The Nature of Money by Lew Rockwell

[LoveIsTruth]

Who delegated that authority to it? No INDIVIDUAL has such authority. Therefore no one could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one can delegate an authority he does not have.

The people can and did give this to the government, and they should. Otherwise, it's economic anarchy (aka barter).

We are talking about the power of the government to force you to accept other people's contracts (not your contracts) as money; or to force everyone to transact in the same currency. How can they give that power to the government when they themselves don't have it? And if there is no FORCE, then we have Free Competition in Currencies. Simple.

Compound interest would be not outlawed directly, but as a form of FRAUD, it would have to go.

It is not fraud if you voluntarily and knowingly agreed to it. If there was no full disclosure or not full understanding, then you have a case, otherwise it is binding. If you knowingly and with full understanding make a promise to give away everything you have to someone without asking anything in return, you are bound by that promise. You are free to make any contract, as long as both parties understand exactly the terms. It is a fundamental principle of liberty. It is not fraud. Therefore you cannot forbid it.

You wish competition in currency, I say no,

You have no right to say "no" because it is not your call. It is NOT up to you to dictate to me what I choose to transact in. And since it is not your authority, you cannot delegate this power to the government to force me in your behalf. (Benson Principle) This is the key of our disagreement.

cooperation in currency, free commerce in everything else. ... Society is the same: a common money, then everything else is fair game, but not the money itself.

There is nothing special about money that makes it an exception to the rule. It's just another product in a free market. And cooperation in currency will occur quite naturally, just like cooperation in milk or cement or anything else. Supply and demand. Money is just another product. And the free market will naturally perfect a currency as it perfects any other product. The most convenient and the most stable currency (probably gold or silver) will take most of the market without any coercion, simply because more people will prefer it.

As I said, "fractional reserve banking" is a blatant fraud. It is allowed to exist only because of a corrupt and immoral law. Remove that immoral force (all law is force) and this fraud comes crushing down.

I am not in favor of fractional reserve banking, neither are you, but unfortunately for you, that is what will happen before the horn even sounds to start the game with gold again.

Not necessarily. Run on the bank is the greatest fear of any bankster. Absent government force legalizing fractional reserve fraud, or shielding the bankster from the demands of the depositors, a bankster caught doing this will go to jail for fraud.

The faith and credit of the individual is what backs loans MPE.

Which means exactly nothing is backing it! It is as uncertain as air!

Are you against faith?

Yes. Faith in a falsehood is worse than no faith at all!

Are you against credit?

Yes! Credit of what exactly? Of more promises to pay no one knows what? No thanks. I'll take gold if I have choice.

Yeah, and if anyone is stupid enough to take those loans, they better be ready to pay the interest. And if they don't they SHOULD go bankrupt!

Statements like this is why I called you stupid,

I would venture to say that the word better characterizes you. Don't forget to mention it to the admins.

As well as it should, if it is a bubble economy. Capital comes from savings, not from printing press.

money certainly is not capital, is not wealth, but is a medium of exchanging wealth, even FUTURE wealth.

You are right, fraudulent unbacked money is not capital. Honest 100% commodity based money is capital because of its intrinsic value.

Food is still valuable. There will still be supply and demand. You have free competition in Currencies. No one is FORCING any one to use or not to use a currency. So you can still deal in unbacked paper, AS WELL AS in gold and silver, or anything else. Thus the Free Market will gradually refine the most honest and the most stable currency, just as Free Market perfects any other product. It is the smoothest and the most harmonious transition from utter fraud known as fiat, to an honest and stable monetary system. Otherwise there WILL be chaos, if this paper fraud is allowed to self-destruct before an alternative is available. Thus Free Competition in Currencies is the correct solution.

We should create a game. You can be the goldbug banker, I'll let my followers be their own creditors, and we'll see who wins all around.

Exactly! That's what Free Competition in Currencies is! I am all for that, and always was. It is called Freedom.

As I said before, Free Competition in Currencies does NOT require banks to stop loaning their worthless paper, they can still do that. But they cannot forbid other currencies exist and develop SIDE BY SIDE with them. That is a much smoother transition than what you are describing. All we are advocating is legalization of Freedom!

We're in circles here.

Yep, it takes two. Are you against Freedom and Free Competition in Currencies? If yes, you are in violation of Fundamental Principles of liberty, and don't have a leg to stand on! YOU have NO RIGHT to dictate to people what to transact it, because by doing so you would be VIOLATING THEIR PROPERTY. If you are for Free Competition in Currencies. Then we are on the same page, and could stop this debate, because we are in agreement.

