Honest Money Constitutional Amendment

[Ezra]

You keep saying the bankers of the 1930s loved gold silver. Yet the biggest bankers in the world got together in secret on sept 22 1910 to discuss the creation of the federal reserve. Which goal was to create paper money go away from gold standard so they the bankers could have more wealth then they could imagin.
The Great Depression was a direct result of there plan to move away from the gold standard.
Creature from jekyll island by Edward griffin tells all about this where he exposes the secret combinations plan that from what I can tell you love and support?

[LoveIsTruth]

"Do you understand that it is much harder to expand gold supply then the supply of computer 0's and 1's? " False.

Are you saying it is harder to conjure computer 0's and 1's out of nothing, then thousands of tons of pure gold?

If the money supply expands to match the increase of goods and services, there is no inflation.

I understand that. I told you that this system could work but depends too much on the promises of politicians and the banksters not to counterfeit extra money and to destroy money that are being repaid. I don't trust them. I'd rather they be limited by the laws of physics which they CANNOT break, than by the laws of men which they do break all the time. Can you trust them not to push "counterfeit" button when they are sitting on it? I would not.


And again, this system could work if you find honest politicians and honest bankers. I think ice cube in hell has a better chance, but fine, you and all who wish, are welcome to use such system based on trust. But you MUST NOT force anyone into it who does not want to use it. That is my point.

People must be free to transact in whatever they will unimpeded as long as they commit no aggressive violence or fraud. Justice demands that. It would be a violation of justice and of private property if you FORCED people to participate in your system against their will.

So my point is JUSTICE and Free Competition in Currencies demanded by Justice. If you agree to that, then we agree.

[LoveIsTruth]

You keep saying the bankers of the 1930s loved gold silver. Yet the biggest bankers in the world got together in secret on sept 22 1910 to discuss the creation of the federal reserve. Which goal was to create paper money go away from gold standard so they the bankers could have more wealth then they could imagin.
The Great Depression was a direct result of there plan to move away from the gold standard.
Creature from jekyll island by Edward griffin tells all about this where he exposes the secret combinations plan

Excellent point, Ezra. Exactly right! The whole world is awash in paper money not because bankers hate it, but because they love it, and because they gained control of all the governments on earth. Paper money allows them to legally counterfeit on unlimited scale. Gold and silver limits their ability to counterfeit and to conjure money out of nothing. That's why in 1933 they had gold and silver abolished by law as the medium of exchange, because they gained control over the government, and because gold and silver limits their counterfeiting.

[ithink]

You keep saying the bankers of the 1930s loved gold silver. Yet the biggest bankers in the world got together in secret on sept 22 1910 to discuss the creation of the federal reserve. Which goal was to create paper money go away from gold standard so they the bankers could have more wealth then they could imagin.
The Great Depression was a direct result of there plan to move away from the gold standard.
Creature from jekyll island by Edward griffin tells all about this where he exposes the secret combinations plan that from what I can tell you love and support?

Griffin has done a lot of good work, but would he would have had nothing if he hadn't first read Carrol Quigley.

The great depression resulted not from a departure from gold, but in fact, was exacerbated by it.

How?

Simple: it's not flexible.

Why would a flexible system have fared better?

Simple again. When the debt is increased, but the money supply isn't, we are forced to ask ourselves why, and how is that happening.

And this is the heart of what the truthlover never understands: the driving force behind all these things.

When compound interest begins to eat away at the principle that is in existence, it decreases the amount of money in circulation. But at the same time, more money is being lent (ie. the debt is growing), but the available to engage in commerce is dropping.

Eventually, the amount needed to remove from the economy to service the debt alone will exceed any amount that can be put in to counteract it.

This is purely mathematical, and can and has been proved, most recently by the economist Michael Hudson, and the mathematician, Mike Montagne.

So you should see that under a stiffer system like gold, the crash would happen much quicker since the amount that can be leveraged is much less than under a fiat system.

My whole point of this discussion with truthlover is to show him (and others) that a question looms larger than the question of whether to have a gold or fiat system, because there is something out there that will destroy them all if we are not on our toes.

I am saying, irrespective of our differences, on this we should all be united.

[ithink]

"Do you understand that it is much harder to expand gold supply then the supply of computer 0's and 1's? " False.

Are you saying it is harder to conjure computer 0's and 1's out of nothing, then thousands of tons of pure gold?

If the money supply expands to match the increase of goods and services, there is no inflation.

I understand that. I told you that this system could work but depends too much on the promises of politicians and the banksters not to counterfeit extra money and to destroy money that are being repaid. I don't trust them. I'd rather they be limited by the laws of physics which they CANNOT break, than by the laws of men which they do break all the time. Can you trust them not to push "counterfeit" button when they are sitting on it? I would not.


And again, this system could work if you find honest politicians and honest bankers. I think ice cube in hell has a better chance, but fine, you and all who wish, are welcome to use such system based on trust. But you MUST NOT force anyone into it who does not want to use it. That is my point.

People must be free to transact in whatever they will unimpeded as long as they commit no aggressive violence or fraud. Justice demands that. It would be a violation of justice and of private property if you FORCED people to participate in your system against their will.

So my point is JUSTICE and Free Competition in Currencies demanded by Justice. If you agree to that, then we agree.

Obviously you have a huge distrust of politicians and banksters. A healthy one.

And so do I.

We both want to put the system, whatever it is, outside of the control of people -- of any kind.

You want to do gold. I can see why you want to do that, and I do respect that.

What I am saying though is there is a much larger problem: that of compound interest.

Compound interest killed the gold system once before, and it would kill any fiat system too. And if not permanently hogtied and shackled, it would destroy it again.

So when we realize that politicians and bankers are willing to run the whole bloody thing off a cliff, and they must be stopped, then we are in 100% agreement.

When you say, "let's do gold", I say: watch out, there is a trap laid for you.

When I discuss a solution alternative to gold, that solution includes what is called by it's creator "Absolute Consensual Representation" because like you, I do not trust anyone. So we install a system that leverages where your Constitution started, and finishes it once and for all. Alexander Hamilton be damned, and all the rest like him afterward.

So, in a nutshell, that is to say once the financial system is corrected, it would be impossible to subvert the system again because of ACR.

We can discuss gold and ACR in a very cordial fashion from here on in if we can agree that the dragon of compound interest, hoarding all the gold and paper it can find, must FIRST be slain because if the truth be told, the defects of a gold system (or paper system) are miniscule compared to the all consuming power of compound interest.

[LoveIsTruth]

Obviously you have a huge distrust of politicians and banksters. A healthy one.
And so do I.
We both want to put the system, whatever it is, outside of the control of people -- of any kind.

Yes. We agree here.

What I am saying though is there is a much larger problem: that of compound interest.

Now we are back to the topic of justice, private property and the freedom of contract, which is a natural part of the property rights. If you are the owner of your property, you must be free to enter into ANY contract regarding it, as long as you do not commit aggressive violence or fraud. Compound interest is just such contract. You may think it is stupid. You may think it may lead to ruin of the one borrowing on such terms (and sometimes perhaps it may, but it is not your call). You may think it aesthetically abhorrent to you, but you must agree, it involves neither aggressive violence nor fraud, if entered into voluntarily and with full understanding. And since it involves neither aggressive violence nor fraud, it is JUST by definition of the word justice, and therefore has a perfect right to exist.

Compound interest killed the gold system once before,

No. Aggressive violence of the state killed gold system. It killed it in two ways. First government gave the Fed power to print paper gold, and not be held responsible for the fraud when actual gold was demanded of them. And secondly, Roosevelt, on behalf of the banksters STOLE peoples gold at a point of a gun. That killed the gold system AT THE REQUEST OF THE BANKSTERS, because gold was limiting their ability to legally counterfeit money out of thin air.

and it would kill any fiat system too.

