Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

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Arimathea
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Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by Arimathea »

Sisters,

How do you feel about Denver Snuffer? I for one read all of his books and thought they were brilliant. I was very sad that he was ex-communicated for writing truth about history. However, he missed out on a chance to write history about Joseph ... that would have been an even more difficult read.

My intention in asking this question is, are sisters willing to jump ship from one patriarchal hierarchy to another; from the supposed patriarchal LDS church to the patriarchal Zion gathering of Denver? Though I thought Mr. Snuffer's books were brilliant, his lectures did not have the same feeling for me and I have had to distance myself from him. The biggest red flag for me was reading about him wresting the keys, about the cursing and blessing, about preserving the restoration and that he had been given an amazing promise from the Lord. Since we know the church is Aaronic in nature, why would anyone want to preserve the Aaronic nature of the church? Why not go forward to the Melchezidek restoration? Why stay stuck like the Israelites of Moses' time? Didn't Jesus institute "turn the other cheek" and love your enemies? Isn't the cursing what the Israelites did at the time of Moses until Jesus came and brought something much higher? Why did Joseph Smith also use cursing as evident in D&C? Why is Denver also "cursing"? Why would Denver, who makes a big deal out of the nonsense of keys keys keys, and then all of a sudden says he has "wrested the keys and now he seems to think "keys" are important? There is so much double-talk with Denver, that I don't know what to think any longer except that I think Denver is a test for us ... whether we will jump from worshipping leadership to worshipping Denver. His books were all about repenting, coming to know the Lord by receiving the Second Comforter, lecturing about not worshipping leadership. And then a following of Denverites, Snufferites began and Denver over and over warned everyone not to follow him, not to trust in the arm of flesh, and yet people continued to put him on a pedestal. Years ago I admit I told someone that if it were a choice between following the church and Denver, I chose Denver. I mean the church hadn't been speaking at all about second anointings, about second comforter, and he had the courage and the actual experience of receiving Jesus. That was amazing for me to know that I also could ... that it wasn't something just for the hierarchy. Geez, I was as adored by God as his leaders were adored. I have since had to eat my words ... for I will not follow anyone but Jesus. I believe Denver's lecture re: communities and Zion and rebaptisms are a distraction from what we all ought to be doing ... seeking the Lord. Even Denver has intimated that the only people who will be in Zion are those who have had the Second Comforter, and now he is distracting people from that very cause. Denver and Keith Henderson work closely together in working with Zion groups. What ought to be made clear is that the only one who has the keys to gather Zion is the One Mighty and Strong, the one whom Joseph identified as the Elias and Denver is not the Elias. Until the Davidic Servant arises, there will be no zion ... From Denver's own words from his own blog of July 13, 2010:

Why does the Lord refer to it as "my Zion?" Can you have Zion without the Lord's presence? Can there be Zion without the Lord dwelling among them? (Moses 7: 16-18.) Notice in Enoch's City that it was the Lord who came and dwelt there, then later the Lord is the one who names or calls the people "Zion."

When the Lord calls it "my Zion" how literal is this? How directly will the Lord be involved?

If you want to have a place there, do your connections in a church, organization, fraternity, fellowship, quorum or brotherhood matter? If not, what association alone will allow you to participate? How important is the "testimony of Jesus?"

Read again the description of the group of Saints who are included with those who will comprise Zion. As you read, keep in mind all we have discussed up to this point as you recognize familiar words used below:

"51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcame by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever." D&C 76: 51-62.)

These, then are Zion. These are those who become "one" and are called by the Lord after they are gathered in the "house of Israel" and "my Zion."

From what Denver has written you have to be a member of the Church of the Firstborn to be in Zion ... that means you have to have had the Second Comforter. It is only the Mighty and Strong one that has the keys to gather all of Israel. This is part of the Davidic Servant's calling - to prepare those people to become Zion ... Denver does not have the keys to gathering and he has previously made fun of the obsession people have with "keys" anyway. Of course if we receive the Second Comforter, then we have the pure heart and pure intent to help others receive it. Denver made it known publically that the Lord had promised him something amazing. Does anyone else see this as prideful? But then maybe, just maybe Denver is doing exactly what the Lord wants him to do ... to see if you will trade worship of leadership to worship of Denver; whether you are committed in putting your trust in God or man; whether you are going to worship the Father and the Son or something else. And if Denver is our test, then he truly has put his reputation on the line to serve God and deserves our prayers. He maybe already knows that people are blindly following him and it must make him sad that all these years of lecturing that we are to seek the Lord and Him only, and now the people Denver was hoping to help, are now committing the very act that he preached against. Where do you stand on all of this? Sisters, who are you going to follow, Jesus or the arm of flesh?