That's not what it says. Learn to read. He said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." So interest is just fine, because it is the cost of someone else using your money, while you can't. It makes perfect sense.

It makes perfect sense that Christ was promoting what was forbidden -- from his own mouth?

I'll say it again. Prohibition on usury was a form of charity among the Israelites, just like a commandment to help the poor was a form or charity. It does NOT however mean that usury is evil in and of itself. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." To contrast: plunder is evil in and of itself. Jesus would never sanction that. Get it? He did NOT say: "Thou oughtest robbed someone, so I could get more money." Do you get the difference?

Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. ...Yeah, because you have problem with English or with reason. But truth speaks for itself.

Flexible currency does not mean it's value changes, it means it is able to expand and contract exactly as the market demands. The only way this can happen is to use promises to pay. Gold cannot do this, it is inflexible,

Gold and silver supply do grow proportionate to the size of economy. There is no problem there.

But to FORCE your contracts as money upon third parties via government coercion is wicked.

Sigh, we just went over this 3 paragraphs up. #-o

I must have missed it. If you are for Free Competition in Currencies, then we are in agreement, and have nothing else to debate.

Having flexibility to enter into a proper contract is fine. But you have no "flexibility" to force those contracts as money upon third parties that have NOT contracted with you! If they want to, its fine. But they should be free to refuse and to transact in gold and silver (or anything else for that matter), if they choose.

ditto :ymsigh:

Just say it: Are you for Free Competition in Currencies? If yes, we agree and are done.

In the US, but the're coining money, which has been reserved to congress.

That was a mistake and a flaw in the original Constitution, because it paved the way to the debacle and fraud we now have. This said, the US Constitution does not prohibit private currencies from operating. Free Competition in Currencies keeps the government and the banksters in check, preventing them from debasing the currency, because if they do, people will leave their currency and use another one. Government forced monopoly on the medium of exchange removes that check and allows the government and banksters to plunder the people via legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Remove that monopoly, and this fraud dies by the hand of Free Market, as any substandard or inferior product dies by the hand of Free Market. Get it?

I agree, except for banning interest. Do you have the moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use interest? No. Therefore you cannot ask your government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you yourself do not have. (Benson Principle)

Banning interest, by calling it the fraud that it is, is the essence of this conversation, because it is mathematically impossible to work with.

Interest is NOT fraud. If ALL money is NOT debt, then it is possible to work.

Yes. This pertains to American people allowing their government to grant an issuance monopoly to a private banking cartel. I am against that. No government forced monopolies are allowed in a Free Market. Thus bad currencies die, and good and stable ones live. Simple. Money is just another product in a free market! Nothing magical about it.

But you missed half the quote. The inflationary pressure, and deflationary pressure, are the problem. And that happens through compound interest, and has nothing to do with the business cycle.

Inflation and deflation can be done even without interest, but by pure counterfeiting, and then removing money from circulation. So it is the conjuring of purchasing power out of nothing (i.e. counterfeiting) IS the problem. Free Competition in Currencies ends that.

The same tax penalties on gold transactions exist in all the countries you mentioned. So in essence, gold transactions are outlawed by the FORCE of taxation.

That is not correct. You have no pervasive knowledge of tax laws punishing gold transactions in any country. Pawn shops near here buy gold, and gold buyers are frequently in town, and they pay no more tax than joe the bartender or hairdresser.

That is the point! Can you imagine going to the bank to change $5 into quarters and paying a TAX on the transaction? But that is exactly what is going on when gold or silver is used as MONEY! This ought not to be! This is how governments prevent gold and silver currencies from operating by the FORCE of TAXATION.

Prohibitions on usury were a form of charity among the Israelites. It does not however mean that usury is in of itself immoral. Otherwise why would Jesus sanction its use? Said he: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27).

No, usury was totally banned except in some special cases for your enemies, because usury is an act of war, just like a naval blockade.

So you are saying Jesus encouraged his followers to wage war and to plunder people so he could get more money? That is entirely false!

There is ALWAYS enough gold! In fact the total amount of gold in the world is almost irrelevant. Theoretically ANY amount of gold can support world economy. The fact that it is scarce makes it perform its function as the medium of exchange even better!

