won time and time and time again.
LoveIsTruth wrote: Power to contract is fine and good. What is wrong, however is banksters conjuring "loans" and purchasing power out of nothing. That is the essence of counterfeiting.
Counterfeiting is a Griffin word, and it is not very accurate. What we're dealing with is fraud, as the banks grab your promissory not, change it into bank notes, then saddle it with compounding interest. A former chairman of your federal reserve said: "Our economic system is a form of fraud, where nobody can deal justly one with another". He didn't say that because paper money is created, but because of how. What I'm saying that you don't seem to realize, is that the "money" is not created by the bank, it is created by the BORROWER. The money is the promissory note, the bank uses their "acceptance" for that "commercial paper", but that initial promissory note IS THE LOAN.
LoveIsTruth wrote:It is yours. But you have no right to FORCE third parties to honor your "contracts" as money. Neither do you have authority to forbid compound interest for consenting parties.
If you don't want the confusion of a barter system, and I mean even a monetary barter system (which is actually what the planet has right now with it's competing currencies), then you have to settle on a standard (US dollar perchance), or even locally you would have no end of private banks touting their money. Of course if you use gold certificates this is a non issue, but then again, we already addressed the limitations and inflexibility of gold, or platinum, or copper, or silver, or any other metal or manure out there. For this reason, the power to coin money is given to the government, an is it's "most sacred and conspicuous duty", for if they devolve upon this duty properly, the won't need to encroach upon much else, but if they screw this up, there will be no end of trouble.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Who delegated that authority to it? No INDIVIDUAL has such authority. Therefore no one could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one can delegate an authority he does not have.
The people can and did give this to the government, and they should. Otherwise, it's economic anarchy (aka barter).
LoveIsTruth wrote:Definitions 1, 2, and 4 are negative. Definition 3, is the very definition of Freedom. If that's the definition you have in mind, I am honored to agree with you. It's too bad, however, that one word means almost opposite things. Therefore I prefer the word Liberty.
So be it, then we both are in favor of #3, but the way to get there is not yet agreed upon, and I might mention, ironically, we cannot attain that level until there is a union of faith, not a dissolution of it.
Not at all. If the authority is properly delegated to the government, I am all for it. But if government starts excersizing authority that no one could have delegated to it, then I am against it, because such government is no longer by and for the people, but an usurping tyrant, that manufactures its own authority and violates the rights and property of sovereign individuals. (It is individuals that are sovereign, not the government. Please see The Fundamental Principles of Liberty
I'm not looking up your reference, I understand your point. I agree, that if properly delegated, we are in good hands. The problem is the abuse of that delegation through deceipt, or corruption, or neglect, or even incompetence, all of which factor in to the mess we are in today.
LoveIsTruth wrote:What have I not answered, Sir?
I cannot remember, that is a casualty of this style of way of posting. (tit for tat)
LoveIsTruth wrote:Is it a news for you that the government has no intention of paying back its loans? ... All of the above.
My point is that you not confuse MPE with the evil systems we see all around us.
LoveIsTruth wrote:They can't pay it back because ALL money in existence is debt bearing interest. Before you scream Aha! Let me say: Your so called solution is to outlaw interest, which would violate a fundamental principle of liberty by requiring the government to have an authority that no one could have delegated to it. My solution is to legalize Freedom and to allow Free Competition in Currencies which will kill fiat debt based interest bearing system, because it CANNOT exist without a government forced monopoly. My solution is in harmony with Fundamental Principles of Liberty, your solution violates them. Besides, if you have Free Competition in Currencies, your system is welcome to exist side by side with gold and silver, for instance, and then come and see what most people will choose. (I give you a hint, absent government coercion, majority of people will prefer gold, silver or some other 100% commodity based, interest free currency, because it is THE most stable, and THE most honest monetary system known to man. Your system may also exist, but it will not catch majority of the market. But what the heck, you will still be free to use YOUR system, as long as you do not FORCE anyone to do the same. See, Freedom works for everyone!
Compound interest would be not outlawed directly, but as a form of FRAUD, it would have to go. We already have laws regarding fraud, we just have to use them, but since the entire system by which loans are issued is totally obfuscated, we have no power to prosecute other than the odd brave / enlightened man here and there. You wish competition in currency, I say no, cooperation in currency, free commerce in everything else. Look inside your body: a common circulation system, and every member performs to the best of it's ability be it lungs, eyes, heart, brain, skin, gonads, what have you. You get the idea. Society is the same: a common money, then everything else is fair game, but not the money itself. That is the love that get's us into trouble, and is what is meant when the love of money is called "the root of all evil", where love means the money becomes your one and only fixation, which it is now for most people.
LoveIsTruth wrote:If they don't have enough they should not be loaning what does not exist, because that would be fraud, my friend!
Friendly or not, if they don't have it, commerce will stagnate and die, and that is historical.
LoveIsTruth wrote:As I said, "fractional reserve banking" is a blatant fraud. It is allowed to exist only because of a corrupt and immoral law. Remove that immoral force (all law is force) and this fraud comes crushing down.
