Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

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LoveIsTruth
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Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

  • Since the only legitimate authority that the government can have is delegated to it by the individuals governed, and no one can delegate an authority he does not have; and since no individual has moral right to force his neighbor to disclose his income, property, or sales information, furthermore, since no individual has a right to forcibly extract wealth from his neighbor,-- he cannot delegate such authority to his government.

    Therefore, all forms of public taxation of private property, including but not limited to income, property, and sales taxes, are unjust, and therefore are expressly forbidden, and are hereby and henceforth abolished.

    To preserve liberty and prosperity of the people, The only sources of revenue allowed to government are these: public property user fees, and voluntary contributions.

    Public property is defined as property to which all citizens have equal claim of ownership.

    Public property user fees must be:

    • a) agreed upon by the majority of the people,
      b) administered equally among the users, and
      c) administered without violation of property and natural, unalienable rights of any individual.



Explanation:

ALL of the society's problems are made possible or made worse by taxation.

Why? Because it is a wholesale violation of Private Property. Violation of Private Property is the definition of evil. And when you build a state on evil, you infuse evil into everything the state touches, amplifying all the evils of human condition.

What is taxation? Forceful (coercive) extraction of wealth. It is, by definition, based on aggressive violence, when one taxes the property he does not own.

Aggressive violence is the definition of evil. It is the definition of INJUSTICE. It is ALWAYS wrong. It is rooted in violation of private property.

Now, Private Property is the foundation of Liberty and Justice. Liberty and Justice DO NOT EXIST without Private Property.

What is Justice if not the right to use equal force to offset the aggression of another against your property? Thus, Justice is nothing more than Non-violation of Private Property. (Private Property here, of course, is taken in the broadest sense possible. It includes all the things you own, that you do not have to ask anyone permission to use, as long as you do not violate the property of another; and everyone must obtain your permission to use it. Defined this way, your private property includes you, your body, your mind, your ability to think, to speak, to act, to move, the fruits of your labor, etc..) Non-violation is another name for Non-Aggression (see NAP). It is the same thing.

And what is Liberty if not the right to do with your own property what you desire, as long as you do not violate the property of another?

Thus both Justice and Liberty are completely meaningless without the concept of private property. Anything that violates Private Property violates both JUSTICE and LIBERTY, and is therefore EVIL, by definition, no matter who practices it.

So public taxation of private property is EVIL because it is violation of Private Property via Aggressive violence.

It is THEFT by the strictest definition of the term. It is institutionalized INJUSTICE, institutionalized robbery, and institutionalized aggressive violence, which is institutionalized evil, by definition of the term. (EVIL is defined as aggressive violence.)

The loony idea that the rules of morality and justice do not apply to government is the core of our problems.

You can only rightfully tax the things you own (in the form of rent, user fee, or such), and nothing else. Otherwise you would be committing plunder, albeit legalized plunder, which is still IMMORAL.

The key point here is that government does NOT own you, nor your property, nor the fruits of your labor, therefore it cannot rightly tax you at all, because again, you can only rightly tax (forcefully extract wealth from) the things you own, and nothing else.

As slavery was a flaw in the original Constitution, so is taxation, which is simply a different face of slavery and plunder. It is a violation of the Law of Justice, and thus is immoral. No wonder that this cancer that was embedded in the Constitution has now developed to the point of destruction of the society itself. This gross INJUSTICE must not be permitted to continue if Liberty, and consequently the society itself, is to survive and prosper. Later in this article I will give another strict proof of immorality of taxation in terms of delegation of authority.

Some people argue that there is a "social contract" under the terms of which you are supposed to pay taxes to the public. That is false, because, by definition, for a contract to exist, there must be an individual, voluntary, and explicit consent to the terms of the contract. No such INDIVIDUAL, VOLUNTARY, and EXPLICIT consent exists for taxation.

In fact, by definition, taxation, like robbery, is INVOLUNTARY.

Some say, but you vote, therefore you consent. Not at all. Voting has nothing to do with consenting to taxation. It is not a part of voting procedure.

Some say, but you live here, therefore by mere act of being here you are consenting. Not true. I granted no such consent, neither anyone I know granted such consent. To ascribe EXPLICIT consent where none is given, and then to proceed to use aggressive violence to collect the tax is an act of usurpation, plunder and injustice, by strict definitions of those terms.

And here is a technical, logical proof that government has no moral right to tax in terms of proper authority:
Since government gets all of its legitimate authority by delegation from the governed, the government has no authority to force anyone to do anything accept what you and I have moral right to force him to do. If you, as individual, have no moral right to force your neighbor to disclose his income, you cannot delegate this authority to your government to force him for you. The same goes for disclosures of sales, or property inspections. If you have no moral right to force your neighbor to disclose his sales information, or force him to reveal his property, or forcibly extract wealth from him, neither does the government; because the only legitimate authority the government has is what you delegated to it, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have!

According to this fundamental principle of liberty (and I call it the Benson Principle, please see it here), all taxes, including income, sales, and property taxes are immoral, for they require an authority the government cannot properly have, because no one could have delegated such authority to it, because no one has such authority.

So the only legitimate avenues of revenue for the government that remain are public property user fees, and voluntary contributions.

The idea here is, if you use it, you pay for it.

