Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

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freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

Fiannan wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Fiannan wrote:You do know there is a scripture that says a sign of the last days would be that people would be denied marriage
What scripture?
1st timothy 4:3
D&C 49:15
15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

So you may have a valid point, fiannan. I just don't think it will be a widespread problem. After all, against commandments of God, gay marriage is no longer denied or forbidden. To say gay marriage supersedes traditional marriage of one man and one woman is yet to be seen. I hope not!

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

Sarah wrote:I just see giving legal status to every kind of combination as something God would not want available to a wicked people.
God will sweep the wicked off the earth some day. This is our solace for today.

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Sarah
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Sarah »

Melissa wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Stahura wrote::-? :-? :-? :-? Yeah, sure, God commanded some men to take certain wives. Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Did Brigham Young do this? Was he told specifically which wives to take? Nope, his attitude about the whole process was pretty relaxed. He just took whoever he wanted.
Seems odd that David and Solomon only sinned in taking wives that God DIDN"T give to them, but Brigham is just fine taking wives without them being Given to him, using his priesthood as justification.

Clearly polygamy has existed and by God's command, but the version practiced by Brigham Young does not align with the way Abraham/David/Solomon/Jacob practiced it(in that they did not sin, only by taking women that God did not specifically give to them). I believe that members were met with judgement because of this.
What are your sources proving that Brigham only took who he wanted. What are the facts?
There is a quote of Brigham saying that he wouldn't refuse any reasonable offer.
The offers are from women who want to be sealed for eternity to a worthy husband so they will have the opportunity to enter into the highest covenant offered to people here on earth. No different than the offers Isaiah prophecies that women will offer men in the beginning of the millennium. Women do have the choice.

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Sarah wrote:
Melissa wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Stahura wrote::-? :-? :-? :-? Yeah, sure, God commanded some men to take certain wives. Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Did Brigham Young do this? Was he told specifically which wives to take? Nope, his attitude about the whole process was pretty relaxed. He just took whoever he wanted.
Seems odd that David and Solomon only sinned in taking wives that God DIDN"T give to them, but Brigham is just fine taking wives without them being Given to him, using his priesthood as justification.

Clearly polygamy has existed and by God's command, but the version practiced by Brigham Young does not align with the way Abraham/David/Solomon/Jacob practiced it(in that they did not sin, only by taking women that God did not specifically give to them). I believe that members were met with judgement because of this.
What are your sources proving that Brigham only took who he wanted. What are the facts?
There is a quote of Brigham saying that he wouldn't refuse any reasonable offer.
The offers are from women who want to be sealed for eternity to a worthy husband so they will have the opportunity to enter into the highest covenant offered to people here on earth. No different than the offers Isaiah prophecies that women will offer men in the beginning of the millennium. Women do have the choice.
I'm sorry Sarah but these women you speak of here are very selfish women and I do not agree with their tactics to snare (use) a man to gain her eternal salvation.

The Gospel is not a gospel that teaches people to use one another. These women you speak of did not need BY or any other prophet or apostle. There is no ranking of worthiness among priesthood callings. I don't like women being gathered and treated less than and I don't like men being used or seduced by selfish women.

Oh, and I don't believe the Isaiah scripture you are referring to has anything to do with any coming polygamy.

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Sarah
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Sarah »

I don't necessarily like the imbalance either, but it is the way God designed it for the progression of his children. The imbalance is not going to last forever. Remember this quote -

James E. Talmage, "The Eternity of Sex", Young Woman's Journal, Oct. 1914: 602-3 page 138:

"In the restored Church of Jesus Christ the Holy Priesthood is conferred, as an individual bestowal, upon men only, and this in accordance with Divine requirement. It is not given to woman to exercise the authority of the Priesthood independently; nevertheless, in the sacred endowments associated with the ordinances pertaining to the House of the Lord, woman shares with man the blessings of the Priesthood. When the frailities and imperfections of mortality are left behind, in the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.

"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."


One of the purposes of marriage is to learn that we need each other. Each sex has a gift that the other needs or wants. It is men's duty and role to offer marriage to the woman. Ever wonder why men usually do the proposing? It is the gift that they can give, to be the connection to the priesthood and to God here on earth for the woman. They can save the women, literally, by offering them marriage and to be sealed within the patriarchal order of the priesthood. Women cannot make that connection for themselves.

