We are talking about the power of the government to force you to accept other people's contracts (not your contracts) as money; or to force everyone to transact in the same currency. How can they give that power to the government when they themselves don't have it? And if there is no FORCE, then we have Free Competition in Currencies. Simple.ithink wrote:The people can and did give this to the government, and they should. Otherwise, it's economic anarchy (aka barter).LoveIsTruth wrote:Who delegated that authority to it? No INDIVIDUAL has such authority. Therefore no one could have delegated such authority to the government, because no one can delegate an authority he does not have.
It is not fraud if you voluntarily and knowingly agreed to it. If there was no full disclosure or not full understanding, then you have a case, otherwise it is binding. If you knowingly and with full understanding make a promise to give away everything you have to someone without asking anything in return, you are bound by that promise. You are free to make any contract, as long as both parties understand exactly the terms. It is a fundamental principle of liberty. It is not fraud. Therefore you cannot forbid it.ithink wrote:Compound interest would be not outlawed directly, but as a form of FRAUD, it would have to go.
You have no right to say "no" because it is not your call. It is NOT up to you to dictate to me what I choose to transact in. And since it is not your authority, you cannot delegate this power to the government to force me in your behalf. (Benson Principle) This is the key of our disagreement.ithink wrote:You wish competition in currency, I say no,
There is nothing special about money that makes it an exception to the rule. It's just another product in a free market. And cooperation in currency will occur quite naturally, just like cooperation in milk or cement or anything else. Supply and demand. Money is just another product. And the free market will naturally perfect a currency as it perfects any other product. The most convenient and the most stable currency (probably gold or silver) will take most of the market without any coercion, simply because more people will prefer it.ithink wrote:cooperation in currency, free commerce in everything else. ... Society is the same: a common money, then everything else is fair game, but not the money itself.
LoveIsTruth wrote:As I said, "fractional reserve banking" is a blatant fraud. It is allowed to exist only because of a corrupt and immoral law. Remove that immoral force (all law is force) and this fraud comes crushing down.
Not necessarily. Run on the bank is the greatest fear of any bankster. Absent government force legalizing fractional reserve fraud, or shielding the bankster from the demands of the depositors, a bankster caught doing this will go to jail for fraud.ithink wrote:I am not in favor of fractional reserve banking, neither are you, but unfortunately for you, that is what will happen before the horn even sounds to start the game with gold again.
Which means exactly nothing is backing it! It is as uncertain as air!ithink wrote: The faith and credit of the individual is what backs loans MPE.
Yes. Faith in a falsehood is worse than no faith at all!ithink wrote:Are you against faith?
Yes! Credit of what exactly? Of more promises to pay no one knows what? No thanks. I'll take gold if I have choice.ithink wrote:Are you against credit?
LoveIsTruth wrote:Yeah, and if anyone is stupid enough to take those loans, they better be ready to pay the interest. And if they don't they SHOULD go bankrupt!
I would venture to say that the word better characterizes you. Don't forget to mention it to the admins.ithink wrote:Statements like this is why I called you stupid,
LoveIsTruth wrote:As well as it should, if it is a bubble economy. Capital comes from savings, not from printing press.
You are right, fraudulent unbacked money is not capital. Honest 100% commodity based money is capital because of its intrinsic value.ithink wrote:money certainly is not capital, is not wealth, but is a medium of exchanging wealth, even FUTURE wealth.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Food is still valuable. There will still be supply and demand. You have free competition in Currencies. No one is FORCING any one to use or not to use a currency. So you can still deal in unbacked paper, AS WELL AS in gold and silver, or anything else. Thus the Free Market will gradually refine the most honest and the most stable currency, just as Free Market perfects any other product. It is the smoothest and the most harmonious transition from utter fraud known as fiat, to an honest and stable monetary system. Otherwise there WILL be chaos, if this paper fraud is allowed to self-destruct before an alternative is available. Thus Free Competition in Currencies is the correct solution.
Exactly! That's what Free Competition in Currencies is! I am all for that, and always was. It is called Freedom.ithink wrote:We should create a game. You can be the goldbug banker, I'll let my followers be their own creditors, and we'll see who wins all around.
LoveIsTruth wrote: As I said before, Free Competition in Currencies does NOT require banks to stop loaning their worthless paper, they can still do that. But they cannot forbid other currencies exist and develop SIDE BY SIDE with them. That is a much smoother transition than what you are describing. All we are advocating is legalization of Freedom!
Yep, it takes two. Are you against Freedom and Free Competition in Currencies? If yes, you are in violation of Fundamental Principles of liberty, and don't have a leg to stand on! YOU have NO RIGHT to dictate to people what to transact it, because by doing so you would be VIOLATING THEIR PROPERTY. If you are for Free Competition in Currencies. Then we are on the same page, and could stop this debate, because we are in agreement.ithink wrote:We're in circles here.
ithink wrote:That's not what it says. Learn to read. He said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." So interest is just fine, because it is the cost of someone else using your money, while you can't. It makes perfect sense.
