We all have the right to personal revelation from God. There is a power called discernment, the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know by what that power tells me truth from error. Many people do make it up to suit their own whims, that's how Christ's gospel got perverted. Joseph Smith re-stored the true gospel of Jesus Christ to us. I know that is true.Sirocco wrote:Uh huh, but how is that a good engine to tell people on what God wants?Bee Prepared wrote: We can talk to God and get His opinion, its called prayer.
I mean a person could easily just make it up to suit their own whims.
And what if the person gets a different opinion then you got?
Is it all wrong unless it follows 1 set of opinions, and if so what's the point of praying if you should only get an answer other people have told you that they got from their prayers?
How Low Can America Go?
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2536
Re: How Low Can America Go?
- Sirocco
- Praise Me!
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Re: How Low Can America Go?
How, how can you prove that to me?Bee Prepared wrote:We all have the right to personal revelation from God. There is a power called discernment, the gift of the Holy Ghost. I know by what that power tells me truth from error. Many people do make it up to suit their own whims, that's how Christ's gospel got perverted. Joseph Smith re-stored the true gospel of Jesus Christ to us. I know that is true.Sirocco wrote:Uh huh, but how is that a good engine to tell people on what God wants?Bee Prepared wrote: We can talk to God and get His opinion, its called prayer.
I mean a person could easily just make it up to suit their own whims.
And what if the person gets a different opinion then you got?
Is it all wrong unless it follows 1 set of opinions, and if so what's the point of praying if you should only get an answer other people have told you that they got from their prayers?
I understand what you're saying but it all is baffilingly strange to my mind and way of thinking.
I don't rely on my feelings for anything, because my feelings change all the time. Truth to me is only truth if I can prove it to others (or if it can be proven to me) I don't take things like prayer into an equation when determining truth.
- Alighieri
- captain of 100
- Posts: 210
Re: How Low Can America Go?
What are some things that you know are true?Sirocco wrote:
How, how can you prove that to me?
I understand what you're saying but it all is baffilingly strange to my mind and way of thinking.
I don't rely on my feelings for anything, because my feelings change all the time. Truth to me is only truth if I can prove it to others (or if it can be proven to me) I don't take things like prayer into an equation when determining truth.
- Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?
Things I see, things one can prove without faith or prayer, gravity, evolution, the sun being what it is.Alighieri wrote:What are some things that you know are true?Sirocco wrote:
How, how can you prove that to me?
I understand what you're saying but it all is baffilingly strange to my mind and way of thinking.
I don't rely on my feelings for anything, because my feelings change all the time. Truth to me is only truth if I can prove it to others (or if it can be proven to me) I don't take things like prayer into an equation when determining truth.
Though saying for sure, one knows something 100% is also something I don't like to do.
But ultimately I see truth as being something I can prove to anyone, regardless of other beliefs.
You can't prove to me the church is true, like I can prove the moon revolves around the earth.
- rewcox
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: How Low Can America Go?
You can prove it to yourself. Alma 32, plant the seed and nourish it.Sirocco wrote:Things I see, things one can prove without faith or prayer, gravity, evolution, the sun being what it is.Alighieri wrote:What are some things that you know are true?Sirocco wrote:
How, how can you prove that to me?
I understand what you're saying but it all is baffilingly strange to my mind and way of thinking.
I don't rely on my feelings for anything, because my feelings change all the time. Truth to me is only truth if I can prove it to others (or if it can be proven to me) I don't take things like prayer into an equation when determining truth.
Though saying for sure, one knows something 100% is also something I don't like to do.
But ultimately I see truth as being something I can prove to anyone, regardless of other beliefs.
You can't prove to me the church is true, like I can prove the moon revolves around the earth.
Many of us have done that. We witness it is true.
You can also put bad fertilizer on your seed and kill it, or cause poor growth.
Christ said something similar on the parable of the sower.
What kind of ground are we?
- Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?
No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
- rewcox
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5873
Re: How Low Can America Go?
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.Sirocco wrote:No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
- Sirocco
- Praise Me!
- Posts: 3808
Re: How Low Can America Go?
That may be so but I just can't wrap my head around that.rewcox wrote:Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.Sirocco wrote:No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1035
Re: How Low Can America Go?
I am really tired of everyone complaining and bemoaning and "preparing" for the end of the world. It's such a Jonah mindset. We need to get up off our b**ts and fight for our country. Get involved in politics on a local level, be vocal with your leaders.Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.
I miss the old America.
"“We are facing all kinds of trouble in our country and in the world. And we have talked about the soldiers that have protected this nation, but I want to spend a few minutes talking to you about our responsibility now to protect this nation,” Beck said. “We are the front line. We are the last line of defense, and if we fail, liberty will be lost.”
You want to get fired up watch the video on this link-
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07 ... -stand-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 182
Re: How Low Can America Go?
I'd like to be one to "get up and fight" I used to be really a "let's get to it guy" the sad thing is I feel that my resources and time are wasted because the majority is not in favor of what most of us would be in favor to. I feel like it's fighting against a current that's stronger than you. I'm not saying to lay down and let people give you the beating of a lifetime or let them strip you of your rights, but use your resources wisely, prayerfully.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1035
Re: How Low Can America Go?
