Questioning my Garments

A place for conservative women to discuss true women's liberation, the role of women in healing America, the truth about feminism and more...
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Jake
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Jake »

Obrien wrote:^^^ one of the top 5 posts of 2014.
Except this is 2015.

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Obrien
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Obrien »

yes, it is. I was reminiscing about great 2014 posts. another great one is Ajax new twist on the song hold to the rod. The BEST item on LDSFF last year was a pm I got about a child and a glass of water, but that's sacred.

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John Tavner
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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ithink wrote: June 17th, 2014, 9:36 am
ajax wrote:Hyrcanus / ithink,

Can you post some quotes from the sources you mentioned?
I already gave a couple, but if you refer to Marks, then you are looking for this:

William Marks, Nauvoo Stake President from 1839 to Joseph's martyrdom, stated the following:
“About the first of June, 1844 (situated as I was at that time, being the Presiding Elder of the Stake at Nauvoo, and by appointment the Presiding Officer of the High Council), I had a very good opportunity to know the affairs of the Church, and my convictions at that time were, that the Church in a great measure had departed from the pure principles and doctrines of Jesus Christ. I felt much troubled in mind about the condition of the Church. I prayed earnestly to my Heavenly Father to show me something in regard to it, when I was wrapt in vision, and it was shown me by the Spirit, that the top or branches had overcome the root, in sin and wickedness, and the only way to cleanse and purify it was, to disorganize it, and in due time, the Lord would reorganize it again. There were many things suggested to my mind, but the lapse of time has erased them from my memory. A few days after this occurrence I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the church, and we retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it eventually would prove the overthrow of the church, and we should soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in transgression, and I must sever them from the church, unless they made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. After the Prophet’s death, I made mention of this conversation to several, hoping and believing that it would have a good effect; but to my great disappointment, it was soon rumoured about that Brother ­Marks was about to apostatize, and that all that he said about the conversation with the Prophet was a tissue of lies.”William Marks, Nauvoo Stake Pres., True Latter Days Saints Herald, Oct. 23,1859, 25-26

“During my administration in the Church [at Nauvoo] I saw and heard of many things that were practiced and taught that I did not believe to be of God…. Therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the Church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it; which stand rendered me quite unpopular with many of the leading ones of the church. I was also witness of the introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house of Israel forever…. Joseph, however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, ‘Brother Marks, I have something to communicate to you.’ We retired to a by place, and sat down together, when he said: ‘We are a ruined people.’ I asked how so? He said: ‘This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us, will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived,' said he, 'in reference to its practice; it is wrong; it is a curse to mankind, and we shall have to leave the United States soon, unless it can be put down, and its practice stopped in the Church.’ ” William Marks, Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, Vol. 3:52-53, July 1853
You know I was thinking that IF Mark's quote is true, it may have meant that Joseph was deceived by some of his closest associates. Marks was correct it was in reference to it's practice, but I truly believe he meant by some of his closest associates he was deceived.Though, to be fair, I don't believe an Angel of Light appeared unto him to command him to practice polygamy. If anything it was an angel of darkness. Furthermore, Like Moses stated "where is thy glory that I should worship thee" (paraprhased). Once one has seen a true angel of light, or the Father and the Son, I have no doubt it is fairly simple to distinguish between the Glory of God and the glory of Satan. Anyways, just a few thoughts if you are still around.

Vomega
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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I am going to suggest something different than everyone else here. I think it is perfectly OK to take a break from church and your worship routine We know it is healthy to have balance in life and also to take personal time for yourself. That can include taking a break from religion. The church will be there when you come back. See this as an opportunity to reflect and learn more about yourself. I took a month break and it helped clear my mind and see things from a new perspective and in a much clearer light. Good luck!

davedan
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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In the Old Testament (OT), there were 12 tribes. Of all the 12 tribes, only 1 tribe (Levi) was assigned to serve in the temple. Now all the tribes benefited from the temple blessings, but only the tribe of Levi officiated in the temple. As part of their divine assignment to serve in the temple, they were to 1. marry among their own people, 2. not drink wine or strong drink 3. wear the temple garments. (Levites were prohibited from drinking wine)

Jesus was not a Levite but was from the tribe of Judah and both created and drank wine in moderation. But for Levites, God called them to a higher order of strictness. It seemed the strictness (holiness) was to call attention to the importance of the temple. But while the other 11 tribes could drink wine and weren't expected to wear the garment, all the tribes benefited from the service of the Levites in the temple on their behalf.

Today, we don't have tribes, but Christian denominations. Only 1 denomination has been assigned to serve in the temple, and as part of that temple service, LDS are expected to live a higher level of strictness like the Levites in the OT. Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin, but abstaining from wine, and being modest in our dress does more to advertise to our other Christian brothers and sisters the eternal importance of the House of the Lord.

Serving in the temple does not make LDS better than other Christians. But because we have been given the temple, LDS are obligated to observe the rules of temple holiness that pertain to the House of the Lord as one an Ambassador of Heaven. The temple being an embassy of the Celestial Kingdom on Earth. And the labors we perform in the temple do not just benefit us, but will benefit the whole House of Israel and whole human family.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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davedan wrote: February 19th, 2021, 4:41 am In the Old Testament (OT), there were 12 tribes. Of all the 12 tribes, only 1 tribe (Levi) was assigned to serve in the temple. Now all the tribes benefited from the temple blessings, but only the tribe of Levi officiated in the temple. As part of their divine assignment to serve in the temple, they were to 1. marry among their own people, 2. not drink wine or strong drink 3. wear the temple garments. (Levites were prohibited from drinking wine)

Jesus was not a Levite but was from the tribe of Judah and both created and drank wine in moderation. But for Levites, God called them to a higher order of strictness. It seemed the strictness (holiness) was to call attention to the importance of the temple. But while the other 11 tribes could drink wine and weren't expected to wear the garment, all the tribes benefited from the service of the Levites in the temple on their behalf.

Today, we don't have tribes, but Christian denominations. Only 1 denomination has been assigned to serve in the temple, and as part of that temple service, LDS are expected to live a higher level of strictness like the Levites in the OT. Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin, but abstaining from wine, and being modest in our dress does more to advertise to our other Christian brothers and sisters the eternal importance of the House of the Lord.

