The Nature of Money by Lew Rockwell

[LoveIsTruth]

The Nature of Money and Why It Is Too Important To Be Left In The Hands of Politicians and Bankers.

It needs to be in the hands of the people! Freedom works big time! And it is the only thing that works!


In a word: Brilliant! (Especially at 10 min mark on.)

[LoveIsTruth]

In a word: Brilliant!

I agree with that !

[LoveIsTruth]

In a word: Brilliant!

I agree with that !

I agree with that too!

[ithink]

The Nature of Money and Why It Is Too Important To Be Left In The Hands of Politicians and Bankers.

Interesting statement. And true. But should it be left in the hands of politicians? What about the hands of the people? How do you do that?

[Jason]

The Nature of Money and Why It Is Too Important To Be Left In The Hands of Politicians and Bankers.

Interesting statement. And true. But should it be left in the hands of politicians? What about the hands of the people? How do you do that?

LOL Yeah who exactly do you trust????

[ithink]

The Nature of Money and Why It Is Too Important To Be Left In The Hands of Politicians and Bankers.

Interesting statement. And true. But should it be left in the hands of politicians? What about the hands of the people? How do you do that?

LOL Yeah who exactly do you trust????

Gotta trust someone. The problem is the bankers. Leave them out. See your constitution, it is supposed to be left to the people via congress. Under no circumstances should it be privatized.

[LoveIsTruth]

"The Nature of Money and Why It Is Too Important To Be Left In The Hands of Politicians and Bankers." Interesting statement. And true.

Glad you agree!

What about the hands of the people?

Money should be in the hands of the people, or in other words in the hands of free market. Let the people use whatever they wish as the medium of exchange. Then, naturally, gold and silver and other precious metals will emerge as the preferred medium of exchange because they will be the most stable, the least susceptible to manipulation, and the most honest (that is the most consistent at preserving people's purchasing power).

How do you do that?

Look at Free Competition in Currencies Act written by Ron Paul. It calls for:

• 1) repeal legal tender laws.
  2) eliminate capital gains taxes on gold, silver and other precious metals.
  3) allow the operation of private mints.

Freedom works best!

[LoveIsTruth]

Under no circumstances should it be privatized.

Watch the video at about 10 min mark on.

Money should be private!

Again, Freedom works! The only thing that does work!

[LoveIsTruth]

Silver Shines as an Economic Solution

[Jason]

LOL Yeah who exactly do you trust????

Gotta trust someone. The problem is the bankers. Leave them out. See your constitution, it is supposed to be left to the people via congress. Under no circumstances should it be privatized.

True....although the true root of the problem is wickedness which leads to loss of representation as well as general ignorance of the people as propaganda efforts go expontential.....which of course no metal solution can provide for!

[LoveIsTruth]

LOL Yeah who exactly do you trust????

Gotta trust someone. The problem is the bankers. Leave them out. See your constitution, it is supposed to be left to the people via congress. Under no circumstances should it be privatized.

True....although the true root of the problem is wickedness which leads to loss of representation as well as general ignorance of the people as propaganda efforts go expontential.....which of course no metal solution can provide for!

Money is just another product that people use as a medium of exchange. It is immoral for the government to use force to prevent people, by law or by taxation (as it is now), from using any medium of exchange they please, because NO ONE could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one has such authority. It is that simple. It is a fundamental principle of liberty and it is called The Benson Principle (http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) without which liberty must unavoidably be destroyed. And since people are free, and have no right to force their neighbor to use one medium of exchange over another, therefore it follows that money must be privately owned and privately issued, as any other product.

[Jason]

Gotta trust someone. The problem is the bankers. Leave them out. See your constitution, it is supposed to be left to the people via congress. Under no circumstances should it be privatized.

True....although the true root of the problem is wickedness which leads to loss of representation as well as general ignorance of the people as propaganda efforts go expontential.....which of course no metal solution can provide for!