Your attitude is typical, sorry.christian.argyle wrote:I'd like to be one to "get up and fight" I used to be really a "let's get to it guy" the sad thing is I feel that my resources and time are wasted because the majority is not in favor of what most of us would be in favor to. I feel like it's fighting against a current that's stronger than you. I'm not saying to lay down and let people give you the beating of a lifetime or let them strip you of your rights, but use your resources wisely, prayerfully.
During the American Revolution, the active forces in the field against England was about 3% of the colonists of which perhaps 10% of the population actively supported them. There was possibly another 20% who agreed but did little or nothing to support it. About 30% of the population sided with the King and then 30-40% took no side and took what came. This is approximate as percentages vary from historians.
History, sadly, is made by determined minorities. So, where are you in this, who shall shape the future of our nation?
Great website about being one on the courageous -http://www.anamericanwarning.com/2014/0 ... percenter/
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2536
Re: How Low Can America Go?
I agree with you Karen. I haven't just sat on my butt and bemoaned the decline of America, I also agree there's more we need to do.karend77 wrote:I am really tired of everyone complaining and bemoaning and "preparing" for the end of the world. It's such a Jonah mindset. We need to get up off our b**ts and fight for our country. Get involved in politics on a local level, be vocal with your leaders.Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.
I miss the old America.
"“We are facing all kinds of trouble in our country and in the world. And we have talked about the soldiers that have protected this nation, but I want to spend a few minutes talking to you about our responsibility now to protect this nation,” Beck said. “We are the front line. We are the last line of defense, and if we fail, liberty will be lost.”
You want to get fired up watch the video on this link-
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07 ... -stand-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- captainfearnot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1975
Re: How Low Can America Go?
When exactly was the old America? Can you put a year on it? Or a decade? According to your chart, American culture peaked in the 1950s. Is that your view, or did you have another time in mind?Bee Prepared wrote:I miss the old America.
- Sirocco
- Praise Me!
- Posts: 3808
Re: How Low Can America Go?
Well if you were white.captainfearnot wrote:When exactly was the old America? Can you put a year on it? Or a decade? According to your chart, American culture peaked in the 1950s. Is that your view, or did you have another time in mind?Bee Prepared wrote:I miss the old America.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13158
- Location: England
Re: How Low Can America Go?
I used to think this was the answer. I don't anymore.karend77 wrote: I am really tired of everyone complaining and bemoaning and "preparing" for the end of the world. It's such a Jonah mindset. We need to get up off our b**ts and fight for our country. Get involved in politics on a local level, be vocal with your leaders.
I believe we need to entirely disengage from politics (I was pleased Romney didn't win) and plough our own furrow.
I admire the JW's for the position they take.
Positions are so polarized now that there is no prospect or appetite for reasonable compromise anymore. It's time to acknowledge that the world will go it's own way and experience the consequences, and we'll go ours.
- Betadynamique
- captain of 10
- Posts: 12
Re: How Low Can America Go?
If I explain to you, would you believe the explanation? It's okay, you don't have to, it's not a serious matter, but it's like saying you can prove the moon orbits the earth. Does it? Can you prove it, or did someone teach it to you and you believed it was so? Faith is a gift from God, if faith is something used to create God then that is idolatry, but faith is a way like an investment, it has a return value. Some put faith into church, they receive friendships and other benefits in return. If you have no faith at all, you could not function, everything would be worthless to you, meaningless, you see? So you maybe not want to put faith into religion, could be a bad investment, and for many it is because not everyone is called to it. There was a time hundreds of years ago, if you do not worship the Bishop of Rome as the official representative of God on earth, you get tortured per their beliefs in universal imperialism. Some things change, some things stay the same, no? So here we are.Sirocco wrote:That may be so but I just can't wrap my head around that.rewcox wrote:
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.
- Sirocco
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Re: How Low Can America Go?
Yes I can, more so because you can see the moon in its phases and the like, and math and all that stuff.Betadynamique wrote:If I explain to you, would you believe the explanation? It's okay, you don't have to, it's not a serious matter, but it's like saying you can prove the moon orbits the earth. Does it? Can you prove it, or did someone teach it to you and you believed it was so? Faith is a gift from God, if faith is something used to create God then that is idolatry, but faith is a way like an investment, it has a return value. Some put faith into church, they receive friendships and other benefits in return. If you have no faith at all, you could not function, everything would be worthless to you, meaningless, you see? So you maybe not want to put faith into religion, could be a bad investment, and for many it is because not everyone is called to it. There was a time hundreds of years ago, if you do not worship the Bishop of Rome as the official representative of God on earth, you get tortured per their beliefs in universal imperialism. Some things change, some things stay the same, no? So here we are.Sirocco wrote:That may be so but I just can't wrap my head around that.rewcox wrote:
Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.
It's like I can see the sun set every night, how the stars change places in the sky, how gravity works...
