Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Bra under or over?

Under
24
26%
Over
69
74%
 
Total votes: 93
Matchmaker
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Matchmaker »

All my life I have worn my garment under my bra. Years ago I asked a matron in the temple about it, and she said to wear my bra over my garments. My bra is extra uncomfortable and ill-fitting as a result of wearing it this way. I would like to know where her counsel came from. It must be written somewhere. I am going to make it a mission of mine to find out.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by A Random Phrase »

Let us know what you find out, Matchmaker.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Laffy wrote:Here is my 2 cents worth

I think we always can run into trouble when we quote that “this Temple worker said this” and another Temple worked said another thing, and so forth.
My understanding is that for both men and women you should were the garment as often as possible. I also think you should try to wear it next to the skin as much as possible. And although this conversation has been related to women (breasts, menstruation) it can also be applied to men. For example, what about a man wearing a jock-strap related to physical activity - -should the garment be over or under?

Although I think too many people – both men and women – are too quick to wear it over and need to trouble themselves more so (e.g., women who report having larger breasts) there are times where with a sincere heart that a person may have to wear the garment over clothing - -such as related medical conditions.
I was a temple worker about 7 years ago, and I was told that it was an old directive to wear the garment touching the skin, and that it was appropriate that women could wear their bra and panties under the garment. I was also told this when I went through for my endowments about 10 years ago, you are now allowed to wear underwear under the Garment. I think this is the problem, where is the revelation given? Where is the official handbook that explains the garment? There isn't one, and that's why we constantly change the "Rules". They are man-made rules. My recent study of church history is taught me this. Pray about it. Go to father and he'll tell you what to do :-) I now look at these discussions as just plain silly that we even have to have them......beehive industries recently altered the garment with a lower waist and different style top, to accommodate LDS women from a survey that they (beehive industries) gave them. So basically beehive industries can decide to alter the garment based on the survey answered by us, but we can't alter the garment when we want a more comfortable fit . Where's the revelation in that? We need to start thinking for ourselves and using common sense. Commonsense has been thrown out the window. Pray about it .

On a sidenote, I have a friend who got in trouble for having a professional alterations person lower the waistline of her garments. That was two years ago, now behive industries does it for us. But they don't get in trouble, and there was no revelation to behive industries, the "revelation" came from a survey of women from the church. Use your brains people .

Gage
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Gage »

Its funny to hear members go back and forth about their garments. If it is something that other members can see the other doing you better believe members are going to be doing it. Never mind what you are doing while wearing the garments, all it matters is that they are on and other members know that they are on. Never mind that you lied to the Bishop to get your temple recommend, thats ok all that matters is you are seen there and everyone knows your garments are on. You have a new member worried how their garments are going to fit, I mean really worried, probably not worried at all about living the gospel and if they can stay faithful. Just worried about those garments. If it wasnt such a social symbol that people make it, I doubt many members would wear them at all. I know many members that should not hold a temple recommend, they lied like many others to get it, but you better believe their garments are always on.

Matchmaker
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Matchmaker »

Beanpicker wrote: June 16th, 2015, 12:42 am This ex -bishop responded to a blog on garment wearing. I think his comment was full of truth. However, most LDS follow blindly without questioning.
Speaking as a former Bishop and a faithful, active member of the LDS church, the only reason – the ONLY reason – I can see for wearing garments at all is to faithfully satisfy a draconian requirement imposed blindly by good people who assume, incorrectly, that God cares if we do it or not. I wear the garment day and night and all that. But if it’s a commandment or a revealed principle, then I would love someone to show me when the revelation was given, to whom it was given, and what the exact words of the revelation were. If there’s some revealed or authoritative basis for the ridiculous rules about what underwear I should wear, then show me the revelation.

Even if we assume (without citation or any offer or proof or even explicit allegation I’m aware of) that the temple ceremony itself is a revealed rite, the temple ceremony doesn’t contain ANY of those stupid rules. It says nothing about modesty. Nothing about when or how the garment should be worn. Nothing about altering it, nothing about the cut or design. Nothing. No revelation I’m aware of contains any of that, and no ceremony does, either. As a Bishop, when I read the statement about wearing the garment day & night as instructed, I read it literally: Because the temple does not instruct that the garment should be worn day and night and contains no instructions whatsoever about when or how the garment should be worn, members should feel no obligation to wear them in any particular way. I did not expound along those lines, of course, but simply read the statement to members and left it up to them to interpret it – hoping the light to go on in their head to realize how stupid garment rules are in the context of what is actually in the temple instructions.

We talk about wearing the garment “as instructed.” As instructed by whom, when, and by what authority? If we eliminate every garment-related instruction given outside the temple liturgy, I am under no obligation or covenant to buy or wear garments at all – the temple does not tell me to buy more or to wear them every day. All it tells me is to wear it “throughout my life.” I’ve done plenty of things throughout my life that I don’t do everyday or even every year. I can make my own to any pattern I desire. I can buy commercially-available underwear and put marks on it however I want. In fact, I can just wear it when I go to the temple, and consider that to constitute wearing it “throughout my life.” I’ve filed a federal income tax return throughout my life – that’s once a year. And if we eliminate every garment-related instruction given without citation to revelation, then we eliminate the temple liturgy, as well, since it is, as far as I can tell, not a revelation, cannot be cited or relied on in analysis of doctrine, and is not open for debate at all.