I am not in favor of fractional reserve banking, neither are you, but unfortunately for you, that is what will happen before the horn even sounds to start the game with gold again.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Free Competition in Currencies is the answer. Let the fraudulent unstable currencies (like FRN's or your Canadian unbacked paper) die by the hand of Free Market by being in direct competition with say gold, or silver currency. And let the people CHOOSE which currency preserves their purchasing power better. (I'll give you a hint, it will NOT be the unbacked paper, neither will it be your "promises to pay" no one knows what, but it will be an 100% commodity based currency, because it is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man.) Free Market rules! It is the only thing that actually works!
I appreciate your enthusiasm for your goldbug system, but if you are willing to cut the hyperbole, I'll quit calling you goldbug. The faith and credit of the individual is what backs loans MPE. Are you against faith? Are you against credit? You are in favor of the evils of compound interest, would you count that better than these?
LoveIsTruth wrote:Yeah, I know, right? It's that simple! Isn't it beautiful?
I would love to see a picture of who I'm talking to. No it isn't beautiful, it's historically a total mess.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Yeah, and if anyone is stupid enough to take those loans, they better be ready to pay the interest. And if they don't they SHOULD go bankrupt!
Statements like this is why I called you stupid, because you yourself take those loans "stupid", and as per your wish, bankruptcy is at your doorstep. Enjoy.
LoveIsTruth wrote:As well as it should, if it is a bubble economy. Capital comes from savings, not from printing press.
Capital comes from the efforts of humans to make the planet a better place. Your problem is you think money is capital. That is not correct. Capital is ans ability to get up and dig holes and plant things that will grow, to nail boards together, to program code, to sew clothes, grease wheels. That is the real capital. At the lowest level, trees in the forest are not capital, neither are fish in the sea nor is arable land that is not plowed. Eventually man set's his hand to it and he calls it capital, but money certainly is not capital, is not wealth, but is a medium of exchanging wealth, even FUTURE wealth.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Food is still valuable. There will still be supply and demand. You have free competition in Currencies. No one is FORCING any one to use or not to use a currency. So you can still deal in unbacked paper, AS WELL AS in gold and silver, or anything else. Thus the Free Market will gradually refine the most honest and the most stable currency, just as Free Market perfects any other product. It is the smoothest and the most harmonious transition from utter fraud known as fiat, to an honest and stable monetary system. Otherwise there WILL be chaos, if this paper fraud is allowed to self-destruct before an alternative is available. Thus Free Competition in Currencies is the correct solution.
We should create a game. You can be the goldbug banker, I'll let my followers be their own creditors, and we'll see who wins all around.
LoveIsTruth wrote: As I said before, Free Competition in Currencies does NOT require banks to stop loaning their worthless paper, they still do that. But they cannot forbid other currencies exist and develop SIDE BY SIDE with them. That is a much smoother transition than what you are describing. All we are advocating is legalization of Freedom!
We're in circles here.
ithink wrote:That's not what it says. Learn to read. He said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." So interest is just fine, because it is the cost of someone else using your money, while you can't. It makes perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense that Christ was promoting what was forbidden -- from his own mouth?
LoveIsTruth wrote:Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. ...Yeah, because you have problem with English or with reason. But truth speaks for itself.
You keep telling me to learn English, but you can't understand what I am saying after I've written 10,000 words on the subject. Flexible currency does not mean it's value changes, it means it is able to expand and contract exactly as the market demands. The only way this can happen is to use promises to pay. Gold cannot do this, it is inflexible, which is a very common economic term, one you should be well versed in if you are as advanced as you pretend to be. The fact you overlooked this speaks volumes.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Nobody said it was. But to FORCE your contracts as money upon third parties via government coercion is wicked.
Sigh, we just went over this 3 paragraphs up.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Having flexibility to enter into a proper contract is fine. But you have no "flexibility" to force those contracts as money upon third parties that have NOT contracted with you! If they want to, its fine. But they should be free to refuse and to transact in gold and silver (or anything else for that matter), if they choose.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Really? Do you see a lot of people transacting in gold and silver now? They do not, because government puts them in jail if they try. (Surprised?) It's a fact.
In the US, but the're coining money, which has been reserved to congress. You should know that, Ron Paul talks about that.
LoveIsTruth wrote:I promote Freedom. Do you have a problem with that?
You say you promote freedom with your mouth from time to time, but you actually promote a system of bondage, and yes I have a problem with that.
I agree, except for banning interest. Do you have the moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use interest? No. Therefore you cannot ask your government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you yourself do not have. (Benson Principle
Banning interest, by calling it the fraud that it is, is the essence of this conversation, because it is mathematically impossible to work with.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Yes. This pertains to American people allowing their government to grant an issuance monopoly to a private banking cartel. I am against that. No government forced monopolies are allowed in a Free Market. Thus bad currencies die, and good and stable ones live. Simple. Money is just another product in a free market! Nothing magical about it.
