Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

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butterfly
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Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by butterfly »

I've been a member my whole life. I've studied and asked and prayed about polygamy with faith and trying to understand. And though I've heard all the standard answers that we hear at church, I just don't get it! Why do we teach about the love between a man and a woman for eternity and then hear that it's just all going to change and we're supposed to be ok with another woman around? I've heard that there is some discrepancy as far as to how many people may be asked to follow polygamy. Is it something we'll all have to do if we want a celestial marriage? Can we turn it down? It never seemed like Emma Smith really was given the option to turn it down, it was polygamy or hell, right?
Do any of you feel okay with this and if so, how? I love my husband incredibly, I just don't see how I could do it, I can't bear to even think about it.

worthit
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by worthit »

Is it something we'll all have to do if we want a celestial marriage?
no. not needed.

butterfly
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by butterfly »

Seriously?? How do you know?

worthit
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by worthit »

Because Joseph Smith fought Polygamy. The original section 101 of the 1835 D&C says no adultery, no polygamy. Removed (1852), replaced with section 132 in 1876. You can look it up online.
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... 1835?p=259" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Also a free book, well documented, available online is here, so you can read for yourself.
http://restorationbookstore.org/article ... 1/chp1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, new and everlasting covenant of marriage is between **a** man and **a** woman. According to sec 132.

Sleep well.

worthit
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by worthit »

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Last edited by worthit on September 7th, 2014, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Maybe it is WE who are wrong about polygamy. Maybe JS did not intend for it to be a bunch of wives for one man; maybe these sealings were for something else. It might be wise to study the history behind D&C 132 and how it came about; how many revelations it comprises; where those breaks are in the chapter; the context behind each break; what it means to connect the hearts of the children to the fathers. :-)

worthit
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by worthit »

Thanks. Sorry. Really.

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triple777
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by triple777 »

When the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ says not to live it I don't live it; when he says to live it, I will live it. No different from the law of consecration. We don't live it now. Will we in the future follow this law?

I can imagine many rules or laws in heaven that if revealed to man would seem to be impossible, crazy and unbelievable. Man, mortal man, can not value heavens laws or even judge those laws but with an eye based on our earthly experience, which is corrupt and fallible. Just like Eisenstein stated that judging a fish to be completely stupid by how well it may climb a tree. Human try to do the same thing to God's laws, saying they are stupid when we don't have God's perspective and knowledge.

This law is one that has not been follow honestly by very many people on the earth. Even in the Book of Mormon times, God forbid this practice. Most natural men and women can not follow this law as God intends it to be followed. Thus, is has been taken away. Once again Jesus has tried to give us the full law and just like in Moses times, we the "saints" have rejected Jesus' higher laws. Judging God's higher laws in our carnal state is a mistake. You then judge un-righteously God himself to be evil and cruel and uncaring. However, if we were to be enlighten by the Holy spirit as to the nature, intent, righteousness and love these law could provide to mankind then we would have a different feeling.

I find it highly hypocritical for gay and lesbian rights groups to want their view respected and how the whole world Babylon echos those views yet polygamy is still a taboo subject.

God has made his view on this very clear. It is a higher law. When God decides to give his children his laws he will always try and give them the highest laws available for them to live and become happy. Only sin, and the people rejecting God's laws are lower laws introduced to them. In Moses, day the people were so wicked and sinful that the lowest of all laws was given. The Moses law as it was nick named Mosaic law was born. Yet that was not God's intent. He want to give them the highest laws and also wanted to show his face to them and come among them or rather let them come to him. For God (Jesus Christ in this case) to show himself to these people a certain level of righteousness must be obtain. I believe at least a Terrestrial life must be maintained for him to show himself to them.

These Higher laws will be established and lived prior to Christ coming to the new Jerusalem. New Jerusalem will be build from the ground up all the while living the higher laws.

So something is going to happen from now until then. What will it be? The gathering of the saints will change all of this. The church will be cleansed from within. Persecution will weed many out. Then the second culling will be when the new laws are en-placed. Some will then leave not being willing to follow God's laws. Those saints that follow the Savior to the end will then receive all the he has and all knowledge will be given to them. ONLY then will those people who attain this level will understand fully these laws and their significance.

Of course, those that follow these laws only after being revealed to them by the proper servant of God will have some understanding of their meaning. We are promised in the millennium all these laws will be explained in full. Even how the earth was made and constructed and how the universe came to being, ect.

Any questions? Polygamy is a higher law. Very few on this earth have ever lived it righteously. Most of God's people have not been asked to live this law because of our unbelief and for our own good. It will be lived at some future time only when the Lord requires it of his people. It will be lived by those in the church during the millennium. It is a voluntary system.