It will kill a fiat system too, if the aggressive violence of the state makes every dollar an instrument of debt that mathematically cannot be repaid, as we have now.

And if not permanently hogtied and shackled, it would destroy it again.

Aggressive violence, especially that of the state, the single greatest perpetrator of aggressive violence on the face of the earth, must be “permanently hogtied and shackled” or it will destroy not only the monetary system, but the entire world, and all life on earth if it is not checked. Because aggressive violence is the very definition of evil.

So when we realize that politicians and bankers are willing to run the whole bloody thing off a cliff, and they must be stopped, then we are in 100% agreement.

It is the aggressive violence of the state that gave banksters and politicians the power to legalize and monopolize counterfeiting, and to attach compound interest to practically every dollar in circulation. In a free market, such ugly, fraudulent system would be rejected in favor of a more stable and more honest one, which is historically a commodity based monetary system, especially gold and silver. Whenever aggressive violence of the state is removed, commodity based monetary systems naturally reassert themselves, because they are the most honest and the most stable monetary systems known to man. This is why people FREELY choose such systems, when aggressive violence of the state is removed.

When you say, "let's do gold", I say: watch out, there is a trap laid for you.

When you say, “let’s do un-backed fiat,” I say: watch out, there is a trap laid for you. Those saintly politicians and virtuous banksters will certainly rob you via counterfeiting.
And if you FORCE such system upon individuals against their will, I say: watch out, you are committing an act of aggressive violence and therefore an act of evil and injustice.

When I discuss a solution alternative to gold, that solution includes what is called by it's creator "Absolute Consensual Representation" because like you, I do not trust anyone. So we install a system that leverages where your Constitution started, and finishes it once and for all. Alexander Hamilton be damned, and all the rest like him afterward.

Fine. As long as you do not FORCE anyone to use such system, and as long as you do not use aggressive violence to prevent competing currencies from being used.

So, in a nutshell, that is to say once the financial system is corrected, it would be impossible to subvert the system again because of ACR.

I wouldn’t say impossible. But if you trust your politicians, bankers and bureaucrats, then go ahead. But do not FORCE me, nor anyone else into it.

We can discuss gold and ACR in a very cordial fashion from here on in if we can agree that the dragon of compound interest, hoarding all the gold and paper it can find, must FIRST be slain because if the truth be told, the defects of a gold system (or paper system) are miniscule compared to the all consuming power of compound interest.

No. I do not agree. It is the aggressive violence of the state that FORCES compound interest on every dollar in circulation that is to blame. Not the compound interest itself. People must be free to contract regarding their own property in any way they please, including compound interest, as long as they do not use aggressive violence or fraud, because it is their right to contract in this way, and it is just by definition. In fact, it would be unjust to forbid it. Why? Because it is not yours, and because there is no fraud and no aggressive violence involved. Therefore it has a perfect right to exist.

[ithink]

Obviously you have a huge distrust of politicians and banksters. A healthy one.
And so do I.
We both want to put the system, whatever it is, outside of the control of people -- of any kind.

Yes. We agree here.

What I am saying though is there is a much larger problem: that of compound interest.

Now we are back to the topic of justice, private property and the freedom of contract, which is a natural part of the property rights. If you are the owner of your property, you must be free to enter into ANY contract regarding it, as long as you do not commit aggressive violence or fraud. Compound interest is just such contract. You may think it is stupid. You may think it may lead to ruin of the one borrowing on such terms (and sometimes perhaps it may, but it is not your call). You may think it aesthetically abhorrent to you, but you must agree, it involves neither aggressive violence nor fraud, if entered into voluntarily and with full understanding. And since it involves neither aggressive violence nor fraud, it is JUST by definition of the word justice, and therefore has a perfect right to exist.

Compound interest killed the gold system once before,

No. Aggressive violence of the state killed gold system. It killed it in two ways. First government gave the Fed power to print paper gold, and not be held responsible for the fraud when actual gold was demanded of them. And secondly, Roosevelt, on behalf of the banksters STOLE peoples gold at a point of a gun. That killed the gold system AT THE REQUEST OF THE BANKSTERS, because gold was limiting their ability to legally counterfeit money out of thin air.

and it would kill any fiat system too.

It will kill a fiat system too, if the aggressive violence of the state makes every dollar an instrument of debt that mathematically cannot be repaid, as we have now.

And if not permanently hogtied and shackled, it would destroy it again.

Aggressive violence, especially that of the state, the single greatest perpetrator of aggressive violence on the face of the earth, must be “permanently hogtied and shackled” or it will destroy not only the monetary system, but the entire world, and all life on earth if it is not checked. Because aggressive violence is the very definition of evil.

So when we realize that politicians and bankers are willing to run the whole bloody thing off a cliff, and they must be stopped, then we are in 100% agreement.

It is the aggressive violence of the state that gave banksters and politicians the power to legalize and monopolize counterfeiting, and to attach compound interest to practically every dollar in circulation. In a free market, such ugly, fraudulent system would be rejected in favor of a more stable and more honest one, which is historically a commodity based monetary system, especially gold and silver. Whenever aggressive violence of the state is removed, commodity based monetary systems naturally reassert themselves, because they are the most honest and the most stable monetary systems known to man. This is why people FREELY choose such systems, when aggressive violence of the state is removed.

When you say, "let's do gold", I say: watch out, there is a trap laid for you.

When you say, “let’s do un-backed fiat,” I say: watch out, there is a trap laid for you. Those saintly politicians and virtuous banksters will certainly rob you via counterfeiting.
And if you FORCE such system upon individuals against their will, I say: watch out, you are committing an act of aggressive violence and therefore an act of evil and injustice.

When I discuss a solution alternative to gold, that solution includes what is called by it's creator "Absolute Consensual Representation" because like you, I do not trust anyone. So we install a system that leverages where your Constitution started, and finishes it once and for all. Alexander Hamilton be damned, and all the rest like him afterward.

Fine. As long as you do not FORCE anyone to use such system, and as long as you do not use aggressive violence to prevent competing currencies from being used.

So, in a nutshell, that is to say once the financial system is corrected, it would be impossible to subvert the system again because of ACR.

I wouldn’t say impossible. But if you trust your politicians, bankers and bureaucrats, then go ahead. But do not FORCE me, nor anyone else into it.

We can discuss gold and ACR in a very cordial fashion from here on in if we can agree that the dragon of compound interest, hoarding all the gold and paper it can find, must FIRST be slain because if the truth be told, the defects of a gold system (or paper system) are miniscule compared to the all consuming power of compound interest.

No. I do not agree. It is the aggressive violence of the state that FORCES compound interest on every dollar in circulation that is to blame. Not the compound interest itself. People must be free to contract regarding their own property in any way they please, including compound interest, as long as they do not use aggressive violence or fraud, because it is their right to contract in this way, and it is just by definition. In fact, it would be unjust to forbid it. Why? Because it is not yours, and because there is no fraud and no aggressive violence involved. Therefore it has a perfect right to exist.

I have a hard time responding to all these square brackets. You can simply respond to what I say without referencing every little thing, I understand what you are talking about.

I'm happy to see the conversation shift a bit. You still like to talk about your violence thing, I don't mind that. You are welcome to continue promoting gold for the reasons you have cited, but do you see that there is a larger problematic fish that will eat your system for lunch, which if left unresolved, will render the type of system moot?

Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. So says Einstein, and so do I, Mike Montagne, and Michael Hudson, among many others.

Compound interest destroyed the gold system that was in place into the 1930's.

Compound interest has nearly destroyed the fiat system that is now in terminal collapse.

If compound interest isn't abolished, it will just eat us all alive all over again, and as such, is the overarching problem that must be solved BEFORE we start discussing another system.