Serving in the temple does not make LDS better than other Christians. But because we have been given the temple, LDS are obligated to observe the rules of temple holiness that pertain to the House of the Lord as one an Ambassador of Heaven. The temple being an embassy of the Celestial Kingdom on Earth. And the labors we perform in the temple do not just benefit us, but will benefit the whole House of Israel and whole human family.
This is the only post I've read so far in the thread but what a great analogy.
It could be viewed that we have a great GREAT responsibility that comes from proclaiming this blessing...
Awesome perspective mate😇

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Robin Hood
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Robin Hood »

davedan wrote: February 19th, 2021, 4:41 am In the Old Testament (OT), there were 12 tribes. Of all the 12 tribes, only 1 tribe (Levi) was assigned to serve in the temple. Now all the tribes benefited from the temple blessings, but only the tribe of Levi officiated in the temple. As part of their divine assignment to serve in the temple, they were to 1. marry among their own people, 2. not drink wine or strong drink 3. wear the temple garments. (Levites were prohibited from drinking wine)

Jesus was not a Levite but was from the tribe of Judah and both created and drank wine in moderation. But for Levites, God called them to a higher order of strictness. It seemed the strictness (holiness) was to call attention to the importance of the temple. But while the other 11 tribes could drink wine and weren't expected to wear the garment, all the tribes benefited from the service of the Levites in the temple on their behalf.

Today, we don't have tribes, but Christian denominations. Only 1 denomination has been assigned to serve in the temple, and as part of that temple service, LDS are expected to live a higher level of strictness like the Levites in the OT. Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin, but abstaining from wine, and being modest in our dress does more to advertise to our other Christian brothers and sisters the eternal importance of the House of the Lord.

Serving in the temple does not make LDS better than other Christians. But because we have been given the temple, LDS are obligated to observe the rules of temple holiness that pertain to the House of the Lord as one an Ambassador of Heaven. The temple being an embassy of the Celestial Kingdom on Earth. And the labors we perform in the temple do not just benefit us, but will benefit the whole House of Israel and whole human family.
This is excellent.
Thank you.

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zionssuburb
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by zionssuburb »

Sister_Sarah wrote: January 2nd, 2015, 5:09 pm What does the Bible say about wearing garments? When I think of Christ, my first thought is of Romans 3:9-11, "...There is no righteous person, not even one." When we get to Heaven, Christ won't be worried about men's rules about wearing garments. He is only concerned about our hearts.

(((hugs))) :)
Jesus had those who failed to dress correctly for the wedding feast thrown out, that's what I remember being said in the Bible.

DesertWonderer2
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by DesertWonderer2 »

davedan wrote: February 19th, 2021, 4:41 am In the Old Testament (OT), there were 12 tribes. Of all the 12 tribes, only 1 tribe (Levi) was assigned to serve in the temple. Now all the tribes benefited from the temple blessings, but only the tribe of Levi officiated in the temple. As part of their divine assignment to serve in the temple, they were to 1. marry among their own people, 2. not drink wine or strong drink 3. wear the temple garments. (Levites were prohibited from drinking wine)

Jesus was not a Levite but was from the tribe of Judah and both created and drank wine in moderation. But for Levites, God called them to a higher order of strictness. It seemed the strictness (holiness) was to call attention to the importance of the temple. But while the other 11 tribes could drink wine and weren't expected to wear the garment, all the tribes benefited from the service of the Levites in the temple on their behalf.

Today, we don't have tribes, but Christian denominations. Only 1 denomination has been assigned to serve in the temple, and as part of that temple service, LDS are expected to live a higher level of strictness like the Levites in the OT. Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin, but abstaining from wine, and being modest in our dress does more to advertise to our other Christian brothers and sisters the eternal importance of the House of the Lord.

Serving in the temple does not make LDS better than other Christians. But because we have been given the temple, LDS are obligated to observe the rules of temple holiness that pertain to the House of the Lord as one an Ambassador of Heaven. The temple being an embassy of the Celestial Kingdom on Earth. And the labors we perform in the temple do not just benefit us, but will benefit the whole House of Israel and whole human family.
Thenext opportunity I have, I will quote this in a talk / 5 th Sunday lesson, etc...

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nightlight
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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davedan wrote: February 19th, 2021, 4:41 am In the Old Testament (OT), there were 12 tribes. Of all the 12 tribes, only 1 tribe (Levi) was assigned to serve in the temple. Now all the tribes benefited from the temple blessings, but only the tribe of Levi officiated in the temple. As part of their divine assignment to serve in the temple, they were to 1. marry among their own people, 2. not drink wine or strong drink 3. wear the temple garments. (Levites were prohibited from drinking wine)

Jesus was not a Levite but was from the tribe of Judah and both created and drank wine in moderation. But for Levites, God called them to a higher order of strictness. It seemed the strictness (holiness) was to call attention to the importance of the temple. But while the other 11 tribes could drink wine and weren't expected to wear the garment, all the tribes benefited from the service of the Levites in the temple on their behalf.

Today, we don't have tribes, but Christian denominations. Only 1 denomination has been assigned to serve in the temple, and as part of that temple service, LDS are expected to live a higher level of strictness like the Levites in the OT. Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin, but abstaining from wine, and being modest in our dress does more to advertise to our other Christian brothers and sisters the eternal importance of the House of the Lord.

Serving in the temple does not make LDS better than other Christians. But because we have been given the temple, LDS are obligated to observe the rules of temple holiness that pertain to the House of the Lord as one an Ambassador of Heaven. The temple being an embassy of the Celestial Kingdom on Earth. And the labors we perform in the temple do not just benefit us, but will benefit the whole House of Israel and whole human family.
You live a higher order of strictness/holiness than Jesus?