Idiot,

I beg to differ. You are the idiot, Sir.

the world uses compound interest which is an exponential process which will take a while to get going, but in the end will quickly rise to infinity. Bacteria can't even grow exponentially for more than a 24 hours in a petri dish, then they max out and start to die and level off. Nuclear reactions are the same. There is no natural process that can sustain anything that is exponential, so why you think there is enough gold is beyond me.

You amuse that compound interest is collected indefinitely (which is the case when ALL money is debt), but it is not the case when people have a debt free money available, like a 100% commodity base, interest free money.

Artificial paper systems like the FED can't even keep up with compound interest, and somehow if we switch to gold this problem will somehow not just get better, but go away?

Exactly. This is why banksters did away with gold, because they could not charge interest INDEFINITELY with it. It prevented the plunder, because it is impossible to conjure gold out of nothing. When gold is money, it is not debt. It is a real commodity with intrinsic value. If I mined it, or bought it from a mint, it is debt free, interest free money. Banksters HATED that. That's why they outlawed gold as the medium of exchange by the FORCE of TAXATION.

Free Market, absent government coerced, artificially fixed exchange rates, sorts it out very well!

History is not on your side. History is very bleak on hard metal systems.

I beg to disagree. When US was mostly on gold, interest free standard in the 1800's it experienced unprecedented prosperity and growth.

And you are welcome to that system as long as you do not FORCE people to participate in it. It is however IMMORAL to FORCE people to be a part of that system, and to forbid them to transact in anything else they please.

Just give up your force crap, I never said anything about force. It's disingenuous to say the least.

Really? You are the one who said there must be one currency. Did you mean to FORCE it upon the people, or you prefer the Free Market determine what people will choose? So I will "give up your force crap" just as soon as you give it up, and NOT until then! You first, Sir.!

The major danger with that system is that it makes all too easy for a bureaucrat, unchecked by the necessity of physical delivery of gold or silver, to conjure money out of nothing and thus rob everyone via counterfeiting, because as I said before: It is INFINITELY easier to conjure 0's and 1's on a computer than to mine for actual gold. So your system is much more easily corrupted than a real gold or silver system. It's like a locked and unlocked door. You can walk through both, but one is MUCH easier than the other! 100% commodity backing of money is like that lock, that makes legalized, (or illegal) counterfeiting MUCH, MUCH harder.

Well then you'll like MPE, because the mechanism that generates the loans is not entirely in the governments hands, but it is under their jurisdiction, like your constitution does with yours, though it is not followed. There would be brokers that would issue loans (yes, private brokers, you should like that), but they would just be issuing the national currency. Overhead they charge to do this would be added to the fee, but it would have to be competitive, and the government itself would also be issuing loans to anyone who qualified. I say government, but that would be a branch of the government separated, just as you have judicial and executive separated, there would be the financial engine separated as well.

That does not solve the problem of legalized or illegal counterfeiting. As history teaches, when "money" is paper or (computer 0's and 1's) the temptation is too great for both the government and the banksters, not to conjure purchasing power out of nothing. 100% commodity based currency prevents that fraud, just like a lock prevents walking through the door. You can still break through the locked door, but it is MUCH, MUCH harder than unlocked door. Commodity backing is just that LOCK, that protects the purchasing power of money. This is WHY 100% commodity based currency is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man (did I say that already? O, yes I did, but it bears repeating, because you don't seem to get it. )

This is why in a truly Free Market, overwhelming majority of people will prefer a 100% commodity backed system, because it is THE most stable and the most honest known to man. But let the people decide. Let both exist side by side, and then come and see which will win most of the market. It's like Zune and iPod. Both have a right to exist, but one is WAY preferred over the other!

Please, my time is limited. You could say it once more or 8 million times more, but you'll never get me back ... , I've been there and done that.

Feel free to bail, I accept your defeat.

Cheers!

I understand. And so should you. Freedom is the only thing that is moral, and that works. Freedom,--that's all I ask for. Let people transact in what they will without government coercion. Can you understand that? Do you understand that individuals must be free? FREEDOM! Is it clicking yet?

Something is clicking, but does not bode well for you.

Would that be your stubborn ego?

I propose just one topic to be discussed, hyperbole aside, and I want your honest answers on it. The question is this: how do you think your gold system will escape the ravages of compound interest,

Simple. In a gold system not all money is debt. Therefore there is no interest to be collected. As for those who would borrow gold at an interest, they better pay or go bankrupt, because they defaulted on their contract. Thus these too things: interest free gold money, and bankruptcy of those who borrow too much, protects the system, and keeps it going indefinitely.

that actually precipitated the failure of the gold standard less than 100 years ago, right there in your own country.