Money is just another product that people use as a medium of exchange. It is immoral for the government to use force to prevent people, by law or by taxation (as it is now), from using any medium of exchange they please, because NO ONE could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one has such authority. It is that simple. It is a fundamental principle of liberty and it is called The Benson Principle (http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) without which liberty must unavoidably be destroyed. And since people are free, and have no right to force their neighbor to use one medium of exchange over another, therefore it follows that money must be privately owned and privately issued, as any other product.

...in a representative government....the government is the people (by elected proxy).....so your argument is moot!

...if the government isn't a representative government....then that is an entirely separate matter with its own long list of dirty laundry problems.

...if the money is privately owned and privately issued.....LOL that's exactly what we have today!!! FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE

...Unless of course you are trying to claim that the Federal Reserve is the government and not a front corporation for private banks....in which case I would love to see your evidence!!!

[LoveIsTruth]

...in a representative government....the government is the people (by elected proxy).....so your argument is moot!

You seem to like this word "moot." Well, the only thing that is "moot" is your logic, my friend. Yes, in a representative government the government represents (or should represent) the people. But the point I plainly made was that: since the only legitimate authority that the government can have is delegated to it by the governed, and NO ONE has the authority to FORCE his neighbor to transact (or not to transact) in a certain medium of exchange, therefore NO ONE can delegate such authority to the government, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. That's why the people must remain free to transact, unmolested by law or by taxation, in any medium of exchange they choose. (And that, by the way will kill fiat, because it cannot exist without government coercion, where Free Competition in Currencies exists, because it will be rejected in favor of a more honest and a more stable currency, such as a 100% commodity based currency, whose purchasing power cannot be conjured out of nothing, nor stolen by the government's printing press.)

...if the money is privately owned and privately issued.....LOL that's exactly what we have today!!! FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE

The Federal Reserve Note monopoly is ENFORCED by government force via a LAW. Remove that GOVERNMENT force and Federal Reserve Notes will become WORTHLESS overnight!

...Unless of course you are trying to claim that the Federal Reserve is the government and not a front corporation for private banks....in which case I would love to see your evidence!!!

That is exactly what I am saying. And the evidence is that they bought the government, and have laws on the books (corrupt laws at that) making their toilet paper the money, i.e. legalized and monopolized counterfeiting scam. What greater evidence could there be?! Free Competition in Currencies destroys all this shenanigans by the force of Free Market and thus keeps people free from the government forced plunder known as fiat money.

[davedan]

What this man is proposing is not in-line with the Constitution which mandates that the Congress coin the money and regulate its value.

The problem is precisely that the Congress has given our money to private institutions (non-federal central bank) and allows fed-member banks the power to create a majority of the money supply via fractional reserve lending.

Let the Congress create 100% of the money supply and lend it via local banks at simple interest, or fee-based loans (origination fee and monthly service charge). Loans are made as economy needs it and money supply is expanded, but new money is not created when not needed which controls inflation.

Use gold and silver as legal tender. But loans are backed by "real" assets they are used to develop or purchase. Money created by government and lent by Safety Society Banks is never used to speculate but invest in real assets. Venture Capital can be done by other institutions.

No Central Bank
No Fractional Reserve Lending
Simple Interest or fee-based loans but no Usury
Local Administration
No inflation

[Jason]

...in a representative government....the government is the people (by elected proxy).....so your argument is moot!

You seem to like this word "moot." Well, the only thing that is "moot" is your logic, my friend. Yes, in a representative government the government represents (or should represent) the people. But the point I plainly made was that: since the only legitimate authority that the government can have is delegated to it by the governed, and NO ONE has the authority to FORCE his neighbor to transact (or not to transact) in a certain medium of exchange, therefore NO ONE can delegate such authority to the government, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. That's why the people must remain free to transact, unmolested by law or by taxation, in any medium of exchange they choose. (And that, by the way will kill fiat, because it cannot exist without government coercion, where Free Competition in Currencies exists, because it will be rejected in favor of a more honest and a more stable currency, such as a 100% commodity based currency, whose purchasing power cannot be conjured out of nothing, nor stolen by the government's printing press.)