Edit: who said we don't have tribes today?
Last edited by nightlight on February 19th, 2021, 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

4Joshua8
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by 4Joshua8 »

davedan wrote: February 19th, 2021, 4:41 am In the Old Testament (OT), there were 12 tribes. Of all the 12 tribes, only 1 tribe (Levi) was assigned to serve in the temple. Now all the tribes benefited from the temple blessings, but only the tribe of Levi officiated in the temple. As part of their divine assignment to serve in the temple, they were to 1. marry among their own people, 2. not drink wine or strong drink 3. wear the temple garments. (Levites were prohibited from drinking wine)

Jesus was not a Levite but was from the tribe of Judah and both created and drank wine in moderation. But for Levites, God called them to a higher order of strictness. It seemed the strictness (holiness) was to call attention to the importance of the temple. But while the other 11 tribes could drink wine and weren't expected to wear the garment, all the tribes benefited from the service of the Levites in the temple on their behalf.

Today, we don't have tribes, but Christian denominations. Only 1 denomination has been assigned to serve in the temple, and as part of that temple service, LDS are expected to live a higher level of strictness like the Levites in the OT. Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin (amen), but abstaining from wine, and being modest in our dress does more to advertise to our other Christian brothers and sisters the eternal importance of the House of the Lord. (note that being immodest in our dress is a sin, not just inconvenient to our examples)

Serving in the temple does not make LDS better than other Christians. But because we have been given the temple, LDS are obligated to observe the rules of temple holiness that pertain to the House of the Lord as one an Ambassador of Heaven. The temple being an embassy of the Celestial Kingdom on Earth. And the labors we perform in the temple do not just benefit us, but will benefit the whole House of Israel and whole human family.
There's a reason for the "do not drink wine or strong drink," and it has less to do with wine and more to do with drunkenness, which is why God said we (people he knew would have temples) can drink wine of our own make and mild drinks, including commanding us to partake of the bread and wine in remembrance of the Lord.

Commanding Levites to abstain isn't about wine itself making one unholy, it's about drunkenness and its unholy effects and behaviors.

We can make our own wine and drink new wine with low alcohol content, using moderation (as you said above) and contentment principles. If fermentation goes on too long before consuming the wine, we can apply it to sacraments where less is consumed (avoiding drunkenness) or repurpose it.

Wine will again be used by us in coming times.

The greater context of God's words pertaining to wine/alcohol leaves me with little doubt that the point isn't the wine, it's the absence of moderation and contentment in using it, which leads to drunkenness, causing hard-to-heal damage to the body, and unholy behavior, which makes us unholy.

Strong drink (liquor) is wrong because its design is drunkenness. That's why it exists. It's extremely difficult to use moderation with liquor. It's just made to get you drunk.

Also, we still have tribes. And that will become more clear than ever in coming times. We're astray, which is why we don't realize it. We're supposed to be gathering to our tribes, but we don't understand how to gather or whom we're supposed to gather and to where. We think we're gathering Israel, but we're just gathering Gentiles to what we believe are the covenants pertaining to Israel. The tribes will come into view soon enough.

And with the modesty thing, unfortunately our temple garments have almost nothing to do with that anymore, as you can dress very immodestly even without revealing the garment because of current immodest garment styles. They're just Babylon underwear with fancy markings now. I'm not saying those marks and our commitments toward the garments are unimportant, but our constant capitulation to Babylon has all but removed any hint of modesty about the garment. I know that Celestial beings feel our garments don't help us much with modesty in dress anymore. So must early saints who lived in times where modesty still mattered to people.

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nightlight
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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nightlight
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Re: Questioning my Garments

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I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________

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Luke
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Luke »

nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:08 am I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________
So Joseph Smith was wrong then?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Robin Hood »

nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:08 am I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________
This would be a valid argument if we hadn't sent out over a million missionaries.

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nightlight
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by nightlight »

[*]
Robin Hood wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:21 am
nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:08 am I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________
This would be a valid argument if we hadn't sent out over a million missionaries.
Teaching what? That the only way into high heaven is through them and a building.
Hence mormondom.

This doctrine has led Mormons to the doctrine of sinful thoughts being not a sin...."you can be homosexual... just don't touch each other, as long as you do xyz... you're good."
The born again and changed man is not the Mormons endgame.
It's "be who you are , but follow our authority.. go to the places that we build with our hands to get to the high heaven "

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ransomme
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by ransomme »

nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 12:18 pm [*]
Robin Hood wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:21 am
nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:08 am I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________
This would be a valid argument if we hadn't sent out over a million missionaries.
Teaching what? That the only way into high heaven is through them and a building.
Hence mormondom.

This doctrine has led Mormons to the doctrine of sinful thoughts being not a sin...."you can be homosexual... just don't touch each other, as long as you do xyz... you're good."
The born again and changed man is not the Mormons endgame.
It's "be who you are , but follow our authority.. go to the places that we build with our hands to get to the high heaven "
Well, actually the endgame is just that, to be born again. Foe example: "25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;" Mosiah 27:25
and
"14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness." Alma 7:14

In spite of that just like in all eras and peoples of God the precepts of men do creep into their worship, observances. Here Nephi spoke of it when talking about the last days, "2 Nephi 28
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men."
This is not limited to, nor does it exclude the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, but of the world there are but few humble followers of Christ, and even they do err because of the precepts of men.

Why do you condemn the whole of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS? Also, I would say that you are incorrectly applying those verses about the temple missing the point. After all God told David and Solomon that Solomon should build the temple. Did God not know what he was talking about or doing? Besides God approved of the temple, see 2 Chronicles 7:1–3. Same when he told Moses to build the Tabernacle? And so on...

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nightlight
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by nightlight »

ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:39 am
nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 12:18 pm [*]
Robin Hood wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:21 am
nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:08 am I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________
This would be a valid argument if we hadn't sent out over a million missionaries.
Teaching what? That the only way into high heaven is through them and a building.
Hence mormondom.

This doctrine has led Mormons to the doctrine of sinful thoughts being not a sin...."you can be homosexual... just don't touch each other, as long as you do xyz... you're good."
The born again and changed man is not the Mormons endgame.
It's "be who you are , but follow our authority.. go to the places that we build with our hands to get to the high heaven "
Well, actually the endgame is just that, to be born again. Foe example: "25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;" Mosiah 27:25
and
"14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness." Alma 7:14

In spite of that just like in all eras and peoples of God the precepts of men do creep into their worship, observances. Here Nephi spoke of it when talking about the last days, "2 Nephi 28
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men."
This is not limited to, nor does it exclude the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, but of the world there are but few humble followers of Christ, and even they do err because of the precepts of men.