[LoveIsTruth]

but do you see that there is a larger problematic fish that will eat your system for lunch, which if left unresolved, will render the type of system moot?
Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. So says Einstein, and so do I, Mike Montagne, and Michael Hudson, among many others.

You do not understand that the “problematic fish” you are talking about is a COMBINATION of compound interest AND aggressive violence of the state that assigns this compound interest to almost every unit of money in circulation.

Such system will unavoidably self-destruct via inflation. You are right. BUT take away the aggressive violence of the state, and you get Free Market. And Free Market will not use such system, because such system is fraud. Free Market will use interest free commodity based money like gold and silver. Once minted, those pieces of metal will be spent into economy by the miners, with value determined by weight and purity of metal. This interest free money will predominantly circulate in a Free Market. Why? Because it will be PREFERRED by the majority of the people who will buy such money with goods and services. And if someone is foolish enough to go into too much debt, and fails to honor the terms of the contract he made, he will go bankrupt and lose his shirt. But such phenomenon will be consigned to those who make promises they cannot keep, and only to them, instead of to the whole country bound by the aggressive violence of the state which assigns compound interest to almost EVERY unit of money in circulation as we have now. (Because you know that in present wicked system, practically EVERY “dollar” that comes into existence is a note of debt, with compound interest assigned to it by law payable back to the banksters who conjured it out of nothing and monopolized money production via aggressive violence of the state.) But you must understand that the culprit, the evil, the injustice here is NOT compound interest, but AGGRESSIVE VIOLENCE of the state that created the unjust monopoly and then assigned compound interest to every unit of money in circulation by the aggressive violence of an unjust law. Free Market, via Free Competition in Currencies is a negation of the forced monopoly. And once the forced monopoly is gone, such fraudulent money will be rejected by the people, who will now be free to choose interest free money instead, like pieces of gold and silver that they buy and spend with no interest attached. That, by far, what will be preferred by most people in a Free Market. It is the ABSENCE of this FREEDOM that forces ALL into the clutches of the banksters, who have an unjust MONOPOLY of money issuance granted to them by the aggressive violence of the state, which makes them free to impose any ridiculous condition they wish on the money creation, including compound interest attached to every “dollar” they create out of nothing. Free Market will choose interest free, commodity based money, because no one likes being plundered, and no one likes spending more than they have to.

Free Market, i.e. absence of aggressive violence (especially that of the state) is the only just solution to this problem, by the definition of the word justice, because Justice is defined as absence of aggressive violence.

[ithink]

but do you see that there is a larger problematic fish that will eat your system for lunch, which if left unresolved, will render the type of system moot?
Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. So says Einstein, and so do I, Mike Montagne, and Michael Hudson, among many others.

You do not understand that the “problematic fish” you are talking about is a COMBINATION of compound interest AND aggressive violence of the state that assigns this compound interest to almost every unit of money in circulation.

Such system will unavoidably self-destruct via inflation. You are right. BUT take away the aggressive violence of the state, and you get Free Market. And Free Market will not use such system, because such system is fraud. Free Market will use interest free commodity based money like gold and silver. Once minted, those pieces of metal will be spent into economy by the miners, with value determined by weight and purity of metal. This interest free money will predominantly circulate in a Free Market. Why? Because it will be PREFERRED by the majority of the people who will buy such money with goods and services. And if someone is foolish enough to go into too much debt, and fails to honor the terms of the contract he made, he will go bankrupt and lose his shirt. But such phenomenon will be consigned to those who make promises they cannot keep, and only to them, instead of to the whole country bound by the aggressive violence of the state which assigns compound interest to almost EVERY unit of money in circulation as we have now. (Because you know that in present wicked system, practically EVERY “dollar” that comes into existence is a note of debt, with compound interest assigned to it by law payable back to the banksters who conjured it out of nothing and monopolized money production via aggressive violence of the state.) But you must understand that the culprit, the evil, the injustice here is NOT compound interest, but AGGRESSIVE VIOLENCE of the state that created the unjust monopoly and then assigned compound interest to every unit of money in circulation by the aggressive violence of an unjust law. Free Market, via Free Competition in Currencies is a negation of the forced monopoly. And once the forced monopoly is gone, such fraudulent money will be rejected by the people, who will now be free to choose interest free money instead, like pieces of gold and silver that they buy and spend with no interest attached. That, by far, what will be preferred by most people in a Free Market. It is the ABSENCE of this FREEDOM that forces ALL into the clutches of the banksters, who have an unjust MONOPOLY of money issuance granted to them by the aggressive violence of the state, which makes them free to impose any ridiculous condition they wish on the money creation, including compound interest attached to every “dollar” they create out of nothing. Free Market will choose interest free, commodity based money, because no one likes being plundered, and no one likes spending more than they have to.

Free Market, i.e. absence of aggressive violence (especially that of the state) is the only just solution to this problem, by the definition of the word justice, because Justice is defined as absence of aggressive violence.

Why do you keep going back to your aggressive violence? We discussed that earlier.


Compound interest is the driving force behind it all.

You think your gold is an honest medium, but you continually refuse to talk about the fact your gold system was THE system of the bankers, and it failed.

Today, gold is as manipulated as ever. "Morgan Whistleblowers Confess Bank Manipulates Gold & Silver" http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/ ... ilver.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"German Gold Manipulation Blowback Escalates: Deutsche Bank Exits Gold Price Fixing " http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-1 ... ice-fixing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a couple tidbits.

Gold is not immune to fixing and manipulation, and just saying "free market" over and over again will not fix this. That is why I am pushing ACR (Absolute Consensual Representation), which carries treason as a penalty for it's violation. And that is all that a humane society can do.

[LoveIsTruth]

Why do you keep going back to your aggressive violence? We discussed that earlier.

Because you keep missing its key importance. If you wish to discover what is just or unjust, what is "fair" or not fair, what is proper and good and what is improper and evil, you must look at the definition of good, justice and fairness. That definition is simple: Whatever is devoid of aggressive violence is good, fair and just. That's it. This is why I am coming back to it, because you are missing this all important point. Aggressive violence is defined as violation of private property.

Compound interest is the driving force behind it all.

You are like the man who keeps saying: "People moving their hands is the driving force behind it all. If people couldn't move their hands there practically would be no murder, nor theft, no street fights. The solution is simple, let's encase everybody's hands in metal casts attached to their belts. That would solve everything."

What is wrong with this picture? Violation of private property. These are not your hands. You have ZERO just say as to how people use them, as long as they commit no aggressive violence using them. Get it?

You have ZERO moral or logical right to forbid people from contracting regarding their own property in any way they please, including compound interest. It is not yours. You have no right to dictate its use. Get it? They committed no aggressive violence, nor defrauded anyone. Therefore, you have no say in how they are using it. This is important. Do you understand now why I am talking to you about aggressive violence? If you attempted to FORCE your views about money on them you would be the perpetrator of aggressive violence, and therefore of evil by definition. Then force could justly be used against YOU to neutralize your aggression. It is not yours. Let it be. Let people transact in whatever they deem right, as long as they do not violate anyone's property. Justice demands that. You have no say in it.

You think your gold is an honest medium, but you continually refuse to talk about the fact your gold system was THE system of the bankers, and it failed.

100% gold system was the system of the people. Banksters replaced it first with a "fractional reserve" fraud, where they would create "paper gold", i.e. certificates for non-existent gold, and charge interest on this non-existent gold, and then BANNING gold outright, because it was tying their hands with regards to legalized counterfeiting and conjuring unlimited amounts of "money" out of nothing.

You have the wrong view of history. You do not understand, that since the banksters hijacked the government, THEY made sure gold and silver became ILLEGAL as the medium of exchange. They also put tax laws in place, that tax all gold transactions, thus discouraging people from using gold as the medium of exchange.

