Good point and good video. I'm gonna have to share this one on facebook and no doubt tick off many people.iamse7en wrote:Unless it were a voluntary tax, like a head tax. We see eye to eye on this one. It's too bad the statist media and politicians have influenced the LDS so much that they don't understand this principle anymore. Most LDS, in my estimation, would disagree with us - and they praise the imperial warfare state. I know I used too...fegunz wrote:Regardless of what the Constitution says taxation is incompatible with "the right and control of property" (D&C 134:2) and thus is in conflict with doctrine of the Church.
I know I've posted this before, but it's perfect for this thread:
Taxation, Please Explain
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- captain of 50
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
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- captain of 50
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
Interesting. I never thought of that possibility. The only issue I really have though is the fact that those that don't pay the tax will still have the force of government imposed upon them even without there consent. Because of this many might pay it out of literally defensive necessity while thinking something along the lines of "well if I don't pay or vote then those that do pay and vote will have there will imposed upon me so I might as well pay it and vote just in case I can prevent others from imposing there will upon me." So while I see the voluntary nature of the tax that you are referring compared to all others I still am not prepared to say it's truly voluntary because of the force that will be imposed upon you if you don't pay thus compelling an individual that can pay to pay up as a defensive measure.iamse7en wrote:It is, somewhat of a contradiction. But, a head tax, capitation tax, or poll tax - is a fixed amount that a person can freely choose to pay if he wishes to vote and have a say in who will be in charge for those specific and enumerated powers delegated to the federal government. People who choose not to vote need not pay it, which was a mainstream view in the 19th century. In that sense, it is voluntary.
- Neil Rucker
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
Bottom line is the Federal Government doesnt need your money to pay its bills, nor does it even get close to collecting what it spends or I should say create. Under the fiat system we have now basically all Federal spending is new money injected into the economy. So they must force you to give back as much as possible to curb inflation. All power is concentrated in the Federal Government, Federal Reserve and the Big Banks. They all share the power to create money while we the people are obligated to work for it and pay for the right to aquire it. Federal income taxes just lower our standard of living and complicate life. The 16th amendment was designed to help destroy the 4th amendment , The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Nothing is unreasonable to the IRS. The Federal Government has the power to create interest and debt free money but choose to borrow it instead from the banksters.
A Former director of the Bank of England
A Former director of the Bank of England
Josiah Charles Stamp
“Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with a flick of the pen they will create enough money to buy it back again. However, take that power away from them and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers, and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money.”
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- captain of 100
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
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- captain of 50
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
No it does not. It says "the law" not "laws of the government" or even "laws of the land." Gods law is not the same as man's law and the two types of law are certainly not on equal footing. If there was one law that could be considered "THE law" within the context of the scriptures it would be God's law NOT mans.Rincon wrote:Article of faith #12 states we live by the laws of the government we live under.
And the handbooks are Church policies that continually change based on the preferences of the brethren. They are not doctrine.The new Handbook reads that a person refusing to pay income tax can be subject to a Church Counsel.
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
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Last edited by Rincon on April 1st, 2011, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- captain of 50
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
Perhaps yes however Church policy isn't the most reliable way to find out what the Lord's will is.Rincon wrote:True, the handbook is not doctrine, but they are going to enforce it. If you were at the meeting at which the new handbooks were distributed, you heard a lengthly presentation on how diligent the leaders were in making the handbook a matter of inspiration. A lot of prayer and fasting went into that book. Perhaps the Lord wants us to pay income tax even though it is not legal.
By the way I was at the handbook training and heard the presentation you are referring to. Yes I am aware that they put a lot of time, thought, and prayer into that manual however it's still only policy to govern the day to day affairs of the church not doctrine that we will ultimately be accountable for at the final judgment. Again many church policies are flat out preferences of the brethren and frankly have nothing to do with the will of the Lord.
Note I am not advocating open rebellion of church policy just refuting the notion that church policy = the Lords will.
The Lord has not made his will known regarding paying taxes to the general membership of the church through revelation to His prophet (the brethren themselves don't even claim the handbooks are revelation from the Lord, sure parts may be based on doctrine but it's not revelation itself). The official church policy should not automatically be assumed to be the will of the Lord to the entire membership. Until the Lord makes His will known to the general membership through revelation to His prophet the decision to pay taxes or not remains ultimately a personal choice that each member much decide for himself through study, prayer and fasting.It seems to me the significant issue is not the legality of income tax. I believe Church leaders realize the Constitution has been skewed to enable the tax. I believe the question is, should the Church take a stand against income tax at this time. We all know that would be a terrible mistake, and would cause a major setback in the progress of the Church. The position of the Church is that we obey legal authority. Right now legal authority taxes us. If the income tax is illegal, the IRS has not been told yet. Until they are told, it is necessary that we pay it.
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
Dudes, looky here!
Whiskey Rebellion, anyone? The founding fathers all taxed. Doncha think they knew their own original intent better than anyone? I mean, it was theirs, after all.
Revisionist historians try to tell it otherwise, but the truth, the bottom line, the end of the argument is EVERY FOUNDING FATHER THAT LATER BECAME PRESIDENT TAXED, TAXED, AND TAXED SOMEMORE. It legal, dudes.
Whiskey Rebellion, anyone? The founding fathers all taxed. Doncha think they knew their own original intent better than anyone? I mean, it was theirs, after all.
Revisionist historians try to tell it otherwise, but the truth, the bottom line, the end of the argument is EVERY FOUNDING FATHER THAT LATER BECAME PRESIDENT TAXED, TAXED, AND TAXED SOMEMORE. It legal, dudes.
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- captain of 50
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Re: Taxation, Please Explain
I never said it was illegal myself however any taxation at all is a violation of the principle of the "right and control of property" (D&C 134:2) and therefore should be opposed by any member of the church. The fact that all the founding fathers did it does not justify violating this principle in scripture.1984Orwellherenow wrote:Dudes, looky here!
Whiskey Rebellion, anyone? The founding fathers all taxed. Doncha think they knew their own original intent better than anyone? I mean, it was theirs, after all.
Revisionist historians try to tell it otherwise, but the truth, the bottom line, the end of the argument is EVERY FOUNDING FATHER THAT LATER BECAME PRESIDENT TAXED, TAXED, AND TAXED SOMEMORE. It legal, dudes.