How do you pay for police? First of all, private sector can do justice enforcement and arbitration between parties infinitely better than a government forced monopoly. However if the people choose a public option, they can give the police non-exclusive justice enforcement functions. However, the people have no right to commit theft to pay for it via taxation of private property, (taxation of private property of another is theft). Therefore, if people choose to have public police, it can be paid from public property user fees. But they have no moral right to give the public police justice enforcement monopoly, because no individual has a right to force such a monopoly on his neighbor, and therefore neither does the government, because no one could delegate such authority to it, because no individual has such authority.

911 calls? If you want 911 operator respond to your calls, you better pay the fee to run it, etc. However, if the people prefer a public version of it as well, since they cannot rightly tax private property (only public property), they can finance 911 operators from public road and public sewer user fees, or the like. As long as it is public property, it can be decided by popular vote provided everyone is treated equally, and property of no individual is violated in the process.

What about courts? A government court is a public property. If you use it, you pay for it. And offending party should carry most of the expense. However, public courts have no right to presume monopoly on justice enforcement or arbitration. Privately funded courts in a Free Market are capable of justice enforcement infinitely better than unjust by definition government forced monopoly.

So public option for courts may exist if people choose, but it has no right to a monopoly on justice enforcement whatsoever, because no one has a right to delegate such monopoly to the government, because no one, individually has such right, and therefore such monopoly would violate Private Property and be blatantly unjust.

What about defense? Free Market can handle defense infinitely better than government forced monopoly as well, and it is the only way to provide it justly.

In addition, you can have your volunteer citizen militias at State and local levels. If people choose, federal defense can also be paid for by the States from public property user fees and from voluntary contributions. Bottom line, if people do not choose to pay for their defense they deserve to be conquered, and as with any valuable product, Free Market will deliver defense, i.e. justice enforcement most efficiently, and above all without violating the law of Justice, i.e. the law of Private Property.

At the border, the cost of operating customs can be born by customs user fees, as long as everyone is treated equally and the rights of no one is violated, etc.


As we mentioned before, all of the society's problems are made possible, or made worse by the evil of taxation:

For example, the greatest legalized plunder of all, i.e. fiat, unbacked currency is actually made possible via taxation and could not exist without it. Let me explain: the government forced monopoly that is the indispensable essence of a fiat, unbacked currency is achieved via taxation. The government TAXES transactions in gold and silver, thus discouraging their use as money. Government demands capital gain and sales taxes on gold used as the medium of exchange in every transaction done with it. It's like going to the bank to change $5 bill into quarters and paying a sales tax on the transaction. Thus, TAXATION is used to destroy Free Competition in Currencies, which Free Competition if it were present would have ended unbacked fiat, which cannot exist without a government forced monopoly. (Government forced monopoly is the opposite of Free Competition and they cannot exist simultaneously. One must unavoidably destroy the other.) This was the proof that unbacked fiat is impossible without taxation.

The immorality of taxation can also be shown from the point of view of privacy:

Privacy = Liberty.

Government hates people's privacy because it prevents them from destroying people's liberty.

1% income tax destroys 100% of the principle of self ownership and 100% of the principle of Private Property (which is Liberty itself), because one can justly tax ONLY the things he owns. By taxing you the government asserts, albeit falsely, that it OWNS you and ALL of your property. Which is a complete perversion of the truth!

Also, 1% income tax destroys 100% of your privacy, because to calculate that 1% you have to disclose to the government the ENTIRETY of your financial life; this is a complete annihilation of privacy! A sales tax gives the government the "right" to monitor all transactions between people. Property tax gives the government the "right" to inspect your property every year. And since you as individual have no moral right to force your neighbor to disclose any such information, neither has the government, for you cannot delegate an authority you do not have!

This amendment is way better than what the Founders offered. For they allowed for import and excise taxes, which means that the government can monitor EVERYTHING you do, everything you produce, everything you sell, everything you buy, to see if a certain excise tax condition was met. Besides, if they don't like a behavior or a product or a service they can just uniformly tax it with an excise tax and thus control the people. Since no private individual under jurisdiction of this government has the moral right to do any such thing, the government has no authority to do it either, because again, no one can delegate an authority he does not have.

My amendment fixes all these problems in the original Constitution.

Above all, this amendment, brings the Constitution into greater compliance with the eternal Laws of Justice, thus promoting Liberty, and ultimately the survival of the Nation, because no people can long endure without Justice.

This brief amendment would replace the entire federal tax code, and you would have your freedom!

"Right to Rob You"
Also check out this essay:
The Correct Principles of Liberty and The Errors of the US Constitution.