Women have a gift that the men need and want. A man's wife is the way he can become like God by her being able to create posterity and a kingdom for him. The sex act - the gift that he most desires - represents creation and life. So women have that gift to offer and give. A woman who "offers" marriage is really just proposing or requesting the gift that she desires. But the man is still free to decide if he wants to marry the woman or not. If he has compassion on her, then he will give her the most important part - the sealing ordinance - but the love part might not necessarily be there because of our mortal limitations on how we can love in this life.

This idea of each having a gift to give is why I always get upset when I see men talk like they are entitled to sex from their wives. This is a gift that one receives - not demands, expects, or even requests. You must be worthy of this gift, just as a man finds a potential mate worthy of his offer of marriage. How would a man feel if a woman demanded or even just requested to be married to him. It is a gift he has to offer, and he deserves the freedom when and to whom he will bestow this gift. The woman should be afforded the same freedom. But then we have the curse and injustice to deal with. All will be made right if women adhere to the laws of obedience and sacrifice.

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Sarah wrote:I don't necessarily like the imbalance either, but it is the way God designed it for the progression of his children. The imbalance is not going to last forever. Remember this quote -

James E. Talmage, "The Eternity of Sex", Young Woman's Journal, Oct. 1914: 602-3 page 138:

"In the restored Church of Jesus Christ the Holy Priesthood is conferred, as an individual bestowal, upon men only, and this in accordance with Divine requirement. It is not given to woman to exercise the authority of the Priesthood independently; nevertheless, in the sacred endowments associated with the ordinances pertaining to the House of the Lord, woman shares with man the blessings of the Priesthood. When the frailities and imperfections of mortality are left behind, in the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.

"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."


One of the purposes of marriage is to learn that we need each other. Each sex has a gift that the other needs or wants. It is men's duty and role to offer marriage to the woman. Ever wonder why men usually do the proposing? It is the gift that they can give, to be the connection to the priesthood and to God here on earth for the woman. They can save the women, literally, by offering them marriage and to be sealed within the patriarchal order of the priesthood. Women cannot make that connection for themselves.

Women have a gift that the men need and want. A man's wife is the way he can become like God by her being able to create posterity and a kingdom for him. The sex act - the gift that he most desires - represents creation and life. So women have that gift to offer and give. A woman who "offers" marriage is really just proposing or requesting the gift that she desires. But the man is still free to decide if he wants to marry the woman or not. If he has compassion on her, then he will give her the most important part - the sealing ordinance - but the love part might not necessarily be there because of our mortal limitations on how we can love in this life.

This idea of each having a gift to give is why I always get upset when I see men talk like they are entitled to sex from their wives. This is a gift that one receives - not demands, expects, or even requests. You must be worthy of this gift, just as a man finds a potential mate worthy of his offer of marriage. How would a man feel if a woman demanded or even just requested to be married to him. It is a gift he has to offer, and he deserves the freedom when and to whom he will bestow this gift. The woman should be afforded the same freedom. But then we have the curse and injustice to deal with. All will be made right if women adhere to the laws of obedience and sacrifice.
At first this started good and so I started reading it out loud to share it with my husband and then we each started raising our eyebrows.

There are many problems with his statement.

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

Is polygamy going to be reenacted come next Presidential election by church leadership? Did I miss the memo? Why is there so much trepidation and worry over something far from reality at this time? We'd think that the practice of forced multiple spouses is a law on the books right now. And even if it were would men have to marry more than one wife at gunpoint? Is this how God works? Believe me, if the practice were ever brought back, it will be on
God's timing, his way. God doesn't work by force, this is Satan's plan. In the mean time why worry about it. Too many what ifs, I'm not going to do this or that, women are being abused (it only takes one bad husband to do this), and the list goes on. What's a man with ED going to do with twenty wives, let alone one? Then one has twenty wives thinking they are either unattractive or not desirable and get all upset. What a mess, right? Life turns us over and slaps us silly with changes in a flash, no matter what desires we have lingering in our hearts.
I feel sad for men that think having several wives is a picnic with all the trimmings. When the trimmings are gone then what?