Some notes: Christ lived this higher law while on earth though it is hidden and not published by the Lord himself. Those men and women who will not live this law can not have Eternal life but you may go to the celestial kingdom, you will just be angles and not live as God lives. You won't have a family and will not have children. Your sex organs will not function and produce spirit children, which God's perfect eternal body does.(some believe though I have not heard any opinions of reliable sources that Angels don't have sex organs at all, or that sex is impossible to even perform, that right is only given to those that are eternally married. If anyone could get a quote about this I would love to read it.) By the way this is one of THE highest blessing every to be bestowed on a once mortal man and women. This is the difference that Joseph Smith referred to when he stated there are 3 degrees of Glory within the Celestial kingdom itself. He referenced only the highest degree must be obtained through eternal marriage. The other degrees are Angels that are servants to God. So do you want to be a servant to God? Or do you want to be equal in God's powers and abilities? He says he will share all his powers and abilities with those that love him and follow his laws. So should we let Earthly traditions and thoughts prevail in our hearts about God's laws? Who is the God of this world? Has his traditions and lies corrupted our own ideas about the relationship between man and women? Who should teach us about the proper relationships of man and women? Will you listen to the Lord when he teaches? Or are you one of those that has to perish before the rest may enter the promise land?

Kitkat
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Kitkat »

If you are like me you may never have even known there was another Side to the polygamy story.

Emma claims Joseph never practiced it, Jacob said it was an abomination, Abraham's family was torn apart by it, David and Solomon were condemned for it, and Brigham Young's history of making it mandatory is shady at best. It does not have a good track record for bringing forth good fruit.

We have been given the knowledge of good and evil, we must use it to discern for ourselves. Jesus tells you to judge by the fruit, and polygamy has bad fruit.

Joseph said true doctrine will be delicious to you...polygamy is only appealing to man's carnal side. I do not know many women who think it is going to be enjoyable.

I think it would be difficult for any man to focus on a relationship with god when you have more than 3 dozen wives to attend to, not to mention trying to be a meaningful part in your children's lives. The fruits just do not seem that delicious to me.

And as for the angel with the flaming sword, that is just blasphemous, why would god take away someone's agency?

When I decided to toss out the doctrine of polygamy, especially as it was preached by Brigham young, I had a strong witness that doing so would make me a more devoted wife, more pleased to go through life trying to become one with my spouse, and that is good fruit to me.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

Joseph said true doctrine will be delicious to you...polygamy is only appealing to man's carnal side. I do not know many women who think it is going to be enjoyable.
And yet evolutionary psychology says humans were designed to live in it psychologically and physically. Check the writings of Christopher Ryan.

Of course there are women who do not like polygamy, just as there are some women who like Metallica and some like Miley Cyrus, some eat meat, some are vegans, some like other women, some don't and some would rather share a quality man than settle on someone who is a were leftover. Why not allow women the freedom to choose?

I have stated earlier the demographic of non-member women who would find polygamy acceptable if not preferable is not the one that would generally fit in with white shirt conformity that now has infected the body of our religion. Polygamy might be the the great sifting that would cause many LDS who are more concerned with upholding the norms of 1950s materialistic America than living a lifestyle more akin to the Hebrew patriarchs that we come close to in our words but would feel extremely uncomfortable with in regards to the way they lived the commandments of God.

Remember that scene in the 1940s Brigham Young movie where Porter Rockwell (played by John Carradine) explains that Mormons could take over the world because women were more open to the celestial law than men so LDS men would be able to convert non-member women in droves and live in polygamy, thus creating large posterities, raised in the Gospel, who would then go out and repeat the process?

Worked for Islam. ;)

ebenezerarise
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by ebenezerarise »

You feel good about it through prayer and study of why it was necessary when the Lord commanded it. Will you be commanded to live such a law?

I think the bigger question is this: are you willing to do the Lord's will? Just how far will you go?

It's a fair question. Many have had to wrestle with angels over God's will. Why should any of us be any different?

worthit
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by worthit »

Shouldn't the stories and justifications agree with basic doctrine? Like Jules pointed out, why would God take away someone's agency? Quoting psychologists, demographics, and movies doesn't make it so.

Kitkat
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Kitkat »

What completely took me off guard is that I never knew there was another side to the traditional narrative. Study it, it's really fascinating. Joseph and Emma both denied ever practicing it, and they actually tried to file a law suit against those defaming his name. The histories are messy, the characters are not here to speak for themselves, and so my invite is to study it out and ask The Lord

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

worthit wrote:Shouldn't the stories and justifications agree with basic doctrine? Like Jules pointed out, why would God take away someone's agency? Quoting psychologists, demographics, and movies doesn't make it so.
That was actually Kitkat, however, I fully agree with her! As far as I know, there is nothing written in JS hand about this angel with the sword.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Comments in blue below...
Kitkat wrote:If you are like me you may never have even known there was another Side to the polygamy story.