LOL...does seem to be the favorite word of the day with regard to your posts!

Plainly made....yes indeed...lol. Someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to sell in certain medium of exchange? My company sells services all over the world in Euros, dollars, pesos, etc etc etc....and its usually determined by our willingness to transact in that currency as well as the willingess of the other side....no force involved. Could transact in gold if desired.....have you ever tried to ship gold from China to the US? Do you know what it costs just to insure the shipment?

Taxes are a different matter. But yes I know you prefer anarchy over government.

...if the money is privately owned and privately issued.....LOL that's exactly what we have today!!! FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE

The Federal Reserve Note monopoly is ENFORCED by government force via a LAW. Remove that GOVERNMENT force and Federal Reserve Notes will become WORTHLESS overnight!

LOL...IOUs they are. You are probably right....because no one wants to nor is the vast majority capable of making good on those IOUs. Too bad! Prophet says there will be a Day of Reckoning on debt! Also says to pay up on our debts....now is that government force???

...Unless of course you are trying to claim that the Federal Reserve is the government and not a front corporation for private banks....in which case I would love to see your evidence!!!

That is exactly what I am saying. And the evidence is that they bought the government, and have laws on the books (corrupt laws at that) making their toilet paper the money, i.e. legalized and monopolized counterfeiting scam. What greater evidence could there be?! Free Competition in Currencies destroys all this shenanigans by the force of Free Market and thus keeps people free from the government forced plunder known as fiat money.

Exactly what you are saying????

Scam or no scam....people went along with it!

Back to the chicken and the egg and force.....look I'm all for freedom and liberty....BUT your dream could be a nightmare (which is all I'm trying to point out as gold won't resolve the core issues - which we disagree on) and even if not....you still have to implement it by force which ain't gonna happen.

[LoveIsTruth]

Thats not necessarily the Constitution which allows the Congress to coin the money and regulate its value.

The problem is precisely that the Congress has given our money to private institutions (non-federal central bank)

Let the Congress create 100% of the money supply and lend it via local banks at simple interest, or fee-based loans (origination fee and monthly service charge). Loans are made as economy needs it and money supply is expanded, but new money is not created when not needed which controls inflation.

No Central Bank
No Fractional Reserve Lending
Simple Interest or fee-based loans but no Usury
Local Administration
No inflation

The problem is fiat (i.e. legalized counterfeiting established and monopolized by government force). Allow free competition in currencies, and all this fiat fraud comes crashing to an end, because no one likes being plundered.

[Jason]

What this man is proposing is not in-line with the Constitution which mandates that the Congress coin the money and regulate its value.

The problem is precisely that the Congress has given our money to private institutions (non-federal central bank) and allows fed-member banks create a majority of the money supply via fractional reserve lending.

Let the Congress create 100% of the money supply and lend it via local banks at simple interest, or fee-based loans (origination fee and monthly service charge). Loans are made as economy needs it and money supply is expanded, but new money is not created when not needed which controls inflation.

Use gold and silver as legal tender. But loans are backed by "real" assets they are used to develop or purchase. Money created by government and lent by Safety Society Banks is never used to speculate but invest in real assets. Venture Capital can be done by other institutions.

No Central Bank
No Fractional Reserve Lending
Simple Interest or fee-based loans but no Usury
Local Administration
No inflation

Amen and amen!!! ....interest free money is the key!

[LoveIsTruth]

Taxes are a different matter.

Taxes are the key to this. They prevent gold and silver being used as money via taxation of gold and silver.

But yes I know you prefer anarchy over government.

I prefer Liberty and a proper role of government as defined by the Benson Principle. (Look it up http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

.....look I'm all for freedom and liberty....BUT your dream could be a nightmare (which is all I'm trying to point out as gold won't resolve the core issues - which we disagree on) and even if not....you still have to implement it by force which ain't gonna happen.