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shestalou
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by shestalou »

Arimathea wrote:Sisters,

How do you feel about Denver Snuffer? I for one read all of his books and thought they were brilliant. I was very sad that he was ex-communicated for writing truth about history. However, he missed out on a chance to write history about Joseph ... that would have been an even more difficult read.

My intention in asking this question is, are sisters willing to jump ship from one patriarchal hierarchy to another; from the supposed patriarchal LDS church to the patriarchal Zion gathering of Denver? Though I thought Mr. Snuffer's books were brilliant, his lectures did not have the same feeling for me and I have had to distance myself from him. The biggest red flag for me was reading about him wresting the keys, about the cursing and blessing, about preserving the restoration and that he had been given an amazing promise from the Lord. Since we know the church is Aaronic in nature, why would anyone want to preserve the Aaronic nature of the church? Why not go forward to the Melchezidek restoration? Why stay stuck like the Israelites of Moses' time? Didn't Jesus institute "turn the other cheek" and love your enemies? Isn't the cursing what the Israelites did at the time of Moses until Jesus came and brought something much higher? Why did Joseph Smith also use cursing as evident in D&C? Why is Denver also "cursing"? Why would Denver, who makes a big deal out of the nonsense of keys keys keys, and then all of a sudden says he has "wrested the keys and now he seems to think "keys" are important? There is so much double-talk with Denver, that I don't know what to think any longer except that I think Denver is a test for us ... whether we will jump from worshipping leadership to worshipping Denver. His books were all about repenting, coming to know the Lord by receiving the Second Comforter, lecturing about not worshipping leadership. And then a following of Denverites, Snufferites began and Denver over and over warned everyone not to follow him, not to trust in the arm of flesh, and yet people continued to put him on a pedestal. Years ago I admit I told someone that if it were a choice between following the church and Denver, I chose Denver. I mean the church hadn't been speaking at all about second anointings, about second comforter, and he had the courage and the actual experience of receiving Jesus. That was amazing for me to know that I also could ... that it wasn't something just for the hierarchy. Geez, I was as adored by God as his leaders were adored. I have since had to eat my words ... for I will not follow anyone but Jesus. I believe Denver's lecture re: communities and Zion and rebaptisms are a distraction from what we all ought to be doing ... seeking the Lord. Even Denver has intimated that the only people who will be in Zion are those who have had the Second Comforter, and now he is distracting people from that very cause. Denver and Keith Henderson work closely together in working with Zion groups. What ought to be made clear is that the only one who has the keys to gather Zion is the One Mighty and Strong, the one whom Joseph identified as the Elias and Denver is not the Elias. Until the Davidic Servant arises, there will be no zion ... From Denver's own words from his own blog of July 13, 2010:

Why does the Lord refer to it as "my Zion?" Can you have Zion without the Lord's presence? Can there be Zion without the Lord dwelling among them? (Moses 7: 16-18.) Notice in Enoch's City that it was the Lord who came and dwelt there, then later the Lord is the one who names or calls the people "Zion."

When the Lord calls it "my Zion" how literal is this? How directly will the Lord be involved?

If you want to have a place there, do your connections in a church, organization, fraternity, fellowship, quorum or brotherhood matter? If not, what association alone will allow you to participate? How important is the "testimony of Jesus?"

Read again the description of the group of Saints who are included with those who will comprise Zion. As you read, keep in mind all we have discussed up to this point as you recognize familiar words used below:

"51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcame by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever." D&C 76: 51-62.)

These, then are Zion. These are those who become "one" and are called by the Lord after they are gathered in the "house of Israel" and "my Zion."

