Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

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Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

shadow wrote:
Stahura wrote::-? :-? :-? :-? Yeah, sure, God commanded some men to take certain wives. Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Did Brigham Young do this? Was he told specifically which wives to take? Nope, his attitude about the whole process was pretty relaxed. He just took whoever he wanted.
Seems odd that David and Solomon only sinned in taking wives that God DIDN"T give to them, but Brigham is just fine taking wives without them being Given to him, using his priesthood as justification.

Clearly polygamy has existed and by God's command, but the version practiced by Brigham Young does not align with the way Abraham/David/Solomon/Jacob practiced it(in that they did not sin, only by taking women that God did not specifically give to them). I believe that members were met with judgement because of this.
How do you know God didn't tell Brigham who to marry? Maybe his priesthood justified him. You can't prove otherwise, can you?
His teachings on the subject make it clear that he believed he was justified without God telling him to do so. God has made it clear, the men who had multiple wives ONLY SINNED in the instances in which they took wives that weren't given to them. The same standard would apply for Brigham Young. God is unchanging.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines? That is the figure that I have read he had.

And Solomon had 1000 wives and concubines. So were all appointed? None chosen by Solomon?

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

Fiannan wrote:
Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.

God didn't give them permission for all of the women they had. The ones they did have by his permission, was counted as righteousness.
Last edited by Zathura on January 15th, 2016, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.
Says who?

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

If there was a scripture where God himself says exactly what I'm saying word for word , you still wouldn't want to accept that Brigham Young made a mistake and would find some justification.

Move on and keep your opinion, that's your right. I know when I'm talking to someone that won't budge in light of evidence and proof.

I'll continue with my belief, and you with yours, and we will continue being brothers in Christ :)

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Stahura wrote:
shadow wrote:
Stahura wrote::-? :-? :-? :-? Yeah, sure, God commanded some men to take certain wives. Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Did Brigham Young do this? Was he told specifically which wives to take? Nope, his attitude about the whole process was pretty relaxed. He just took whoever he wanted.
Seems odd that David and Solomon only sinned in taking wives that God DIDN"T give to them, but Brigham is just fine taking wives without them being Given to him, using his priesthood as justification.

Clearly polygamy has existed and by God's command, but the version practiced by Brigham Young does not align with the way Abraham/David/Solomon/Jacob practiced it(in that they did not sin, only by taking women that God did not specifically give to them). I believe that members were met with judgement because of this.
How do you know God didn't tell Brigham who to marry? Maybe his priesthood justified him. You can't prove otherwise, can you?
His teachings on the subject make it clear that he believed he was justified without God telling him to do so. God has made it clear, the men who had multiple wives ONLY SINNED in the instances in which they took wives that weren't given to them. The same standard would apply for Brigham Young. God is unchanging.
It's really kind of hard to feel good being a woman reading this exchange. No wonder there are femanist. Geez, we are people too but it seems we are less than men. Not cool and not right.

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.

God didn't give them permission for all of the women they had. The ones they did have by his permission, was counted as righteousness.
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

Fiannan wrote:
Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.
Says who?
I will give you this, although I'm sure you've read it many times and choose to see something else.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.


39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

Melissa wrote:
Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.

God didn't give them permission for all of the women they had. The ones they did have by his permission, was counted as righteousness.
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.
Well, this is all assuming that D&C 132 is legit.

Even if D&C 132 is legit, I will never believe that this is something that God would do on a large scale, only with a few men throughout history.
Even that however, is hard for me to swallow.

If D&C 132 is not legit, which I accept as a possibility, then I Don't support any type of polygamy, and it's all an abomination.

As for myself, I will never practice this, even if the church decided to reinstate it(It won't), even if the church reinstated it and claimed as Brigham Young did, that it's required to enter the Celestial Kingdom, I would not do such a thing, I would not believe it.

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shadow
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by shadow »

Melissa wrote:
Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Like Solomon, and David. They were told which specific wives to marry.
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.

God didn't give them permission for all of the women they had. The ones they did have by his permission, was counted as righteousness.
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.
So a wife is a sex slave to the husband? I'll have to let my wife know. On second thought, I'd be referring to her as my ex wife if I explained it to her. I'll just keep it hush hush.

Fiannan
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Fiannan »

As for myself, I will never practice this, even if the church decided to reinstate it(It won't), even if the church reinstated it and claimed as Brigham Young did, that it's required to enter the Celestial Kingdom, I would not do such a thing, I would not believe it.
Why? Seems selfish not to allow worthy women the opportunity to be mothers in Zion.