Will you deny that the banksters control practically all the governments on earth?
Will you deny that the world is awash in un-backed paper currencies?
Do you not see that that is precisely as they like it because it allows UNLIMITED counterfeiting?

So the facts disprove your erroneous theory.

Today, gold is as manipulated as ever.
Gold is not immune to fixing and manipulation,

You are right. But unbacked paper currencies are INFINITELY more susceptible to manipulation. Indeed, they were created for manipulation. It's like comparing a locked door, and an unlocked door. While both can be defeated, one is much better at protecting you then the other. Get the difference? It is INFINITELY easier to conjure a trillion "dollars" in 0's and 1's out of nothing, than to conjure this trillion in thousands of tons of 99.99% pure gold bullion. One door is locked. The other is unlocked. One requires you to trust saintly politicians and ever so virtuous banksters, the other does not.

and just saying "free market" over and over again will not fix this.

Free Market is MUCH more stringent in regulating banking, or any industry for that matter, precisely because in a Free Market there is no immunity for the banksters to commit counterfeiting fraud, and no permission for anyone to pollute his neighbor's property. As you know, government now protects banksters in their fraud, and gives permission to pollute to certain companies. This does not exist in a Free Market.

That is why I am pushing ACR (Absolute Consensual Representation), which carries treason as a penalty for it's violation. And that is all that a humane society can do.

So use it to your heart content. I never said you cannot. Just let the rest of us be, and do not FORCE us to use your system. Because if you do, you will be commuting an act of aggressive violence, evil and injustice.


In case you missed it: I have no objection to you using your ACR system. Did you get it? I am only objecting to you using the aggressive violence of the state to force the ACR upon anyone who prefers to transact in gold and silver instead. JUSTICE demands that people be free to do with their own as they please, including using gold and silver as the medium of exchange. So again, as long as you do not use aggressive violence, you have my blessing.

[ithink]

Why do you keep going back to your aggressive violence? We discussed that earlier.

Because you keep missing its key importance. If you wish to discover what is just or unjust, what is "fair" or not fair, what is proper and good and what is improper and evil, you must look at the definition of good, justice and fairness. That definition is simple: Whatever is devoid of aggressive violence is good, fair and just. That's it. This is why I am coming back to it, because you are missing this all important point. Aggressive violence is defined as violation of private property.

Compound interest is the driving force behind it all.

You are like the man who keeps saying: "People moving their hands is the driving force behind it all. If people couldn't move their hands there practically would be no murder, nor theft, no street fights. The solution is simple, let's encase everybody's hands in metal casts attached to their belts. That would solve everything."

What is wrong with this picture? Violation of private property. These are not your hands. You have ZERO just say as to how people use them, as long as they commit no aggressive violence using them. Get it?

You have ZERO moral or logical right to forbid people from contracting regarding their own property in any way they please, including compound interest. It is not yours. You have no right to dictate its use. Get it? They committed no aggressive violence, nor defrauded anyone. Therefore, you have no say in how they are using it. This is important. Do you understand now why I am talking to you about aggressive violence? If you attempted to FORCE your views about money on them you would be the perpetrator of aggressive violence, and therefore of evil by definition. Then force could justly be used against YOU to neutralize your aggression. It is not yours. Let it be. Let people transact in whatever they deem right, as long as they do not violate anyone's property. Justice demands that. You have no say in it.

You think your gold is an honest medium, but you continually refuse to talk about the fact your gold system was THE system of the bankers, and it failed.

100% gold system was the system of the people. Banksters replaced it first with a "fractional reserve" fraud, where they would create "paper gold", i.e. certificates for non-existent gold, and charge interest on this non-existent gold, and then BANNING gold outright, because it was tying their hands with regards to legalized counterfeiting and conjuring unlimited amounts of "money" out of nothing.

You have the wrong view of history. You do not understand, that since the banksters hijacked the government, THEY made sure gold and silver became ILLEGAL as the medium of exchange. They also put tax laws in place, that tax all gold transactions, thus discouraging people from using gold as the medium of exchange.

Will you deny that the banksters control practically all the governments on earth?
Will you deny that the world is awash in un-backed paper currencies?
Do you not see that that is precisely as they like it because it allows UNLIMITED counterfeiting?

So the facts disprove your erroneous theory.

Today, gold is as manipulated as ever.
Gold is not immune to fixing and manipulation,

You are right. But unbacked paper currencies are INFINITELY more susceptible to manipulation. Indeed, they were created for manipulation. It's like comparing a locked door, and an unlocked door. While both can be defeated, one is much better at protecting you then the other. Get the difference? It is INFINITELY easier to conjure a trillion "dollars" in 0's and 1's out of nothing, than to conjure this trillion in thousands of tons of 99.99% pure gold bullion. One door is locked. The other is unlocked. One requires you to trust saintly politicians and ever so virtuous banksters, the other does not.

and just saying "free market" over and over again will not fix this.

Free Market is MUCH more stringent in regulating banking, or any industry for that matter, precisely because in a Free Market there is no immunity for the banksters to commit counterfeiting fraud, and no permission for anyone to pollute his neighbor's property. As you know, government now protects banksters in their fraud, and gives permission to pollute to certain companies. This does not exist in a Free Market.

That is why I am pushing ACR (Absolute Consensual Representation), which carries treason as a penalty for it's violation. And that is all that a humane society can do.

So use it to your heart content. I never said you cannot. Just let the rest of us be, and do not FORCE us to use your system. Because if you do, you will be commuting an act of aggressive violence, evil and injustice.


In case you missed it: I have no objection to you using your ACR system. Did you get it? I am only objecting to you using the aggressive violence of the state to force the ACR upon anyone who prefers to transact in gold and silver instead. JUSTICE demands that people be free to do with their own as they please, including using gold and silver as the medium of exchange. So again, as long as you do not use aggressive violence, you have my blessing.

I'm sorry, who are you? I mean, we're back to square one.

For the sixth time, stop quoting in quotes, it makes it impossible to respond to. Just use a paragraph, I can follow that easily, and I know what you are going to say even before you open your mouth anyway.

For the eighth time: I have responded with ACR, a violation of which is treason. Actually, what the bankers and politicians are doing right now is treason, and if you were allowed to implement your gold system today but you did not dispose of the weightier matter -- compound interest -- I would charge you with treason also. Why? Because it's causational. Compound interest causes what you call "aggressive violence". Compound interest causes "unfairness", the "violation of private property", and whatever else you want to call it. You wish to fix the branches. I wish to fix the roots.

You are arguing against the wind: your own. You said I was forbidding anyone to contract, that is not true. I did however, call to your attention that any contract using compound interest -- even with your gold system, is plain old fraud.

Why is it you cannot see that the overarching problem is compound interest? For nineteenth time: compound interest will DESTROY your gold system, and faster than it would a FIAT system. DESTROY. ANNIHILATE. OBLITERATE. And how do we know this: because economists, mathematicians, and history, show us this is so.

Now on to your drivel:

1. "100% gold system was the system of the people." No, gold was the system of the money changers from day one.

2. " You do not understand, that since the banksters hijacked the government, THEY made sure gold and silver became ILLEGAL as the medium of exchange." Really? Illegal in your country only. Was never illegal in Canada, the UK, or Australia and elsewhere. So try to be a little un-American for once and see things outside of your puny borders.

3. "Will you deny that the banksters control practically all the governments on earth?" Quit making straw men up. You know full well I am opposed to the current banking system and their tentacles of control.