=====================================
This amendment is a part of 7 amendments that were designed to bring the Constitution into harmony with the Fundamental Principles of Liberty, without which Liberty cannot exist:
  1. Justice Constitutional Amendment (JCA)
  2. The Fundamental Law Constitutional Amendment
  3. Honest Money Constitutional Amendment
  4. Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation
  5. No Forced Judicial Monopoly Constitutional Amendment (NJM)
  6. Nullification - Constitutional Amendment
  7. Constitutional Amendment: Abolishing Copyrights and Patents
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on November 24th, 2016, 11:45 am, edited 67 times in total.

andrew
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by andrew »

Dear fellow liberty-lover.
Inasmuch as your proposed system is much less oppresive than the current one and would be a desirable step toward liberty, why not take the full step and establish an altogether just system of taxation.
You are suggesting that if I consider it a violation of my rights to pay a certain tax and I exercise my liberty by not paying that tax, then I must be forcibly taken to court and there have to convince a jury of peers that I cannot afford to do it.
But what is meant by "cannot afford"? Cannot afford because I'm too poor or cannot afford because I simply don't want that certain government service.
I'm quoting you
you just pay a flat fixed $X dollar fee, to run the police, courts and defense (and nothing else), whether you are rich or poor
But what if I don't want the services of the police because I can defend myself, what if I don't want the services of the army(defense) for the same reason. And also when it comes to courts - I don't want to pay money to maintain courts operation. If I sue someone and that person is found guilty, than HE has to pay ME the damage and pay THE COURT its expenses. Why do I have to be taxed if I, for example, never user courts' services, i.e. never sued nor was sued.
All in all, your suggestions are certainly worthwhile, But let me ask you, if you and I believe that there will come a day when the people be moral enough to abandon socialism and accept your proposed ideas, why not take those ideas to the uttermost summit of liberty and have no unjust taxation at all. (As if there was any taxation that is just, unless it's voluntary:). Why not build a perfect society afresh and not have even the tiniest seeds of its future destruction embedded in its foundation?

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

andrew wrote:But what if I don't want the services of the police because I can defend myself,
The society as a whole benefits if private property is protected and fraud and force are punished. That is the role of the police. Of course the duty to defend you is first and foremost yours, but if a climate of lawlessness permeates the society in general, you will have to employ ALL of your time defending yourself, your family and your property, and so everyone else. That is not a very productive use of time. This is why people get together and hire a sheriff.
andrew wrote:what if I don't want the services of the army(defense) for the same reason.
Can you defend yourself from an invasion of military power like China?
andrew wrote:And also when it comes to courts - I don't want to pay money to maintain courts operation. If I sue someone and that person is found guilty, than HE has to pay ME the damage and pay THE COURT its expenses.
That is actually a good point; the only thing I could say, the operation of police is intrinsically connected with court system, and if you need to support the one, you should probably support the other, but perhaps to lesser extent.
andrew wrote:But what is meant by "cannot afford"? Cannot afford because I'm too poor or cannot afford because I simply don't want that certain government service.
It's both. Because of the jury clauses of the proposed amendment, for the fee to be collected, the people in general have to believe that it is not excessive (meaning it is just). If the people in general will feel that the service of law and order they receive from the government costs too much they will acquit over 10% of the population, and the politicians will be forced to lower the fee under this amendment. That's the beauty of the jury check on the government.

Very good comments. Thank you.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

andrew wrote:why not take those ideas to the uttermost summit of liberty and have no unjust taxation at all. (As if there was any taxation that is just, unless it's voluntary:). Why not build a perfect society afresh and not have even the tiniest seeds of its future destruction embedded in its foundation?
This is actually a very good point. Do you think the amendment will look better thus:
  • To prevent excessive intrusion of the government into people's privacy and subsequent destruction of liberty,-- income, property, and sales taxes are expressly forbidden.

    The only sources of revenue allowed to government are these: public property user fees, and voluntary contributions.

    If a poor person cannot afford to pay a user fee, he should convince a jury of his peers of that, and be relieved of the fee.

    The government shall not raise a user fee above the point where more than 10% of the people are acquitted of it by the jury of their peers.

Thank you for your wonderful input!
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on May 21st, 2010, 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

A 2% tax on all banking transactions made through State and Federal Banks that are owned by the government (there should be no private banks) would take care of all Constitutionally allowable programs.

All corporations MUST use the banks.

No private person can be required to do so.

Any person that does not take classes on Jury nullification should not be allowed to vote.

All men should be in the State militia or they cannot vote.

Women too.

The militia should have investigatory powers on all elected officials and law enforcement agencies.

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2BFree
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by 2BFree »

I believe you all have been duped to believe that the Federal Government needs and uses our "contributions" for items like roads, bridges, defense and such. This is not the case. The Grace commission under President Reagan found that all revenue collected from the income tax was used to pay the interest on the debt and it hasn't changed since then. The reason the Federal Government is so huge and out of control is because we the people have lost the understanding of the purpose of the Fed Gov and its limited and specific powers and responsibilities. This country did fine for over 100 years without burdening the citizens with income taxes. Thid is my suggestion to the amendment per the original intent of the taxing powers of the constitution"

The Congress shall NOT have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. All revenue for the limited and specific purposes of the government will be generated through in-direct means and will be derived from sources OUTSIDE the United States and not from the States or the people.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Wiikwajio wrote: ...(there should be no private banks) ...

All corporations MUST use the banks.

No private person can be required to do so.
I think freedom works infinitely better than government force.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

2BFree wrote:I believe you all have been duped to believe that the Federal Government needs and uses our "contributions" for items like roads, bridges, defense and such. This is not the case. The Grace commission under President Reagan found that all revenue collected from the income tax was used to pay the interest on the debt and it hasn't changed since then.
I am well aware of that. The amendment I propose would limit all levels of government: Federal, State, and local.