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

Fiannan wrote:
As for myself, I will never practice this, even if the church decided to reinstate it(It won't), even if the church reinstated it and claimed as Brigham Young did, that it's required to enter the Celestial Kingdom, I would not do such a thing, I would not believe it.
Why? Seems selfish not to allow worthy women the opportunity to be mothers in Zion.
Because I believe the Book of Mormon when it says it's an abomination /shrug

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shadow
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by shadow »

Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
As for myself, I will never practice this, even if the church decided to reinstate it(It won't), even if the church reinstated it and claimed as Brigham Young did, that it's required to enter the Celestial Kingdom, I would not do such a thing, I would not believe it.
Why? Seems selfish not to allow worthy women the opportunity to be mothers in Zion.
Because I believe the Book of Mormon when it says it's an abomination /shrug
This has been an interesting last few posts. First you establish that God does indeed allow polygamy using David etc. as examples. Then you question section 132 as possibly being false, and if it's false you reject polygamy altogether. Then you share your interpretation of Jacob in the BOM as definitive that it's always an abomination.

If people ever accuse you of being confused, just agree with them :))

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

shadow wrote:
Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
As for myself, I will never practice this, even if the church decided to reinstate it(It won't), even if the church reinstated it and claimed as Brigham Young did, that it's required to enter the Celestial Kingdom, I would not do such a thing, I would not believe it.
Why? Seems selfish not to allow worthy women the opportunity to be mothers in Zion.
Because I believe the Book of Mormon when it says it's an abomination /shrug
This has been an interesting last few posts. First you establish that God does indeed allow polygamy using David etc. as examples. Then you question section 132 as possibly being false, and if it's false you reject polygamy altogether. Then you share your interpretation of Jacob in the BOM as definitive that it's always an abomination.

If people ever accuse you of being confused, just agree with them :))
i said that it's clear that God has allowed it with a FEW men throughout history. As in like, at least 6 men in the last 6000 years, and that apparently, God is okay with it in very rare circumstances.

With those RARE CIRCUMSTANCES, it's clear that God gave them more wives, and they did not sin in having more wives EXCEPT if they took a wife that wasn't GIVEN to them. (Like David did, and Brigham Young)

That same God called Polygamy an abomination. So therefore, it must be an abomination with very few exceptions. When it comes to those exceptions, logically it will work the way it did 4000 years ago, when God told a specific man which specific woman he could marry.

It's not that confusing or contradictory if you open your mind and let go of your /traditions/opinion and quit thinking you already know everything for like 2 seconds :)

So, If the church brings back polygamy, I will reject it, because it will bring back the form that Brigham Young taught, and the form that he taught is the type that God called an abomination in the Book of Mormon.

What I've said is clear as day.

Stacy Oliver
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Stahura wrote: i said that it's clear that God has allowed it with a FEW men throughout history. As in like, at least 6 men in the last 6000 years, and that apparently, God is okay with it in very rare circumstances.

With those RARE CIRCUMSTANCES, it's clear that God gave them more wives, and they did not sin in having more wives EXCEPT if they took a wife that wasn't GIVEN to them. (Like David did, and Brigham Young)

That same God called Polygamy an abomination. So therefore, it must be an abomination with very few exceptions. When it comes to those exceptions, logically it will work the way it did 4000 years ago, when God told a specific man which specific woman he could marry.

It's not that confusing or contradictory if you open your mind and let go of your /traditions/opinion and quit thinking you already know everything for like 2 seconds :)

So, If the church brings back polygamy, I will reject it, because it will bring back the form that Brigham Young taught, and the form that he taught is the type that God called an abomination in the Book of Mormon.

What I've said is clear as day.
When you read the Genesis account of Jacob does it look like he was given his wives in the sense that you mean, or is it more similar to Brigham's practice?

Stacy Oliver
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Melissa wrote:
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.
God commanded that the Israelites commit genocide. Should I conclude that God didn't love those people?

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

shadow wrote:
Melissa wrote:
Stahura wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Really? In David's case did God tell him to marry all 200 of them? How about the hundreds of concubines?

And Solomon had many, many more than that.
I already addressed that.

They were justified in the ones God commanded them to take. All others that they took for themselves(which they did) was not of God, and therefore sinned in doing so.

God didn't give them permission for all of the women they had. The ones they did have by his permission, was counted as righteousness.
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.
So a wife is a sex slave to the husband? I'll have to let my wife know. On second thought, I'd be referring to her as my ex wife if I explained it to her. I'll just keep it hush hush.
Way to go with miss understanding and trying to mock me. I said wives AND sex slaves (concubines) I didn't say wives as sex slaves.

Seriously....don't be dumb.

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Melissa wrote:
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.
God commanded that the Israelites commit genocide. Should I conclude that God didn't love those people?
Maybe....