From what Denver has written you have to be a member of the Church of the Firstborn to be in Zion ... that means you have to have had the Second Comforter. It is only the Mighty and Strong one that has the keys to gather all of Israel. This is part of the Davidic Servant's calling - to prepare those people to become Zion ... Denver does not have the keys to gathering and he has previously made fun of the obsession people have with "keys" anyway. Of course if we receive the Second Comforter, then we have the pure heart and pure intent to help others receive it. Denver made it known publically that the Lord had promised him something amazing. Does anyone else see this as prideful? But then maybe, just maybe Denver is doing exactly what the Lord wants him to do ... to see if you will trade worship of leadership to worship of Denver; whether you are committed in putting your trust in God or man; whether you are going to worship the Father and the Son or something else. And if Denver is our test, then he truly has put his reputation on the line to serve God and deserves our prayers. He maybe already knows that people are blindly following him and it must make him sad that all these years of lecturing that we are to seek the Lord and Him only, and now the people Denver was hoping to help, are now committing the very act that he preached against. Where do you stand on all of this? Sisters, who are you going to follow, Jesus or the arm of flesh?
You took the words right out of my mouth, that was excellent! :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by A Random Phrase »

Arimathea, it sounds to me like you didn't pay very close attention to what he said in his lectures. Listen to or read them again and then tell me where he says, "Follow me." Tell me where he says he has wrested keys (The Lord did, not Denver).

Personally, I think it is boring to get into a discussion about Denver just like is about Joseph. Who cares? If the words be of God, they are of God. Experiment. Study the scriptures. Cry unto the Lord. See if he will bless you. See if he will eventually manifest himself to you. You can bypass a man to get into heaven but you cannot bypass the Lord to get there.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by Col. Flagg »

Is Snuffer a good man? Yes. Should he have been ex'd? No. Did he know he'd get ex'd for writing unauthorized doctrinal books and doing what he was doing? Yes. Is he someone worthy of praise or a cult following? No. That's it.

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BroJones
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by BroJones »

A Random Phrase wrote:Arimathea,...Tell me where he says he has wrested keys (The Lord did, not Denver).
You're missing the point -- many of us do not believe the Lord wrested priesthood keys from the First Presidency and gave them to Denver in April 2014, as Denver says. It is DENVER who claims this IIRC (Mesa lecture by Denver Snuffer).

How do YOU know that the "Lord did, not Denver"? how can you say that? just because Denver says it, and you believe him?

Arimathea
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by Arimathea »

[quote="A Random Phrase"]Arimathea, it sounds to me like you didn't pay very close attention to what he said in his lectures. Listen to or read them again and then tell me where he says, "Follow me." Tell me where he says he has wrested keys (The Lord did, not Denver).

Random, You are right ... the Lord wrested the keys - and I apologize for the mistake. My main point I was making is that Denver has written many times the obsession we have with "keys" and "authority" yet now he says he has "keys" ... and I'm not sure what to make of that ... do you have any thoughts? He doesn't mention power, nor am I aware yet of anyone being rebaptized who has had the Baptism of Fire immediately upon rebaptism, nor am I aware of any miracles being wrought by Denver. Don't get me wrong ... I've always been an advocate of Denver in the past, and that he has been a messenger, I do think the Lord is using him right now for a whole different purpose than what we all think and therefore I am taking a step back and just observing all things, pondering, praying, and knowing the fruits will be made known to us. I believe Denver's mission has been a hard one ... all disciples of Jesus in the NT were abandoned and reviled against, misunderstood, persecuted, etc. It is the pattern of a disciple of Jesus. Patterns are extremely important for us and therefore I am watching the pattern unfold. Denver has been our teacher, mentor, and now I believe he is our test.

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theBruceGuy
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by theBruceGuy »

BroJones wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:Arimathea,...Tell me where he says he has wrested keys (The Lord did, not Denver).
You're missing the point -- many of us do not believe the Lord wrested priesthood keys from the First Presidency and gave them to Denver in April 2014, as Denver says. It is DENVER who claims this IIRC (Mesa lecture by Denver Snuffer).

How do YOU know that the "Lord did, not Denver"? how can you say that? just because Denver says it, and you believe him?
Bro. Jones,

I fail to see where Denver claims the keys were then given to him. My reading is that he had no part in this except as a tool in the Lord's hands.

