LDS Freedom Forum

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:09 am

I know lots of you gals here bake a lot, so I'm looking for your input.

I've had my very trusty Kitchenaid mixer since 1997. It's a champ and I love it, but it's getting noisier lately and I'm afraid it may meet its demise. It still could run for many years, but I'm researching a new mixer. I have the 5 quart size, and I'd like a little more capacity.

What I love about the Kitchenaid:
For cookies, frostings and candies, I don't think it can be beat. It works fabulously well, and the stainless bowl without strange nooks and crannies is really easy to clean.
I use the food grinder a lot - not for meat, I like the super smooth grind for grinding up cookies mostly for crusts. It outperforms my food processor for that.
It's pretty - for me this does matter because I bake a lot and it needs to be on my counter permanently.

What I don't like:
Bread dough in it isn't so great. The kneading isn't very efficient but I've never minded too much because I'm a weirdo who enjoys finishing off the dough by hand. No matter how well a machine kneads, I will always finish it by hand because I like doing it. But it's really straining the motor to make dough in it, and when it's mixing a stiff dough it likes to scoot around the counter sometimes.

Reading about the newer Kitchenaids I am pretty concerned. It seems that their quality might not be what it used to. I'm afraid of the new Kitchenaids because I don't want to fork out a good chunk of change and have the gears strip out.

My mom has a Bosch, and she loves it for bread. I know there are a lot of Bosch lovers out there, but I've always been hesitant to buy the Bosch for the following reasons:

It's ugly. There is nothing charming about it and I think it will look ugly on my counter.

It's plastic. I hate plastic. Aside from plastic scrapers, I try to keep plastic out of my kitchen.

It seems to be a pain to clean compared to the Kitchenaid.

For whipping, it doesn't seem that efficient compared with the Kitchenaid.

The pluses:

It's a tank, and for bread kneading it kicks butt.

I wouldn't worry about stripping it out, as it appears to be able to handle large batches of bread dough with ease.

I've also looked at the Electrolux/Magic Mill Assistant. It can handle dough like the Bosch and I like the way the bowl spins, which seems like a better design when it comes to durability. There is really no need for a slow start with it, it doesn't kick up flour the way it's designed. To me this looks like the superior machine with the exception of whipping. You have to have a different bowl for that which seems stupid. It isn't as ugly as the Bosch.

The best prices I'm finding right now are these:
Kitchenaid Pro 600 $320 with 20% off Bed Bath and Beyond Coupon - bonus ice cream bowl attachment (which I don't need).

Bosch Universal with cookie paddle bonus $420 bucks from For Your Kitchen

Magic Mill Assistant $600. Backordered. No bonus. I'd have to rely on a hand mixer for whipping because I think it's ridiculous to buy a different bowl and attachment for it and I'm way too stubborn to do it!

There is also the Cuisenart 7 quart mixer, which is on the lower end of the price range and was rated highly by America's Test Kitchen, but it doesn't have a very long track record.

**Sponsor**

by **keeprunning** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:24 am

I bought mine super cheap used, but it works so great for bread dough. So my vote is for Bosch. Mine is not a Bosch, but it's made exactly the same. I've never used it for anything but dough. I just use my hand mixer, food processor, or blender for other stuff.

by **Jason** » Wed May 25, 2011 12:11 pm

Well.....I've been going through this myself (for my wife - 6 kids and lots of bread consumption).

We currently have the KitchenAide 600 Pro....and it sucks. We've had it just over a year and I've already replaced the gears (which are fairly cheap) but we don't do bread anymore in it. Its awesome for cookies, whipping cream, etc.....and ok for ice cream (w/freezer bowl)....sucks for bread or anything heavy and robust. Ever since Whirlpool purchased KitchenAide from Hobart....they've cheapened it up to increase their profit margin while they destroy the brand.

After all the research I've done my next one will probably be a Bosch (despite the looks) for bread when the budget allotment gets to that point.

If I was going to go all out....I would skip the Electrolux and go straight to Hobart (probably used one off EBAY).

http://www.hobartcorp.com/products/food ... art-mixer/

....any resemblance to your KitchenAide???? LOL

http://www.hobartcorp.com/products/food ... top-mixer/

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 1:31 pm

I have looked at Hobart, but I've gotten pretty much the same message - they sold and the quality has been in decline ever since.

I just got back from BB&B and looked at the Kitchenaid for the quadrillionth time, and also checked out the 5.5 quart Cuisenart. The Cuisenart just doesn't feel quality to me, so I've eliminated that.... don't care what the Test Kitchen says!