Why do you condemn the whole of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS? Also, I would say that you are incorrectly applying those verses about the temple missing the point. After all God told David and Solomon that Solomon should build the temple. Did God not know what he was talking about or doing? Besides God approved of the temple, see 2 Chronicles 7:1–3. Same when he told Moses to build the Tabernacle? And so on...
What the BoM says and what the church says are often different.

Look at general conference. How often do we here about the xyz steps? How often do we here about being born again, the event of the baptism of Fire?

How can a people move forward without seeing ourselves? Why can I vote with my right hand to oppose? Joseph Smith didn't set up a church of folks who cannot voice their concerns. I'll try to be more charitible in my critique(I understand that I need this courtesy too) ....but Im not going to not communicate my thoughts. I am open to critique... I honestly try my best to listen and change, it's hard to see yourself.
Any group of mortals who won't allow critique............. are on the path to failure

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ransomme
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by ransomme »

nightlight wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 11:41 am

How can a people move forward without seeing ourselves? Why can I vote with my right hand to oppose? Joseph Smith didn't set up a church of folks who cannot voice their concerns. I'll try to be more charitible in my critique(I understand that I need this courtesy too) ....but Im not going to not communicate my thoughts. I am open to critique... I honestly try my best to listen and change, it's hard to see yourself.
Any group of mortals who won't allow critique............. are on the path to failure
Well, I think that is largely a milk vs meat debate The Church kind of tends to teach to the lowest common denominator and advances past that require someone with ears to hear and eyes to see. The meat is kind of meant to come via inspiration to those who seek, knock and ask. God's word is layered for that reason, so the same words can be milk to one with embedded meat for another. We are told to search the scriptures and to hear Him. By doing those two things we can gain an understanding of purification, justification, sanctification, being born again, and so on.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by FoundMyEden »

Robin Hood wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:21 am
nightlight wrote: February 19th, 2021, 11:08 am I hear Mormons going on and on about the saving they do in the temple and how they bless the world in their buildings....yet the outside world sits in Darkness. The living are lost and yet we turn our eye to buildings and the dead. Alam went out into the world , Jesus went out into the world.... Mormons work in buildings.

47But Solomon built him an house. 48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
__________
This would be a valid argument if we hadn't sent out over a million missionaries.
I don't feel at this point in the game the missionaries are out doing the work that would bring peoples hearts closer to God. They can barely even interact with anyone. I believe it's more about keeping the youth in the church by devotion and works dedicated to the church. The foundational principles of hard work and focus are wonderful to raise our youth in but the actual act of turning peoples hearts toward Christ through the spirit is rarely seen, imo. In fact I think more people feel sorry for the brothers and sisters out there who are looking for service work to do but are so limited in where they can help because of all the regulations and lock downs from the church and government at this time.

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John Tavner
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by John Tavner »

ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:07 pm
nightlight wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 11:41 am

How can a people move forward without seeing ourselves? Why can I vote with my right hand to oppose? Joseph Smith didn't set up a church of folks who cannot voice their concerns. I'll try to be more charitible in my critique(I understand that I need this courtesy too) ....but Im not going to not communicate my thoughts. I am open to critique... I honestly try my best to listen and change, it's hard to see yourself.
Any group of mortals who won't allow critique............. are on the path to failure
Well, I think that is largely a milk vs meat debate The Church kind of tends to teach to the lowest common denominator and advances past that require someone with ears to hear and eyes to see. The meat is kind of meant to come via inspiration to those who seek, knock and ask. God's word is layered for that reason, so the same words can be milk to one with embedded meat for another. We are told to search the scriptures and to hear Him. By doing those two things we can gain an understanding of purification, justification, sanctification, being born again, and so on.
Being born again IS the lowest common denominator. If we are not born again, we aren't called Christ's. We use that excuse a lot (not talk about you in particular, but in general) and that excuse has turned us into just not teaching the gospel. It turns into philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Either we gather or we scatter - we need to start gathering.

As an aside, I find it interesting that we as a church are very focused on the old testament... almost as if the new testament never occurred. As Paul said We have almost become a modern day Judah. Sadducees at the top and pharisees at the bottom. I find it interesting how history often repeats itself.

Regarding temples : Acts 7: 47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him. 48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be? 50Has not My hand made all these things?’ 51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. There is no doubt a house of learning was established... but it was not meant to be a temple in the way we view it now. It was a place of gathering and learning and discovering the divine. We've turned it into an edifice that we think is holy and think we can only receive the most revelation there... when we are the temple 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Standing in Holy Places is emphatically not the Place built by hands, it is us, dedicating our lives to God learning bit by bit from the Lord becoming more and more sanctified. The temple is merely symbolic to show us how we are to grow ourselves. Nothing inside a temple has any efficacy without hte Holy Spirit of Promise and most of it is literally just vain repetition of prayers. There is good from the modern day temples, like ther eis good in all things, but Temples have become a modern day idol, one of many that we worship all in the name of God, not understanding that we are doing as stated in Isaiah 1:13: Bring your worthless offerings no more; your incense is detestable to Me—your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations. I cannot endure iniquity in a solemn assembly. 14I hate your New Moons and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. 15When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! 17Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.” 18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.

We need to turn back to our Lord and Savior and make HIm our Lord and Savior rather than just saying He is our Lord and Savior. Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by Cruiserdude »

John Tavner wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:02 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:07 pm
nightlight wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 11:41 am

How can a people move forward without seeing ourselves? Why can I vote with my right hand to oppose? Joseph Smith didn't set up a church of folks who cannot voice their concerns. I'll try to be more charitible in my critique(I understand that I need this courtesy too) ....but Im not going to not communicate my thoughts. I am open to critique... I honestly try my best to listen and change, it's hard to see yourself.
Any group of mortals who won't allow critique............. are on the path to failure
Well, I think that is largely a milk vs meat debate The Church kind of tends to teach to the lowest common denominator and advances past that require someone with ears to hear and eyes to see. The meat is kind of meant to come via inspiration to those who seek, knock and ask. God's word is layered for that reason, so the same words can be milk to one with embedded meat for another. We are told to search the scriptures and to hear Him. By doing those two things we can gain an understanding of purification, justification, sanctification, being born again, and so on.
Being born again IS the lowest common denominator. If we are not born again, we aren't called Christ's. We use that excuse a lot (not talk about you in particular, but in general) and that excuse has turned us into just not teaching the gospel. It turns into philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Either we gather or we scatter - we need to start gathering.