I wear the garment because I’m a Mormon and I’m part of Mormon culture and, ultimately, I’m willing to put up with it because I don’t want to put up with the flak I’d get if I didn’t wear it. I don’t want my wife, family, and friends to think I’ve lost my faith and, for cultural reasons, I don’t want church leaders and others to think I’m “disobedient” (though really, I think it’s virtuous to disobey unrighteous commands, so maybe I should be true to myself instead of obeying nonsense). But the Church has given me no reason to believe that the garment is anything more than a ridiculous cultural artifact with no doctrinal support that continues as part of our church because millions of people are willing to simultaneously claim reliance on revelation and also believe every stupid little thing anyone in authority ever says without ever questioning whether there’s even an allegation of divine direction.

Just imagine how much stupid garbage in the Church we could eliminate just by refusing to believe in or follow any instruction not accompanied by a citation to an actual revelation. “You have to wear Church-made underwear” is such a ridiculous, oppressive, and obviously wrong thing that it should surprise no one to learn that – in a church that prides itself on being the recipient of ongoing revelation and divine guidance – there is not even an ALLEGATION that that particular dogma actually came from God at all.
This was from a 2013 post on bycommonconsent.com entitled "Female Garments: The Underwear Business"
I can almost understand why this guy is no longer an active Bishop. I got such an uncomfortable feeling reading what he wrote.

Heth
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Heth »

Matchmaker - it seems to me this Bishop is not inactive but rather a former bishop still active in the Church. And I agree with his statement. Sometimes we do stuff because we feel it's unquestionably right but in reality, there is barely any info on how we got to our current ideas about our garments. I think the more information, the better, and that will lead to a more fulfilling and healthy relationship with garnent wearing in general.

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kittycat51
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by kittycat51 »

Heth wrote: June 11th, 2017, 11:11 pm Matchmaker - it seems to me this Bishop is not inactive but rather a former bishop still active in the Church. And I agree with his statement. Sometimes we do stuff because we feel it's unquestionably right but in reality, there is barely any info on how we got to our current ideas about our garments. I think the more information, the better, and that will lead to a more fulfilling and healthy relationship with garnent wearing in general.
I (and we all should who have entered therein) take serious everything that takes place in the temple and associated with those sacred ordinances, this includes the wearing of the temple garment. All you have to do is listen to the very ending of washing and anointings and you will hear all the reasoning in the world why we should be faithful in wearing our garments. They are a vital part of me, and I don't wear garments just to be wearing garments. I would feel rather naked without them...no pun intended.

My father has been a temple sealing for over 30 years. He hears a many fussing mother over their soon to be married daughter that "don't worry dear after the ceremony you won't have to wear the garments". This makes my blood boil. X(

As far as this former bishops still being active, just because he was a bishop doesn't make his views on the topic correct. Many have fallen on the wayside in their thinking, including bishops.

SunriseBoy
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by SunriseBoy »

Garments ought to be worn with the diligence, reverence and humility to demonstrate the wearer's intent indeed and in their heart, as to the purpose the Creator meant, when he provided them for Adam and Eve, early in the piece.
Don't choke on the small stuff. Take counsel from the General Authorities, pray, pay your tithing, remember the poor, the sick, the mentally and physically handicapped and the elderly, the frail, and the homeless. Don't choke to death on the jots and tittles!

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

And in a letter to priesthood leaders dated 10 October 1988, the First Presidency made the following important statements regarding how the garment should be worn:

“Church members who have been clothed with the garment in the temple have made a covenant to wear it throughout their lives. This has been interpreted to mean that it is worn as underclothing both day and night. This sacred covenant is between the member and the Lord. Members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves any personal questions about the wearing of the garment. … The promise of protection and blessings is conditioned upon worthiness and faithfulness in keeping the covenant.

“The fundamental principle ought to be to wear the garment and not to find occasions to remove it. Thus, members should not remove either all or part of the garment to work in the yard or to lounge around the home in swimwear or immodest clothing. Nor should they remove it to participate in recreational activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath regular clothing. When the garment must be removed, such as for swimming, it should be restored as soon as possible.

“The principles of modesty and keeping the body appropriately covered are implicit in the covenant and should govern the nature of all clothing worn. Endowed members of the Church wear the garment as a reminder of the sacred covenants they have made with the Lord and also as a protection against temptation and evil. How it is worn is an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow the Savior.” 6

Here's your revelation given! If it comes from the First Presidency who are Apostles, seers, and REVELATORS then yes this is revelation and they clearly state how the garment should be worn.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: September 29th, 2017, 7:32 pm And in a letter to priesthood leaders dated 10 October 1988, the First Presidency made the following important statements regarding how the garment should be worn:

“Church members who have been clothed with the garment in the temple have made a covenant to wear it throughout their lives. This has been interpreted to mean that it is worn as underclothing both day and night. This sacred covenant is between the member and the Lord. Members should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves any personal questions about the wearing of the garment. … The promise of protection and blessings is conditioned upon worthiness and faithfulness in keeping the covenant. (modesty is also a cultural teaching that is NOT necessarily a reflection of someones chastity or motives, but we struggle to acknowledge this too).

“The fundamental principle ought to be to wear the garment and not to find occasions to remove it. Thus, members should not remove either all or part of the garment to work in the yard or to lounge around the home in swimwear or immodest clothing. Nor should they remove it to participate in recreational activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath regular clothing. When the garment must be removed, such as for swimming, it should be restored as soon as possible.