I'll say it again. Prohibition on usury was a form of charity among the Israelites, just like a commandment to help the poor was a form or charity. It does NOT however mean that usury is evil in and of itself. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." To contrast: plunder is evil in and of itself. Jesus would never sanction that. Get it? He did NOT say: "Thou oughtest robbed someone, so I could get more money." Do you get the difference?ithink wrote:It makes perfect sense that Christ was promoting what was forbidden -- from his own mouth?
LoveIsTruth wrote:Flexible "dollar" is as evil as flexible yard, or flexible gallon, or flexible mile. It is fraud. ...Yeah, because you have problem with English or with reason. But truth speaks for itself.
Gold and silver supply do grow proportionate to the size of economy. There is no problem there.ithink wrote: Flexible currency does not mean it's value changes, it means it is able to expand and contract exactly as the market demands. The only way this can happen is to use promises to pay. Gold cannot do this, it is inflexible,
LoveIsTruth wrote:But to FORCE your contracts as money upon third parties via government coercion is wicked.
I must have missed it. If you are for Free Competition in Currencies, then we are in agreement, and have nothing else to debate.ithink wrote:Sigh, we just went over this 3 paragraphs up. #-o
LoveIsTruth wrote:Having flexibility to enter into a proper contract is fine. But you have no "flexibility" to force those contracts as money upon third parties that have NOT contracted with you! If they want to, its fine. But they should be free to refuse and to transact in gold and silver (or anything else for that matter), if they choose.
Just say it: Are you for Free Competition in Currencies? If yes, we agree and are done.ithink wrote: ditto :ymsigh:
That was a mistake and a flaw in the original Constitution, because it paved the way to the debacle and fraud we now have. This said, the US Constitution does not prohibit private currencies from operating. Free Competition in Currencies keeps the government and the banksters in check, preventing them from debasing the currency, because if they do, people will leave their currency and use another one. Government forced monopoly on the medium of exchange removes that check and allows the government and banksters to plunder the people via legalized counterfeiting and inflation. Remove that monopoly, and this fraud dies by the hand of Free Market, as any substandard or inferior product dies by the hand of Free Market. Get it?ithink wrote:In the US, but the're coining money, which has been reserved to congress.
LoveIsTruth wrote:I agree, except for banning interest. Do you have the moral right to FORCE your neighbor not to use interest? No. Therefore you cannot ask your government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you yourself do not have. (Benson Principle)
Interest is NOT fraud. If ALL money is NOT debt, then it is possible to work.ithink wrote:Banning interest, by calling it the fraud that it is, is the essence of this conversation, because it is mathematically impossible to work with.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Yes. This pertains to American people allowing their government to grant an issuance monopoly to a private banking cartel. I am against that. No government forced monopolies are allowed in a Free Market. Thus bad currencies die, and good and stable ones live. Simple. Money is just another product in a free market! Nothing magical about it.
Inflation and deflation can be done even without interest, but by pure counterfeiting, and then removing money from circulation. So it is the conjuring of purchasing power out of nothing (i.e. counterfeiting) IS the problem. Free Competition in Currencies ends that.ithink wrote:But you missed half the quote. The inflationary pressure, and deflationary pressure, are the problem. And that happens through compound interest, and has nothing to do with the business cycle.
LoveIsTruth wrote:The same tax penalties on gold transactions exist in all the countries you mentioned. So in essence, gold transactions are outlawed by the FORCE of taxation.
That is the point! Can you imagine going to the bank to change $5 into quarters and paying a TAX on the transaction? But that is exactly what is going on when gold or silver is used as MONEY! This ought not to be! This is how governments prevent gold and silver currencies from operating by the FORCE of TAXATION.ithink wrote: That is not correct. You have no pervasive knowledge of tax laws punishing gold transactions in any country. Pawn shops near here buy gold, and gold buyers are frequently in town, and they pay no more tax than joe the bartender or hairdresser.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Prohibitions on usury were a form of charity among the Israelites. It does not however mean that usury is in of itself immoral. Otherwise why would Jesus sanction its use? Said he: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." (Matthew 25:27).
So you are saying Jesus encouraged his followers to wage war and to plunder people so he could get more money? That is entirely false!ithink wrote: No, usury was totally banned except in some special cases for your enemies, because usury is an act of war, just like a naval blockade.
LoveIsTruth wrote:There is ALWAYS enough gold! In fact the total amount of gold in the world is almost irrelevant. Theoretically ANY amount of gold can support world economy. The fact that it is scarce makes it perform its function as the medium of exchange even better!
I beg to differ. You are the idiot, Sir.ithink wrote: Idiot,
You amuse that compound interest is collected indefinitely (which is the case when ALL money is debt), but it is not the case when people have a debt free money available, like a 100% commodity base, interest free money.ithink wrote:the world uses compound interest which is an exponential process which will take a while to get going, but in the end will quickly rise to infinity. Bacteria can't even grow exponentially for more than a 24 hours in a petri dish, then they max out and start to die and level off. Nuclear reactions are the same. There is no natural process that can sustain anything that is exponential, so why you think there is enough gold is beyond me.