4. "Will you deny that the world is awash in un-backed paper currencies?" Quit making stuff up. Why don't you grab a brain. Paper currency, such as yours, is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States". It's called a "promise". Like a "covenant". What backs up your covenants? Just your lips flapping in the breeze? Better believe it, because you did it and you call that valid. How can you call that valid, but a promise man-to-man is not? How is gold any better than paper, unless two men agree, usually on paper ironically, that gold is now the medium of exchange. And speaking of this, why will you force me to use your controlled, manipulated, rigid, and inflexible gold system? Why? I don't want to, and I demand you let me contract freely with my countrymen with a pen and a paper. Quit being a tyrant and let me engage freely in commerce, and take your aggressive violence elsewhere!

5. "Do you not see that that is precisely as they like it because it allows UNLIMITED counterfeiting?" Why can you not see that a promissory obligation is not counterfeit, it is just a contract? And if it is unlimited, and it is, you just admitted that the potential for mankind to engage freely in commerce, unburdened by a sackful of yellow metal, is unlimited. Thanks for pointing out that FIAT, has no restraints: the only restraint is the capacity for mankind to produce the wealth this planet is overflowing with. Not only that, but you are like an insect on the surface of a pond, unable to get past the surface tension even if you tried. You need to think deeper than that and not just consider that FIAT is UNLIMITED, but why today, with billions in debt, why is money scarcer than ever? That truth is hidden in a paper bag, but can you think your way into it? It's because the more that is created, the more is required by the monster -- you guessed it -- COMPOUND INTEREST. So yes Virginia, it is possible to increase the debt exponentially, but actually see a contraction in the circulation. And no, I'm not going to have to say why one more time am I?

6. "Today, gold is as manipulated as ever. -- YOU ARE RIGHT". So, you want me to go with you back to a manipulated system?

7. " But unbacked paper currencies are INFINITELY more susceptible to manipulation." False. First, they are not unbacked. Second, "INFINITELY"? Sounds like hyperbole. But is it even directly proportional? Fact is: no! You bark so loud about "lemme be free to contract", then when I say "I wish to contract", you say "MANIPULATION"! I say: WHICH IS IT? Your problem is you don't understand that in a FIAT system, it is not the bank that is creating the money, it is the drawer (if you even know who that is). The fraud is the obfuscation of the bank, getting in between the two parties of the contract. Got it?

8. "Just let the rest of us be, and do not FORCE us to use your system." Wow, back a page or two I laid out an answer to this, but you have categorically ignored it. My time is precious. I have a book to finish, so if you will please.

9. "I am only objecting to you using the aggressive violence of the state to force the ACR upon anyone who prefers to transact in gold and silver instead." You are still at it. Back on July 14th, I said: "People may start up their own private systems if they wish, but they must also be legal, lawful, and fair. Whether it is flexible or not, manipulated or not, is irrelevant to the private system, but the public system cannot be. " So I freely allow you to run a gold system or not, I really don't care. But you can't stop me from running a promise based FIAT system either, unless you are a hypocrite and plan on surfeiting your "aggressive violence' on me.

[LoveIsTruth]

Compound interest causes what you call "aggressive violence". Compound interest causes "unfairness", the "violation of private property", and whatever else you want to call it. You wish to fix the branches. I wish to fix the roots.
… any contract using compound interest -- even with your gold system, is plain old fraud.

First of all, the root of the problem is aggressive violence, i.e. injustice. That is the root. If compound interest is FORCED upon everyone via aggressive violence of the state, like we have it now, then it is fraud and plunder, as you said. But if no aggressive violence is used, compound interest is just by definition of the word “justice. “

Secondly, please explain to me how “compound interest” is fraud if the two parties involved contracted voluntarily and with full knowledge?
To engage in fraud, by definition, one must conceal true facts and by this means violate someone’s property.

If full disclosure is made, and a voluntary consent obtained, compound interest, in principle, CANNOT be fraud by definition of the word “fraud.” If you disagree, please define the word “fraud.”

2. " You do not understand, that since the banksters hijacked the government, THEY made sure gold and silver became ILLEGAL as the medium of exchange." Really? Illegal in your country only. Was never illegal in Canada, the UK, or Australia and elsewhere. So try to be a little un-American for once and see things outside of your puny borders.

I already pointed out that besides forbidding it outright, like it was done in US, the governments (hijacked by the banksters), impose capital gains and sales taxes on any gold used as a medium of exchange. That’s why it is not widely used in business transactions. It’s kind of like going to a bank to exchange $5 into quarters, and then paying sales taxes on the transaction. That is how governments discourage the use of gold and silver as money. It is true in Canada, UK, or Australia. Everywhere aggressive violence of the state (hijacked by banksters) is used to tax gold transactions, thus discouraging the use of gold.

Paper currency, such as yours, is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States".

Really? What exactly does that mean? If US owes a trillion dollars to say China, can US punch 12 zeroes on a computer and say “our debt is repaid?” Yes. That is what "full faith and credit of the United States" means. It basically means NOTHING. US devalues its dollar via inflation, thus diluting its purchasing power. It pays back in dollars that buy say, half of what the dollar used to buy. So much for "full faith and credit of the United States.” Without real, commodity backing it means exactly nothing.

It's called a "promise". Like a "covenant".

A covenant to do what? To pay back the “dollars.” What exactly does the “dollar” mean? Whatever bureaucrats and banksters want it to mean. Suffice it to say that a US dollar today buys about 3 cents of what it used to buy in 1913. So when value of the dollar is arbitrary and can be changed at will at a push of a button, the “covenant” means nothing. It’s like saying “I will pay you back in quantities of gold, but I will define what ‘quantity’ means at my whim.” That’s what “faith and credit of the United States” mean. They mean nothing because unlimited amounts of “dollars” can be conjured out of nothing at a push of a button, because “dollar” is not backed by anything real.

why will you force me to use your controlled, manipulated, rigid, and inflexible gold system? Why?

You confuse me with someone else. I always said (from the top post in this thread, in fact) that people must be free to transact in whatever they please, and no one should impose a medium of exchange on anybody against their will. So you confused me with someone else. Either that, or you just can’t read.

I don't want to, and I demand you let me contract freely with my countrymen with a pen and a paper. Quit being a tyrant and let me engage freely in commerce, and take your aggressive violence elsewhere!

Aah… Are you on crack? Or you seriously cannot read?

5. "Do you not see that that is precisely as they like it because it allows UNLIMITED counterfeiting?" Why can you not see that a promissory obligation is not counterfeit, it is just a contract?

A “promissory obligation” to pay what? A dollar? What does a “dollar” mean? Under our system it means NOTHING! Or more precisely it means whatever Federal Reserve says it means. And thus it is fraud. They can, and do conjure TRILLIONS of dollars out of nothing at a push of a button. Thus it is backed by nothing and is a definition of counterfeiting and plunder. Its purchasing power is diluted at will by the banksters. If you don’t believe me I promise to pay you 50 ziglets for a gold watch, provided I get to define what “ziglet” means and can changed that definition at a whim. Do you like such a “covenant?” It means just as much as the “covenant” made by the banksters.

So I freely allow you to run a gold system or not, I really don't care. But you can't stop me from running a promise based FIAT system either

Neither do I want to “stop” you. More power to you. I already gave you my blessing in a previous post, if you missed it. That was the whole point of this thread:

• Individuals must be free to transact unmolested in any currency they choose. Justice demands it. Then Free Competition in Currencies will determine which currency will take the greater share of the Free Market, thus insuring that the most honest and the most stable monetary system will prevail, because it will be preferred (as anything else in a Free Market) by the free choice of most of the people. (Historically, it has ALWAYS been a commodity based monetary system like gold and silver, but you are free to transact in anything you please as long as you commit no aggressive violence and no fraud.)

If you agree, then we agree. You can go back to writing your book.