I had all but settled on the Kitchenaid after that trip, but now I'm back to waffling. Maybe I just need to talk my husband into both. :))

Yeah, that probably wouldn't go over well.

I called my Mom and talked with her about her Bosch again, and she says she likes it better than Kitchenaid for bread, but it sucks for small batches of anything. The only reason she'd choose it over the Kitchenaid in the future is for the blender... but she doesn't make bread nearly as frequently as I do.

Ahhh... I hate decisions like this!

What year did you buy the 600, Jason? The reason I ask is that from my reading it's the gear box cover that causes the gears to strip. They've made it from plastic in the past and as it heats it flexes. Eventually this causes the gears to strip. I was under the impression that they'd fixed that and were using metal boxes again, but I can't get a firm answer about that.

by **SmallFarm** » Wed May 25, 2011 1:45 pm

Y'all are spoiled

(I say that in jest of course :ymhug:

) I have to use elbow grease. :((

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:02 pm

SmallFarm wrote:Y'all are spoiled (I say that in jest of course ) I have to use elbow grease.

Truly, I am spoiled... but with a price. We're ginormous tightwads about most things.

Sell your crochet on etsy and buy a mixer!

by **chicafoom** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:15 pm

ChelC wrote:I will always finish it by hand because I like doing it.

I do the exact same thing when making bread. Anyway, I have the KitchenAid pro 600 and I have yet to have any problems with it at all. That being said, I doubt I use it as much as Jason's family would since there are only 4 of us. I did make a double batch of bread (4 loaves) a couple of weeks ago and was being lazy and let the mixer knead it longer than usual. The bowl was completely full and I was pushing it pretty hard so the motor overheated, but after 5 minutes it was fine again. That is the only issue I've had thus far. We bought ours 2.5 years ago. I am sure it's not made as well as your older one. That's how it is with just about anything is these days. They make things they only last for a while so we have to replace it with the latest and greatest of whatever. It's frustrating.

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:26 pm

chicafoom wrote:That's how it is with just about anything is these days. They make things they only last for a while so we have to replace it with the latest and greatest of whatever. It's frustrating.

This is what I have a hard time accepting. Can't there be a brand that refuses compromise and charges twice as much? I'd gladly pay double the price if I knew I was buying a really solid piece of equipment that would last 30 years!

by **chicafoom** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:36 pm

Agreed! I'd spend a lot more on appliances, electronics, cars, etc. if I knew I could keep them forever. I don't need the new model every few years. I just want something that lasts.

by **Jason** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 pm

ChelC wrote:I have looked at Hobart, but I've gotten pretty much the same message - they sold and the quality has been in decline ever since.

I just got back from BB&B and looked at the Kitchenaid for the quadrillionth time, and also checked out the 5.5 quart Cuisenart. The Cuisinart just doesn't feel quality to me, so I've eliminated that.... don't care what the Test Kitchen says!

I had all but settled on the Kitchenaid after that trip, but now I'm back to waffling. Maybe I just need to talk my husband into both. Yeah, that probably wouldn't go over well.

I called my Mom and talked with her about her Bosch again, and she says she likes it better than Kitchenaid for bread, but it sucks for small batches of anything. The only reason she'd choose it over the Kitchenaid in the future is for the blender... but she doesn't make bread nearly as frequently as I do.

Ahhh... I hate decisions like this!

What year did you buy the 600, Jason? The reason I ask is that from my reading it's the gear box cover that causes the gears to strip. They've made it from plastic in the past and as it heats it flexes. Eventually this causes the gears to strip. I was under the impression that they'd fixed that and were using metal boxes again, but I can't get a firm answer about that.

We had the smaller 5 quart KitchenAide I bought for my wife (don't you love that...buy it for her when we all benefit from it...and her not so much) back in 2002. It was still working but barely do a loaf or two of bread....so gave it away and bought the bigger one (600 Pro) for Christmas 2009. So we are rolling up on 18 months with it. I had to replace the drive gears I think in early January. Less than $20 off of Amazon so not too bad....but we haven't done bread in it since as the gears are just powdered metal and get destroyed quite rapidly. Mine had/has the metal gear box....and you can buy a replacement metal gearbox for $15 if I remember correctly. The gears are just cheap powdered metal and the configuration (design) puts lots of torque on the gears (especially with full batch of bread).

We also do whole wheat with wheat sprouts.....so its heavy bread dough.

The Bosch is a different design and the gearing is like 90 to 1 versus 10 to 1 with the KitchenAide. So by design they are better at different tasks - whipping cookie dough versus kneading bread.