“The principles of modesty and keeping the body appropriately covered are implicit in the covenant and should govern the nature of all clothing worn. Endowed members of the Church wear the garment as a reminder of the sacred covenants they have made with the Lord and also as a protection against temptation and evil. How it is worn is an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow the Savior.” 6

Here's your revelation given! If it comes from the First Presidency who are Apostles, seers, and REVELATORS then yes this is revelation and they clearly state how the garment should be worn.
The church routinely changes it's position on the wearing of the garment and it's meaning...If you take the time to study records and teachings in journal of discourses and outside resources of the saints up until the present, you will find that "how" the garment is worn is a cultural teaching...and that the "protection" it provides is now being referred to by the church mostly spiritually (refer to an LDSliving.com article posted a little over a week ago).

The garment represent Covenants that one makes between the individual and the Lord....it's the keeping of theses covenants that provides the spiritual and physical protection from the destroyer NOT how one wears the garment. And the wearing of the garment is NOT NECESSARILY a reflection of whether or not someone keeps these covenants--Just as the wearing of a wedding ring is not a reflection necessarily of faithfulness.

If you do not keep the covenants, but wear the garment day and night, you do not have the promise associated with the covenant. If you do keep the covenants you made...you have the promise of spiritual protection REGARDLESS of whether or not you wear the physical cloth garment day and night (this is something the church will not necessarily acknowledge). The garment is merely a symbol. The symbol is not greater than the covenant. Just as the symbol of the temple is not greater than the family unit. Just as Christ said to the Jews who would not acknowledge Him in the temple, that "one who is greater than the temple" was standing there. No amount of temple attendance/work will save a family if an individual has failed to minister to and save the relationships he is already given. Just as with the garment...the covenants are holy...not the cloth itself. We should not worship symbols, but become what the symbol teaches. Ordinances are "types and shadows and patterns".....not the "power" itself. The garment is instruction. PERIOD.

Use your common sense...is it true that the outward practice of a symbol gives power to an individual?...or is it the spiritual practice of a symbol that gives the individual power (did Christ's wearing of his garment give the garment power....OR Did his "becoming" of this symbol give Him power? The individual becomes "clothed with power" So much so that anything HE touches OR that touches HIM has power.... this is why people could be healed by a handkerchief that the apostle Paul carried on his person (joseph smith gave out handkerchiefs to the sick). You can give an outward physical symbol power, but that doesn't mean that the physical wearing of a symbol gives you power....You could also just carry around a bunch of handkerchiefs and pass them out :)....We've got to stop practicing religion like Pharisees....The problem is...when we do Stop...You will see a great sifting of "wheat" and "tares" which is why we, as a church, hesitate to do this. What is truth?????
Last edited by TrueIntent on September 30th, 2017, 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

BTW, the brethren receive revelation for the church...NOT individuals. The body of the church usually moves at a slower rate in understanding than those who are willing to seek and ask themselves (this is the pattern in scripture and the history of the church). When we start seeking and asking as a body...the brethren will begin teaching it. It's the old ship zion right?? Are we willing to begin asking questions that may require us to repent of an old belief for more understanding. We know that there are differently levels of knowledge and understanding. ...if we aren't Zion now, what do we need to do to become Zion? How do we usher in His coming? Those are questions we should be willing to ask as individuals....the body of the church may need to "wear the garment day an night"....but that is not a reflection of righteousness, or wisdom, or knowledge....The scriptures teach a different understanding. When are we going to turn back to God? When are we going to face Him?

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

We are specifically told in the instruction of how we should wear the garment. Just recently as I was renewing my temple recommend the counselor in the stake presidency read me a letter from the First Presideny re iterating that we should wear the garment day and night and then re asked the question if I was wearing my garments as told me from when I received them. I highly doubt the Lord is going to tell you it's ok to not wear them when it's given as a revelation through the first presidency of how we should wear them. You aren't keeping your covenants if you aren't wearing the garment properly. Part of the covenants you make is a physical symbol- yes it's part of it- of wearing the garment. You can't pick and choose. I do agree with you in saying if you aren't keeping your covenants then the garment essentially means nothing. But you are wrong in saying you can keep your covenants and not wear the garment because they go hand in hand. And it's not like the Pharisees because no one can see when I wear my garments as opposed to when they had ash on their face when they were fasting. The Lord tell us he won't be mocked and not wearing the garment properly is becoming something that sadly a lot aren't taking seriously and yes it's the beginning of the sifting between the wheat and tares. They haven't changed their stance on garment wearing since Joseph Smith organized fullness of the restoration of the gospel. They may have changed clothing styles but not the proper wearing of it.
Last edited by Cc07 on September 30th, 2017, 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