As for knowing anything, that has to come by the Spirit, not by listening to any man. I have included a portion of the transcript along with cites to assist in seeing whether the claim that the Lord then gave Denver the keys exists.
DS-Lecture 10 wrote:At the time I was excommunicated, I was in good standing with the Lord. I had nothing
amiss in my personal life. There was no sin warranting church discipline. As a former
member of the High Council for years, every church disciplinary proceeding I attended
that resulted in excommunication, always involved serious moral transgression, betrayal
of marriage covenants, and in some cases criminal wrongdoing. In contrast, the reason
for my discipline was a book I had written about church history, in which I attempted to
align the events of the Restoration to the prophecies of the Book of Mormon and the
Doctrine and Covenants. The stake president admitted to me and my wife before the
Council began, that I was then worthy of a temple recommend.19 By any standard of
moral conduct, I was an innocent man, whose only offense was believing the scriptures
revealed our condition before God. On the evening of May 1, 2014, the Lord gave me
further light and knowledge about His work in His vineyard. The Lord is in control over
the church, men, and all things. When He undertakes to accomplish something, “there is
nothing that the Lord God shall take in His heart to do, but what He will do it.” (Abr. 3:
17.) Often the means used by the Lord to accomplish His “strange act,” and to perform
His “strange work”(D&C 101: 95), are very small indeed. "Now ye may suppose that
this is foolishness in me; but behold I say unto you, that by small and simple things are
great things brought to pass; and small means in many instances doth confound the wise.
And the Lord God doth work by means to bring about his great and eternal purposes;
and by very small means the Lord doth confound the wise and bringeth about the
salvation of many souls." (Alma 37: 6-7.)
It is almost always the case that the Lord uses simple things to confound the mighty. I can
think of nothing smaller or simpler or less important than myself. Inside the great church
to which I once belonged, I was obscure. However, I lived my religion, attended
faithfully, served to the best of my ability, upheld church leaders with my prayers, paid
tithes, fasted, observed the Word of Wisdom, and helped answer questions for those
needing assistance with troubling issues. There was no reason to regard me as a rebel
who should be singled out for discipline. Nevertheless, the Lord chose to use a faithful
and believing member to accomplish His design. Only someone who is devoted to His
will could accomplish what the Lord had in His heart. Now He has accomplished it.
The Church has Doctrine and Covenants 121, verses 36 to 40, to warn it about abusing
His authority. There is an "amen" or end to authority when control, compulsion, and
dominion are exercised in any degree of unrighteousness. Therefore, when using
authority, great care must be taken. In any case, the church was careless. Therefore,
those involved, are now left to kick against the pricks, to persecute the Saints and to fight
against God.
Section 121 is a warning to church leaders. It is addressing the powerful, not the
powerless. It is addressing those who occupy the seats of authority over others. Only
those who claim the right to control, compel, and exercise dominion, are warned against
persecuting the saints, who believe the religion and practice it as I did from the time of
my conversion. My excommunication was an abuse of authority. Therefore, as soon as
the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the stake
presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained this decision, which
was unanimous. Thereafter, I appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement
of the 12 and the 70. The appeal gave notice to them all.20 The appeal was summarily
denied.
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.21 They have not
practiced what He requires. The Lord has brought about His purposes. This has been in
His heart all along. He has chosen to use small means to accomplish it, but He always
uses the smallest of means to fulfill His purposes.
None of this was my doing. The Lord's strange act, was not, could not, be planned by me.
Was not, could not, have been controlled by me. It was not anticipated by me, or even
understood by me, until after the Lord had accomplished His will, and made it apparent
to me on the evening of May 1, 2014. He alone has done this. He is the author of all of
this.22
Just because something is true at one moment does not mean it is true at another moment. Things change,
decisions matter, what we do always matters. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the
same thing as it was when I joined in 1973. At this moment it is not even the same thing it was in 2012. It
is in the process of changing rapidly, and will be something very different again in just a few more years.
The Lord, knowing the direction the LDS Church is now headed, has acted to preserve the Restoration
itself. This change does not affect the leadership’s legal right to preside.23 They are upheld by common
consent, and therefore have the right still to control the direction of the organization. But it cannot be
fixed, either. Any new authority will have to sustain the senior leaders now in position. I belonged for
forty years to the church, and President Monson, President Packer and Elder Perry were in leadership
when I joined and they are among the senior most leaders today. Adding new authorities that were not in
the leadership when the Lord took these steps cannot remedy the Lord’s decision.24
If the church’s leaders continue to be upheld by the prayers of members, prayer has power and can give
strength. However the action taken by the Lord frees His hand to do something further now. His house is
a house of order, but since the days of Abraham God’s house has included things about which we have
very little knowledge.
Because of apostasy by the overwhelming majority of Adam’s posterity, Abraham was born into
apostasy.25 Abraham’s struggle to overcome an apostate world qualified him to be the father of the
righteous. His struggle to return and reclaim faith is the model mankind would see, with very few
exceptions, forever after. He was the prototype of “everyman” in a post-deluge world, cut off from God,
the Patriarchs and the Garden.