Personally if it were me....I'd keep your old KitchenAide and replace whatever gears you needed to (pretty easy to do - few screws and couple minutes of time).....and buy the Bosch. Then you are covered from cookies to bread. Store the Bosch out of site. The Bosch outlet often does $50 off sale so price is $350.

The reviews on Amazon for the Cuisinart weren't too hot....

by **SmallFarm** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:30 pm

ChelC wrote:
SmallFarm wrote:Y'all are spoiled (I say that in jest of course ) I have to use elbow grease.

Truly, I am spoiled... but with a price. We're ginormous tightwads about most things.

Sell your crochet on etsy and buy a mixer!

I have actually been looking into selling my work.

by **keeprunning** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:40 pm

I had to do it by hand for years until I lucked out on my craigslist find. It was a tithing blessing for sure. Now there is no reason not to make bread, it's so easy.

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:44 pm

Jason wrote:
ChelC wrote:I have looked at Hobart, but I've gotten pretty much the same message - they sold and the quality has been in decline ever since.

I just got back from BB&B and looked at the Kitchenaid for the quadrillionth time, and also checked out the 5.5 quart Cuisenart. The Cuisinart just doesn't feel quality to me, so I've eliminated that.... don't care what the Test Kitchen says!

I had all but settled on the Kitchenaid after that trip, but now I'm back to waffling. Maybe I just need to talk my husband into both. Yeah, that probably wouldn't go over well.

I called my Mom and talked with her about her Bosch again, and she says she likes it better than Kitchenaid for bread, but it sucks for small batches of anything. The only reason she'd choose it over the Kitchenaid in the future is for the blender... but she doesn't make bread nearly as frequently as I do.

Ahhh... I hate decisions like this!

What year did you buy the 600, Jason? The reason I ask is that from my reading it's the gear box cover that causes the gears to strip. They've made it from plastic in the past and as it heats it flexes. Eventually this causes the gears to strip. I was under the impression that they'd fixed that and were using metal boxes again, but I can't get a firm answer about that.

We had the smaller 5 quart KitchenAide I bought for my wife (don't you love that...buy it for her when we all benefit from it...and her not so much) back in 2002. It was still working but barely do a loaf or two of bread....so gave it away and bought the bigger one (600 Pro) for Christmas 2009. So we are rolling up on 18 months with it. I had to replace the drive gears I think in early January. Less than $20 off of Amazon so not too bad....but we haven't done bread in it since as the gears are just powdered metal and get destroyed quite rapidly. Mine had/has the metal gear box....and you can buy a replacement metal gearbox for $15 if I remember correctly. The gears are just cheap powdered metal and the configuration (design) puts lots of torque on the gears (especially with full batch of bread).

We also do whole wheat with wheat sprouts.....so its heavy bread dough.

The Bosch is a different design and the gearing is like 90 to 1 versus 10 to 1 with the KitchenAide. So by design they are better at different tasks - whipping cookie dough versus kneading bread.

Personally if it were me....I'd keep your old KitchenAide and replace whatever gears you needed to (pretty easy to do - few screws and couple minutes of time).....and buy the Bosch. Then you are covered from cookies to bread. Store the Bosch out of site. The Bosch outlet often does $50 off sale so price is $350.

The reviews on Amazon for the Cuisinart weren't too hot....

I'm so disappointed to hear that the problem is the gears and not the box! Are there any after market kits with better quality gears that you've seen? My husband and I are both pretty handy, so I'm definitely not afraid of that.

Maybe I should figure out something to sell on etsy so I can afford both. I want a bigger capacity bowl, too.

If only my grandma could have seen into the future and set aside some things for us. Like a few eighties model Chevy pickups (in storage so when one rusts out I can grab another), an old style Kitchenaid, and a solid sewing machine.

I hate all this new crap we're forced to buy. [-(

by **Looking Forward** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:16 pm

We currently have the KitchenAide 600 Pro....and it sucks. We've had it just over a year and I've already replaced the gears (which are fairly cheap) but we don't do bread anymore in it.

DANG! I wish I had read the BEFORE I bought mine. I ordered it in April, and the FIRST DAY of making bread it died on me!!! After lack of communication, I'm finally getting a replacement mixer sent. I even researched it out, and the comsumer report rated them the highest.

I bought it for specifically mixing bread too, cause I do not have the strength to knead it by hand! :((

(especially Whole Wheat bread) One service person told me that you had to wait 45 mins after making bread before making anything else. Then the other said as long as it is not hot you are ok. I guess I will have to knead it 4 mins, let it rest and then knead it again. (I just don't have the stamina to knead whole wheat bread for 10 minutes.)