Cc07 wrote: September 30th, 2017, 1:51 pm We are specifically told in the instruction of how we should wear the garment. Just recently as I was renewing my temple recommend the counselor in the stake presidency read me a letter from the First Presideny re iterating that we should wear the garment day and night and then re asked the question if I was wearing my garments as told me from when I received them. I highly doubt the Lord is going to tell you it's ok to not wear them when it's given as a revelation through the first presidency of how we should wear them. You aren't keeping your covenants if you aren't wearing the garment properly. Part of the covenants you make is a physical symbol- yes it's part of it- of wearing the garment. You can't pick and choose. I do agree with you in saying if you aren't keeping your covenants then the garment essentially means nothing. But you are wrong in saying you can keep your covenants and not wear the garment because they go hand in hand. And it's not like the Pharisees because no one can see when I wear my garments as opposed to when they had ash on their face when they were fasting. The Lord tell us he won't be mocked and not wearing the garment properly is becoming something that sadly a lot aren't taking seriously and yes it's the beginning of the sifting between the wheat and tares. They haven't changed their stance on garment wearing since Joseph Smith organized fullness of the restoration of the gospel. They may have changed clothing styles but not the proper wearing of it.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: September 30th, 2017, 1:51 pm We are specifically told in the instruction of how we should wear the garment. Just recently as I was renewing my temple recommend the counselor in the stake presidency read me a letter from the First Presideny re iterating that we should wear the garment day and night and then re asked the question if I was wearing my garments as told me from when I received them. I highly doubt the Lord is going to tell you it's ok to not wear them when it's given as a revelation through the first presidency of how we should wear them. You aren't keeping your covenants if you aren't wearing the garment properly. Part of the covenants you make is a physical symbol- yes it's part of it- of wearing the garment. You can't pick and choose. I do agree with you in saying if you aren't keeping your covenants then the garment essentially means nothing. But you are wrong in saying you can keep your covenants and not wear the garment because they go hand in hand. And it's not like the Pharisees because no one can see when I wear my garments as opposed to when they had ash on their face when they were fasting. The Lord tell us he won't be mocked and not wearing the garment properly is becoming something that sadly a lot aren't taking seriously and yes it's the beginning of the sifting between the wheat and tares. They haven't changed their stance on garment wearing since Joseph Smith organized fullness of the restoration of the gospel. They may have changed clothing styles but not the proper wearing of it.
I hear what you are saying. And you are ignorant of truth. The church has changed the wearing of the garment many times. Joseph Smith was the one who taught that it was appropriate to remove it if an individual was hot...it was symbolic of a brotherhood he was trying to teach...in the school of the prophets. Joseph and Hyrum both were NOT wearing their garments when they were martyred. Joseph Smith specifically counciled the brothers not to wear the garment at times. Brigham young, on the contrary, taught that the garment should not be removed even while bathing, one pant leg of the garment should be lifted at a time, to put your leg in the water for bathing. Joseph taught the original full length garment was never to be altered....we have altered it many times since then to accomodate changing clothing styles...and yet, we counsel the members not to alter theirs to accommodate clothing styles.

You should also study the history of our handbooks...Handbooks do not equal scripture....they reflect policy, customs, and "principles" of the church....WHICH ARE NOT DOCTRINE...a doctrine does not change...a principle is interpreted by the church, and frequently changes with culture which is why the individual should be left to decided.. in my opinion, the question of "how" the garment is worn is not appropriate for judging an individuals worthiness, and is not an appropriate question of the temple recommend. You should also study the history of the temple recommend questions....those have frequently changed based on culture. You will find that people used to be asked whether or not they stole and branded another man's cattle. A statement about having "oral sex" used to be read during a temple recommend, because the church did not believe members should have oral sex. Many of the younger generation would freak out if they knew that we used to read the "oral sex" statement. We have removed the statement....Culture rules the questions...not scripture, not doctrine.

The garment is also instructed differently in the temple, they used to say bra's over, now they say bra's under are okay. Cultural teachings not based in truth. The garment is a symbol....where in scripture do you find Christ teaching us to wear symbols to show we follow him, instead of teaching us to be the spiritual version of the symbol?????? Were the disciples supposed to administer bread and wine, or were they supposed to teach how to become the spiritual version of the bread and wine. You should also study ancient customs of the pharisees and how they were instruction by "oral teachings" to wear their garment. They were instructed to wear theirs 364 days per year, minus a holiday where they can remove it. When you can present a compelling case, I will listen to what you teach. We should question our "messengers"....just like the temple video instructs. Remember, Adam had two people trying to instruct him. We are trying to root out satan from our midst. But we are going to have to use our brains and hearts to do so.

THE LORD WILL NOT BE MOCKED...we mock him when we label false teachings to him. The question is...what is truth...do we assign something to God that he never required in the first place. BUT WHEN WE FINALLY understand truth, will we choose to act on it. You should study the history of the ordinances....in earlier versions of the actual endowment, we used to say, wear day and night...now it says, throughout ones life...which is it. there is definitely different meaning there. What is truth, and the bigger question is, will you acknowledge it? and the even bigger question is...will you act on it? Faith is a principle of action...is it not??

Listen, I don't think it's bad if you want to wear it day and night, But it's also not bad if someone doesn't want to. And people shouldn't be "cast out of a synagogue" to do so. I used to be a lot more judgmental about how people wore the garment, because I was doing everything I could to wear it perfectly--so i judged other people by my standards.... until I understood what the garment really meant. How you wear is a personal choice. The "garment" will reflect in your countenance if you are wearing the one God truly wants us to wear. And yes....all this matters if we want to become Zion some day. And yes, the teachings in the handbook are wrong on this. It's a handbook....when someone shows me a revealed revelation on the garment that I can parallel to two or three witnesses (i.e. the book of mormon, and new testament, and old testament.) ....I'll listen. Prophets make mistakes...you can find that all over scripture, and even in some recent conference talks. WE have taught a lot of stuff in the LDS church...it's time to start sifting through and finding what is truth.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

I think the next question you should ask....What do does the garment mean, what do the symbols mean, what covenants are made? And do you keep these covenants? If you can't answer this off the top of your head...you don't understand the garment anyway, and you wear it to "fit in"? Knowing the symbols does not mean you made a covenant, repeating the words you say in the temple doesn't mean you made the covenant either.