While yes someone told me that, I can see it for myself. There is no "belief" in the sun setting every day.
And really it depends on the explanation given and what I can do with it.
- David13
- Level 34 Illuminated
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- Location: Utah
- Deborah
- Hi, I'm new.
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Re: How Low Can America Go?
My mom lived in CA for years & was there when prop. 8 passed both times, & then it was taken to the courts. We all know where that went.David13 wrote:Bee my childhood was much the same.
And I quite agree about the tv. Nothing but garbage and pandering to the prurient interests.
I do want to say tho', that I do not think "we" have gone astray. Yes, it is an extremely high portion of the population. But remember, California, a state filled with more nuts, fruits and perverts of every type, particularly in the government is the state that passed Proposition 8 twice a few years ago.
The church is looking for land in Orange County as the church is growing fast there.
I went to the Los Angeles Temple today and it was crowded.
So there may be hope.
But it seems to be a very overwhelming battle with the evil in this country today, what with the sodomites parading in the street to 'celebrate' their perversions. The situation in the schools, all the media. I don't know when the end will come.
dc
This has happened all over the nation. The voice of the people is no longer heard. We have a government & courts who have gone rogue. The Supreme Court no longer upholds the Constitution, which they have sworn to do, but they create law. We have a president who swore to uphold the Constitution, & all he has done is use executive orders to take away our rights. I don't need to go on, but we are in very precarious circumstances.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 134
Re: How Low Can America Go?
If it ever comes at all. There are many religions and people have faith in contradictory things. The common religious principal that "faith" is an intrinsically good thing is one of the major problems I have with religion.rewcox wrote:Actually it is the point. In religion, Faith comes first. Then the knowledge.Sirocco wrote:No no no, that's not the point, I don't prove things to myself like that anyway.
A book of supposed historical records requires historical artifacts, a book of inspired stories...well then no, because that's not what it's saying.
If you expect something to be history you have to back it up as history, if it's not then I can't argue against it because then it just becomes something you believe and I don't.
I often wonder at my extreme lack of faith, at times I've wanted it but it just goes away when my moods change, and they change like the wind.
Maybe it's my cold view of the world and it's people, or the past, or just how I am distrustful of things that seem too good to be true.
I don't know.
- Sandinista
- captain of 100
- Posts: 518
- Location: Ohio
Re: How Low Can America Go?
The problem with your argument is with the idea that marriage is about attraction based on "sex", which is what the sex driven culture we live in is telling everyone. In reality marriage is not about "sex". I don't have the time or inclination to get into a huge debate about what marriage is. I'll just say that though I love to have "sex" with my wife it isn't the basis for our relationship. I was initially attracted to my wife because of her intellect, personality, and beliefs. I didn't actually meet her in person until we had spent quite some time exchanging letters, e-mails, and then moving to phone calls. I was attracted to her because of the woman that I got to know long before I ever know what she looked like (no I had not even seen a picture). That she is really "hot" (in my opinion) was just icing on the cake when I did finally meet her in person.wargames83 wrote:No. My point is that it is not right to restrict marriage for same sex attracted people to people that they are not sexually attracted to.Bee Prepared wrote:
Would you?
When you start to look at "marriage" as a covenant relationship between a son and daughter of God, with all the promise that covenant relationship implies, and not a relationship based on "sexual" attraction you start to view "marriage" in a whole different light.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 204
- Location: Western Slope
Re: How Low Can America Go?
So you're saying that we should not put any limits on marriage b/c it's wrong to require people to marry someone they are not sexually attracted to?wargames83 wrote:No. My point is that it is not right to restrict marriage for same sex attracted people to people that they are not sexually attracted to.Bee Prepared wrote:
Would you?
That puts us squarely on the slippery slope. What if two sisters are only sexually attracted to each other and not any other male or female - should they be able to marry? What if a daughter is only sexually attracted to her father? Your theory opens Pandora's box.
Same sex "marriage" is not about obtaining equal rights under the law as most supporters claim. Most states, for a number of years, have had laws in effect so that a same sex partner was legally treated the same as a spouse. For example, you could put them on your insurance, they could inherit your property, etc.
Regarding the change in society, President Benson stated, back in '89, that the world would become black or white - there would no longer be shades of gray. His words have been fulfilled.
- captainfearnot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1975
Re: How Low Can America Go?
How low can America go?
Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.
We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.
Turns out we can go pretty low.
Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.
We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.
Turns out we can go pretty low.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 190
Re: How Low Can America Go?
1. Maybe for Lesbians but guys are more naturally inclined to cheat than women. So two gay guys doubles the risk that at least one of them will cheat.wargames83 wrote:In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.
2. Does it really matter if gay people are more monogamous? Wickedness is wickedness even if the people involved are faithful in their wickedness.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 134
Re: How Low Can America Go?
Awesome post. Those who keep going on and on about how everything is getting worse definitely have a limited view of history and are looking at things only one way.captainfearnot wrote:How low can America go?
Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.
We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.
Turns out we can go pretty low.