Who makes cookies in a mixer anyway?

by **Jason** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:25 pm

The positive is the gears are cheap (stock up on back ups) -
http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-mixer- ... 049&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-821239 ... 049&sr=8-4
http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-970923 ... 049&sr=8-7
http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-970333 ... 049&sr=8-9
http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-mixer- ... 86&sr=8-20

...that's basically the entire drive train that would run you just over $40 plus shipping.

Worm gear is what really took the pounding on mine - only one I replaced.

Again the 90:1 gear ration of the Bosch makes it better for heavy doughs while the 10:1 ration for Kitchenaide makes it inherently better for whipping.....other aspects of course like bowl design and how it scrapes the bowl to knead the bread.....but the gearing design differences really separate the two.

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:31 pm

I always make cookies in a mixer, lol!

I'm sort of backwards... love doing bread by hand, hate doing cookies by hand.

I think I've come to a decision. I found a site that offers free shipping on the Magic Mill/Electrolux Assistent (WHY do they insist on spelling that wrong?) It's pricey, but this site also has the whipping bowl (designed like the Bosch with a center post) included, in addition to the stainless bowl. Now I just have to inform my husband that we need to spend an extra $200 over what we had planned. But since he just got a new (old) motorcycle I think I'm probably in the window of golden opportunity. :ymdevil:

http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/magic_ ... mixer.aspx

Here is a page with a demo if anyone is interested:
http://www.breadbeckers.com/store/pc/vi ... oduct=2932

Now, we'll see if I still am settled on this decision in fifteen minutes...

by **ChelC** » Wed May 25, 2011 5:11 pm

An hour and forty minutes... and I haven't waffled yet. This decision just might stick!

by **keeprunning** » Wed May 25, 2011 5:15 pm

Wow, sounds nice!

by **Like** » Wed May 25, 2011 5:19 pm

ChelC wrote:Here is a page with a demo if anyone is interested:
http://www.breadbeckers.com/store/pc/vi ... oduct=2932

That mixer looks great ChelC!!!

by **An Eye Single** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:39 pm

My sister-in-law has a KitchenAid and hates it for bread dough, but loves it for everything else. We have a Bosch and I LOVE it!!! We make four loaves of bread almost everyday. I could not live without my Bosch. It's one of the things that I am going to miss when the lights go out. That Assistent looks pretty impressive, though. Looks like your about to get the best of both worlds. Can't wait to hear a follow-up review. BTW, good to see that you found Pleasant Hill Grain. They are a great company to do business with.

by **chicafoom** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:18 am

I'd never heard of the Electrolux, but it looks like it's what you're looking for. I hope it is and lasts you a long time. I think it's actually looks pretty cool - 50's retro kind of style, if you're into that. I, too, will be interested to hear how you like it.

by **ChelC** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:29 am

Well, I bit the bullet and bought it (ouch!) and now I'm feeling guilty about spending so much... I always do that! Breathe in, breathe out... the guilt goes away, right?

It should arrive Monday, I'm guessing.

I did a lot of research and some people LOVE the Bosch, but hate the Magic Mill, and vice versa. It seems to just come down to personal preference. I went to the Bosch store last night and confirmed what I knew already... it just aint my style.

So... having never seen one of these in person I'm a bit nervous that it could turn out to also not be my style and we'll take it in the shorts and have to pay for shipping and restocking, but oh well. What was funny is one lady's comment about how much she hates the Magic Mill was part of what sold me on it. She said she couldn't get it to work for her, and she felt like she was stuck with it for 700 years because it was built so well. :))

Guilt... begone!

by **ChelC** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 pm

It came today and I just pulled four big loaves of whole wheat bread from the oven. Didn't have the patience to try a soaked recipe yet!

It is definitely different from anything I've ever used or seen, the method is just not the same at all. I think it will take a little getting used to. It looks bigger in person than I expected. The bowl is solid and really easy to clean, I wasn't sure about the durability of the scraper from the videos, but it's a nice chunky thing. I used the roller and scraper following the Bread Becker's method but with my own recipe. I haven't tried the dough hook yet, or the whisk bowl.

My overall impression so far is that this is a really, really solidly constructed machine. It's only 600 watts, but it's designed with plenty of torque and it had no problem at all with the dough I threw in it today, at any speed (tried kneading on every speed). It's not as beautiful as the Kitchenaid, but it does look nice on the counter - prettier than the Bosch IMO. The kneading action was much nicer than my old Kitchenaid and the bowl capacity - 8 qts vs. 5.5 is much bigger. It allowed me to get a nice dough with less flour than the Kitchenaid, or at least it seemed that way. I got really nice oven spring on these loaves.