The next question I would ask you, is what covenants have you made in your life with God, and Have you kept them? (this is what we would ask the gentiles as well who don't attend the temple)....Anyway...you will find that mormons and non-mormons alike have made the same covenants often times, AND received a spiritual witness of it. So are they any less worthy than us because they don't wear a garment day and night? Paul asked the same question in reference to circumcision as a practice.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

TrueIntent wrote: September 30th, 2017, 3:03 pm I think the next question you should ask....What do does the garment mean, what do the symbols mean, what covenants are made? And do you keep these covenants? If you can't answer this off the top of your head...you don't understand the garment anyway, and you wear it to "fit in"? Knowing the symbols does not mean you made a covenant, repeating the words you say in the temple doesn't mean you made the covenant either.

The next question I would ask you, is what covenants have you made in your life with God, and Have you kept them? (this is what we would ask the gentiles as well who don't attend the temple)....Anyway...you will find that mormons and non-mormons alike have made the same covenants often times, AND received a spiritual witness of it. So are they any less worthy than us because they don't wear a garment day and night? Paul asked the same question in reference to circumcision as a practice.
Sorry...wearing it to fit in may be to harsh of a statement....you may be wearing it based on the "testimony" of others who say that it will produce certain results if you "wear it this way or that"......But if a testimony is true FOR YOU...it will produce the same results. That does not mean that it is true in all cases. You may need to wear the garment, because you don't believe in the power of the spirit it self to produce the same miracle. Joseph Smith started out using a seer stone, and then just started receiving revelation directly. Hopefully that clarifies...I don't mean to be insulting. Christ never required sacrifice....to get to a place where you believe that...you may have to sacrifice all. Then you believe. It's an interesting concept.

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

I know what the symbols of the garment are and what they mean- I also know they are one with the covenants we make in the temple. They go hand in hand. They are one in the same. I have a testimony in and of the Prophets and Apostles and I know they are mouthpieces of the Lord. So no- I do not think they are wrong on this matter. Yes- it may be "instruction" but isn't all commandments just instruction?! We are given agency to choose if we want to follow these "instructions" or not but we will have consequences for them. I think many and a lot of what you are saying is justification and procrastination. I do not wear the garment to fit in. I wear it because of the covenants I made and I will do everything in my power to keep those covenants and yes wearing the garment is part of the covenants that are made. Something's really are black and white and this is one of them!

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

And I do not appreciate you telling me to use my common sense and that I'm ignorant of truth. My feelings and beliefs on this matter are coming from Heavenly Father and Prophets and Apostles and personal study and prayer. So if you want to say that the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this matter that is on you. But it definitely doesn't make me ignorant of truth. We are told what we are told- take it or leave it but don't tell someone else who is striving to follow the teachings and TRUTH that they are wrong.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by TrueIntent »

Cc07 wrote: September 30th, 2017, 4:01 pm And I do not appreciate you telling me to use my common sense and that I'm ignorant of truth. My feelings and beliefs on this matter are coming from Heavenly Father and Prophets and Apostles and personal study and prayer. So if you want to say that the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this matter that is on you. But it definitely doesn't make me ignorant of truth. We are told what we are told- take it or leave it but don't tell someone else who is striving to follow the teachings and TRUTH that they are wrong.
My feelings and understanding also comes from heavenly father, prophets and apostles, and the scriptures.. and trust me...deep prayer. I don't take my seeking for and answer to any of this lightly. I was speaking in general about membership and the common sense comment, not necessarily to you unless you feel like you fit that category. Members should use common sense. You were the one who claimed that the wearing of the garment had never been changed. So yes, you were ignorant of that truth...Is it okay to correct someone when they are in error?. You can believe what you want...but now you have the information. This is what the forum is for. To freely debate and discuss...hopefully so that we can be aware of higher truth. and Yes, It is on me to claim they (prophets and apostles are wrong on this issue, but they have been right one many others). They are men--who yes, are leading the church. But they are men-who are flesh and will err in understanding. Christ was the restorer of truth...NOT US. And the church moves slower than those who are willing to seek and ask questions on their own (my bishop and stake president gave me that example about the slow moving ship when I first came to them with some of this information...what do you say about that?)

I love the church...I was born in the church, but if I had to start all over and choose one, it would still be this one. Trust me, I don't have all the answers...i would like for someone to give me new information that I haven't studied on these topics. Most people haven't truly studied. Most people just regurgitate what they have been told...which is fine for a time.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Cc07 wrote: September 30th, 2017, 3:55 pm I know what the symbols of the garment are and what they mean- I also know they are one with the covenants we make in the temple. They go hand in hand. They are one in the same. I have a testimony in and of the Prophets and Apostles and I know they are mouthpieces of the Lord. So no- I do not think they are wrong on this matter. Yes- it may be "instruction" but isn't all commandments just instruction?! We are given agency to choose if we want to follow these "instructions" or not but we will have consequences for them. I think many and a lot of what you are saying is justification and procrastination. I do not wear the garment to fit in. I wear it because of the covenants I made and I will do everything in my power to keep those covenants and yes wearing the garment is part of the covenants that are made. Something's really are black and white and this is one of them!