As for the amendment you are proposing, it is basically a negation of the 16th "amendment." Since the 16th amendment was conclusively proven to never have been properly ratified, there is no reason even to repeal it. The congress can simply declare it VOID!

Please check out: The Law That Never Was
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =1&t=11047

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ithink
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by ithink »

Why tax at all?

Currently, people borrow money, the government takes it and spends it into the economy full circle.

Theoretically, the government could create the money it spends into the economy out of thin air interest free, to buy the capital and labor to build roads, water systems, sewage systems, and so on. The only difference between this an now, ie. the only thing left out is the banskter in the middle. Think about it. Of course, the government would have to simultaneously get out of every form of the welfare business. But if all taxes were dropped, most of the welfare cases would disappear because the economy would take off like a rocket.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

ithink wrote:Why tax at all?

Currently, people borrow money, the government takes it and spends it into the economy full circle.

Theoretically, the government could create the money it spends into the economy out of thin air interest free, to buy the capital and labor to build roads, water systems, sewage systems, and so on. The only difference between this an now, ie. the only thing left out is the banskter in the middle. Think about it. Of course, the government would have to simultaneously get out of every form of the welfare business. But if all taxes were dropped, most of the welfare cases would disappear because the economy would take off like a rocket.
The problem with that system is that the government will have a counterfeiting machine, and will be able to "tax" people through inflation, the most dishonest and insidious tax of all.

Even if they are forced by law to print only the amount equal to the growth of the economy (fat chance, I wouldn't trust them on that!) it would still destroy the country. Let me explain why.

By printing exactly the amount equal to the growth of the economy, the government becomes the OWNER of the increase in the economy. ALL the increase in the economy becomes now their property! That will lead to inordinate growth of the government sector and stagnation of private sector. This will result in eventual destruction of liberty and subsequent destruction of the country itself. (Without liberty every state must unavoidably self-destruct, because it is contrary to the nature of humanity and the nature of God.)

Now, you may say, But what if the government spends this stolen wealth wisely: builds roads, sewers, infrastructure etc.?
It is the height of folly to trust in virtues of mortal politicians. It is much better to bind them down with the chains of the Constitution as Jefferson proposed (the Constitution demands that states use nothing but gold and silver as money, which destroys the government's counterfeiting machine) than to trust men to be angels! It is much better for the free market (market outside of government force) to make the decisions how to use the wealth it has earned (property rights, remember?), than to hope that politicians are holy, all-knowing and perfect. Even God gives man freedom to develop freely, then how do the presumptuous would-be-overlords have a foot to stand on in the eyes of the justice of God?

Man must be free! And all would-be-dictators will go to hell! Mark my word. It is INEVITABLE!
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on April 22nd, 2010, 5:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote: ...(there should be no private banks) ...

All corporations MUST use the banks.

No private person can be required to do so.
I think freedom works infinitely better than government force.
Are you claiming that people are forced to have corporations and that it is not a free choice?

Corporations are more dangerous than standing armies. They should be taxed HEAVILY.

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ithink
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by ithink »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
ithink wrote:Why tax at all?

Currently, people borrow money, the government takes it and spends it into the economy full circle.

Theoretically, the government could create the money it spends into the economy out of thin air interest free, to buy the capital and labor to build roads, water systems, sewage systems, and so on. The only difference between this an now, ie. the only thing left out is the banskter in the middle. Think about it. Of course, the government would have to simultaneously get out of every form of the welfare business. But if all taxes were dropped, most of the welfare cases would disappear because the economy would take off like a rocket.
The problem with that system is that the government will have a counterfeiting machine, and will be able to "tax" people through inflation, the most dishonest and insidious tax of all.

Even if they are forced by law to print only the amount equal to the growth of the economy (fat chance, I wouldn't trust them on that) it would still destroy the country. Let me explain why.

By printing exactly the amount equal to the growth of the economy, the government becomes the OWNER of increase in the economy. ALL the increase in the economy becomes now their property! That will lead to inordinate growth of the government sector and stagnation of private sector. This will result in eventual destruction of liberty and subsequent destruction of the country itself. (Without liberty every state must unavoidably self-destruct, because it is contrary to the nature of humanity and the nature of God.)

Now, you may say, But what if the government spends this stolen wealth wisely: builds roads, sewers, infrastructure etc.? It is the height of folly to trust in virtues of mortal politicians. It is much better to bind them down with the chains of the Constitution as Jefferson proposed (the Constitution demands that states use nothing but gold and silver as money) than to trust men to be angels! It is much better for the free market (market outside of government force) to make the decisions how to use the wealth it has earned (property rights, remember?), than to hope that politicians are holy, all-knowing and perfect. Even God gives man freedom to develop freely, then how do the presumptuous would-be-overlords have a foot to stand on in the eyes of the justice of God?

Man must be free! And all would-be-dictators will go to hell! Mark my word. It is INEVITABLE!
I like your last sentence, but you still do not understand. I'm busy fighting the HST up here in BC, but if you have the time for more reading, please let me know, I'd be happy to continue the conversation. You could start with In This Age of Plenty by Louis Even. I wish no offense in that comment, and I can guarantee you will enjoy the read and I will even say if you say you don't learn about 25 new things reading that book you're probably a liar. I know I learned a lot more than that.