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Robert Sinclair »

To allow multiplication of wives and wealth, is to allow some, to be lifted up above others in their hearts, this is how Zion, was kept from being redeemed with King David and Solomon, read Deuteronomy 27:14-20, that both David and Solomon, were not to multiply horses, nor wives, or silver or gold, and each was to do a "book report" of the law, and meditate therein day and night, that their heart not be lifted up above his brethren.

Both did not obey this law of equality, and Zion, was not redeemed, in their days, neither in Joseph's or Brigham's, nor today, because of the division into classes, of rich and poor, not equal, and this not grudgingly. Good to come to understand these things, that you yourselves, might do book reports, on the words of Christ, and not lift your hearts, one above another.♡

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

The Parable of the Talents makes it clear that those who strive for advancing what God gave them in intellect, health, using what economic resources they are given to advance and meet the needs of their family while also striving to excel, will be blessed in this life - and that pattern may very well be extended into the next life. I have no doubt that those who would welcome polygamy will be blessed with additional wives and advancement in the next life while those who don't may be likened to the man who had just one talent but held onto it with dear life.

Something to consider Robert.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

freedomforall wrote:Is polygamy going to be reenacted come next Presidential election by church leadership? Did I miss the memo? Why is there so much trepidation and worry over something far from reality at this time? We'd think that the practice of forced multiple spouses is a law on the books right now. And even if it were would men have to marry more than one wife at gunpoint? Is this how God works? Believe me, if the practice were ever brought back, it will be on
God's timing, his way. God doesn't work by force, this is Satan's plan. In the mean time why worry about it. Too many what ifs, I'm not going to do this or that, women are being abused (it only takes one bad husband to do this), and the list goes on. What's a man with ED going to do with twenty wives, let alone one? Then one has twenty wives thinking they are either unattractive or not desirable and get all upset. What a mess, right? Life turns us over and slaps us silly with changes in a flash, no matter what desires we have lingering in our hearts.
I feel sad for men that think having several wives is a picnic with all the trimmings. When the trimmings are gone then what?
First, if we follow the patterns of nature humans appear suited best for one man and two or three wives, not twenty.

Second, maybe we don't need polygamy after all. Let's just call the dude in England with 800 children and ask if he could come over to Salt Lake and spend a few months impregnating hundreds (or thousands) of our single "sweet sisters" who are nearing their mid-30s with no prospects of marriage. And even though he is British judging from the picture he has good teeth, no overbite and appears to have good eyesight. And think of all the stakes worth of new LDS children he could make?' No, no need for polygamy to come back.

Robert Sinclair
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Posts: 11006
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Just some additional food for thought, the words of Jesus Christ say------

"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marrige: Neither can they die anymore............"

Interesting.♡

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Sarah
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Sarah »

Melissa wrote:
Sarah wrote:I don't necessarily like the imbalance either, but it is the way God designed it for the progression of his children. The imbalance is not going to last forever. Remember this quote -

James E. Talmage, "The Eternity of Sex", Young Woman's Journal, Oct. 1914: 602-3 page 138:

"In the restored Church of Jesus Christ the Holy Priesthood is conferred, as an individual bestowal, upon men only, and this in accordance with Divine requirement. It is not given to woman to exercise the authority of the Priesthood independently; nevertheless, in the sacred endowments associated with the ordinances pertaining to the House of the Lord, woman shares with man the blessings of the Priesthood. When the frailities and imperfections of mortality are left behind, in the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.

"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."


One of the purposes of marriage is to learn that we need each other. Each sex has a gift that the other needs or wants. It is men's duty and role to offer marriage to the woman. Ever wonder why men usually do the proposing? It is the gift that they can give, to be the connection to the priesthood and to God here on earth for the woman. They can save the women, literally, by offering them marriage and to be sealed within the patriarchal order of the priesthood. Women cannot make that connection for themselves.