As an aside, I find it interesting that we as a church are very focused on the old testament... almost as if the new testament never occurred. As Paul said We have almost become a modern day Judah. Sadducees at the top and pharisees at the bottom. I find it interesting how history often repeats itself.

Regarding temples : Acts 7: 47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him. 48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be? 50Has not My hand made all these things?’ 51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. There is no doubt a house of learning was established... but it was not meant to be a temple in the way we view it now. It was a place of gathering and learning and discovering the divine. We've turned it into an edifice that we think is holy and think we can only receive the most revelation there... when we are the temple 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Standing in Holy Places is emphatically not the Place built by hands, it is us, dedicating our lives to God learning bit by bit from the Lord becoming more and more sanctified. The temple is merely symbolic to show us how we are to grow ourselves. Nothing inside a temple has any efficacy without hte Holy Spirit of Promise and most of it is literally just vain repetition of prayers. There is good from the modern day temples, like ther eis good in all things, but Temples have become a modern day idol, one of many that we worship all in the name of God, not understanding that we are doing as stated in Isaiah 1:13: Bring your worthless offerings no more; your incense is detestable to Me—your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations. I cannot endure iniquity in a solemn assembly. 14I hate your New Moons and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. 15When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! 17Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.” 18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.

We need to turn back to our Lord and Savior and make HIm our Lord and Savior rather than just saying He is our Lord and Savior. Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter.
Yeah I really agree too

Side note, your post reminded me something I noticed yesterday while reading that I thought was kinda cool. How in the Old Testament times one would GO TO the temple and offer EXTERNAL animal sacrifice. Then after Christ has completed his mission and fulfilled the law, or in New Testament times(to current), one IS the temple/kingdom of God and the sacrifice our Lord requires of us is INTERNAL: a broken heart and contrite mind.
Not some big doctrinal thing really, but I just thought it was cool and beautiful .... and yeah your post reminded me of that thought 😇😁

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ransomme
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by ransomme »

John Tavner wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:02 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:07 pm
nightlight wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 11:41 am

How can a people move forward without seeing ourselves? Why can I vote with my right hand to oppose? Joseph Smith didn't set up a church of folks who cannot voice their concerns. I'll try to be more charitible in my critique(I understand that I need this courtesy too) ....but Im not going to not communicate my thoughts. I am open to critique... I honestly try my best to listen and change, it's hard to see yourself.
Any group of mortals who won't allow critique............. are on the path to failure
Well, I think that is largely a milk vs meat debate The Church kind of tends to teach to the lowest common denominator and advances past that require someone with ears to hear and eyes to see. The meat is kind of meant to come via inspiration to those who seek, knock and ask. God's word is layered for that reason, so the same words can be milk to one with embedded meat for another. We are told to search the scriptures and to hear Him. By doing those two things we can gain an understanding of purification, justification, sanctification, being born again, and so on.
Being born again IS the lowest common denominator. If we are not born again, we aren't called Christ's. We use that excuse a lot (not talk about you in particular, but in general) and that excuse has turned us into just not teaching the gospel. It turns into philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Either we gather or we scatter - we need to start gathering.

As an aside, I find it interesting that we as a church are very focused on the old testament... almost as if the new testament never occurred. As Paul said We have almost become a modern day Judah. Sadducees at the top and pharisees at the bottom. I find it interesting how history often repeats itself.

Regarding temples : Acts 7: 47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him. 48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be? 50Has not My hand made all these things?’ 51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. There is no doubt a house of learning was established... but it was not meant to be a temple in the way we view it now. It was a place of gathering and learning and discovering the divine. We've turned it into an edifice that we think is holy and think we can only receive the most revelation there... when we are the temple 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Standing in Holy Places is emphatically not the Place built by hands, it is us, dedicating our lives to God learning bit by bit from the Lord becoming more and more sanctified. The temple is merely symbolic to show us how we are to grow ourselves. Nothing inside a temple has any efficacy without hte Holy Spirit of Promise and most of it is literally just vain repetition of prayers. There is good from the modern day temples, like ther eis good in all things, but Temples have become a modern day idol, one of many that we worship all in the name of God, not understanding that we are doing as stated in Isaiah 1:13: Bring your worthless offerings no more; your incense is detestable to Me—your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations. I cannot endure iniquity in a solemn assembly. 14I hate your New Moons and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. 15When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! 17Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.” 18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.

We need to turn back to our Lord and Savior and make HIm our Lord and Savior rather than just saying He is our Lord and Savior. Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter.
OK sure we may include being born again as a low common denominator. And in reality I here that term mentioned fairly often. But they also often use other terms trying to make the same point such as offering a broken heart and contrite spirit. Even so we can agree that we can do much better in this area. After all I think that the Fulness of the Gospel is the milk that should be taught as the LCD, and the Lord put it concisely this way, "And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (D&C 39:5-6.)

I have taught many lessons and delivered a few talks on standing in holy places and temples are just one place amongst a list including anywhere where a faithful follower of Christ stands. I never got any of the inpressions about the temple that you are suggesting, as if it is a precept of men. or a form of idolatry. Perhaps you should look again at the temple endowment and see what it is really teaching, because it's not really about the creation story.

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John Tavner
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by John Tavner »

ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:46 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:02 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:07 pm
nightlight wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 11:41 am

How can a people move forward without seeing ourselves? Why can I vote with my right hand to oppose? Joseph Smith didn't set up a church of folks who cannot voice their concerns. I'll try to be more charitible in my critique(I understand that I need this courtesy too) ....but Im not going to not communicate my thoughts. I am open to critique... I honestly try my best to listen and change, it's hard to see yourself.
Any group of mortals who won't allow critique............. are on the path to failure
Well, I think that is largely a milk vs meat debate The Church kind of tends to teach to the lowest common denominator and advances past that require someone with ears to hear and eyes to see. The meat is kind of meant to come via inspiration to those who seek, knock and ask. God's word is layered for that reason, so the same words can be milk to one with embedded meat for another. We are told to search the scriptures and to hear Him. By doing those two things we can gain an understanding of purification, justification, sanctification, being born again, and so on.
Being born again IS the lowest common denominator. If we are not born again, we aren't called Christ's. We use that excuse a lot (not talk about you in particular, but in general) and that excuse has turned us into just not teaching the gospel. It turns into philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Either we gather or we scatter - we need to start gathering.