Emma claims Joseph never practiced it, Jacob said it was an abomination, Abraham's family was torn apart by it, David and Solomon were condemned for it, and Brigham Young's history of making it mandatory is shady at best. It does not have a good track record for bringing forth good fruit.

IF what you think is true, why would Joseph say something like this? “‘Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood;10 and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne11 and kingdom of David is to be taken from him12 and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.13’ (Teachings, p. 339.)
10. D&C 124:28.
11. 2 Sam. 3:10; Isa. 9:7.
12. D&C 121:37; D&C 132:39.
13. Ps. 132:11; Acts 2:30.

Why would Father perpetuate such a kingdom, where a 1000 women are married to one man?


We have been given the knowledge of good and evil, we must use it to discern for ourselves. Jesus tells you to judge by the fruit, and polygamy has bad fruit.

Almost all are unrighteous and very few stand righteous before the Lord. Can a wick tree bring forth good fruit? Yes, Abraham is an example, but he is the exception! But what we judge as required and good is vastly different from what G_d would... for His ways are not our ways. If they were then we would except many things we have rejected in the past.

Joseph said true doctrine will be delicious to you...polygamy is only appealing to man's carnal side. I do not know many women who think it is going to be enjoyable.

And you have talked to how many who have and are living this Principle? The fact is it requires more women for it to appeal to to have anyone living this lifestyle.

I think it would be difficult for any man to focus on a relationship with god when you have more than 3 dozen wives to attend to, not to mention trying to be a meaningful part in your children's lives. The fruits just do not seem that delicious to me.

I except that is your opinion. As for a man with 36 wives, you are only talking about 10 to 100 families though out all of human history. The ones we know of all were usually great men of G_d. It appear in the sight of no other evidences, that is not true or supported by the accounts we have.

And as for the angel with the flaming sword, that is just blasphemous, why would god take away someone's agency?

He doesn't. However if we make covenants to do something contingent upon us being allowed to come down here. Jonah, Jesus, Abraham, Joseph, Lehi, Isaiah, John the Baptist and Isaac... many others have been commanded to do something that might likely risk there lives. It they reject, G_d points out that if they are unwilling to keep their covenant, then there is no purpose of them being here in this world, and He reminds them such and if they do not reconsider, Father will bring them home! Not that some required sacrifices are not arrested, but it must be offered!

P.S. Jules: 'That was actually Kitkat, however, I fully agree with her! As far as I know, there is nothing written in JS hand about this angel with the sword.' Have you ever read Mary E. Lighteners Journal? As I recall, she was one of His wives and she related the account to us.


When I decided to toss out the doctrine of polygamy, especially as it was preached by Brigham young, I had a strong witness that doing so would make me a more devoted wife, more pleased to go through life trying to become one with my spouse, and that is good fruit to me.

If that is where you are upon the path, stay the course. The path of eternal progression is much longer then you could imagine!
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on September 8th, 2014, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

Why debate the doctrine of polygamy as it was revealed in the Latter Days? Why not, the next time you are called to give a talk in sacrament, get up and repeat the idea that polygamy is evil and that it was inserted by Brigham Young?

Go ahead and then come back and report. :D

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gkearney
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by gkearney »

The issue we have here is one of conflicting values. To some, as the original poster would suggest plural marriage is an shocking betrayal of a fundamental family value they hold to. To other Latter-day Saints while no longer practicing plural marriage it is part of their family history and the rejection of the historic practice is seen by they as some kind of inditement of their families past and the morality of their ancestors.

Neither view seems reconcilable with the other.

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azalea.rubicon
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by azalea.rubicon »

I'm not saying I'm FOR or against Polygamy but sometimes we react so violently with commandments and teachings we know nothing about. Our understanding of things are so kindergarten yet we suppose to know things. Maybe we just need to trust the Lord and the prophet he's given revelation to before we give our violent reaction. We may or may not be given this commandment again but if we do, don't you think that maybe the Lord will prepare things first in a way that this would not be too shocking to everyone? We need to remember that our abhorrence for Polygamy is viewed from the human/carnal perspective. Maybe this isn't how it's supposed to be. Maybe the Lord will not require this from everyone else. Only those that are obedient and worthy enough will be able to obey such things.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by oneClimbs »

The problem I have with polygamy in the context that it seems to be understood today, is while the wife thinks of herself as married and committed to her husband and turning her thoughts to no one else, the husband in the polygamous relationship never stops dating, never stops looking, any woman out there is a potential mate, thus his heart can never be 100% committed to his wife.