I think if you want a machine that you can just throw everything in and walk away, this might not be that machine - at least not until you're used to it, which could take a while. Something I loved about it - the open bowl design made it super easy to add ingredients while running the machine and it never tossed up flour or anything onto the counter.

I think the Bosch and this machine are well matched on power - it's just a matter of personal preference. I imagine most bakers might actually prefer the Bosch (not sure), but I like the way this machine lets me feel the dough and fuss with it a little more. I'll probably post another update after I try out some more recipes.

by **Jason** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:47 am

ChelC wrote:It came today and I just pulled four big loaves of whole wheat bread from the oven. Didn't have the patience to try a soaked recipe yet!

It is definitely different from anything I've ever used or seen, the method is just not the same at all. I think it will take a little getting used to. It looks bigger in person than I expected. The bowl is solid and really easy to clean, I wasn't sure about the durability of the scraper from the videos, but it's a nice chunky thing. I used the roller and scraper following the Bread Becker's method but with my own recipe. I haven't tried the dough hook yet, or the whisk bowl.

My overall impression so far is that this is a really, really solidly constructed machine. It's only 600 watts, but it's designed with plenty of torque and it had no problem at all with the dough I threw in it today, at any speed (tried kneading on every speed). It's not as beautiful as the Kitchenaid, but it does look nice on the counter - prettier than the Bosch IMO. The kneading action was much nicer than my old Kitchenaid and the bowl capacity - 8 qts vs. 5.5 is much bigger. It allowed me to get a nice dough with less flour than the Kitchenaid, or at least it seemed that way. I got really nice oven spring on these loaves.

I think if you want a machine that you can just throw everything in and walk away, this might not be that machine - at least not until you're used to it, which could take a while. Something I loved about it - the open bowl design made it super easy to add ingredients while running the machine and it never tossed up flour or anything onto the counter.

I think the Bosch and this machine are well matched on power - it's just a matter of personal preference. I imagine most bakers might actually prefer the Bosch (not sure), but I like the way this machine lets me feel the dough and fuss with it a little more. I'll probably post another update after I try out some more recipes.

Wow...didn't know the bowl was that big (I looked that them previously). Do you know what the gearing ratio is?

The watts rating is marketing......like rating home audio receivers on watts.....when its the current that counts.....and in the case of mixers - current and gearing (leverage)...

by **ChelC** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:08 pm

All I know is that it's belt driven. There is a pic on the pleasant hill grain site that shows it.

by **waking** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:13 pm

ChelC....did you know bosch makes a stainless steel bowl? I think you have to order it from Germany...or somewhere out of the US, but you can get it. I just got my bosch in Feb. I do still use a hand mixer for small batches, but I have the metal gear for cookies etc. I have a family of 7, so I did need the larger capacity. I really hope you enjoy your electrolux. It sounds really nice. Happy baking

by **bbrown** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:56 am

Dude, why not a $10 garage-sale special bread machine to mix your dough?

One loaf at a time, but you can put whatever recipe you want in the mixer, set it on the dough setting (all I ever do) then bake it in the oven like you normally would.

I have a kitchenaide and I don't like it that much...need a much higher capacity.

by **singyourwayhome** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:40 am

Hey, I know ChelC bought her machine already- but for anyone reading the most and trying to decide on their next purchase, I'll add my two cents' worth.

I have a Bosch and love it. I have both a plastic bowl and a stainless steel bowl; I use the latter when making fondant. It can handle high-temperature foods.

I got this machine used, for $150, about 15 years ago. I don't know exactly how old it is, but it was made between 1973 and 1977. The only problems I've had were a detatched cord (under $10 to fix, using a cord from Lowe's) and a bearing that went out. That cost $40-60 to fix, I forget. I make six loaves of bread a week, wedding cakes (a few a year, not all the time), and huge batches of frosting.

by **uglypitbull** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:08 pm

You can't beat Costco for return policy....got my Kitchen Aid HD mixer on Black Friday in 2006 for $210....its still cranking out cookies to this day. I think normal price is $239.
We still use the Bosch for bread kneading and making mashed potato's. I personally think you could actually mix concrete in a Bosch. :))

by **Jason** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:43 pm

Just got a Bosch a month ago and it rocks.....KitchenAid 600 won't come even close to cranking out 5 loaves of whole wheat bread.

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