Women have a gift that the men need and want. A man's wife is the way he can become like God by her being able to create posterity and a kingdom for him. The sex act - the gift that he most desires - represents creation and life. So women have that gift to offer and give. A woman who "offers" marriage is really just proposing or requesting the gift that she desires. But the man is still free to decide if he wants to marry the woman or not. If he has compassion on her, then he will give her the most important part - the sealing ordinance - but the love part might not necessarily be there because of our mortal limitations on how we can love in this life.

This idea of each having a gift to give is why I always get upset when I see men talk like they are entitled to sex from their wives. This is a gift that one receives - not demands, expects, or even requests. You must be worthy of this gift, just as a man finds a potential mate worthy of his offer of marriage. How would a man feel if a woman demanded or even just requested to be married to him. It is a gift he has to offer, and he deserves the freedom when and to whom he will bestow this gift. The woman should be afforded the same freedom. But then we have the curse and injustice to deal with. All will be made right if women adhere to the laws of obedience and sacrifice.
At first this started good and so I started reading it out loud to share it with my husband and then we each started raising our eyebrows.

There are many problems with his statement.
LOL. I was thinking about what I wrote last night and realized I didn't word it the right way there at the end. When I said that I think women should have the same freedom to bestow their gift, I wasn't thinking about offering it to any man she wanted, but that she should feel free to give her gift to her husband if and when she chooses and not feel pressured into giving.

But afterwards I was thinking, maybe if she ends up being sealed to more than one husband, there would be some choice as to whom and how much and that sort of thing. Who knows. I agree with Fiannan that the parable of the talents applies to marriage. Joseph Smith was reported to have compared the two. We have to do our part to love our spouses and keep our covenants, and those who are willing to give and receive more, will be given more. That's a good question too, as to how does the parable of the talents fit into the Law of Consecration or living the United Order. Obviously we would live in a state where there would be no poor, but would everyone receive exactly the same things? I don't think so. We will be given according to our wants and needs, and our Father in Heaven will give more talents and gifts to those who have magnified them and are ready to receive them. The problem with thinking that everyone will receive everything exactly equally is that there is no incentive to work and love and be attractive. Equality feeds a feeling of entitlement. That's why "having all things in common" has to be entered into by covenant, by those who have proven themselves worthy.

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

Fiannan wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Is polygamy going to be reenacted come next Presidential election by church leadership? Did I miss the memo? Why is there so much trepidation and worry over something far from reality at this time? We'd think that the practice of forced multiple spouses is a law on the books right now. And even if it were would men have to marry more than one wife at gunpoint? Is this how God works? Believe me, if the practice were ever brought back, it will be on
God's timing, his way. God doesn't work by force, this is Satan's plan. In the mean time why worry about it. Too many what ifs, I'm not going to do this or that, women are being abused (it only takes one bad husband to do this), and the list goes on. What's a man with ED going to do with twenty wives, let alone one? Then one has twenty wives thinking they are either unattractive or not desirable and get all upset. What a mess, right? Life turns us over and slaps us silly with changes in a flash, no matter what desires we have lingering in our hearts.
I feel sad for men that think having several wives is a picnic with all the trimmings. When the trimmings are gone then what?
First, if we follow the patterns of nature humans appear suited best for one man and two or three wives, not twenty. Latter-day saints aren't supposed to follow patterns of nature. They are to control all passions and throw off the natural man. Following nature is not God's way.

Second, maybe we don't need polygamy after all. Let's just call the dude in England with 800 children and ask if he could come over to Salt Lake and spend a few months impregnating hundreds (or thousands) of our single "sweet sisters" who are nearing their mid-30s with no prospects of marriage. And even though he is British judging from the picture he has good teeth, no overbite and appears to have good eyesight. And think of all the stakes worth of new LDS children he could make?' No, no need for polygamy to come back.
From https://www.lds.org/liahona/1998/10/the-family?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For some of us, the test in the schoolroom of mortality will be to want marriage and children in this life with all our hearts but to have them delayed or denied. Even such sorrow can be turned into a blessing by a just and loving Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. No one who strives with full faith and heart for the blessings of eternal life will be denied. And how great will be the joy and how much deeper the appreciation then—after enduring in patience and faith now.

So if a woman desires to be sealed to a man she will have it happen. Polygamy is not necessary. Read the Proclamation To The Family, where it says "one man, one woman."