13 “The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law.” Id.
14 See D&C 121: 37-38.
15 See 3 Ne. 7: 2-4.
16 D&C 45: 66-68: “And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of
safety for the saints of the Most High God; and the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the
Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion. And
it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor
must needs flee unto Zion for safety.”
17 See D&C 133: 26.
18 TPJS, p. 18. To the same effect, during the Mormon Reformation Heber C. Kimball said: “We receive
the priesthood and power and authority. If we make a bad use of the priesthood, so you not see that the
day will come when God will reckon with us, and he will take it from us and give it to those who will
make better use of it? (JD 6: 125.) George A. Smith said, “God has set his hand at the present time to
establish his kingdom. But unless the Saints will so live and so exert themselves that they can preserve the
purity of the holy Priesthood among them, the work will be left to other people.” (JD 6: 161.) Even
Brigham Young commented on the possibility that only an LDS remnant would remain to carry forward
the work: “God will preserve a portion of the meek and the humble of this people to bear off the Kingdom
to the inhabitants of the earth, and will defend His Priesthood; for it is the last time, the last gathering
time; and He will not suffer the Priesthood to be again driven from the earth.” (JD 2: 184.)
19 I had a current temple recommend at the time of the disciplinary council. I was not asked to return it
before the council, nor asked to return it even after the council’s decision. It expired in March, 2014, six
months after excommunication.
20 A transcript of the Appeal Letter is attached as an Appendix to this paper.
21 Meaning the leaders who exercised control, compulsion and dominion, and not the powerless who had
no part in the affair.
22 Transcribed from Journal of Denver Snuffer, Vol. 8, entry of May 2, 2014, pp. 29-33.
23
The entire corporate church is organized as a “corporation sole.” There is one owner: the LDS Church
President. As The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints he
owns everything from the copyrights to chapels, from temples to business entities, from websites to
artwork, the entire “church” belongs to one man. Even if voted out by common consent, he, and not
church members, would own all the property. In a very real legal sense, there is only one Mormon in the
LDS organization.
24
It would require such a radical and unprecedented change from history and tradition that it will not be
possible. Every one of the leadership positions would have to be replaced at a single moment, which in
LDS practice, although actually possible for them to do, is impossible for them to even contemplate.
25 “My fathers, having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord
their God had given unto them, unto worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to
my voice; for their hearts were set to do evil…” Abr. 1: 5-6.

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BroJones
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by BroJones »

So Denver clearly states, let's get to the pith of it (in Mesa, AZ):
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.21 ... It was not anticipated by me, or even
understood by me, until after the Lord had accomplished His will, and made it apparent
to me on the evening of May 1, 2014.
So, I wish to make this a matter of prayer -- did "the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities" lose the priesthood in April 2014, so that the church is no longer "led by the priesthood" - and this because they "voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me [Denver Snuffer] out of the church"? And further that the Lord told Denver all this on "on the evening of May 1, 2014"?

If this is not the right question to ask -- I base it on Denver's own statements -- please advise of the correct wording. Thanks.

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theBruceGuy
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by theBruceGuy »

Why would you want a man to tell you how to pray, or what questions to ask, or even that you need to pray about it?

If the spirit isn't whispering to you to do or ask something, then maybe you shouldn't. If we pray with an answer in our minds, why would we expect a different answer?

What I was pointing out was I am unaware of Denver claiming he now has those keys.

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BroJones
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by BroJones »

BroJones wrote:So Denver clearly states, let's get to the pith of it (in Mesa, AZ):
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church.

At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.
...

So I took this statement by Denver Snuffer to the Lord today. I went humbly and read the statement to Him. I received an answer, a comfort -- that DENVER's statement is NOT true, and that the Lord of love and truth that I pray to has not"ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood."


Thus, I am strongly assured Denver Snuffer's claim is false, the priesthood remains with the First Presidency and the Twelve - and Snuffer's statement to the contrary will tend to lead people who believe it astray. ...