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:Corporations are more dangerous than standing armies. They should be taxed HEAVILY.
Corporations are simply an extension of a private individual. To tax corporations is to tax the people. The one thing I would change, is that if a CEO or an officer of a corporation commit a crime or a fraud, that he should not be shielded by the corporation, but should be personally punished, instead of just his shareholders.
They are not. They are government creations. They are government created insurance policies. They create a limited liability. The government, because it created them (they are a fiction) can kill them. A group can be sued for every penny of every person involved. A Corporation cannot be sued for anything owned by the shareholders. Thee is 100% NO obligation or forced used to make individual incorporate. There are costs upon society created by incorporating.

Corporations are dangerous. We the People have the right of Self-defense. We have the right to limit ANYTHING created by the government. Corporations have no God given rights. They have privileges created by the government.

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:Corporations are more dangerous than standing armies. They should be taxed HEAVILY.
Corporations are simply an extension of a private individual. To tax corporations is to tax the people. The one thing I would change, is that if a CEO or an officer of a corporation commit a crime or a fraud, that he should not be shielded by the corporation, but should be personally punished, instead of just his shareholders.
They are not. They are government creations. They are government created insurance policies. They create a limited liability. The government, because it created them (they are a fiction) can kill them. A group can be sued for every penny of every person involved. A Corporation cannot be sued for anything owned by the shareholders. Thee is 100% NO obligation or forced used to make individual incorporate. There are costs upon society created by incorporating.

Corporations are dangerous. We the People have the right of Self-defense. We have the right to limit ANYTHING created by the government. Corporations have no God given rights. They have privileges created by the government.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Wiikwajio wrote:Corporations are more dangerous than standing armies. They should be taxed HEAVILY.
Corporations are simply an extension of a private individual. To tax corporations is to tax the people. The one thing I would change, is that if a CEO or an officer of a corporation commit a crime or a fraud, that he should not be shielded by the corporation, but should be personally punished, instead of just his shareholders.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

ithink wrote:I like your last sentence, but you still do not understand.
Can you point out an error or a flaw in my resining? I thought I was being logical.

Thanks.

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2BFree
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by 2BFree »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
2BFree wrote:I believe you all have been duped to believe that the Federal Government needs and uses our "contributions" for items like roads, bridges, defense and such. This is not the case. The Grace commission under President Reagan found that all revenue collected from the income tax was used to pay the interest on the debt and it hasn't changed since then.
I am well aware of that. The amendment I propose would limit all levels of government: Federal, State, and local.

As for the amendment you are proposing, it is basically a negation of the 16th "amendment." Since the 16th amendment was conclusively proven to never have been properly ratified, there is no reason even to repeal it. The congress can simply declare it VOID!

Please check out: The Law That Never Was
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =1&t=11047
I totally agree that the 16th amendment wasn't ratified properly and that it being applied improperly/illegally. It really doesn't matter if the 16th correction/amendment wasn't ratified correctly because the government and its agents use the 16th amendment to steal money from the American people. By reversing it and taking the main tool they use to extract by force taxes that are not owed, we could get back to a proper and constitutional application of the taxing powers of the federal government especially specifying as the second half of my proposal provides the specific and limited powers of taxation that the federal government should be allowed to have.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Wiikwajio wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:
Wiikwajio wrote:Corporations are more dangerous than standing armies. They should be taxed HEAVILY.
Corporations are simply an extension of a private individual. To tax corporations is to tax the people. The one thing I would change, is that if a CEO or an officer of a corporation commit a crime or a fraud, that he should not be shielded by the corporation, but should be personally punished, instead of just his shareholders.
They are not. They are government creations. They are government created insurance policies. They create a limited liability. The government, because it created them (they are a fiction) can kill them. A group can be sued for every penny of every person involved. A Corporation cannot be sued for anything owned by the shareholders. Thee is 100% NO obligation or forced used to make individual incorporate. There are costs upon society created by incorporating.

Corporations are dangerous. We the People have the right of Self-defense. We have the right to limit ANYTHING created by the government. Corporations have no God given rights. They have privileges created by the government.
This is what I think of corporations:

Have we not a right to enter into voluntary contracts? We do. Corporation is such a contract, under which if you want to deal with a corporation, you admit that in case of an honest business loss you can only take the assets of the corporation as a collateral, but not the personal assets of individuals who created the corporation.

Such a contract makes sense, because imagine this scenario. Corporation B contracts with corporation A to paint the fleet of corporation A's busses. Corporation A delivers the busses to corporation B. Overnight there is a fire due to some electrical glitch. All the busses belonging to corporation A burn up while on the premises of corporation B. So, corporation A is entitled to collect damages from B, but the assets of B are less than the cost of the busses. Are the owners of B to loose their houses and all they possess? No. B is a corporation, so by dealing with it A assumes that the max amount of damages, in the case of an honest business loss, shall not exceed the value of the assets of B.

Now, if that was a purposeful arson by the CEO of B, then, he should have no such protection, because it is not an honest business loss. He should loose his house, all that he has, if need be, to pay the damages to A, and to the shareholders of B, and perhaps, even go to jail for the crime he committed.

So, corporations have a right to exist, as voluntary contracts have a right to exist, but they should not shield it's owners from punishment for crime and fraud. And they should definitely not get special treatment from the government.