Fiannan
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12983

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

freedomforall wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Is polygamy going to be reenacted come next Presidential election by church leadership? Did I miss the memo? Why is there so much trepidation and worry over something far from reality at this time? We'd think that the practice of forced multiple spouses is a law on the books right now. And even if it were would men have to marry more than one wife at gunpoint? Is this how God works? Believe me, if the practice were ever brought back, it will be on
God's timing, his way. God doesn't work by force, this is Satan's plan. In the mean time why worry about it. Too many what ifs, I'm not going to do this or that, women are being abused (it only takes one bad husband to do this), and the list goes on. What's a man with ED going to do with twenty wives, let alone one? Then one has twenty wives thinking they are either unattractive or not desirable and get all upset. What a mess, right? Life turns us over and slaps us silly with changes in a flash, no matter what desires we have lingering in our hearts.
I feel sad for men that think having several wives is a picnic with all the trimmings. When the trimmings are gone then what?
First, if we follow the patterns of nature humans appear suited best for one man and two or three wives, not twenty. Latter-day saints aren't supposed to follow patterns of nature. They are to control all passions and throw off the natural man. Following nature is not God's way.

Second, maybe we don't need polygamy after all. Let's just call the dude in England with 800 children and ask if he could come over to Salt Lake and spend a few months impregnating hundreds (or thousands) of our single "sweet sisters" who are nearing their mid-30s with no prospects of marriage. And even though he is British judging from the picture he has good teeth, no overbite and appears to have good eyesight. And think of all the stakes worth of new LDS children he could make?' No, no need for polygamy to come back.
From https://www.lds.org/liahona/1998/10/the-family?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For some of us, the test in the schoolroom of mortality will be to want marriage and children in this life with all our hearts but to have them delayed or denied. Even such sorrow can be turned into a blessing by a just and loving Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. No one who strives with full faith and heart for the blessings of eternal life will be denied. And how great will be the joy and how much deeper the appreciation then—after enduring in patience and faith now.

So if a woman desires to be sealed to a man she will have it happen. Polygamy is not necessary. Read the Proclamation To The Family, where it says "one man, one woman."
So no polygamy for her in this life, or kids if she does not go to a sperm bank, but she will be honored to share a husband and have spirit children in the next life. Got it.

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

Fiannan wrote:So no polygamy for her in this life, or kids if she does not go to a sperm bank, but she will be honored to share a husband and have spirit children in the next life. Got it.
Now we're on the same page.
A woman may get married and sealed in the temple and later her husband turns sour and breaks his covenants by following his natural man tendencies. They get divorced because of it. He loses all, but she, as long as she keeps her temple covenants and stays virtuous can and will have a husband in heaven. This is the promise to the faithful. No sperm banks necessary. Christ knows his sheep and they are numbered...even single women.
Conversely, if a man's wife goes sour, etc., as long as he stays virtuous, the same thing applies.

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

freedomforall wrote:
Fiannan wrote:So no polygamy for her in this life, or kids if she does not go to a sperm bank, but she will be honored to share a husband and have spirit children in the next life. Got it.
Now we're on the same page.
A woman may get married and sealed in the temple and later her husband turns sour and breaks his covenants by following his natural man tendencies. They get divorced because of it. He loses all, but she, as long as she keeps her temple covenants and stays virtuous can and will have a husband in heaven. This is the promise to the faithful. No sperm banks necessary. Christ knows his sheep and they are numbered...even single women.
Conversely, if a man's wife goes sour, etc., as long as he stays virtuous, the same thing applies.
No, the women who do not find husbands on earth, or whose husbands reject the Gospel will get to share a husband in the next life. We have been told the requirements for men are tougher due to the priesthood, and on top of that men are far less likely to be motivated by religion than women. The ratios are against women in this life but will be worse in the next. So polygamy WILL be the norm for higher levels.

As for sperm banks, do you have children? If so do you have the right to tell a woman who cannot find a husband in this life that not only is polygamy wrong but also seeking to be a mother in Zion through sperm donation is wrong as well?