As an aside, I find it interesting that we as a church are very focused on the old testament... almost as if the new testament never occurred. As Paul said We have almost become a modern day Judah. Sadducees at the top and pharisees at the bottom. I find it interesting how history often repeats itself.

Regarding temples : Acts 7: 47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him. 48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be? 50Has not My hand made all these things?’ 51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. There is no doubt a house of learning was established... but it was not meant to be a temple in the way we view it now. It was a place of gathering and learning and discovering the divine. We've turned it into an edifice that we think is holy and think we can only receive the most revelation there... when we are the temple 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Standing in Holy Places is emphatically not the Place built by hands, it is us, dedicating our lives to God learning bit by bit from the Lord becoming more and more sanctified. The temple is merely symbolic to show us how we are to grow ourselves. Nothing inside a temple has any efficacy without hte Holy Spirit of Promise and most of it is literally just vain repetition of prayers. There is good from the modern day temples, like ther eis good in all things, but Temples have become a modern day idol, one of many that we worship all in the name of God, not understanding that we are doing as stated in Isaiah 1:13: Bring your worthless offerings no more; your incense is detestable to Me—your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations. I cannot endure iniquity in a solemn assembly. 14I hate your New Moons and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. 15When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! 17Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.” 18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.

We need to turn back to our Lord and Savior and make HIm our Lord and Savior rather than just saying He is our Lord and Savior. Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter.
OK sure we may include being born again as a low common denominator. And in reality I here that term mentioned fairly often. But they also often use other terms trying to make the same point such as offering a broken heart and contrite spirit. Even so we can agree that we can do much better in this area. After all I think that the Fulness of the Gospel is the milk that should be taught as the LCD, and the Lord put it concisely this way, "And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (D&C 39:5-6.)

I have taught many lessons and delivered a few talks on standing in holy places and temples are just one place amongst a list including anywhere where a faithful follower of Christ stands. I never got any of the inpressions about the temple that you are suggesting, as if it is a precept of men. or a form of idolatry. Perhaps you should look again at the temple endowment and see what it is really teaching, because it's not really about the creation story.
I agree with your first paragraph, which is why I said to gather or scatter However, I did not cite it and many members are unaware of New Testament scriptures that I paraphrase : here is the full quote Matt 12: 30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

The fullness of the Gospel should be taught, but more often than not we teach the "covenant path" which is not found anywhere in scripture. It is a buzz word used today to get people to make covenants. The fullness of the gospel is often not taught, however. What is taught? Philosophies of men mingled with scripture. We don't teach "denying yourself" or "picking up your cross" or even what it actually means to "follow Christ."

In general most members believe the following: I am baptized in to the true church (check) I was confirmed a member of the "true" church (check) I went on a mission and/or am endowed (check) I am married in the temple (check) I attend church weekly (check) I read my scriptures often (check) I pray morning and night (check) I have a current temple recommend (check)

They believe doing those things = eternal life. They literally think because they have done those things they are going to the highest level of the celestial kingdom - even though they secretly feel miserable inside if they aren't 1) always doing something with the temple or 2)in a special calling. (I realize for many I am painting with a broad brush here)

I can not tell you how many members (because there have been so many) that think they are good if they do the above. Baptism, however means nothing if it is not done with true intent - true intent does not mean you are 8 and need to get baptized. True intent is an actual desire to cast off the natural man - which means and includes selfish desires/self-seeking and putting on Christ (charity the way scriptures describes it, not the world). It is dying to the natural man and putting on the new spiritual man. If done with this intent, then the spirit comes. That being said, I believe God is extremely merciful and when a person does have a broken heart and contrite spirit (which is not just when someone lays hands on your head, it is a state of being) then they are born again, but it is an event and that state of having a broken heart and contrite spirit ought to be maintained - and King Benjamin gives a good explanation on how to maintain that state in Mosiah.

That is awesome you understand it. However, I have been in a ridiculous number of sacrament meetings or testimony meetings in which a member says something like "I can only receive revelation when I"m in the temple" or "I only feel at peace when I'm in the temple" or "I feel closest to God when I'm in the temple." These statements, whether intentional or not do the following : 1) place the temple as a mediator between them and God (and only Christ is the mediator) 2)they claim the temple is what gives them peace (Christ is the only one who can give true peace... their crutch is the temple and it has replaced trusting in the Lord and is an idol) 3) Again the temple is a mediator and they don't beleive they can communicate or be close to God outside of the temple and only in the temple can they be "that" close to God. The temple has become their Savior. Obviously if you ask the person they would say "No!" however, they do not realize that the temple has become their God.

Literally hundreds of hours are spent focusing on dead people and very little is focused on a relationship with God. Yes in LDS belief, there is good that comes from it, but at the expense of our relationship with the Father, that is wrong. No one would claim it is at the expense of the relationship, but we love what we spend time on. How many hours has someone spent indexing or doing family history, or doing names for the dead in the temple and how many hours does that same person spend communicating with God. Or even trying to communicate, because most people have a struggle even communicating with Him because they don't believe He speaks to them... they believe He can speak to others, but not to them. How do I know, because I have asked and spoken with so many people. People literally are beating them selves up for sins they committed years ago and have repented of, but can't forgive themselves, they spend all their time readings scriptures and "praying" when I say praying I mean begging forgiveness for that which was already forgiven them and basically communicating their own worthlessness before the Lord, without expressing faith or believing in the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing in Faith that Christ will make them better as they submit. Instead they walk away from prayer feeling worse about themselves rather than better. Tehy struggle to communicate with Father because they feel unworthy, not fully believing in the saving Grace of the Son. The leap of faith is hard because they aren't taught the faith, because again, philosophies of men mingled with scripture with things like "everybody does that" or "you'll never be perfect brother (implying so don't try)" And yes all those statements are true on the surface, but they must be completed with in Christ all things are possible. Everybody MAY have done that, but it doesn't mean you have to keep doing it and You can be perfect in Christ, no longer submitting to sin. Crying as Nephi did "Awake oh my soul and no longer droop in sin. Rejoice oh my heart and no longer give place to the enemy of my soul!" We give ourselves permission to sin rather than striving for what Christ gave us. (as an aside temptation is different than sin, to be very clear)

I speak of all of this because I did all these things and many, many members of the church I have spoken with believe these things.