That's the whole point! You do NOT need force to implement an honest monetary system. People will except it willingly! ONLY FIAT needs government FORCE.

[LoveIsTruth]

Amen and amen!!! ....interest free money is the key!

Honest money, who's purchasing power cannot be conjured out of nothing, nor be stolen by government's printing press, is the key.

[Jason]

Taxes are a different matter.

Taxes are the key to this. They prevent gold and silver being used as money via taxation of gold and silver.

But yes I know you prefer anarchy over government.

I prefer Liberty and a proper role of government as defined by the Benson Principle. (Look it up http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

.....look I'm all for freedom and liberty....BUT your dream could be a nightmare (which is all I'm trying to point out as gold won't resolve the core issues - which we disagree on) and even if not....you still have to implement it by force which ain't gonna happen.

That's the whole point! You do NOT need force to implement an honest monetary system. People will except it willingly! ONLY FIAT needs government FORCE.

Well personally I don't see the fraud in fiat and I fail to see the government force except with regard to taxes....perhaps you can shed some light on that.

If I work for fiat wages and then can turn around and go to CostCo and exchange those fiat wages for goods of my choosing....how is that fraud???

[Jason]

Amen and amen!!! ....interest free money is the key!

Honest money, who's purchasing power cannot be conjured out of nothing, nor be stolen by government's printing press, is the key.

...again with the fraud....the government doesn't have a printing press - FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES.....also purchasing power conjured out of nothing is called debt - are you saying abolish debt as well???

[LoveIsTruth]

Well personally I don't see the fraud in fiat and I fail to see the government force except with regard to taxes....perhaps you can shed some light on that.

Gladly. Fiat money is fraud, because, by definition, it is conjuring purchasing power out of nothing (it is backed by nothing), and then FORCING people to accept and to transact in it. Thus fiat, allows the government and the banksters who bought the government, to get goods and services from the people in exchange for worthless paper or for computer 0's and 1's (digital money). So, in essence, what fiat is, is nothing more than legalized counterfeiting, that allows the issuer of this "money" to receive SOMETHING for NOTHING, which is a definition of plunder and fraud. Force? Well, fiat cannot exist unless you use government force, to prevent the people by law or by taxation, from using alternative currencies. The truth is, if competing currencies, such as gold, silver, platinum, or any other commodity currency is allowed to compeet, (unmolested by law or taxation), side by side with fiat money, fiat will ALWAYS, overwhelmingly be rejected by a free market in favor of more honest and more stable currencies, because no one likes being plundered! That's why you have to use government FORCE to prevent competing (especially commodity based) currencies from entering the market and being used as the medium of exchange. Thus fiat is force, because it cannot exist without it,--the force to prevent competition of currencies in a free market, by force of law or taxation. Freedom demands free competition in currencies, and thus is the opposite of fiat, which simply CANNOT exist when such competition exists, because again, it will be rejected by a free market, in favor of a more honest and more stable currency, especially an 100% commodity based currency, which is the most stable, and the most honest monetary system known to man.

If I work for fiat wages and then can turn around and go to CostCo and exchange those fiat wages for goods of my choosing....how is that fraud???

You are not committing fraud. The government, or the banks that issued that unbacked money have committed fraud, because they conjured this purchasing power out of nothing, and then used it to get goods and services in exchange for NOTHING. That is the fraud. i.e. legalized COUNTERFEITING, i.e. something for nothing.

[Jason]

Well personally I don't see the fraud in fiat and I fail to see the government force except with regard to taxes....perhaps you can shed some light on that.