Youre right...we do have agency. Yes, commandments are instructions. HOWEVER, all commandments are clearly spelled out in scripture (by the mouth of two or three witnesses)--the wearing of the garment according to the handbook is not a commandment...even the temple ordinances are altered based on what our scriptural understanding is...why do you think we no longer "slit our throats" in a blood oath in the temple. Brigham "corrected" the ordinances as far as he correctly understood them. You should study Christ's criticisms of the pharisees and how they wore their phylacteries and tellifin.

It's fine for you to do what you want...but you can't judge others by that same standard (which is what you are doing when you post instruction from the brethren)...they are supposed to administer the law..period, they are not enforcers. I like the phrase, don't judge me just because you sin differently than i do....Adding to that, I think one of the sins in mormonism, is that we accuse others of sinning where there is no sin in the first place simply because we follow "handbook guidelines" differently than they do. NO ONE wears the garment night and day, or according to the handbook. NO ONE...gets their garments back on as quickly as they can before they get home from swimming, you just interpret that YOUR way is okay, and someone else isn't....Do you run into a bathroom, or pullover at the first gas station to change into your garments...NOPE...you can't judge others for not following the handbook, while not doing it yourself. The flaw in the law, as the apostle paul taught...NO ONE keeps the law. Christ taught this. So as you post instructions from the brethren...make sure you follow it completely within your power and understanding of it. Im not telling anyone to not wear the garment...im just saying it's not necessary....christ says, that he does not require sacrifice. His is a gospel of faith and action...not sacrifice

The pharisees had "oral tradition" which was their own interpretations that they added to the laws-- which is why the Jews couldn't recognize Christ when he came. His own people couldn't recognize him because they worshiped culture. You should study oral tradition.....it is the pharisees leaders who interpreted the meaning of the commandments and the law. Christ then came, and corrected them all. The people got lost in culture vs scripture. I don't care what you personally believe or what you do, but if you will study...you will find that a mouth piece does not mean blind followers. Joseph smith and Brigham young criticized blind following of the membership. The truth is...we are all supposed to be seeking personal revelation on all the things we are taught. Most people are afraid to go against the grain.

In the last two years, the church has changed position heavily on many topics. The word of wisdom had been a hard fast rule since I was born. Then the truth comes out linked with scripture "not by commandment or constraint"....then, on LDSliving in the last month, there was an article that stated that much of what is in the word of wisdom is left up to individual interpretation (while also still trying to justify why we micro-manage). So, i have seen the dangers of substance abuse, alcohol etc...but you can't keep people out of the temple for that, and not be acting in hypocrisy for those who are addicted to sugar and are morbidly obese. All of us has weaknesses, the church just picks and chooses by outward judging what weaknesses we are willing to tolerate. Which is why, if we truly believe principles and interpretation is left up to the individual...then it should be left up to the individual. Does an individual feel worthy? it is not meet that HE should command in all things.

There is a point behind all the stuff we do....we should find it. Find the "mark".

1 For the alaw having a bshadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered cyear by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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At the end of the day, I know why I believe what I believe.....and you claim the same thing also....But will you love me and respect me as a follower of Jesus christ equally with you, even though we believe differently? Im speaking collectively....can you accept others fully who will interpret things differently than you based on their own understanding. I accept yours...and I accept you are doing your best. Will you accept that I am doing my best and accept me as your equal?

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

Post by Cc07 »

I absolutely accept you as my equal- I'm not judging those who don't wear their garments as to how it's given in the instruction of how to wear them. If you feel comfortable saying the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this issue than that's on you. I believe in continuing revelation and progression and I'm going to follow their advice and council on this matter as I believe they speak for the Lord! Obviously we know we can't wear them all the time as circumstances don't allow it. But other than that it's pretty black and white as to how we should wear them and ultimately it's a recommend question and if you feel like you can answer that question truthfully is up to the individual. I know many women who aren't wearing them and they ultimately say they aren't because they don't want to and they own up to it it that they just don't want to. And I give them mad respect for owning up to it rather than justify their reasonings. If everyone understood the significance of wearing the garment I believe people would take it more seriously and wear them! ✌🏻

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Cc07 wrote: September 30th, 2017, 5:27 pm I absolutely accept you as my equal- I'm not judging those who don't wear their garments as to how it's given in the instruction of how to wear them. If you feel comfortable saying the Prophets and Apostles are wrong on this issue than that's on you. I believe in continuing revelation and progression and I'm going to follow their advice and council on this matter as I believe they speak for the Lord! Obviously we know we can't wear them all the time as circumstances don't allow it. But other than that it's pretty black and white as to how we should wear them and ultimately it's a recommend question and if you feel like you can answer that question truthfully is up to the individual. I know many women who aren't wearing them and they ultimately say they aren't because they don't want to and they own up to it it that they just don't want to. And I give them mad respect for owning up to it rather than justify their reasonings. If everyone understood the significance of wearing the garment I believe people would take it more seriously and wear them! ✌🏻
Thank you. I believe in continuing revelation as well (sometimes the leadership is informed on inconsistencies in teachings just like the rest of us find out and you will find that they leader rely heavily on historians and committees to help them interpret information) ..im hoping we change the inflexibility described in the handbook not just on the garment..but clearly label church function and policy. .We would experience less hypocrisy in the church if we built from the scriptures as an inward practice to an outward). Many teachings surrounding the garment are based in teachings on modesty. We equate modesty with chastity, however modesty IS defined by culture, and Chastity is defined by god. It is not immodest for a woman to wear sleeveless clothing or shorts above the knee in our culture..as well as for the men. Its cultural. Remember, when Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith he was completely naked with an open robe. We can label ourselves, but we shouldn't label others. Cultural teachings are fine as long as we label them as cultural teachings...nor should these teachings reflect whether or not someone should enter the temple.