Exactly. This is why banksters did away with gold, because they could not charge interest INDEFINITELY with it. It prevented the plunder, because it is impossible to conjure gold out of nothing. When gold is money, it is not debt. It is a real commodity with intrinsic value. If I mined it, or bought it from a mint, it is debt free, interest free money. Banksters HATED that. That's why they outlawed gold as the medium of exchange by the FORCE of TAXATION.ithink wrote:Artificial paper systems like the FED can't even keep up with compound interest, and somehow if we switch to gold this problem will somehow not just get better, but go away?
LoveIsTruth wrote:Free Market, absent government coerced, artificially fixed exchange rates, sorts it out very well!
I beg to disagree. When US was mostly on gold, interest free standard in the 1800's it experienced unprecedented prosperity and growth.ithink wrote:History is not on your side. History is very bleak on hard metal systems.
LoveIsTruth wrote:And you are welcome to that system as long as you do not FORCE people to participate in it. It is however IMMORAL to FORCE people to be a part of that system, and to forbid them to transact in anything else they please.
Really? You are the one who said there must be one currency. Did you mean to FORCE it upon the people, or you prefer the Free Market determine what people will choose? So I will "give up your force crap" just as soon as you give it up, and NOT until then! You first, Sir.!ithink wrote:Just give up your force crap, I never said anything about force. It's disingenuous to say the least.
LoveIsTruth wrote:The major danger with that system is that it makes all too easy for a bureaucrat, unchecked by the necessity of physical delivery of gold or silver, to conjure money out of nothing and thus rob everyone via counterfeiting, because as I said before: It is INFINITELY easier to conjure 0's and 1's on a computer than to mine for actual gold. So your system is much more easily corrupted than a real gold or silver system. It's like a locked and unlocked door. You can walk through both, but one is MUCH easier than the other! 100% commodity backing of money is like that lock, that makes legalized, (or illegal) counterfeiting MUCH, MUCH harder.
That does not solve the problem of legalized or illegal counterfeiting. As history teaches, when "money" is paper or (computer 0's and 1's) the temptation is too great for both the government and the banksters, not to conjure purchasing power out of nothing. 100% commodity based currency prevents that fraud, just like a lock prevents walking through the door. You can still break through the locked door, but it is MUCH, MUCH harder than unlocked door. Commodity backing is just that LOCK, that protects the purchasing power of money. This is WHY 100% commodity based currency is the most honest and the most stable monetary system known to man (did I say that already? O, yes I did, but it bears repeating, because you don't seem to get it. )ithink wrote: Well then you'll like MPE, because the mechanism that generates the loans is not entirely in the governments hands, but it is under their jurisdiction, like your constitution does with yours, though it is not followed. There would be brokers that would issue loans (yes, private brokers, you should like that), but they would just be issuing the national currency. Overhead they charge to do this would be added to the fee, but it would have to be competitive, and the government itself would also be issuing loans to anyone who qualified. I say government, but that would be a branch of the government separated, just as you have judicial and executive separated, there would be the financial engine separated as well.
LoveIsTruth wrote:This is why in a truly Free Market, overwhelming majority of people will prefer a 100% commodity backed system, because it is THE most stable and the most honest known to man. But let the people decide. Let both exist side by side, and then come and see which will win most of the market. It's like Zune and iPod. Both have a right to exist, but one is WAY preferred over the other!
Feel free to bail, I accept your defeat.ithink wrote:Please, my time is limited. You could say it once more or 8 million times more, but you'll never get me back ... , I've been there and done that.
Cheers!
LoveIsTruth wrote:I understand. And so should you. Freedom is the only thing that is moral, and that works. Freedom,--that's all I ask for. Let people transact in what they will without government coercion. Can you understand that? Do you understand that individuals must be free? FREEDOM! Is it clicking yet?
Would that be your stubborn ego?ithink wrote:Something is clicking, but does not bode well for you.
Simple. In a gold system not all money is debt. Therefore there is no interest to be collected. As for those who would borrow gold at an interest, they better pay or go bankrupt, because they defaulted on their contract. Thus these too things: interest free gold money, and bankruptcy of those who borrow too much, protects the system, and keeps it going indefinitely.ithink wrote:I propose just one topic to be discussed, hyperbole aside, and I want your honest answers on it. The question is this: how do you think your gold system will escape the ravages of compound interest,
Gold system did NOT fail. It was outlawed, because it prevented the banksters from plundering the people so much the more.ithink wrote:that actually precipitated the failure of the gold standard less than 100 years ago, right there in your own country.
Learn your history. Hitler (as well as Lenin and Stalin) were bankrolled from the Wall street in US, with the money plundered from the middle class via legalized counterfeiting and inflation.ithink wrote:As you consider that, ... that Germany not only defeated hyperinflation, but financed a massive war machine that nearly conquered the world, and again, they did this in less than 10 years,
Hence the depression.ithink wrote: and ALL THIS WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD (ON THE GOLD STANDARD) WAS SUFFERING IN DEEP DEPRESSION.
No thanks. This thread is enough for me.ithink wrote:Actually, I suggest we start a new thread. I'll start it if you're game, ... ?
Thanks for your responses.
Good luck.