Gold system did NOT fail. It was outlawed, because it prevented the banksters from plundering the people so much the more.

As you consider that, ... that Germany not only defeated hyperinflation, but financed a massive war machine that nearly conquered the world, and again, they did this in less than 10 years,

Learn your history. Hitler (as well as Lenin and Stalin) were bankrolled from the Wall street in US, with the money plundered from the middle class via legalized counterfeiting and inflation.

and ALL THIS WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD (ON THE GOLD STANDARD) WAS SUFFERING IN DEEP DEPRESSION.

Hence the depression.

Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, ... ?

No thanks. This thread is enough for me.


Thanks for your responses.

Good luck.

[ithink]

Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, ... ?

No thanks. This thread is enough for me.

Thanks for your responses.

Good luck.

With all due respect, I just said I don't have the time to continue this tit for tat. If you would respect my time and the fact I have 7 mouths to feed and raise, I would appreciate it.

We've now gone around in circles three times. One question remains unanswered: why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history), and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history).

[ithink]

Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, ... ?

No thanks. This thread is enough for me.

Thanks for your responses.

Good luck.

With all due respect, I just said I don't have the time to continue this tit for tat. If you would respect my time and the fact I have 7 mouths to feed and raise, I would appreciate it.

We've now gone around in circles three times. One question remains unanswered: why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history), and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history).

Meanwhile, I'll quote to you the answer that makes better than your goldbug system:

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers..... The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprises, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be the master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power." Abraham Lincoln

[Jason]

Meanwhile, I'll quote to you the answer that makes better than your goldbug system:

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers..... The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprises, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be the master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power." Abraham Lincoln

That evil tyrant put to death by the bankers and revered by the prophets.....no way he had the answer [sarcasm off]....that's not what my Rockefeller/Volker (big banking interests) funded history teachers (MISES) have told me....[sarcasm off twice]

[LoveIsTruth]

Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, ... ?

No thanks. This thread is enough for me.

Thanks for your responses.

Good luck.

One question remains unanswered: why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history), and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history).

It's the other way around: Gold destroyed compound interest. That's why they outlawed the gold.


As for the paper, it needs to die because it is a fraud.

[LoveIsTruth]

Meanwhile, I'll quote to you the answer that makes better than your goldbug system:

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers..... The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprises, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be the master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power." Abraham Lincoln

And he was wrong, as I already said. He wanted the counterfeiting monopoly in the hands of trustworthy politicians, instead of big bad banksters. Yes, that makes me feel much better. ...

[ithink]

One question remains unanswered: why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history), and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history).

It's the other way around: Gold destroyed compound interest. That's why they outlawed the gold.


As for the paper, it needs to die because it is a fraud.

You sir, are a complete idiot. Compound interest (not paper) is the most powerful force in the universe: Albert Einstein was right on that. Bill Still, Alex Jones, Winston Churchill, Patrick Carmack and many others also do not share your point of view.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4380847659" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But you don't need to be Albert Einstein to realize this, you only need grade 3 math. You sir, are attempting to refute grade 3 math with your hyperbole and rhetoric. That is why I called you the stupidest person I have ever conversed with on this subject. My 10 year old get's it, and has since he was 8. You sir, are less intelligent than he.

[ithink]

Meanwhile, I'll quote to you the answer that makes better than your goldbug system:

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers..... The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprises, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be the master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power." Abraham Lincoln

That evil tyrant put to death by the bankers and revered by the prophets.....no way he had the answer [sarcasm off]....that's not what my Rockefeller/Volker (big banking interests) funded history teachers (MISES) have told me....

Watch out, you are about to get hit by a wave of zealous hyperbole and doublethink such as you have never experienced before, and it's author will be...... the more aptly named hyperboleistruth.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

It's the other way around: Gold destroyed compound interest. That's why they outlawed the gold.

=)) It's was the reluctance of the bankers to get off the gold standard the lengthened the great depression. Say what you want, Gold is the bankers favorite currency. Just wait... There is a good reason why the IMF, WB, Central banks are buying up all the gold and have and continue to advocate a one world currency, a sound and honest money system backed by gold. As does Ron Paul. Let our labor compete in the "free Market" with slave labor around the world and see first hand what happens.

As for the paper, it needs to die because it is a fraud.