I am fully aware of how many members bend and break the rules...as I communicate openly why I am not wearing mine day and night because people ask me (I wear tank tops)..people are curious...everyone reveals they don't either ...they don't do it because "they don't think it's a big deal", and Im told not to take things so seriously (the person wearing the tank top gets told not to take it so literally in the handbooks and documents).

...so for me....the more I took to studying the garment and ordinances...I began believing differently...but it wasn't because the teachings didn't exist..it was because culture had hidden the truth and you had to dig to find it. The internet has brought everything to the surface for discussion.

I wish we would all be open about what we believe and why we believe it and WHY someone should devote their life to wearing something day and night instead of (is not secret its sacred, but we can't say why). The reason this topic tends to bother me personally is because I get judged for what I believe frequently, while others do it in secret and based on their beliefs...they lie in the temple and defile it...based on mine i keep it holy, but Im not bending any rules, but I also don't have a temple recommend at the moment. Im not trying to bend rules...Im good at following rules..what I am not good at is doing things I don't believe in.

...Im open to discussion, but I have read everything the church has put out on the issue...including the common phrase of "it's an outward expression of an inward commitment"...that does not answer WHY doctrinally or scripturally one must follow the handbook to enter the temple. AND nobody goes through the temple the first time and makes those covenants that day having never heard them until that moment. We repeat it, but it doesnt mean we made the covenant. We wear the garment day and night, but it doesn't mean we actually "wear" the real garment...nor is it required. The teachings related to circumscion in the new testament are very similar to this issue. These are symbols. Is there somewhere in scripture that I am missing that the High Priesthood will require a special physical clothing and that their priesthood won't work without their special clothing????? There is a symbolic clothing... But physical?

..if that is a true statement, then we should be judging everyone by their outward expressions.....I just dont believe thats entirely true. We have a lot of sometimes true things that we claim are all true. Maybe under the Law of Moses, but not Under the Law of Christ. I believe in the teaching of symbolic ordinances...but not as an outward manifestation of worthiness based on works...I believe this because of the scriptures and because of the witnesses I have received that match up with this. HOWEVER....it took me practicing heavily on my works to realize my works would not save me, and that nothing i could do of myself saves me. There is purpose in it all. An interesting story in the New Testament, is where Paul gets kicked out of the temple by the Jews, they want him to get hauled off by the Romans for not be "worthy" because of his non-practice of the law to enter the temple. But then he bears his testimony, which in spirit, is similar to mine......and Yet...they still cast him out.

...as Ive sought to ask why myself, I don't wear it day and night, but not because of laziness or because I break rules...it's because the teaching conflicts with my conscience. I don't believe in outward works like I once did as a representation of my faithfulness to God. ...it was once i dropped the practice of believing that "what I did in the form of a works" defined my worthiness with God was that I started receiving my own witnesses (so maybe the church requires worthiness standards that God doesnt, and this may be the case).

I have adopted an experimentation of Faith first, then followed by acting on that faith, that I received my own witness (and I wasn't even asking for them, I was just following the spirit in those moments I made the covenants). Anyway...i started comprehended things I never had before after that. I am more than happy to change my position, if someone has better instruction. I learn best from the scripture combined with early church teachings on the subject after praying, pondering and asking. We don't teach from the scriptures very much any more at church...We teach frequently from conference talks..which maybe good for the general membership, but it doesnt answer my questions. Im trying to understand why we contradict scripture.

Cc07
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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I think it's great you are open to and willing to discuss your reasonings behind not wearing the garment. You keep referencing and talking about scripture which is great but it was before the restoration of the fullness of the gospel. As much as I believe in teachings of past prophets- clear back to Adam. We need to rely also on the teachings of our current prophet for he is the one who is receiving current revelation from the Lord. Their are also the Apostles and they have most recently talked about they way they decide on update policy and I'm referring to the decision of kids being raised in homosexual relations can't get baptized until they are 18- but they've talked about how they all prayed about the decision and what the Lord would have them do and they all came to the same conclusion. It's because Apostles are also Prophets. I'm not concerned with what they did concerning the garment in biblical times nor am I concerned with how they did 100 years ago- what matters is what the Lord wants us to do NOW. That's where the faith comes in that you are talking about. We may not know exactly why it is that we need to wear them the way they've asked. But I personally think it's a blessing for us. Just like paying tithing, or good works, or keeping the word of wisdom. Or any other thing that if you follow their are blessings involved. They're also a reminder of the covenants we've made. Do I think sleeveless Tops and short above the knee are immodest- no I do not. Am I saying I wouldn't ever want to wear that- no I'm not. But I wear the garment having faith that it's what the Lord has asked and I made a covenant with Him that I would. Do I fully understand everything- no. But something's we aren't going to receive the answer right now. And yes even that answer of it's an outward expression of an inward commitment is enough for me. I have a definite testimony of this and I hope someday you can get an answer of why it is we are asked to wear them and I truly hope you can get your temple recommend renewed and enjoy the blessings that come from attending the temple!