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Fiannan wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Fiannan wrote:So no polygamy for her in this life, or kids if she does not go to a sperm bank, but she will be honored to share a husband and have spirit children in the next life. Got it.
Now we're on the same page.
A woman may get married and sealed in the temple and later her husband turns sour and breaks his covenants by following his natural man tendencies. They get divorced because of it. He loses all, but she, as long as she keeps her temple covenants and stays virtuous can and will have a husband in heaven. This is the promise to the faithful. No sperm banks necessary. Christ knows his sheep and they are numbered...even single women.
Conversely, if a man's wife goes sour, etc., as long as he stays virtuous, the same thing applies.
No, the women who do not find husbands on earth, or whose husbands reject the Gospel will get to share a husband in the next life. We have been told the requirements for men are tougher due to the priesthood, and on top of that men are far less likely to be motivated by religion than women. The ratios are against women in this life but will be worse in the next. So polygamy WILL be the norm for higher levels.

As for sperm banks, do you have children? If so do you have the right to tell a woman who cannot find a husband in this life that not only is polygamy wrong but also seeking to be a mother in Zion through sperm donation is wrong as well?
Please tell me how the young men who died before the age and or died and never heard the gospel enjoy the same promised blessings of a spouse and children?

And yes, a woman can be told to not engage in polygamy and not use sperm banks in this life. Just the same as gays are told to not enjoy a loving companion in this life or not be able to enjoy a temple sealing (salvation) - that's a really huge deal.

Women who use a man for sperm is no better than a man who uses a woman as a servant.

Also, what about the women who cannot have children at all for whatever abnormality she might have? Do we not care about her?

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

Please tell me how the young men who died before the age and or died and never heard the gospel enjoy the same promised blessings of a spouse and children?
You know the answer to that one.
And yes, a woman can be told to not engage in polygamy and not use sperm banks in this life. Just the same as gays are told to not enjoy a loving companion in this life or not be able to enjoy a temple sealing (salvation) - that's a really huge deal.
Big difference between homosexuality and a woman who has to use sperm donation or face 40 or 50 remaining years not only as a spinster but also barren.
Women who use a man for sperm is no better than a man who uses a woman as a servant.
Say what? Guy goes into clinic on lunch-break, guy leaves. He knows why he went there and what the results will be. Life, a family where one would not have otherwise existed, the Plan of Salvation having a chance with the spirits he brought into the world. He was not subject to anything negative unless he had a hard time finding a parking spot at the clinic.
Also, what about the women who cannot have children at all for whatever abnormality she might have? Do we not care about her?
Just because some people are born without eyes we should not feel guilty for enjoying a gorgeous sunset. Of course we should care about the women who cannot have children. The ones who cannot produce a viable egg, or have a genetic defect in their genotype, could get a woman to donate an egg so she can have a baby.

Kitkat
captain of 100
Posts: 594

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Kitkat »

Fiannan wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Fiannan wrote:So no polygamy for her in this life, or kids if she does not go to a sperm bank, but she will be honored to share a husband and have spirit children in the next life. Got it.
Now we're on the same page.
A woman may get married and sealed in the temple and later her husband turns sour and breaks his covenants by following his natural man tendencies. They get divorced because of it. He loses all, but she, as long as she keeps her temple covenants and stays virtuous can and will have a husband in heaven. This is the promise to the faithful. No sperm banks necessary. Christ knows his sheep and they are numbered...even single women.
Conversely, if a man's wife goes sour, etc., as long as he stays virtuous, the same thing applies.
No, the women who do not find husbands on earth, or whose husbands reject the Gospel will get to share a husband in the next life. We have been told the requirements for men are tougher due to the priesthood, and on top of that men are far less likely to be motivated by religion than women. The ratios are against women in this life but will be worse in the next. So polygamy WILL be the norm for higher levels.