What's more evil? Paper or Usury?

[ithink]

And he was wrong, as I already said. He wanted the counterfeiting monopoly in the hands of trustworthy politicians, instead of big bad banksters. Yes, that makes me feel much better. ...

Here is something that I'm sure will make you feel better, since you've clearly told us which side you are on:

"If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe." London Times

Of course the policy referred to is what Lincoln was doing -- printing greenbacks. What a wicked man he was -- going about setting up a system that would result in the destruction of "every monarch on the globe", and that by their own mouth. Funny how the BoM promises us not kings or queens, but when you still see kings and queens, you can tell that the answer which we have been given already, has not been followed, and guys like loveistruth are going to have to answer for it.

[Jason]

What's more evil? Paper or Usury?

Paper backed by gold...that's the ultimate slap in the face.... )

[ithink]

As for the paper, it needs to die because it is a fraud.

What's more evil? Paper or Usury?

Skousen answers for us:

"Right after the Civil War there was considerable talk about reviving Lincoln's brief experiment with the Constitutional monetary system. Had not the European money-trust intervened, it would have no doubt become an established institution." W.Cleon Skousen.

Add Skousen to the list of those who understand what I understand (and others like Jason, SempiternalHarbinger if I read you correctly), and with whom I agree. loveistruth, who are you working for? There just cannot be any other valid explanation for your tenacity against history, and all these great minds, and even against the blood of men like Lincoln himself (I shudder).

[LoveIsTruth]

You sir, are a complete idiot.

Why slander me for telling the truth?

Compound interest (not paper) is the most powerful force in the universe:

How about Micky the Mouse being the greatest power in the universe? Remove government granted monopoly, and this paper empire of counterfeiting and compound interest comes crashing down.


You haven' answered my question though: Are you for allowing Free Competition in Currencies?
I answered your question, now answer mine.

[ithink]

You sir, are a complete idiot.

I slander me for telling the truth?

Compound interest (not paper) is the most powerful force in the universe:

How about Micky the Mouse being the greatest power in the universe? Remove government granted monopoly, and this paper empire of counterfeiting and compound interest comes crashing down.


You haven' answered my question though: Are you for allowing Free Competition in Currencies?
I answered your question, now answer mine.

You are compounding your own stupidity upon yourself. Your assignment is to go and study the difference between slander and libel, then you can come back and lodge a complaint if you must. But before you do, research the word stupid too, for you will need to convince the moderators that your behavior on this thread is not met by that definition either.

Now after all this, you ask me if I am in favor of "Free Competition in Currencies"? I am in favor greater than you are, and I find it totally ironic that where I am for the democratization of money by creation of it by every individual for themselves, you are in favor of a controlled money supply by the plutocrats, so I have to say, you sir are not just stupid, but a stupid plutocrat, for you don't even know what you are in favor of, let alone what I am in favor of.

And no, you still have not answered my question at all, so here it is again: "why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history), and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history)."

[LoveIsTruth]

You sir, are a complete idiot.

Why slander me for telling the truth?

You are compounding your own stupidity upon yourself. Your assignment is to go and study the difference between slander and libel,

Well thank you for that assignment teacher.

Slander = defamation, a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.

Yep, that's you. You sound like a cranky old man whose long held Belief System (BS for short) is being crashed by the force of reason, and you are having a hissing fit over it. Get over it, man. You are kicking against the pricks. I respond to reason. Insults only speak about you and your character.

Now after all this, you ask me if I am in favor of "Free Competition in Currencies"?

Yes, if you don't mind.

I am in favor greater than you are,

Wonderful! Then we are in agreement on the most important point. There is no need to argue any more!

and I find it totally ironic that where I am for the democratization of money by creation of it by every individual for themselves, you are in favor of a controlled money supply by the plutocrats,

Nop. I am for Free Competition in Currencies. Let people transact in whatever they choose, just as you yourself seem to agree.

for you don't even know what you are in favor of, let alone what I am in favor of.

I thought you just said you are in favor of Free Competition in Currencies. Did I misread that?

you still have not answered my question at all, so here it is again: "why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history),

Because it didn't. Rather the gold system destroyed the compound interest, because it was impossible to conjure gold out of nothing. Therefore the US government outlawed gold, via confiscation and taxation, because gold prevented the government and the banksters who bought the government to legally counterfeit and thus plunder the people.