[ithink]

1. Compound interest is implemented passively. The consequences could be called aggressive violence, if that is what you wish. But which comes first? Of course, the interest, or at least, the compound interest is the aggressive violence. There is no actual violation of freedom until it is implemented, and your "aggressive violence" is not a noun.

2. How is compound interest fraud? If both parties are full appraised of how it really works, nobody would engage in it. You give me your truck as collateral for a loan, then after you pay it off, I keep your truck, and I also took half your car. That is is it a nutshell, who would go for that? But of course, the lack of an alternative is the problem. Call that aggressive violence if you wish, and if you do, we agree we need to be free and here's a good place to start.

3. Nobody uses metals anymore, and if they do, they are all measured against the value of the local dollar. That tells you who the top dog is.

4. Loans to China. Oh boy. And on which bank are these loans drawn?

5. Punching zeros in a computer. - sigh -. Look, once again I have to explain myself again. The debt is bigger than ever, but the circulation is shrinking. This is not inflationary, this is deflationary. You MUST distinguish between PRICE INFLATION and MONETARY INFLATION. If you do, you can discern what drives both. If you don't, you'll be confused forever. MONETARY INFLATION is a good thing, because the more people, the more money you need OR YOU WILL EXPERIENCE PRICE INFLATION OR DEFLATION. Get it? So when something as huge and monstrous as compound interest EATS more money than is being put in REGARDLESS IF THAT INPUT IS TRILLIONS, then the economy is SHRINKING, the MONEY SUPPLY IS DEFLATING while ironically the DEBT IS INFLATING exponentially!!!!! This then has the effect of INFLATING PRICES, as everyone scrambles to make more on dwindling sales. Now you see, if we were on gold and not able to punch numbers in a computer, we would have starved long ago. But since we can, we can only prolong the inevitable. And we are, but inevitable arrived in 2008, and we are picking up speed right now.

6. What is a dollar? Whatever people agree it is. What is an ounce of gold? You tell me what it's value is. What is the value of a loaf of bread? We're off the rails here.

For the umpteenth time, my whole purpose here was to share the knowledge of the dire consequences of not interdicting compound interest. If you had mentioned that in your writings, I wouldn't have bothered you but so often the gold bugs think just going gold is the answer. If you must have gold, then you can promote that but RIGHT NOW, the problem is not whether we have paper of metal: the problem is this behemoth, which must be slaughtered now, and not permitted to stand again: ever again.

If you agree on that, and it seems you do in principle, then consider mentioning it once in a while, because IMHO, everything depends on it, and I mean EVERYTHING. And if there really is "aggressive violence", then this, sir, is the primary method to the madness, for nothing happens in this world without money.

[LoveIsTruth]

1. Compound interest is implemented passively. The consequences could be called aggressive violence,

Monopoly on money creation is implemented actively via aggressive violence of the state, as well as aggressive violence of the state in the form of taxation of gold transactions. And once monopoly is granted by violence, people have no choice but borrow it at interest, because there is no other place where money can come from because of government forced monopoly. So you are wrong on this one. It’s like saying, “we cut your oxygen, but no one is forcing you to breathe.” That’s what you are saying, and it is false.

2. How is compound interest fraud? If both parties are full appraised of how it really works, nobody would engage in it.

False. Many people and institutions understand perfectly how it works, but they are forced to participate in it because of the government force monopoly. So forced monopoly makes it fraud, not interest itself. I say it again, one must be perfectly free to contract with his own as he wishes, including compound interest. Under full disclosure and voluntary participation to forbid it would be a violation of justice, because it is not yours, therefore you have no say in it.

3. Nobody uses metals anymore, and if they do, they are all measured against the value of the local dollar. That tells you who the top dog is.

No. That tells me who is holding all the guns and forcing people to be plundered by using a fraudulent currency under a threat of jail.

MONETARY INFLATION is a good thing,

Not when it is done via legalized counterfeiting.

Now you see, if we were on gold and not able to punch numbers in a computer, we would have starved long ago.

False. Here in US we were on gold for at least a century in 1800’s, and the country experienced an unprecedented increase in wealth and production. So you are wrong.

6. What is a dollar? Whatever people agree it is. What is an ounce of gold? You tell me what it's value is. What is the value of a loaf of bread? We're off the rails here.

The value of a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread. Everyone knows what it is. It is perfectly clear. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold. It is defined with absolute precision. It does not change. An ounce yesterday still ways an ounce today. It is a constant.

“Dollar” on the other hand, has no meaning in itself. Under our counterfeiting system it is meaningless. Dollar used to mean a specific weight of silver, but no longer. It means nothing these days. It is a FRAUD (Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Dollar), literally. That was the OFFICIAL name for the dollar under Federal Reserve act of 1913.

For the umpteenth time, my whole purpose here was to share the knowledge of the dire consequences of not interdicting compound interest.

It is aggressive violence of the state that attached compound interest to every dollar in circulation, therefore it is the aggressive violence of the state that must be abolished. Compound interest in itself, just as any contract, if it is NOT forced upon anyone via aggressive violence or fraud, is perfectly just.

[ithink]

1. Compound interest is implemented passively. The consequences could be called aggressive violence,

Monopoly on money creation is implemented actively via aggressive violence of the state, as well as aggressive violence of the state in the form of taxation of gold transactions. And once monopoly is granted by violence, people have no choice but borrow it at interest, because there is no other place where money can come from because of government forced monopoly. So you are wrong on this one. It’s like saying, “we cut your oxygen, but no one is forcing you to breathe.” That’s what you are saying, and it is false.

2. How is compound interest fraud? If both parties are full appraised of how it really works, nobody would engage in it.

False. Many people and institutions understand perfectly how it works, but they are forced to participate in it because of the government force monopoly. So forced monopoly makes it fraud, not interest itself. I say it again, one must be perfectly free to contract with his own as he wishes, including compound interest. Under full disclosure and voluntary participation to forbid it would be a violation of justice, because it is not yours, therefore you have no say in it.

3. Nobody uses metals anymore, and if they do, they are all measured against the value of the local dollar. That tells you who the top dog is.

No. That tells me who is holding all the guns and forcing people to be plundered by using a fraudulent currency under a threat of jail.

MONETARY INFLATION is a good thing,

Not when it is done via legalized counterfeiting.

Now you see, if we were on gold and not able to punch numbers in a computer, we would have starved long ago.

False. Here in US we were on gold for at least a century in 1800’s, and the country experienced an unprecedented increase in wealth and production. So you are wrong.

6. What is a dollar? Whatever people agree it is. What is an ounce of gold? You tell me what it's value is. What is the value of a loaf of bread? We're off the rails here.

The value of a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread. Everyone knows what it is. It is perfectly clear. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold. It is defined with absolute precision. It does not change. An ounce yesterday still ways an ounce today. It is a constant.

“Dollar” on the other hand, has no meaning in itself. Under our counterfeiting system it is meaningless. Dollar used to mean a specific weight of silver, but no longer. It means nothing these days. It is a FRAUD (Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Dollar), literally. That was the OFFICIAL name for the dollar under Federal Reserve act of 1913.

For the umpteenth time, my whole purpose here was to share the knowledge of the dire consequences of not interdicting compound interest.

It is aggressive violence of the state that attached compound interest to every dollar in circulation, therefore it is the aggressive violence of the state that must be abolished. Compound interest in itself, just as any contract, if it is NOT forced upon anyone via aggressive violence or fraud, is perfectly just.

1. Monopoly. Explain how gold would be immune to this, since the gold in the world is already controlled by a monopoly. Please include your solution to the fact that gold is as manipulate today as ever. Also debunk how I want to take this monopoly and break it by putting a piece of paper and a pen in the hand of every citizen in every country everywhere, where they can rightfully contract one with another, which contraction you seem vehemently opposed to, but then obnoxiously in favor of at the same time.