Further, there came to mind the word of the Lord in D&C 112, where he stated:
For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112
VERY clear -- "is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112"

The Lord also states that there will be a cleansing, in vs 25:
"And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord..."
Should I worry about this? the answer in verse 27:
Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord...
[/quote]

IOW, the Lord himself will take care of the cleansing, I believe.

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BMC
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by BMC »

BroJones wrote:
BroJones wrote:So Denver clearly states, let's get to the pith of it (in Mesa, AZ):
Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other
general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in
casting me out of the church.

At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.
...

So I took this statement by Denver Snuffer to the Lord today. I went humbly and read the statement to Him. I received an answer, a comfort -- that DENVER's statement is NOT true, and that the Lord of love and truth that I pray to has not"ended all claims of the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood."


Thus, I am strongly assured Denver Snuffer's claim is false, the priesthood remains with the First Presidency and the Twelve - and Snuffer's statement to the contrary will tend to lead people who believe it astray. ...

Further, there came to mind the word of the Lord in D&C 112, where he stated:
For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112
VERY clear -- "is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time... D&C 112"

The Lord also states that there will be a cleansing, in vs 25:
"And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord..."
Should I worry about this? the answer in verse 27:
Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord...
BroJones, thanks for your comments and sincerity. I wonder what other witness or witnesses have you obtained to the above where you were answered and comforted. Often times, and for myself I try not to equate the feelings of comfort as being a conformation of what I am seeking to be true or not true. I often find that the Lord sends His comfort to me first, to acknowledge my distress and to comfort me that He has heard my prayers, and then I am given the opportunity to ponder, seek etc... for the answers on my own, then after the answer is manifest and I am firm in that, then the spirit bares witness with mine whether something is true or not true with additional witnesses.

Do you think you may have equated this comfort, as an answer in and of it self or is there more that was not elaborated in what you shared and the scriptures you quoted?

Is there room in D&C 112 to extend it beyond those to whom the Lord revealed it too? Meaning, if the Lord covenants with another person, that they have eternal life because they are a bishop - should I then equate myself saved having had or will or could have a similar calling and position? I realize we are to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, but sometimes, don't we take it to far especially when it comes to promises, covenants etc... In reality just because one received a covenant and promise doesn't mean it is mine unless I likewise enter into this same covenant.

As for the cleansing Amen, I swapped the words for my own interest from "House" to "Nation" meaning the Nation of His People, Nation of Israel or House of Israel - to see how then it applies and what more can I garner from those scriptures you referenced.

Anyways, I will agree on a point you had made I do not believe that the Lord is done with the Church... nor is the Lord done with any person, group or people and that regardless of their status, whether wicked or righteous, if they can be used to bring about His purposes He will. That still does not mean that, that person or thing is not neglected and left wanting. It simply means, that He will use whom ever or whatever to bring about His work.

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uglypitbull
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by uglypitbull »

BroJones wrote: D&C 112 verse 27: Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord...
That's what my conclusion was as well..... :ymapplause:

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kathyn
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by kathyn »

I find it interesting that DS thinks we should accept his word above the First Pres'y, the Twelve and the 70s??? Not very good odds there. I think I'm going with the Brethren on this one. (Talk about an ego!!!)

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jbalm
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by jbalm »

BroJones wrote: D&C 112 verse 27: Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord...

"This place" = Kirtland, OH, b/c Joseph, Hyrum & Sidney were holding down the fort there (temporarily) while the other apostles went out and about. The apostles were told not to worry about what was going to go down in Kirtland while they were away, 'cuz the other three were going to bear that particular burden.

hyloglyph
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by hyloglyph »

jbalm wrote:
BroJones wrote: D&C 112 verse 27: Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord...

"This place" = Kirtland, OH, b/c Joseph, Hyrum & Sidney were holding down the fort there (temporarily) while the other apostles went out and about. The apostles were told not to worry about what was going to go down in Kirtland while they were away, 'cuz the other three were going to bear that particular burden.
This has been pointed out repeatedly.

Whats up BroJones?

Doesn't this make sense?

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jbalm
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by jbalm »

Sec. 112 v. 15 says Joseph will have "the keys" until Christ comes again.

Confusing.

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Joel
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by Joel »

Isn't there some guy in Alpine that thinks he is Jesus?

wrsales
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by wrsales »

kathyn wrote:I find it interesting that DS thinks we should accept his word above the First Pres'y, the Twelve and the 70s??? Not very good odds there. I think I'm going with the Brethren on this one. (Talk about an ego!!!)