As for sperm banks, do you have children? If so do you have the right to tell a woman who cannot find a husband in this life that not only is polygamy wrong but also seeking to be a mother in Zion through sperm donation is wrong as well?
Now...let us not pretend omniscience...unless you have actual knowledge it's only fair to say, polygamy MAY be the norm :D

BrotherOfMahonri
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1751

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

Kitkat wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Fiannan wrote:So no polygamy for her in this life, or kids if she does not go to a sperm bank, but she will be honored to share a husband and have spirit children in the next life. Got it.
Now we're on the same page.
A woman may get married and sealed in the temple and later her husband turns sour and breaks his covenants by following his natural man tendencies. They get divorced because of it. He loses all, but she, as long as she keeps her temple covenants and stays virtuous can and will have a husband in heaven. This is the promise to the faithful. No sperm banks necessary. Christ knows his sheep and they are numbered...even single women.
Conversely, if a man's wife goes sour, etc., as long as he stays virtuous, the same thing applies.
No, the women who do not find husbands on earth, or whose husbands reject the Gospel will get to share a husband in the next life. We have been told the requirements for men are tougher due to the priesthood, and on top of that men are far less likely to be motivated by religion than women. The ratios are against women in this life but will be worse in the next. So polygamy WILL be the norm for higher levels.

As for sperm banks, do you have children? If so do you have the right to tell a woman who cannot find a husband in this life that not only is polygamy wrong but also seeking to be a mother in Zion through sperm donation is wrong as well?
Now...let us not pretend omniscience...unless you have actual knowledge it's only fair to say, polygamy MAY be the norm :D
How about a prophecy Fiannan? Come on now, study the sons of Mosiah, get the spirit of prophecy (doctrinal through and through) then come state what you did Fiannan in the spirit and power of God. :D

It seems like this is all based on man's scholarly research, science and monkey-driven carnal natural man alpha male studies. :ymsick: I'm sure you have a ton of insights and research I never care to have (the spirit leads me away from such philosophies of men) - congrats.

I'm confident in such a quest (spirit of prophecy on the matter) you will find as Balaam found himself, attempting to curse Israel only to find the spirit causing him to prophecy and bless them - attempting to pin Polygamy on the gospel only to find the flesh profiteth nothing and Jacob 2 is clearer than clear, polygamy is the flesh times Brigham's never ending wife taking - and it profiteth nothing but the flesh.

Until you and others repent of such erroneous future hopeful status, stay the hell away from my daughters - as this "alpha male" is the kind with a shotgun on his lap ;)

Fiannan
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12983

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

How about a prophecy Fiannan? Come on now, study the sons of Mosiah, get the spirit of prophecy (doctrinal through and through) then come state what you did Fiannan in the spirit and power of God. :D
Uh...okay. So you channel all your posts on internet forums?
It seems like this is all based on man's scholarly research, science and monkey-driven carnal natural man alpha male studies. :ymsick: I'm sure you have a ton of insights and research I never care to have (the spirit leads me away from such philosophies of men) - congrats.
Prohibiting monogamy was based on Pagan Rome and Greece traditions, not the Bible. Oh, and try science out sometime, didn't Brigham Young encourage people to learn and grow academically?
I'm confident in such a quest (spirit of prophecy on the matter) you will find as Balaam found himself, attempting to curse Israel only to find the spirit causing him to prophecy and bless them - attempting to pin Polygamy on the gospel only to find the flesh profiteth nothing and Jacob 2 is clearer than clear, polygamy is the flesh times Brigham's never ending wife taking - and it profiteth nothing but the flesh.


Okay, I cite scripture, science and psychology as a defense of polygamy and your toss a prophet of God under the bus. I think I am on a firmer foundation than you.
Until you and others repent of such erroneous future hopeful status, stay the hell away from my daughters - as this "alpha male" is the kind with a shotgun on his lap
Call me a feminist but I would rather, as a father, teach my daughters how to use a gun on their own. ;) Then again, I believe in empowering women as well as trusting them to make informed decisions on their own rather than follow the traditions of their fathers without question.