But you missed half the quote. The inflationary pressure, and deflationary pressure, are the problem. And that happens through compound interest, and has nothing to do with the business cycle.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Learn to read! I underlined it for you. "It is very possible" means "Yes," if you didn't know. But it is a qualified "yes."
Yes to what? Compound interest systems will all fail? You agree to that?
LoveIsTruth wrote:The same tax penalties on gold transactions exist in all the countries you mentioned. So in essence, gold transactions are outlawed by the FORCE of taxation.
That is not correct. You have no pervasive knowledge of tax laws punishing gold transactions in any country. Pawn shops near here buy gold, and gold buyers are frequently in town, and they pay no more tax than joe the bartender or hairdresser.
Not really. Prohibitions on usury were a form of charity among the Israelites. It does not however mean that usury is in of itself immoral. Otherwise why would Jesus sanction its use? Said he: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27
No, usury was totally banned except in some special cases for your enemies, because usury is an act of war, just like a naval blockade.
LoveIsTruth wrote:That is simply false. There is ALWAYS enough gold! In fact the total amount of gold in the world is almost irrelevant. Theoretically ANY amount of gold can support world economy. The fact that it is scarce makes it perform its function as the medium of exchange even better!
Idiot, the world uses compound interest which is an exponential process which will take a while to get going, but in the end will quickly rise to infinity. Bacteria can't even grow exponentially for more than a 24 hours in a petri dish, then they max out and start to die and level off. Nuclear reactions are the same. There is no natural process that can sustain anything that is exponential, so why you think there is enough gold is beyond me. Artificial paper systems like the FED can't even keep up with compound interest, and somehow if we switch to gold this problem will somehow not just get better, but go away?
LoveIsTruth wrote:Free Market, absent government coerced, artificially fixed exchange rates, sorts it out very well!
History is not on your side. History is very bleak on hard metal systems.
LoveIsTruth wrote:And you are welcome to that system as long as you do not FORCE people to participate in it. It is however IMMORAL to FORCE people to be a part of that system, and to forbid them to transact in anything else they please.
Just give up your force crap, I never said anything about force. It's disingenuous to say the least.
LoveIsTruth wrote:The major danger with that system is that it makes all too easy for a bureaucrat, unchecked by the necessity of physical delivery of gold or silver, to conjure money out of nothing and thus rob everyone via counterfeiting, because as I said before: It is INFINITELY easier to conjure 0's and 1's on a computer than to mine for actual gold. So your system is much more easily corrupted than a real gold or silver system. It's like a locked and unlocked door. You can walk through both, but one is MUCH easier than the other! 100% commodity backing of money is like that lock, that makes legalized, (or illegal) counterfeiting MUCH, MUCH harder.
Well then you'll like MPE, because the mechanism that generates the loans is not entirely in the governments hands, but it is under their jurisdiction, like your constitution does with yours, though it is not followed. There would be brokers that would issue loans (yes, private brokers, you should like that), but they would just be issuing the national currency. Overhead they charge to do this would be added to the fee, but it would have to be competitive, and the government itself would also be issuing loans to anyone who qualified. I say government, but that would be a branch of the government separated, just as you have judicial and executive separated, there would be the financial engine separated as well.
LoveIsTruth wrote:This is why in a truly Free Market, overwhelming majority of people will prefer a 100% commodity backed system, because it is THE most stable and the most honest known to man. But let the people decide. Let both exist side by side, and then come and see which will win most of the market. It's like Zune and iPod. Both have a right to exist, but one is WAY preferred over the other!
Please, my time is limited. You could say it once more or 8 million times more, but you'll never get me back to the vomit, I've been there and done that.
LoveIsTruth wrote:I understand. And so should you. Freedom is the only thing that is moral, and that works. Freedom,--that's all I ask for. Let people transact in what they will without government coercion. Can you understand that? Do you understand that individuals must be free? FREEDOM! Is it clicking yet?
Something is clicking, but does not bode well for you.
I have to ask, that in respect of both of our time, we reduce the tit for tat to running commentary, if that is possible. I cannot justify any more time for this format. I propose just one topic to be discussed, hyperbole aside, and I want your honest answers on it. The question is this: how do you think your gold system will escape the ravages of compound interest, the "most powerful force in the universe" that actually precipitated the failure of the gold standard less than 100 years ago, right there in your own country. As you consider that, consider that Japan became the economic powerhouse in Asia in less than 10 year doing what I suggest, and that Germany not only defeated hyperinflation, but financed a massive war machine that nearly conquered the world, and again, they did this in less than 10 years, and ALL THIS WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD (ON THE GOLD STANDARD) WAS SUFFERING IN DEEP DEPRESSION. Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, and what I have just proposed will be the subject material, and of course, there must be no hyperbole like "it's the best", or "this is great", or "you just know it's better" kind of zealous garbage.
"Sometimes we LDS members seem not as concerned about being the light of the world as being lit up in the lights of the world".