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

LoveIsTruth wrote: This is what I think of corporations:

Have we not a right to enter into voluntary contracts? We do. Corporation is such a contract, under which if you want to deal with a corporation, you admit that in case of an honest business loss you can only take the assets of the corporation as a collateral, but not the personal assets of individuals who created the corporation.

Such a contract makes sense, because imagine this scenario. Corporation B contracts with corporation A to paint the fleet of corporation A's busses. Corporation A delivers the busses to corporation B. Overnight there is a fire due to some electrical glitch. All the busses belonging to corporation A burn up while on the premises of corporation B. So, corporation A is entitled to collect damages from B, but the assets of B are less than the cost of the busses. Are the owners of B to loose their houses and all they possess? No. B is a corporation, so by dealing with it A assumes that the max amount of damages, in the case of an honest business loss, shall not exceed the value of the assets of B.

Now, if that was a purposeful arson by the CEO of B, then, he should have no such protection, because it is not an honest business loss. He should loose his house, all that he has, if need be, to pay the damages to A, and to the shareholders of B, and perhaps, even go to jail for the crime he committed.

So, corporations have a right to exist, as voluntary contracts have a right to exist, but they should not shield it's owners from punishment for crime and fraud. And they should definitely not get special treatment from the government.
No. you do not have the RIGHT to have a corporation. The government ( a fiction) ALLOWS you to have one under specific conditions. You have to meet those conditions. You have the right to associate without government involvement but not to incorporate and limit your liablity. You have the right to contract but you do not have the right to contract in a manner that will hurt people. You have the right to swing your fists but not the right to swing them near another person in a manner that causes them fear. You have the right to freedom of religion but not to practice doctrines that harm society.

As you point out if the people that contracted with the people that were corporation A did not have the State Created insurance policy of a Corporation then the people formerly of corporation A could take the homes of the people that would have been protected by Corporation B. That is called being responsible for your actions. That way they make sure there is no fire or they lose their homes. Corporations cause people to not love their neighbor as themselves. Insurance makes people drive less carefully as do driver's licenses. Corporations cause costs upon society. Society now has no busses. Corporation A goes bankrupt because they no longer have the buses. People that depended on the busses are not unable to get to work. The costs multiply. But the owners of Corporation B do not pay for their negligence. They make society pay for their negligence. Corporations are VERY dangerous. We have the right to establish government in a manner that will best effect our safety and happiness. We have the right to tax corporations to death since we gave them artificial life. If you own a cow you also have the right to kill and eat that cow. Corporations are nothing but cows created by the government and they can be eaten by their creator.

We the People can protect ourselves against Corporation B so that we are not harmed.

You want liberty without responsibility. That is libertarian thinking and it is anti-Christ. Liberty is not the right to do whatever you want. It is the result of correct choices.

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Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Jason »

Wiikwajio wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote: This is what I think of corporations:

Have we not a right to enter into voluntary contracts? We do. Corporation is such a contract, under which if you want to deal with a corporation, you admit that in case of an honest business loss you can only take the assets of the corporation as a collateral, but not the personal assets of individuals who created the corporation.

Such a contract makes sense, because imagine this scenario. Corporation B contracts with corporation A to paint the fleet of corporation A's busses. Corporation A delivers the busses to corporation B. Overnight there is a fire due to some electrical glitch. All the busses belonging to corporation A burn up while on the premises of corporation B. So, corporation A is entitled to collect damages from B, but the assets of B are less than the cost of the busses. Are the owners of B to loose their houses and all they possess? No. B is a corporation, so by dealing with it A assumes that the max amount of damages, in the case of an honest business loss, shall not exceed the value of the assets of B.

Now, if that was a purposeful arson by the CEO of B, then, he should have no such protection, because it is not an honest business loss. He should loose his house, all that he has, if need be, to pay the damages to A, and to the shareholders of B, and perhaps, even go to jail for the crime he committed.

So, corporations have a right to exist, as voluntary contracts have a right to exist, but they should not shield it's owners from punishment for crime and fraud. And they should definitely not get special treatment from the government.
No. you do not have the RIGHT to have a corporation. The government ( a fiction) ALLOWS you to have one under specific conditions. You have to meet those conditions. You have the right to associate without government involvement but not to incorporate and limit your liablity. You have the right to contract but you do not have the right to contract in a manner that will hurt people. You have the right to swing your fists but not the right to swing them near another person in a manner that causes them fear. You have the right to freedom of religion but not to practice doctrines that harm society.

As you point out if the people that contracted with the people that were corporation A did not have the State Created insurance policy of a Corporation then the people formerly of corporation A could take the homes of the people that would have been protected by Corporation B. That is called being responsible for your actions. That way they make sure there is no fire or they lose their homes. Corporations cause people to not love their neighbor as themselves. Insurance makes people drive less carefully as do driver's licenses. Corporations cause costs upon society. Society now has no busses. Corporation A goes bankrupt because they no longer have the buses. People that depended on the busses are not unable to get to work. The costs multiply. But the owners of Corporation B do not pay for their negligence. They make society pay for their negligence. Corporations are VERY dangerous. We have the right to establish government in a manner that will best effect our safety and happiness. We have the right to tax corporations to death since we gave them artificial life. If you own a cow you also have the right to kill and eat that cow. Corporations are nothing but cows created by the government and they can be eaten by their creator.