Gladly. Fiat money is fraud, because, by definition, it is conjuring purchasing power out of nothing (it is backed by nothing), and then FORCING people to accept and to transact in it. Thus fiat, allows the government and the banksters who bought the government, to get goods and services from the people in exchange for worthless paper or for computer 0's and 1's (digital money). So, in essence, what fiat is, is nothing more than legalized counterfeiting, that allows the issuer of this "money" to receive SOMETHING for NOTHING, which is a definition of plunder and fraud. Force? Well, fiat cannot exist unless you use government force, to prevent the people by law or by taxation, from using alternative currencies. The truth is, if competing currencies, such as gold, silver, platinum, or any other commodity currency is allowed to compeet, (unmolested by law or taxation), side by side with fiat money, fiat will ALWAYS, overwhelmingly be rejected by a free market in favor of more honest and more stable currencies, because no one likes being plundered! That's why you have to use government FORCE to prevent competing (especially commodity based) currencies from entering the market and being used as the medium of exchange. Thus fiat is force, because it cannot exist without it,--the force to prevent competition of currencies in a free market, by force of law or taxation. Freedom demands free competition in currencies, and thus is the opposite of fiat, which simply CANNOT exist when such competition exists, because again, it will be rejected by a free market, in favor of a more honest and more stable currency, especially an 100% commodity based currency, which is the most stable, and the most honest monetary system known to man.

If I work for fiat wages and then can turn around and go to CostCo and exchange those fiat wages for goods of my choosing....how is that fraud???

You are not committing fraud. The government, or the banks that issued that unbacked money have committed fraud, because they conjured this purchasing power out of nothing, and then used it to get goods and services in exchange for NOTHING. That is the fraud. i.e. legalized COUNTERFEITING, i.e. something for nothing.

....of course if its a representative government authorized by the people....and the people are free to choose whether to transact (whether they realize it or not)....then is it really fraud...or just an additional tax?

See if it really was worth nothing....nobody would use it. Instead its generally accepted as money or tool to facilitate transactions.

[LoveIsTruth]

....of course if its a representative government authorized by the people....and the people are free to choose whether to transact (whether they realize it or not)....then is it really fraud...or just an additional tax?

Do you have the moral right to use FORCE on your neighbor to prevent him by law or taxation from using say gold as money? No. Therefore you cannot delegate this authority to your government, because YOU do not have such authority, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. (See Benson Principle http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

See if it really was worth nothing....nobody would use it. Instead its generally accepted as money or tool to facilitate transactions.

It costs practically nothing to the banks or to the government to produce this "money"; so they are receiving SOMETHING for NOTHING, i.e. goods ans services for worthless 0's and 1's, which (SOMETHING for NOTHING) is a definition of fraud and plunder.

You may say it is a tax. Well, do you have a moral right to forcibly extract wealth from you neighbor? The answer is NO! Therefore you cannot delegate such authority to your government to do it in your behalf, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. (See http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread ... -Amendment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

[Jason]

....of course if its a representative government authorized by the people....and the people are free to choose whether to transact (whether they realize it or not)....then is it really fraud...or just an additional tax?

Do you have the moral right to use FORCE on your neighbor to prevent him by law or taxation from using say gold as money? No. Therefore you cannot delegate this authority to your government, because YOU do not have such authority, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. (See Benson Principle http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 19&t=12347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

See if it really was worth nothing....nobody would use it. Instead its generally accepted as money or tool to facilitate transactions.

It costs practically nothing to the banks or to the government to produce this "money"; so they are receiving SOMETHING for NOTHING, i.e. goods ans services for worthless 0's and 1's, which (SOMETHING for NOTHING) is a definition of fraud and plunder.

You may say it is a tax. Well, do you have a moral right to forcibly extract wealth from you neighbor? The answer is NO! Therefore you cannot delegate such authority to your government to do it in your behalf, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. (See http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread ... -Amendment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

In a representative government....where both you and your neighbor agree to representation via proxy....which then creates the money....how is that stealing?

You talk about gold as money....but gold is a commodity unless the people as a whole recognize it as money and treat it accordingly (some sort of law concerning weights or measures or values)....otherwise you are just bartering....which again seems to be all that you are recommending under the twisted version of the Benson principle.

Granted that the current system is perverted....but you aren't suggesting anything better!