I don't think DS thinks anything like that. He delivered the message he believes he was supposed to and he has moved on. He doesn't tell anyone what to think. He is content to let you figure that out. I actually see lack of an ego in that. He sacrificed his time, his money, his work, to deliver a message he believes he was supposed to and then left us to figure it out.

On the other hand, you have the brethren telling you repeatedly if you ever question what they say, or step out of line one bit, they will take your eternal salvation from you, forsake the Holy Spirit of God from ever talking to you and they will nullify your temple blessings.

Now put your lifetime of programming aside. If we presented these two case studies to a third party who knew nothing of our church, which group would they say is an egomaniac?

wrsales
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by wrsales »

sen6b wrote:The ego she is referring to is that he thinks he is somehow so significant that out of all the people who have been "falsely" or who think they have been falsely excommunicated that it was HIS excommunication that was the last straw that caused the keys to be removed from the church. As far as egos go I don't think it gets any bigger than that.
And me thinks that anyone who thinks ds being excommunicated could possibly be reason enough to do that better rethink their strategy. That alone is both funny and sad enough for me to stear clear of that cow Patti!
If he was in fact told to deliver a message from God, wouldn't it be a pretty big deal to cast out a messenger of God? I already know you are going to say that he is not a messenger from God, and that is okay, you are free to believe as you will. However, if DS's claims are true, then yes, his excommunication could very easily have been what did the church in.

Edit: 1 more point. I find it fascinating how easily and often we (as mortals) tell each other what God can and can not do. If you find yourself speaking for God without certain knowledge, you may be an egomaniac as well.

Also, I have met Denver, I know him very well. I don't think you will ever meet a more humble man. To the point where it is annoying, because he doesn't want to talk to you about himself, or anything he has done. He wants to talk about baseball.

Now lets stop hijacking this thread, and let the discussion focus on the OP

wrsales
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by wrsales »

Again, I'm glad you are able to speak for God so clearly and prescribe limits as to what he can do.

Very interesting.

wrsales
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by wrsales »

sen6b wrote:Mmm i don't think i said that did i? But Denver did.many on here are so hell bent on saying the same things about church leaders....how is it so unusual that someone might disagree and feel the opposite? Especially when there is absolutely zero reason to believe ds other than "he said so". The scriptures or (God) DID however say, that the keys will not be wrested until Jesus returns. I haven't seen Him yet have you? Or does ds know something that we don't?
You may not have said it outright but you clearly have your preconceived notions as to what God can and can not do. So when something happens that falls out side of your already established notions then you will never believe it, because you already know what God can and can not do.

Again, that speaks to somewhat of an ego if you ask me.

I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that DS does in fact know something that we don't. If he is to be believed he has met our Savior personally, I am sure he learned quite a bit.

wrsales
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by wrsales »

sen6b wrote: My notions come from the scriptures. Not some random yayhoo that wants to talk about baseball.
This is hilarious

hyloglyph
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by hyloglyph »

sen6b wrote:Is it though?
Yes

Either hilarious or sad

Mostly sad



You asked:

Why would God choose some random guy nobody knows? That is nowhere in the scriptures..



Wow

Again

Wow

There is just nothing left to say

hyloglyph
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by hyloglyph »

sen6b wrote:I think we're still on topic.
And why would God choose some random guy that:
1.hardly anybody knows or even heard of
2.hardly anybody would believe
3. that most people would never even have a chance to hear from...

To spread such a huge message? When there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any scripture, anywhere, that prophecies anything even remotely close to such a scenario. I mean it's so ridiculously obvious...i mean DUHHHH!!! :D

Again wow


No words

Lizzy60
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Re: Denver Snuffer - Patriarchy

Post by Lizzy60 »

hyloglyph wrote:
sen6b wrote:I think we're still on topic.
And why would God choose some random guy that:
1.hardly anybody knows or even heard of
2.hardly anybody would believe
3. that most people would never even have a chance to hear from...

To spread such a huge message? When there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any scripture, anywhere, that prophecies anything even remotely close to such a scenario. I mean it's so ridiculously obvious...i mean DUHHHH!!! :D

Again wow


No words
Amen! Sen6b is not reading the same scriptures I'm reading. I'm not surprised. Other things she has stated also boggle my mind. Definitely a product of The Correlated Gospel.

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