I do struggle with the amount of torture humans have gone through from time to time and also the incredible degree of innocent deaths. BUT, not comparable to the world's take on women throughout time and endorsed by the bible and Koran etc.

Stacy Oliver
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Posts: 1892

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Melissa wrote:
Maybe....

I do struggle with the amount of torture humans have gone through from time to time and also the incredible degree of innocent deaths. BUT, not comparable to the world's take on women throughout time and endorsed by the bible and Koran etc.
Wait... You're saying that polygamy is worse than genocide?

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shadow
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by shadow »

Stahura wrote:
i said that it's clear that God has allowed it...

What I've said is clear as day.
So polygamy is sound in principle, now we just have to determine when it's sound in principle. And I agree, it's when God commands it. That seems clear.
Now we can haggle over how God can command. Any examples of how God commands things in the scriptures?? We can revisit Moses and the 10 commandments. God gave the Israelites the 10 commandments, but He didn't do it directly, he did it through His Prophet. I guess that's one example of how God commands. Any others? Is there a chain of command so to speak? I recall learning about it in the Temple. The Father commands His Son who in turn command His Servants, the Prophets, who then give the command to the intended recipient(s). That seems like a valid, well established pattern. In fact, Christ stated that whether it's from Him or His servants, it's the same.
Any confusion thus far?

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

shadow wrote:
Stahura wrote:
i said that it's clear that God has allowed it...

What I've said is clear as day.
So polygamy is sound in principle, now we just have to determine when it's sound in principle. And I agree, it's when God commands it. That seems clear.
Now we can haggle over how God can command. Any examples of how God commands things in the scriptures?? We can revisit Moses and the 10 commandments. God gave the Israelites the 10 commandments, but He didn't do it directly, he did it through His Prophet. I guess that's one example of how God commands. Any others? Is there a chain of command so to speak? I recall learning about it in the Temple. The Father commands His Son who in turn command His Servants, the Prophets, who then give the command to the intended recipient(s). That seems like a valid, well established pattern. In fact, Christ stated that whether it's from Him or His servants, it's the same.
Any confusion thus far?
A little bit of confusion at the end. It seems that you took the temple film and changed who the Servants were.

The Father commanded his Son who commanded his Servants, who were angelic beings,who then delivered it to Adam(Each one of us, we are to assume that we are Adam)

If Brigham Young learned about his form of polygamy from Joseph Smith, then wouldn't you think that there would be record of Joseph Smith(In your eyes, The Servant/Prophets) being told of God which woman Brigham could have, and in turn, Joseph would have told Brigham in the same way God gave David wives through Nathan? Then in Brigham's days, would there be record of God telling Brigham which specific woman other men could have, and Brigham giving each specific wife to men like Heber C Kimball? Basically Brigham taking Nathan's role?
Or wouldn't there be journal entries of these men of when God told them of each woman they could have? Shouldnt' there be SOMETHING?

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Melissa
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Melissa »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Melissa wrote:
Maybe....

I do struggle with the amount of torture humans have gone through from time to time and also the incredible degree of innocent deaths. BUT, not comparable to the world's take on women throughout time and endorsed by the bible and Koran etc.
Wait... You're saying that polygamy is worse than genocide?
I'm saying it's not comparable.

And polygamy is only one shallow view of what I am talking about. I don't expect you to understand.

Stacy Oliver
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Posts: 1892

Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Melissa wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:
Melissa wrote:
Maybe....

I do struggle with the amount of torture humans have gone through from time to time and also the incredible degree of innocent deaths. BUT, not comparable to the world's take on women throughout time and endorsed by the bible and Koran etc.
Wait... You're saying that polygamy is worse than genocide?
I'm saying it's not comparable.

And polygamy is only one shallow view of what I am talking about. I don't expect you to understand.
You're right that I don't understand. I think that they can easily be compared: genocide is infinitely worse. And if God commanded that, how can we say that he wouldn't/won't command polygamy because it's bad?

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shadow
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by shadow »

Stahura wrote:Shouldn't' there be SOMETHING?
I see no reason for it.

Zathura
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Re: Polygamy - how do I feel good about this???

Post by Zathura »

Melissa wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:
Melissa wrote:
No wonder guys think women are free game.....it is righteous to have tons of wives and sex slaves??

If that is actually true, then I conclude that God doesn't love women.
God commanded that the Israelites commit genocide. Should I conclude that God didn't love those people?
Maybe....

I do struggle with the amount of torture humans have gone through from time to time and also the incredible degree of innocent deaths. BUT, not comparable to the world's take on women throughout time and endorsed by the bible and Koran etc.
Melissa, There is a way to argue that D&C 132 isn't legit, but how do you explain the Old Testament evidence of polygamy being approved of God?

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