2. Fraud. The bankers at the top know it is fraud. End of story.

3. Guns. No, if you implement your "gold standard", it will immediately be valued against the dollar, and against other paper currencies.

4. Inflation. Oh boy. Suppose we just don't want to dig gold out of the ground anymore. Then 50,000 babies are born, but no more gold is available. Oh well, **** those babies eh, their loss for being born second eh?

5. Gold standard: your country has no more gold. It's gone -- all of it, to pay for the INTEREST on outstanding loans. Gotcha. This is so easy.

6. Dollar. I don't live in the US. Next question.

[LoveIsTruth]

1. Monopoly. Explain how gold would be immune to this, since the gold in the world is already controlled by a monopoly.

First of all, I am talking about a monopoly caused by aggressive violence of the state. Remove aggressive violence and such monopoly disappears.

Secondly, I never said everyone has to use gold. I said they must be free to use ANYTHING they please. If banksters stole most of the gold, use silver, etc. But if FORCED monopoly is removed, eventually people will recapture the gold as well. But the point is not gold. The point is Justice and Freedom.

Please include your solution to the fact that gold is as manipulate today as ever.

Gold is manipulated precisely because a government forced monopoly on “money” creation out of nothing exists. This is how the banksters are able to flood the market with paper “gold” thus driving its price down. When the government protected fraud is removed and the banksters are forced to honor their contracts by delivering the physical metal, then the scam ends, and with it manipulation of gold also ends.

So prohibition of aggressive violence is the solution in every case. (Because aggressive violence is the definition of evil and injustice).

Also debunk how I want to take this monopoly and break it by putting a piece of paper and a pen in the hand of every citizen in every country everywhere, where they can rightfully contract one with another, which contraction you seem vehemently opposed to, but then obnoxiously in favor of at the same time.

The problem here is your “every citizen in every country everywhere” statement. Are you going to force them to achieve your “every?” If not, than I am all for it. EVERYONE must be free to transact in ANYTHING they please as long as they commit no aggressive violence and no fraud. Justice demands this freedom.

if you implement your "gold standard", it will immediately be valued against the dollar, and against other paper currencies.

Wonderful. Then let gold compete freely against paper currencies in a Free Market, and let the most stable and most honest and the least manipulated currency win. This is how Free Market works. Justice demands this freedom. And if people notice that their paper “dollars” buy less and less, and their gold money buy more and more, there is no mystery as to what they will prefer to get paid in. But again, they must be free to choose unmolested by the aggressive violence of the state or anyone else.

Inflation. Oh boy. Suppose we just don't want to dig gold out of the ground anymore. Then 50,000 babies are born, but no more gold is available. Oh well, **** those babies eh, their loss for being born second eh?

“Suppose 2+2=5, then pigs can fly.” That is your logic. If gold becomes more and more voluble, people WILL want to dig it out of the ground (or see water, etc.). This is how free market works. I heard there is more gold in sea water than in known mines on dry land. Etc. I also heard it is possible to transmute baser metals into gold. In any case, Justice demands that people be free to do whatever they please as long as they commit no aggressive violence. That is my point. The solutions will present themselves if this foundation of justice is accepted.

Gold standard: your country has no more gold. It's gone -- all of it, to pay for the INTEREST on outstanding loans. Gotcha. This is so easy.

Already answered that at the top of this post. So you gotcha yourself.

Next question. ;)

[ithink]

I'm not in this to engender a perpetual argument. If you want to get pissy, I could do that too, but I do it so well I'd get a board warning before I even pressed the Submit button.

After we discard your hyperbole and burn the straw men you set up continually against me, not much remains. You have a superficial understanding of the world economy, and economy in general.

Frankly, you are underread.

You, like many others (to your credit), realize there is a problem but cannot see through the false paradigm of gold. You're stuck at the Edward Griffin / Ron Paul level of thinking. What you have failed to do is read the many better minds than theirs over the centuries who inspired them. Boetie, Gesell, Bastiat, Quigley, Montagne, Flürscheim, Hudson, those are a few names that have given me my ideas. Once you read them, you'd claim the same things I am claiming now.

You think a man needs to put a shovel in the ground for a yellow nugget before he can engage in commerce. I say that man just needs a pen and paper (each of them) to engage in contracts, which contracts INCLUDE a valuation of their labor in the medium of exchange of the country in which they live. Free of interest, this system would forever hog tie the bankers. I've explained this repeatedly, but you rant continually on your pet topics, of which BTW, I've never heard of before from anyone. You claim your love of gold would set us free, but that is only true for those with a shovel. Like freedom of the press, there isn't any except for those who have one.

Diggin for gold is just one occupation. Putting all that gold in one place and calling it an asset is ridiculous. The test of time has proved that a fiat system is the way to go. Look around you: unlimited prosperity already, and this even in the midst of rampant corruption. Imagine what could happen if the devastating effects of compound interest were simply to vanish? Now that is liberation!

Liberty is knowing my country in Africa, South America, or wherever, is valuable not because we have gold, but because we have pineapples, diamonds, oil, copper, or hand woven baskets. Liberty is knowing my work and my productivity will be valued for what it is, not against some artificial system based on gold. Liberty is knowing that hogging anything won't affect any other part of the economy adversely. You wouldn't know what liberty was if it came up and slapped you in the face, because it has, repeatedly, and you still can't see it.

You like gold? You do. You want others to agree with you? You sure do, but what you don't realize that what would empower your own gold system is not the gold -- it's the agreement that would make it so. And if you realize that, you'll see you are exactly where I am right now, but whether you realize that or not, or even admit it or not, won't change the fact that where I am, you will be anyway.

[Ezra]

Is it possible to have no compound interest with any object used as money? If so what's wrong with using it. If Compound interest is the problem. How do we solve the problem? Are there steps we could take towards that in our current system? If not what's the best way to crash the current system so we can set up in its place what needs to be there?

How would we protect the new system from curruption?

[Epistemology]

Imagine what could happen if the devastating effects of compound interest were simply to vanish? Now that is liberation!

is a fiat system minus compound interest sufficient or do we need fiat minus compound interest minus corruption?

What if we had fiat system + compound interest minus corruption? Or is compound interest in and of itself corruption to you? (I know there are two camps on the "evils" of compound interest)

[LoveIsTruth]

You think a man needs to put a shovel in the ground for a yellow nugget before he can engage in commerce.

Never said that. I always said he should be free to transact in ANYTHING he pleases. How is it that you always miss that? Are you dumb? Can you not read? I have repeated it about a hundred times. You must be dumb. I see no other explanation!

I say that man just needs a pen and paper (each of them) to engage in contracts, which contracts INCLUDE a valuation of their labor in the medium of exchange of the country in which they live.

I said more power to you, as long as you do not force anyone by aggressive violence to participate in that.

You claim your love of gold would set us free,

I claim abolishing all forms of aggressive violence, especially that of the state, will set us free.

but that is only true for those with a shovel.

Those with a shovel need to eat too. They need cars, shoes and computers. They will have to exchange those gold nuggets for those items. Gold is just another product in a Free Market. It is subject to the same economic laws as any other product.

The test of time has proved that a fiat system is the way to go. Look around you: unlimited prosperity already, and this even in the midst of rampant corruption. Imagine what could happen if the devastating effects of compound interest were simply to vanish? Now that is liberation!

The prosperity would have been astronomically higher if aggressive violence of the state were simply to vanish. Then there would be no compound interest attached to almost every unit of money in circulation, because it was attached via aggressive violence of the state which gave counterfeiting monopoly to the banksters. Such fraudulent, counterfeiting, compound interest based, system would have been rejected by a Free Market, were competing currencies allowed to exist unmolested by the aggressive violence of state taxation.

Aggressive violence is the only thing that is just to forbid, and nothing else.