So members of the chruch think that "doing" is what saves them rather than knowing the Lord who gave them life - for knowing God the eternal father and The SOn whom He has sent = eternal life (John 17). So we know about God, and we talk about Him and we sing about Him and sing "I believe in Christ he is my source of truth and light" and then on the way home we get into arguments about what we are going to watch on tv or argue over where we are going to eat tomorrow. Then we search on the internet of bad things that don't give us any life and fail to seek God's counsel in most things we do, because we assume we gotta "work it out in our mind" and then we just kind "go with it."

Finally the endowment itself... I don't recall me every saying it was "just" about the creation story.. or in fact even mentioning the creations story. The Endowment is a story of how as we Know God more ( actually know hIm, through prayer and speaking with HIm rather than at Him)we receive more guidance, as we are guided we become the "light" of the world as we were called to be. Eventually we are able to pierce teh veil (the veil is the flesh, because we are the temple) and we can speak to God more directly. This comes as we eventually give our entire lives to God - our thoughts, our actions etc. The tokens and signs are just symbols of the knowledge that God gives us as we seek Him in prayer and come to know Him. It is about relationship. If we do not have relationship, we miss out on a lot and act and react like orphans without a Father never feeling or understanding why God loves us, when we feel awful about our selves. As we udnerstand our relationship we understand God's desire for others to have that relationship and we are given authority and power in His name (the endowment) to bring forth life, liek Christ did, because we bear His name and are to act and react similar to Him - not being guided by the flesh, but hte Spriit in all things.

Like I said, there are great things that have been taught in the church, but hte purity of such things has been inundated with skim milk bordering on water. It isn't even raw whole milk anymore. We think doing saves us and we don't know how to exercise faith (speaking generally). By the way I'm not mad, to be clear - I'm actually heart broken because I see and speak with so many members that have such a twisted view of themselves and the gospel. They are working and working and not obtaining anything, because what they are working for can not be obtained except by a broken heart and contrite spirit - one fully submitted to God, realizing they they honestly can not do it themselves and they need the help... no they need the Creator to snatch htem from the dark, because all they can do is like Alma and cry out for mercy believing and hoping they will receive and God will because HE is loving and He is merciful and then just trust (become as a little child) that God will continue to shepherd them, because they are His sheep :)

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cab
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Re: Questioning my Garments

Post by cab »

John Tavner wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 9:48 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 6:46 pm
John Tavner wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 5:02 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 12:07 pm

Well, I think that is largely a milk vs meat debate The Church kind of tends to teach to the lowest common denominator and advances past that require someone with ears to hear and eyes to see. The meat is kind of meant to come via inspiration to those who seek, knock and ask. God's word is layered for that reason, so the same words can be milk to one with embedded meat for another. We are told to search the scriptures and to hear Him. By doing those two things we can gain an understanding of purification, justification, sanctification, being born again, and so on.
Being born again IS the lowest common denominator. If we are not born again, we aren't called Christ's. We use that excuse a lot (not talk about you in particular, but in general) and that excuse has turned us into just not teaching the gospel. It turns into philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Either we gather or we scatter - we need to start gathering.

As an aside, I find it interesting that we as a church are very focused on the old testament... almost as if the new testament never occurred. As Paul said We have almost become a modern day Judah. Sadducees at the top and pharisees at the bottom. I find it interesting how history often repeats itself.

Regarding temples : Acts 7: 47But it was Solomon who built the house for Him. 48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be? 50Has not My hand made all these things?’ 51You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. There is no doubt a house of learning was established... but it was not meant to be a temple in the way we view it now. It was a place of gathering and learning and discovering the divine. We've turned it into an edifice that we think is holy and think we can only receive the most revelation there... when we are the temple 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Standing in Holy Places is emphatically not the Place built by hands, it is us, dedicating our lives to God learning bit by bit from the Lord becoming more and more sanctified. The temple is merely symbolic to show us how we are to grow ourselves. Nothing inside a temple has any efficacy without hte Holy Spirit of Promise and most of it is literally just vain repetition of prayers. There is good from the modern day temples, like ther eis good in all things, but Temples have become a modern day idol, one of many that we worship all in the name of God, not understanding that we are doing as stated in Isaiah 1:13: Bring your worthless offerings no more; your incense is detestable to Me—your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations. I cannot endure iniquity in a solemn assembly. 14I hate your New Moons and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. 15When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! 17Learn to do right; seek justice and correct the oppressor. Defend the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.” 18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.

We need to turn back to our Lord and Savior and make HIm our Lord and Savior rather than just saying He is our Lord and Savior. Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter.
OK sure we may include being born again as a low common denominator. And in reality I here that term mentioned fairly often. But they also often use other terms trying to make the same point such as offering a broken heart and contrite spirit. Even so we can agree that we can do much better in this area. After all I think that the Fulness of the Gospel is the milk that should be taught as the LCD, and the Lord put it concisely this way, "And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (D&C 39:5-6.)

I have taught many lessons and delivered a few talks on standing in holy places and temples are just one place amongst a list including anywhere where a faithful follower of Christ stands. I never got any of the inpressions about the temple that you are suggesting, as if it is a precept of men. or a form of idolatry. Perhaps you should look again at the temple endowment and see what it is really teaching, because it's not really about the creation story.
I agree with your first paragraph, which is why I said to gather or scatter However, I did not cite it and many members are unaware of New Testament scriptures that I paraphrase : here is the full quote Matt 12: 30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

The fullness of the Gospel should be taught, but more often than not we teach the "covenant path" which is not found anywhere in scripture. It is a buzz word used today to get people to make covenants. The fullness of the gospel is often not taught, however. What is taught? Philosophies of men mingled with scripture. We don't teach "denying yourself" or "picking up your cross" or even what it actually means to "follow Christ."