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TrueIntent
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Re: Question about garments-Ladies only please

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Cc07 wrote: September 30th, 2017, 8:22 pm I think it's great you are open to and willing to discuss your reasonings behind not wearing the garment. You keep referencing and talking about scripture which is great but it was before the restoration of the fullness of the gospel. As much as I believe in teachings of past prophets- clear back to Adam. We need to rely also on the teachings of our current prophet for he is the one who is receiving current revelation from the Lord. Their are also the Apostles and they have most recently talked about they way they decide on update policy and I'm referring to the decision of kids being raised in homosexual relations can't get baptized until they are 18- but they've talked about how they all prayed about the decision and what the Lord would have them do and they all came to the same conclusion. It's because Apostles are also Prophets. I'm not concerned with what they did concerning the garment in biblical times nor am I concerned with how they did 100 years ago- what matters is what the Lord wants us to do NOW. That's where the faith comes in that you are talking about. We may not know exactly why it is that we need to wear them the way they've asked. But I personally think it's a blessing for us. Just like paying tithing, or good works, or keeping the word of wisdom. Or any other thing that if you follow their are blessings involved. They're also a reminder of the covenants we've made. Do I think sleeveless Tops and short above the knee are immodest- no I do not. Am I saying I wouldn't ever want to wear that- no I'm not. But I wear the garment having faith that it's what the Lord has asked and I made a covenant with Him that I would. Do I fully understand everything- no. But something's we aren't going to receive the answer right now. And yes even that answer of it's an outward expression of an inward commitment is enough for me. I have a definite testimony of this and I hope someday you can get an answer of why it is we are asked to wear them and I truly hope you can get your temple recommend renewed and enjoy the blessings that come from attending the temple!
Thank you, I appreciate that. I don't think I agree with the statement that current prophets supersede old teachings. What I have found is that the teachings in the early church do not contradict the new testament....it's our additions to them that do. We contradict Jesus Christ's teachings....otherwise we have no need for the book of mormon or the new testament or the old--we could just follow modern day revelation. But that is not true. This is how joseph smith knew to ask God in the first place--by studying the bible...he said they had many interpretations for the same scripture, which we also have done in our own church.

The book of mormon is a third witness that clarifies what it all meant in the first place. I don't think it's possible to make a covenant with the Lord unless you fully know what you are doing it for......What Im trying to say, is that I received a spiritual witness when I actually made the covenant. You know when you've made a covenant, and you know why....recieving an ordinance is just receiving instruction on HOW to make the covenant. Meaning if you don't understand...you should ask...because you probably haven't actually made the covenant. You just repeated a bunch of words and raised your arm to the square. Im not saying you have to understand the ordinances in full....what Im saying is....I KNOW without a doubt the moment in prayer and in my life I made those covenants (and the ceremony just paralleled my desire to do so...it told me I was on the path)...and it wasn't all on the same day in the temple. Each experience was an emotionally outpouring of my soul, and I received a witness...like when enos prayed all night long. I couldn't have had the same raw emotional state in the actually ceremony itself for me. I meant it when I made it.

You should be concerned with how they wore the garment in biblical times, and even how they paid tithes...Josephs smith was "RESTORING" the gospel of Jesus christ....this is the same Gospel the Children of Israel Practice in the old testament (they performed ordinances) up until Jesus hits the scene when they are supposed to accept Him...he is the living symbol. Its a restoration of all things...not a creation of new things or a new gospel that supersedes an old. Testament means "covenant" Old testament, New testament, the book of mormon is another testament...or covenant.

You are confusing policy with commandments/qualifications that allow an individual to exercise the power of the holy priesthood and commune with God directly...Why do you think we stand at the veil, holding the hand of god, and then....the veil parts and we enter into his presence. You are practicing a version of the temple ceremony, and a garment that Joseph Smith restored....of course it matters. This is what Moses was teaching...how to part the veil and speak with God face to face. This is the part that I don't understand...Why don't members want to know????? We claim the power of the HOLY Priesthood...THE power to raise the dead, Heal the sick, and the power to resurrect, and we don't want to understand what the symbols mean and WHY we do what we do...we don't want to separate fact from fiction, culture from scripture???? I for one, if this power is real, want to understand it and access it...I want to believe in it with all my heart. I want to heal the sick, raise the dead, and let the resurrection begin so we can reunite with those we lost.

I don't think you understand the pattern of the gospel in scripture...there were men of renown..."Noble and great ones"...Adam , moses, Abraham Issac...jsoeph smith was compared to a moses....and jesus Christ...they were all practicing the same gospel. We don't practice a different gospel than them...or a higher one than them. It's the same...Jesus Christ just explained what all the laws and ordinances meant..He was the literally fulfilling of it.

The scriptures just communicate the path men like ADAM took to finding it, trust me...modern day prophets are not greater than Noah or Moses...only Joseph Smith was compared to Moses, but current leaders greater than Adam our father?? No. ....some men sinned along the way. As did Adam and Eve. Faith isn't having faith in men....its being willing to experiment on the word. The Word IS jesus christ in the flesh (according to scripture). So, sure....get a testimony of whatever you need to, but one has to be willing to experiment on their own at some point. The path to God is individual...which is why we all walk through the temple ceremony, into the celestial room.

Thats true for you about just believing without asking...I believe for most members they don't need to know why they do something (that is not necessarily a good thing, but if it makes you happy then do it). But Joseph didn't know something and so He asked. The ordinances teach something that allows an individual to access real power from heaven...the HOLY Priesthood. People feel safe following other people until they follow council that hinders their progression in some way, or they have their trust violated. So, then you are faced with...maybe I should ask God myself.

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