If gold system was destroyed by interest, people would have stopped transacting in gold voluntarily. They didn't. They were FORCED to stop using gold by government decree and by government taxation. So it is government force that ended gold system, not interest. If that immoral government force was removed, people would transact in gold and silver even now; but instead, they are thrown in prison for trying to do that. So gold system did not fail because it was undesirable by the people, but because the government used FORCE to end it, so that the people could not protect their property and purchasing power from being confiscated via legalized counterfeiting and debasing of the currency. That's why I said gold did not fail, it was outlawed.

and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history)."

I admit that; because any debt based fiat system, (where ALL money is debt), must self-destruct because of interest. It is mathematical impossibility to pay those loans back.


However, if money is NOT debt, but a real commodity, then it is mathematically possible to pay the interest on loans that are not too excessive.

[LoveIsTruth]

(I shudder).

Spare me the self-righteous fervor. I respond to reason, not to names of erring men. How can unbacked paper be Constitutional, when the Constitution clearly states that the States should make nothing but gold and silver as payment. English anyone? Besides, we already established that both of us are in favor of Free Competition in Currencies. Then we have nothing else to argue about! Let people transact in what they choose! That's what Freedom is! End of story!

[LoveIsTruth]

What's more evil? Paper or Usury?

Paper backed by gold...that's the ultimate slap in the face.... )

It is nice that the stupidity of your statement has the added benefit of making you smile. Kidding.

[LoveIsTruth]

And he was wrong, as I already said. He wanted the counterfeiting monopoly in the hands of trustworthy politicians, instead of big bad banksters. Yes, that makes me feel much better. ...

Here is something that I'm sure will make you feel better, since you've clearly told us which side you are on:

"If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe." London Times

Of course the policy referred to is what Lincoln was doing -- printing greenbacks. What a wicked man he was -- going about setting up a system that would result in the destruction of "every monarch on the globe", and that by their own mouth. Funny how the BoM promises us not kings or queens, but when you still see kings and queens, you can tell that the answer which we have been given already, has not been followed, and guys like loveistruth are going to have to answer for it.

Since when newspapers are the beacons of truth? Counterfeiting by the government is just as evil ultimately as the counterfeiting by the banksters. Conjuring purchasing power out of nothing is evil, no matter who does it. In the end the same people will end up robbing us if this fraud is permitted to exist! Free Competition in Currencies slays unbacked fiat, and produces a stable and honest monetary system by the force of Free Market. Freedom is the Right solution! It is the only thing that ever works!

[LoveIsTruth]

Gold is the bankers favorite currency.

For themselves, Yes. For the people, No. If gold is bankers' favorite currency, why is then the world awash in paper? Do they not control the governments? Think about it.

What's more evil? Paper or Usury?

Paper.

[ithink]

You sir, are a complete idiot.

Why slander me for telling the truth?

You are compounding your own stupidity upon yourself. Your assignment is to go and study the difference between slander and libel,

Well thank you for that assignment teacher.

Slander = defamation, a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.

Yep, that's you. You sound like a cranky old man whose long held Belief System (BS for short) is being crashed by the force of reason, and you are having a hissing fit over it. Get over it, man. You are kicking against the pricks. I respond to reason. Insults only speak about you and your character.

Now after all this, you ask me if I am in favor of "Free Competition in Currencies"?

Yes, if you don't mind.

I am in favor greater than you are,

Wonderful! Then we are in agreement on the most important point. There is no need to argue any more!

and I find it totally ironic that where I am for the democratization of money by creation of it by every individual for themselves, you are in favor of a controlled money supply by the plutocrats,

Nop. I am for Free Competition in Currencies. Let people transact in whatever they choose, just as you yourself seem to agree.

for you don't even know what you are in favor of, let alone what I am in favor of.

I thought you just said you are in favor of Free Competition in Currencies. Did I misread that?

you still have not answered my question at all, so here it is again: "why you won't admit compound interest destroyed the gold system (this is just history),

Because it didn't. Rather the gold system destroyed the compound interest, because it was impossible to conjure gold out of nothing. Therefore the US government outlawed gold, via confiscation and taxation, because gold prevented the government and the banksters who bought the government to legally counterfeit and thus plunder the people.