In general most members believe the following: I am baptized in to the true church (check) I was confirmed a member of the "true" church (check) I went on a mission and/or am endowed (check) I am married in the temple (check) I attend church weekly (check) I read my scriptures often (check) I pray morning and night (check) I have a current temple recommend (check)

They believe doing those things = eternal life. They literally think because they have done those things they are going to the highest level of the celestial kingdom - even though they secretly feel miserable inside if they aren't 1) always doing something with the temple or 2)in a special calling. (I realize for many I am painting with a broad brush here)

I can not tell you how many members (because there have been so many) that think they are good if they do the above. Baptism, however means nothing if it is not done with true intent - true intent does not mean you are 8 and need to get baptized. True intent is an actual desire to cast off the natural man - which means and includes selfish desires/self-seeking and putting on Christ (charity the way scriptures describes it, not the world). It is dying to the natural man and putting on the new spiritual man. If done with this intent, then the spirit comes. That being said, I believe God is extremely merciful and when a person does have a broken heart and contrite spirit (which is not just when someone lays hands on your head, it is a state of being) then they are born again, but it is an event and that state of having a broken heart and contrite spirit ought to be maintained - and King Benjamin gives a good explanation on how to maintain that state in Mosiah.

That is awesome you understand it. However, I have been in a ridiculous number of sacrament meetings or testimony meetings in which a member says something like "I can only receive revelation when I"m in the temple" or "I only feel at peace when I'm in the temple" or "I feel closest to God when I'm in the temple." These statements, whether intentional or not do the following : 1) place the temple as a mediator between them and God (and only Christ is the mediator) 2)they claim the temple is what gives them peace (Christ is the only one who can give true peace... their crutch is the temple and it has replaced trusting in the Lord and is an idol) 3) Again the temple is a mediator and they don't beleive they can communicate or be close to God outside of the temple and only in the temple can they be "that" close to God. The temple has become their Savior. Obviously if you ask the person they would say "No!" however, they do not realize that the temple has become their God.

Literally hundreds of hours are spent focusing on dead people and very little is focused on a relationship with God. Yes in LDS belief, there is good that comes from it, but at the expense of our relationship with the Father, that is wrong. No one would claim it is at the expense of the relationship, but we love what we spend time on. How many hours has someone spent indexing or doing family history, or doing names for the dead in the temple and how many hours does that same person spend communicating with God. Or even trying to communicate, because most people have a struggle even communicating with Him because they don't believe He speaks to them... they believe He can speak to others, but not to them. How do I know, because I have asked and spoken with so many people. People literally are beating them selves up for sins they committed years ago and have repented of, but can't forgive themselves, they spend all their time readings scriptures and "praying" when I say praying I mean begging forgiveness for that which was already forgiven them and basically communicating their own worthlessness before the Lord, without expressing faith or believing in the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing in Faith that Christ will make them better as they submit. Instead they walk away from prayer feeling worse about themselves rather than better. Tehy struggle to communicate with Father because they feel unworthy, not fully believing in the saving Grace of the Son. The leap of faith is hard because they aren't taught the faith, because again, philosophies of men mingled with scripture with things like "everybody does that" or "you'll never be perfect brother (implying so don't try)" And yes all those statements are true on the surface, but they must be completed with in Christ all things are possible. Everybody MAY have done that, but it doesn't mean you have to keep doing it and You can be perfect in Christ, no longer submitting to sin. Crying as Nephi did "Awake oh my soul and no longer droop in sin. Rejoice oh my heart and no longer give place to the enemy of my soul!" We give ourselves permission to sin rather than striving for what Christ gave us. (as an aside temptation is different than sin, to be very clear)

I speak of all of this because I did all these things and many, many members of the church I have spoken with believe these things.

So members of the chruch think that "doing" is what saves them rather than knowing the Lord who gave them life - for knowing God the eternal father and The SOn whom He has sent = eternal life (John 17). So we know about God, and we talk about Him and we sing about Him and sing "I believe in Christ he is my source of truth and light" and then on the way home we get into arguments about what we are going to watch on tv or argue over where we are going to eat tomorrow. Then we search on the internet of bad things that don't give us any life and fail to seek God's counsel in most things we do, because we assume we gotta "work it out in our mind" and then we just kind "go with it."

Finally the endowment itself... I don't recall me every saying it was "just" about the creation story.. or in fact even mentioning the creations story. The Endowment is a story of how as we Know God more ( actually know hIm, through prayer and speaking with HIm rather than at Him)we receive more guidance, as we are guided we become the "light" of the world as we were called to be. Eventually we are able to pierce teh veil (the veil is the flesh, because we are the temple) and we can speak to God more directly. This comes as we eventually give our entire lives to God - our thoughts, our actions etc. The tokens and signs are just symbols of the knowledge that God gives us as we seek Him in prayer and come to know Him. It is about relationship. If we do not have relationship, we miss out on a lot and act and react like orphans without a Father never feeling or understanding why God loves us, when we feel awful about our selves. As we udnerstand our relationship we understand God's desire for others to have that relationship and we are given authority and power in His name (the endowment) to bring forth life, liek Christ did, because we bear His name and are to act and react similar to Him - not being guided by the flesh, but hte Spriit in all things.

Like I said, there are great things that have been taught in the church, but hte purity of such things has been inundated with skim milk bordering on water. It isn't even raw whole milk anymore. We think doing saves us and we don't know how to exercise faith (speaking generally). By the way I'm not mad, to be clear - I'm actually heart broken because I see and speak with so many members that have such a twisted view of themselves and the gospel. They are working and working and not obtaining anything, because what they are working for can not be obtained except by a broken heart and contrite spirit - one fully submitted to God, realizing they they honestly can not do it themselves and they need the help... no they need the Creator to snatch htem from the dark, because all they can do is like Alma and cry out for mercy believing and hoping they will receive and God will because HE is loving and He is merciful and then just trust (become as a little child) that God will continue to shepherd them, because they are His sheep :)


Preach it brotha!
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