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

Fiannan wrote:
Please tell me how the young men who died before the age and or died and never heard the gospel enjoy the same promised blessings of a spouse and children?
You know the answer to that one.
And yes, a woman can be told to not engage in polygamy and not use sperm banks in this life. Just the same as gays are told to not enjoy a loving companion in this life or not be able to enjoy a temple sealing (salvation) - that's a really huge deal.
Big difference between homosexuality and a woman who has to use sperm donation or face 40 or 50 remaining years not only as a spinster but also barren.
Women who use a man for sperm is no better than a man who uses a woman as a servant.
Say what? Guy goes into clinic on lunch-break, guy leaves. He knows why he went there and what the results will be. Life, a family where one would not have otherwise existed, the Plan of Salvation having a chance with the spirits he brought into the world. He was not subject to anything negative unless he had a hard time finding a parking spot at the clinic.
Also, what about the women who cannot have children at all for whatever abnormality she might have? Do we not care about her?
Just because some people are born without eyes we should not feel guilty for enjoying a gorgeous sunset. Of course we should care about the women who cannot have children. The ones who cannot produce a viable egg, or have a genetic defect in their genotype, could get a woman to donate an egg so she can have a baby.
:-Q :-Q :-Q

I the Lord delight in the chastity of women.

let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

User avatar
Melissa
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1697

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Fiannan wrote:
How about a prophecy Fiannan? Come on now, study the sons of Mosiah, get the spirit of prophecy (doctrinal through and through) then come state what you did Fiannan in the spirit and power of God. :D
Uh...okay. So you channel all your posts on internet forums?
It seems like this is all based on man's scholarly research, science and monkey-driven carnal natural man alpha male studies. :ymsick: I'm sure you have a ton of insights and research I never care to have (the spirit leads me away from such philosophies of men) - congrats.
Prohibiting monogamy was based on Pagan Rome and Greece traditions, not the Bible. Oh, and try science out sometime, didn't Brigham Young encourage people to learn and grow academically?
I'm confident in such a quest (spirit of prophecy on the matter) you will find as Balaam found himself, attempting to curse Israel only to find the spirit causing him to prophecy and bless them - attempting to pin Polygamy on the gospel only to find the flesh profiteth nothing and Jacob 2 is clearer than clear, polygamy is the flesh times Brigham's never ending wife taking - and it profiteth nothing but the flesh.


Okay, I cite scripture, science and psychology as a defense of polygamy and your toss a prophet of God under the bus. I think I am on a firmer foundation than you.
Until you and others repent of such erroneous future hopeful status, stay the hell away from my daughters - as this "alpha male" is the kind with a shotgun on his lap
Call me a feminist but I would rather, as a father, teach my daughters how to use a gun on their own. ;) Then again, I believe in empowering women as well as trusting them to make informed decisions on their own rather than follow the traditions of their fathers without question.
Must have hit something you sure seem like you want to stick it to him.

What if your daughters tell you they want nothing to do with polygamy because it offends them? Would you be okay with that? Would you cease talking about it for their sake? Or would you rant about how God designed her to thrive in such a situation and tell her than men are designed to desire polygamy. Would you tell her that she needs to populate the earth along with her sister wives?
Ie....tell her she really doesn't matter?

And, congrats on teaching your daughters to use a gun and defend themselves, I hope you were protecting them until they could protect themselves....

User avatar
Melissa
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1697

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Fiannan wrote:
Please tell me how the young men who died before the age and or died and never heard the gospel enjoy the same promised blessings of a spouse and children?
You know the answer to that one.
And yes, a woman can be told to not engage in polygamy and not use sperm banks in this life. Just the same as gays are told to not enjoy a loving companion in this life or not be able to enjoy a temple sealing (salvation) - that's a really huge deal.
Big difference between homosexuality and a woman who has to use sperm donation or face 40 or 50 remaining years not only as a spinster but also barren.
Women who use a man for sperm is no better than a man who uses a woman as a servant.
Say what? Guy goes into clinic on lunch-break, guy leaves. He knows why he went there and what the results will be. Life, a family where one would not have otherwise existed, the Plan of Salvation having a chance with the spirits he brought into the world. He was not subject to anything negative unless he had a hard time finding a parking spot at the clinic.
Also, what about the women who cannot have children at all for whatever abnormality she might have? Do we not care about her?
Just because some people are born without eyes we should not feel guilty for enjoying a gorgeous sunset. Of course we should care about the women who cannot have children. The ones who cannot produce a viable egg, or have a genetic defect in their genotype, could get a woman to donate an egg so she can have a baby.

About the young boys who die too early...I was hoping to hear your answer. Where do their wives come from?

freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by freedomforall »

I don't.

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