This simple realization flies in the face of so many scriptures that indicate that a man and a wife shall be one flesh, and that "Thou shalt love thy wife [singular] with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else." D&C 42:22

I get that the Lord can sometimes give a different commandment to the same people at a different time, e.g., Nephi cutting off the head of Laban when the commandment is "thou shalt not kill," but are instances like that exceptions under particular situations?

Perhaps polygamy institutionalized among the Saints was one of these exceptions? I haven't ruled out this possibility. One test being practicing it, another being living it, and another being discarding it when commanded. Perhaps the only thing that mattered was the obedience and not the practice itself.

The thought just occurred to me the other day, that if polygamy was a possibility in the church today, how impossible it would be to have my heart committed to my wife alone. You would still be at liberty to date and court while your wife would not be. It's like she was the only one really married. It is difficult to make sense of, but then again, so are many other things.

I think these deliberate enigmas provide an interesting challenge to life. Part of me wants to have all the answers right now, but another part of me senses that the agency I have to deliberate, to ponder and think about these things, to study and consider develops my mind and perspective in a powerful way. Where will my thoughts lead? Will my mind choose the godly way or succumb to the enticing of a temporal perspective. I may settle in to a perspective that I believe is correct only to be exposed to a new truth that shatters that previous paradigm. Initially this type of thing was uncomfortable, but I have come to learn that the truth is always worth knowing.

"I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken." (2 Nephi 9:40)

It can be exhausting to have to back and rethink things and rebuilt a new paradigm that is hopefully closer to the truth, but what else is there? It's good to learn that you have been wrong about something and to know it is wrong, to me it is just as important as knowing you are right about something, because in both cases, it is the truth that is being revealed. We have to learn to love the truth rather than what we may think or want to be true.

My 2 cents.

Sunshine2014
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Sunshine2014 »

There's always the idea: More women will make it to the celestial kingdom than men. That seems like a logical reason for polygamy to me. Although it doesn't make me 'like' polygamy any more. If all beings must have a mate and there are unequal numbers of male and female, then it seems pretty obvious what the solution would be...

Just offering something I heard. Like the OP, there are other things about polygamy that I find illogical, or contradictory to fundamental principles to the gospel. :-\

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oneClimbs
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by oneClimbs »

Sunshine2014 wrote:There's always the idea: More women will make it to the celestial kingdom than men. That seems like a logical reason for polygamy to me. Although it doesn't make me 'like' polygamy any more. If all beings must have a mate and there are unequal numbers of male and female, then it seems pretty obvious what the solution would be...

Just offering something I heard. Like the OP, there are other things about polygamy that I find illogical, or contradictory to fundamental principles to the gospel. :-\
Yeah that is the one thing it seems like the doctrine of eternal marriage creates. If marriages can last eternally and that is the economy of heaven, then what do you do when you have more of one gender than another? Plural marriage seems inevitable for some, but that doesn't make it mandatory for everyone because that creates another problem: What if you have too many women but not enough for everyone to have a plural marriage? Plural marriage can't possibly be mandatory then, under those circumstances.

It seems like the a realistic scenario is that plural marriage does exist but only when necessary. Assuming there are equal or more women than men that are always exalted, but what if there are more men?

Perhaps that is why there are more worlds than one. Maybe continual creation allows for there to be a balance. Maybe in the eternal worlds, a woman or a man who was single in this life might marry someone from another world in those cases where there are no more available options? I dunno. This world will end, but there have been many who have gone before and many that will exist hereafter. If cross-world marriage is possible, there wouldn't need to be polygamy in the afterlife.

I'm sure there will be a lot of surprises in the next life.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

What I still don't get is why some people are so opposed to polygamy, and even if it came back in the LDS Church it would not be required.

As stated earlier, some people are into some things, others not. I know a guy who is extremely liberal, but once the topic of bio-technology came up and he said he would never donate because he would never, ever want a lesbian to perhaps be raising a biological child of his. I know another guy who is a very conservative, pro-family, pro-Putin Russian. He went in a few years ago and donated. When asked he said that lesbians were as much under the concept of "multiply and replenish the earth" as heterosexual women.

So whose seed will be multiplied? Who has allowed more spirits the opportunity to be born into a nation that believes that people have a right to search out religion?

Same with polygamy. Some men really love the responsibility to raising large families and would be willing to do so for decades. And there are plenty of women, maybe not a majority but certainly a significant minority, that would be willing to share a fantastic man than settle on spinsterhood or a leftover. Why not allow it?