If gold system was destroyed by interest, people would have stopped transacting in gold voluntarily. They didn't. They were FORCED to stop using gold by government decree and by government taxation. So it is government force that ended gold system, not interest. If that immoral government force was removed, people would transact in gold and silver even now; but instead, they are thrown in prison for trying to do that. So gold system did not fail because it was undesirable by the people, but because the government used FORCE to end it, so that the people could not protect their property and purchasing power from being confiscated via legalized counterfeiting and debasing of the currency. That's why I said gold did not fail, it was outlawed.

and why you won't admit compound interest is killing the paper system right now (this is just living history)."

I admit that; because any debt based fiat system, (where ALL money is debt), must self-destruct because of interest. It is mathematical impossibility to pay those loans back.


However, if money is NOT debt, but a real commodity, then it is mathematically possible to pay the interest on loans that are not too excessive.

I already asked you to respect my time. I don't have time for tit for tat. It seems you can't even understand the difference between libel and slander even when reading a dictionary. Why is that? Since these topics were resurrected on this forum, I have had a small avalanche of PMs of those that now agree with me, or rather not with me per se (I could not care less about that) but rather with what I am relaying. So keep it up sir, you are making my case for me, but you haven't seemed to figure that out yet.

So if anyone out there agrees with this guy, feel free to make your thoughts known.

[LoveIsTruth]

My case is Freedom, including Free Competition in Currencies.


Honest Money Constitutional Amendment

[ithink]

My case is Freedom, including Free Competition in Currencies.

Then you are for barter. Good luck. Not only a goldbug, but a cave dweller to boot.

[Jason]

My case is Freedom, including Free Competition in Currencies.

Then you are for barter. Good luck. Not only a goldbug, but a cave dweller to boot.

...as well as anti-Constitutional....all while claiming the opposite

[LoveIsTruth]

My case is Freedom, including Free Competition in Currencies.

Then you are for barter. Good luck. Not only a goldbug, but a cave dweller to boot.

I am for Freedom. And if Free Market chooses gold and silver, (as most of the time it does), so be it. People should be free to transact in whatever they please. Besides, I gave you a careful discussion of difference between barter and a 100% commodity based monetary system earlier in this thread. One is a very narrow subset of the other, with 1 or 2 commodities used as the medium of exchange instead of 1,000's of commodities in true barter. You ignored the key difference, and displayed your ignorance and frankly stupidity by this comment. But I come to expect that from you.


At least we agree on the most important point: For a truly Free people, there must exist Free Competition in Currencies, and that solves all of the problems we discussed, Free Market perfecting the medium of exchange.

Good luck.

[LoveIsTruth]

I already asked you to respect my time. I don't have time for tit for tat.

What you cannot find your question and my answer to it prominently displayed among a few paragraphs? I even underlined the answer. May be the problem is that you cannot refute the answer to your question, therefore you pretend I didn't answer it?

It seems you can't even understand the difference between libel and slander even when reading a dictionary. Why is that?

The first two definitions of the word slander were what I needed. The third one is inapplicable in the context. Are you surprised that not all definitions of a word are applicable at all times?

Since these topics were resurrected on this forum, I have had a small avalanche of PMs of those that now agree with me, or rather not with me per se (I could not care less about that) but rather with what I am relaying.

Well that proves everything. Besides, I already told you that your system has a right to exist, but you have no right to force it upon anyone. Hence, when Free Competition in Currencies exist, your system will carve out perhaps 10%-20% of the market, but the majority will prefer a 100% commodity based currency because it is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man, and is the least susceptible to the machinations and counterfeiting of banksters and governments.

So keep it up sir, you are making my case for me, but you haven't seemed to figure that out yet.

I am glad to help.

So if anyone out there agrees with this guy, feel free to make your thoughts known.

Sure. Here are two "guys" that agree with me, you might have heard of them:

“I believe in honest money, the gold and silver coinage of the Constitution, and a circulating medium convertible into such money without loss. I regard it as a flagrant violation of the explicit provisions of the Constitution for the federal government to make it a criminal offense to use gold or silver coin as legal tender or to issue irredeemable paper money.”

(Ezra Taft Benson, God, Family, Country: Our Three Great Loyalties, 1974.)

“I consider that it is not only prudential, but absolutely necessary to protect the inhabitants of this city from being imposed upon by a spurious currency...I think it much safer to go upon the hard money system altogether. I have examined the Constitution upon this subject and find my doubts removed.”

"Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its [the Illinois Legislature] laws, which are unconstitutional? No! We will make a law for gold and silver; and then the state law ceases and we can collect our debts."

(Joseph Smith - Feb. 25, 1843. — Documentary History of the Church 5:289-290)