It is unjust to forbid compound interest, if people enter it voluntarily, just as it is unjust to forbid people to use their hands because they might punch someone in the face. Compound interest if entered into voluntarily is perfectly just. In fact, it would be unjust to forbid it.

Liberty is knowing that hogging anything won't affect any other part of the economy adversely.

Free Competition in Currencies in a Free Market accomplishes just that.

what you don't realize that what would empower your own gold system is not the gold -- it's the agreement that would make it so.

The beauty of a gold system is that you do not need to trust anyone not to push counterfeiting button. Once you got the metal, you are independent of the whims of politicians and banksters. They cannot change the value of the gold you own via printing press or computer. That’s what makes 100% gold system (or 100% commodity system) so robust, stable and honest.

I will say it once again, to get it through impenetrable skull of yours:

People must be free to transact in ANY system they please as long as they commit no aggressive violence or fraud. Justice demands such freedom.

If you agree with it, THEN WE AGREE.

If you disagree, then you are a fool, but truth speaks for itself.

Cheers.

[ithink]

To go tit for tat would be a digression from where we are at. I'll overlook your "you must be dumb comments", while I'm sure right now you're scouring my comments to see where I called you something better.

But there is something I would like a reference on, something I overlooked, but it's a side show, but I'd still like to see a reference on it: "I also heard it is possible to transmute baser metals into gold." That is a dandy.

So the discussion has now morphed into a belief that a free for all in the money system is a good solution. That is one line of thinking on the railroad to the truth, but it is a few stops back from the final destination. I remember when I was there. I suppose that is condescending, but looking at your last post I'd say it isn't completely without merit.

You keep saying we can forbid "aggressive violence", but there isn't really a definition for that that you can prosecute people with. You've delineated it well enough, but it's still too vague. Can you imagine being charged with "aggressive violence", or even attempting to forbid it? You'd be the laughing stock of the nation.

If however, you forbade compound interest, and the reason you did was based on the science of mathematics, which can and constantly does show that you can't return more than was delivered, then there is a solid case for fraud, and in the case of a national currency, of colossal proportions. If such activity was permitted even on the smallest scale, the violation of the laws of mathematics would be equally egregious, but less noticeable, such as the difference between the bite of a Death Adder vs. a wasp sting.

So if you insist sir, we could permit "compound interest", but upon it's first presentation in court, it would be successfully prosecuted as the fraud that it is, and permanently banished forever. You see, if you had read what I have read, and studied what I have studied, and knew what was going on in the court systems of the State of Washington right now, and who is under current investigation there, or knew of a pending case in Europe with over 7 million Euros on the line and what the defense argument is, and why it will win like it has so many times before, you wouldn't be arguing like you are about things you have made up yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "aggressive violence" is of your own making. This is the heart of the matter that you have failed to grasp.

You're a good thinker, but you have so much zeal the cart keeps running over your horse.

As for your belief in competitive monetary systems, I would recommend Gesell, he gives a good treatment of money and systems, because it is economic theory and not capitalism (certainly not on the money system) that is the key to "social justice". Hey, those last two words almost sounds like you! You should check him out!

https://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And you should start with this chapter in particular: https://www.community-exchange.org/docs ... art3/4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"What is the hidden source from which such a scrap of paper - paper-money, the money of John Law and other paper-money swindlers, the abhorrence of orthodox economists and little minds - draws its force ?"

(Ouch)

Read it and find out.

[LoveIsTruth]

You keep saying we can forbid "aggressive violence", but there isn't really a definition for that that you can prosecute people with. You've delineated it well enough, but it's still too vague.

There is nothing vague about it. Aggressive violence is defined as violation of private property. Simple. Concise. Precise. And yes, you can charge people with it.

If however, you forbade compound interest, and the reason you did was based on the science of mathematics, which can and constantly does show that you can't return more than was delivered, then there is a solid case for fraud,

It is only fraud if compound interest is attached to almost every unit of money, and the producer of this money has a monopoly granted to him by aggressive violence of the state. That, mathematically cannot be paid back, and you are right it is fraud.

However, in a Free Market, most of the money will be commodity based interest free money, with no compound interest attached, because that would be free preference of the people between many competing currencies. In this situation, where most of the money is interest free, it is mathematically possible to borrow with compound interest AND pay it back. Therefore it is not fraud, provided that the borrower was properly informed of the conditions of his loan. To forbid such contract would be UNJUST, because it would violate the private property of both the borrower and the lender. Are they not free to contract regarding their own as they please? It is not yours. It is theirs. You have zero say in it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "aggressive violence" is of your own making.

No. Prohibition against aggressive violence is the Non-Aggression Principle, whose author is God, who said: “Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal.” Or to put it in different terms, "Thou shall not violate Private Property and self-ownership of individuals." This Non-aggression principle predates the universe and is the difference between good and evil, justice and injustice. Without understanding it you will always go wrong. It is the very heart of morality. It is also the difference between God and the devil. Therefore it is important that you should learn it. (I think ;) )

[Epistemology]

consider this:

FV = PV(1 - AV) - C
(Future Value = Present Value (1 - Aggressive Violence) - Corruption)

[ithink]

Maybe we should call a truce on the sarcasm. I'll dispense with it first.

In point form:

1. You cannot be charged with violence.
2. You cannot be charged with aggression.
2a. Mens rea.
2b. Actus reus. Both required for criminal law. But beyond that, you cannot be charged with a theory. If you think you can, sir, just try to write it up and see how it goes, because I cannot.
4. I have never heard of anyone promoting gold who also agrees compound interest must be banished. Good for you for being the first. Very cool.
5. "Thou shalt not kill". Alright, but are you a Mormon? If so, the doctrine is not that, but rather, "Thou shalt not kill anyone but the guilty who deserve to die". Look it up, but if you can't find it, I'll give you what I have.
6. Non aggression is different that "aggressive violence". If not, what of Christ and the money changers? Committing an act of aggression of that fashion in the most non aggressive place, but the meekest of all, may just constitute the one of the greatest acts of aggression anywhere, anytime.

Did you read Gesell?

[LoveIsTruth]

1. You cannot be charged with violence.
2. You cannot be charged with aggression.
2a. Mens rea.
2b. Actus reus. Both required for criminal law. But beyond that, you cannot be charged with a theory. If you think you can, sir, just try to write it up and see how it goes, because I cannot.

You can be charged with violation of Private Property. That is the definition of aggressive violence. They are one and the same.

• Aggressive violence = Violation of Private Property.

5. "Thou shalt not kill". Alright, but are you a Mormon? If so, the doctrine is not that, but rather, "Thou shalt not kill anyone but the guilty who deserve to die". Look it up, but if you can't find it, I'll give you what I have.

That is obviously implied in "Thou shalt not kill."

6. Non aggression is different that "aggressive violence". If not, what of Christ and the money changers? Committing an act of aggression of that fashion in the most non aggressive place, but the meekest of all, may just constitute the one of the greatest acts of aggression anywhere, anytime.

Aggression is defined as violation of Private Property.


The money changers were violating Jesus' private property. They were committing fraud in HIS house which he strictly forbade them. Therefore his actions we purely defensive, and thus justified. And as I told you before, defensive violence is justified violence, because it is defined as the use of equal force to offset/neutralize the aggression against one's property.

And in point of fact, God NEVER commits aggressive violence, because aggressive violence is the definition of evil and injustice. ALL of God's violence is defensive, and defensive ONLY. In fact, that is the difference between God and the devil, the devil being the father of aggressive violence.

It is key that you learn the difference, because it is the very difference between good and evil. Between Justice and injustice.

I say it again: Aggressive violence is defined simply as violation of Private Property. Therefore:

Violation of Private Property is THE definition of evil and injustice.