We the People can protect ourselves against Corporation B so that we are not harmed.

You want liberty without responsibility. That is libertarian thinking and it is anti-Christ. Liberty is not the right to do whatever you want. It is the result of correct choices.
Amen! Excellent post!

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

2BFree wrote: I totally agree that the 16th amendment wasn't ratified properly and that it being applied improperly/illegally. It really doesn't matter if the 16th correction/amendment wasn't ratified correctly because the government and its agents use the 16th amendment to steal money from the American people. By reversing it and taking the main tool they use to extract by force taxes that are not owed, we could get back to a proper and constitutional application of the taxing powers of the federal government especially specifying as the second half of my proposal provides the specific and limited powers of taxation that the federal government should be allowed to have.
The 16th Amendment gave Congress no new taxing powers according to the Supreme Court.

The moneys collected by the IRS are not stolen.They are voluntary gifts to the government.

The tax would end when people stop volunteering. (See 1775 declaration of taking up arms concerning voluntary slavery.)

People get to reap what they sowed. People sowed voluntary slavery and now they are eating the fruit of that tree.

Do not blame evil people for being evil. Blame the good people that allow it.

The Founder of this country proclaimed:
Honour, justice, and humanity, forbid us tamely to surrender that freedom which we received from our gallant ancestors, and which our innocent posterity have a right to receive from us. We cannot endure the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that wretchedness which inevitably awaits them, if we basely entail hereditary bondage upon them.
The problem is that Mormons CAN and DO endure the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that wretchedness which inevitably awaits them, BECAUSE they basely entailed AND CONTINUE to voluntarily support hereditary bondage upon them.

Hopefully God will intervene and punish this nation. Hopefully Jefferson was correct:
The God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.–Thomas Jefferson
We, as a people, are guilty and not worthy of exaltation spiritually according to Presidents Grant, McKay and Clark because we have embraced and supported the New Deal and its ilk. You cannot pick the sweet fruit of liberty from the tree of Marxism but that is what Mormons expect. They are reaping what they sowed and do not like it. I do not understand why.

Social Security Numbers are obtained voluntarily. Income taxes are voluntary. The Religious Freedom Restoration ACt and the First Amendment and the ruling in Flast by the US Supreme Court offer the paths to liberty but people would rather be voluntary slaves because then they can be Scout Masters and go Golfing and vacations and have three cars instead of doing what it takes to be free.

Do not blame the masters of voluntary slaves. Blame the voluntary slaves. The Blacks in the South could not even vote until they decided to risk their lives. But Mormons do not have the time to be free Nor do they have the courage. This is nothing that has not been said by the Prophets. Read Not Commanded in All Things by President Benson. Read what President Faust said about the Civil Religion of atheism being established. Read what apostle after apostle has said about Socialism and Communism and Free government school.

We are a condemned people. And the only way to redeem this nation is going to be through the shedding of blood according to the prophets. And it will be deep.

Why? Because Mormons embraced the New Deal VOLUNTARILY and still do.

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Wiikwajio

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Wiikwajio »

Jason wrote:
Amen! Excellent post!
Glad you liked it. I have been working on why governments MUST have the authority to stop acts that do not "harm" anyone. The Libertarians always say that laws can only punish people that hurt others. That is totally anti-Declaration of Independence and Anti-Constitution. I have despised Libertarian thinking for decades because it "felt" wrong. Then I realized what the Declaration of Independence said. We are to establish governments that will best effect our safety and happiness, not just our safety.

The Libertarians reject the "happiness" clause of the "establishment of government" clause of the Declaration of Independence. But the problem I had is that Benson and the Maxims of law tell us that we can only delegate authority we have to others. That is the key to the very foundations of the Church. Christ had to give the authority to Peter, James and John and they gave it to Joseph Smith. If not then we would be like the Baptists or the Lutherans. etc. You must have the RIGHT before you can give it to your servant. The Servant is the government. So how can we delegate the authority to stop things like public nudity. houses of prostitution, gay marriage, drug use, limitations on the lands owned by others?

It is simple. Self-defense. We have the RIGHT to defend ourselves against the acts of others that harm us. There are many forms of harm. An assault is a threat of physical violence. If a man builds and unsafe dam above my property I have the right to tear it down even if it is 100% on HIS property. If a man commits acts that would bring down the wrath of a just God then I need to stop him so I am not washed away in the flood of that wrath.

In other words, we have the right to establish a government that We the People determine as a majority, not a minority, what form of government will best effect our "happiness." Our long and short term happiness. Our ETERNAL happiness.

The minority (and that is where I find myself about 100% of the time) has a right to rebel against all forms of tyranny and must be willing to pay the costs of that rebellion including but not limited to the loss of life and/or any liberty. If the rebellion succeeds then the majority will not want to impose its will upon the minority or will become subject to the majority (especially if the minority is evil). In other words, the minority has to make it uncomfortable or unhappy in its efforts to force their happiness upon the minority. Then the minority has change the "happiness" view of the majority and the two can get along.