PS, the Russian, who is not even LDS, said it would be way cool to be married to five women with five children each. Why shouldn't this Russian guy, who obviously is healthy genetically, be allowed to do this if there are five women willing to partner with him?

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oneClimbs
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by oneClimbs »

@Fiannan No doubt there are some out there that could probably do just fine with it. I believe that there shouldn't be any legislation punishing or restricting relationships with the only exception being children deemed underaged. People are opposed to polygamy for a variety of reasons. Many women probably don't like the idea of "sharing" a husband, just like many men wouldn't like the idea of "sharing" a wife.

I have several daughters and I understand the concept that I can love each of them individually, and the responsibility I have of giving equal time to them and caring for their well-being, physically, psychologically and spiritually. So in one instance, how is plural marriage any different than having multiple children? The kids can understand that mom and dad can always have more kids and that this doesn't mean that you are rejecting them or replacing them. In the same way, couldn't one wife understand plural marriage in a similar manner?

While that's possible, I still think that there is a dramatic difference between a parent-child relationship and a husband-wife relationship. The sexual aspect of it is certainly a big difference, but there's also the psychological fidelity to your spouse. The woman chooses a man, they are married and that's it, there's no one else. The man on the other hand always has options and every single woman around him is a new potential wife. How can a couple be equally yolked in that situation? No doubt that cultural norms play a huge role in influencing my feelings on the matter. I've never lived in a polygamous culture, I only know the monogamous lifestyle.

No doubt heavenly culture is different. There are many cases of plural marriage in the scriptures and it doesn't ever seem to be condemned in the Bible, but it is in the Book of Mormon. I've catalogued the various accounts where men had 2 wives in the Bible and while they are few in number, there is no indication that they are wicked men, save for David and Solomon who seem very exceptional in their having a vast quantity of wives.

Abraham doesn't really count as a polygamist in my book. It doesn't appear that he married Hagar, she was just used as kind of a surrogate for Sarah it seems. Once Hagar leaves and Sarah dies, Abraham remarries but he never has more than one wife at a time.

Jacob is another interesting situation. He was tricked into having two wives and then the concubines were used by the wives to have a "child battle" to earn Jacob's love. Talk about a crazy situation. These situations make the women miserable, spiteful and competitive. Show me a case in scripture where we have a loving polygamous family, there isn't one; there's no pattern or doctrine for one from what I can tell.

Perhaps it just takes a godlike people to be involved in that kind of relationship so in that respect, perhaps there is indeed something to it that we are just too perverse to understand.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Col. Flagg »

Butterfly... you can rest easy and be assured that polygamy not only isn't doctrinal, it didn't even come from Joseph Smith or God. Here's how it all got started in Nauvoo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Cochran

Our Heavenly Father delights in the chastity and happiness of his daughters and would never and could never subject them to something as wicked and evil as polygamy. It is a practice born of the natural man to justify their carnal desires. Polygamy makes property out of women, indignifies them, renders love meaningless and negates all the emotions and bonds between two people while creating unnatural relationships with the children of different mothers... that is not of God. Any man who is sensitive to the feelings and emotions of women should find polygamy disgusting and reprehensible! I know I could never subject my wife to knowing that I was having relations with another woman (or multiple women). Not only would I never do that, I could never do it out of the deep love, respect and attraction I have for her and the bonds we share together and with our children. I can't even begin to imagine how many women's hearts were broken and the anguish many went through during the Nauvoo time period knowing their husband was having sexual relations in another room with another woman because of the so-called 'higher law' :ymsick: ... that is just plain sick and evil!

By the way, did you ever hear what President Hinckley said about polygamy when being interviewed with Larry King?

In reference to polygamy...

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lkl_00.shtml

King: "You condemn it".
Pres. Hinckley: "I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal".

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

Our Heavenly Father delights in the chastity and happiness of his daughters and would never and could never subject them to something as wicked and evil as polygamy.
Therefore Moses lied, right? That Old Testament must create a great deal of discomfort. So if polygamy is evil, and therefore the Old Testament cannot be trusted, then the New Testament is merely built on sand. Of course we can turn to the Koran...wait, that would be wrong too as the Koran and Hadith allows for up to four wives.

Maybe we could turn to the gods and goddesses of ancient Sumeria, but then that whole thing about priestesses having most of the power, and their version of the sacrament...far from implied Freudian worship of the mother, the eternal virgin with the magical power of reproduction, of your post. Would you like a picture of how societies in which women control religion feel about sexuality? Let's just say it is far from some sort of false Victorian ideal. Inanna was no prude.

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