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Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Jason »

Wiikwajio wrote:
Jason wrote:
Amen! Excellent post!
Glad you liked it. I have been working on why governments MUST have the authority to stop acts that do not "harm" anyone. The Libertarians always say that laws can only punish people that hurt others. That is totally anti-Declaration of Independence and Anti-Constitution. I have despised Libertarian thinking for decades because it "felt" wrong. Then I realized what the Declaration of Independence said. We are to establish governments that will best effect our safety and happiness, not just our safety.

The Libertarians reject the "happiness" clause of the "establishment of government" clause of the Declaration of Independence. But the problem I had is that Benson and the Maxims of law tell us that we can only delegate authority we have to others. That is the key to the very foundations of the Church. Christ had to give the authority to Peter, James and John and they gave it to Joseph Smith. If not then we would be like the Baptists or the Lutherans. etc. You must have the RIGHT before you can give it to your servant. The Servant is the government. So how can we delegate the authority to stop things like public nudity. houses of prostitution, gay marriage, drug use, limitations on the lands owned by others?

It is simple. Self-defense. We have the RIGHT to defend ourselves against the acts of others that harm us. There are many forms of harm. An assault is a threat of physical violence. If a man builds and unsafe dam above my property I have the right to tear it down even if it is 100% on HIS property. If a man commits acts that would bring down the wrath of a just God then I need to stop him so I am not washed away in the flood of that wrath.

In other words, we have the right to establish a government that We the People determine as a majority, not a minority, what form of government will best effect our "happiness." Our long and short term happiness. Our ETERNAL happiness.

The minority (and that is where I find myself about 100% of the time) has a right to rebel against all forms of tyranny and must be willing to pay the costs of that rebellion including but not limited to the loss of life and/or any liberty. If the rebellion succeeds then the majority will not want to impose its will upon the minority or will become subject to the majority (especially if the minority is evil). In other words, the minority has to make it uncomfortable or unhappy in its efforts to force their happiness upon the minority. Then the minority has change the "happiness" view of the majority and the two can get along.
Amen again! Well said!

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LoveIsTruth
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Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Wiikwajio wrote:But the owners of Corporation B do not pay for their negligence.
That is the whole point: If you can prove criminal negligence on the part of B, then they deserve NO protection at all, and are liable for every penny.
But, Not all business losses, misfortunes, or even bankruptcy are due to negligence.
If you always risked your house when starting a business, that is not conducive to doing business, even honest business.

Corporations make perfect sense, as long as they are not allowed to shield crime, willful negligence, or fraud.

You are free not to do business with corporations, if you choose, but if you do, you assume that absent of crime, willful negligence or fraud, your collateral does not exceed the assets of the corporation you are dealing with.

Makes perfect sense to me.

(By the way have you heard of the corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints? It makes sense to me too!)

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Rose Garden
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Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by Rose Garden »

Wiikwajio wrote:
Jason wrote:
Amen! Excellent post!
Glad you liked it. I have been working on why governments MUST have the authority to stop acts that do not "harm" anyone. The Libertarians always say that laws can only punish people that hurt others. That is totally anti-Declaration of Independence and Anti-Constitution. I have despised Libertarian thinking for decades because it "felt" wrong. Then I realized what the Declaration of Independence said. We are to establish governments that will best effect our safety and happiness, not just our safety.

The Libertarians reject the "happiness" clause of the "establishment of government" clause of the Declaration of Independence. But the problem I had is that Benson and the Maxims of law tell us that we can only delegate authority we have to others. That is the key to the very foundations of the Church. Christ had to give the authority to Peter, James and John and they gave it to Joseph Smith. If not then we would be like the Baptists or the Lutherans. etc. You must have the RIGHT before you can give it to your servant. The Servant is the government. So how can we delegate the authority to stop things like public nudity. houses of prostitution, gay marriage, drug use, limitations on the lands owned by others?

It is simple. Self-defense. We have the RIGHT to defend ourselves against the acts of others that harm us. There are many forms of harm. An assault is a threat of physical violence. If a man builds and unsafe dam above my property I have the right to tear it down even if it is 100% on HIS property. If a man commits acts that would bring down the wrath of a just God then I need to stop him so I am not washed away in the flood of that wrath.

In other words, we have the right to establish a government that We the People determine as a majority, not a minority, what form of government will best effect our "happiness." Our long and short term happiness. Our ETERNAL happiness.

The minority (and that is where I find myself about 100% of the time) has a right to rebel against all forms of tyranny and must be willing to pay the costs of that rebellion including but not limited to the loss of life and/or any liberty. If the rebellion succeeds then the majority will not want to impose its will upon the minority or will become subject to the majority (especially if the minority is evil). In other words, the minority has to make it uncomfortable or unhappy in its efforts to force their happiness upon the minority. Then the minority has change the "happiness" view of the majority and the two can get along.
Thanks! I finally understand how government is justified in legislating moral activities. It's like a man not allowing drug use in his own home within his family members. He would need to prohibit one person from using them to protect the others from the negative consequences of that one.

I would note the importance of making these judgments on a local level. The federal war on drugs is tyrannical and ineffective. It has served to imprison many of our nation's people. If the federal government were staying within the restraints of the Constitution, states and cities would be free to make these laws themselves. A group of people whose majority were inclined to use drugs would suffer the consequences of their choices. Another group whose majority disallowed drug use would easily be able to regulate their use within their territory.

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