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Juliet
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Juliet »

I was shown that everybody always gets to progress, but some people it takes thousands of years. Coming to earth speeds up progression exponentially. Read D&C 19, I think that is the chapter that explains that God's punishment actually does end, but it is a mystery because it is written Endless or Eternal punishment, because God's name is Endless and Eternal, so instead of saying they will be in outer darkness for eternity, it is really saying they will endure "God's punishment". What loving God condemns His children on purpose? Everything God does is to help us repent so we can progress.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Robin Hood »

Those who become sons of perdition will remain in that condition in my view, because they have no interest in changing. They will insist on continuing to be a big fish in a small pond.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by oneClimbs »

There's one judge, let's leave judgement to him.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by oneClimbs »

CelestialAngel wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 5:11 pm That's what I like to hear. Only the 1 judge knows a person's heart, circumstances, brain, etc at time of sin and whether they truly are sorry. I like to think of the Lord as someone that tries to look for every loophole to save us and some people view the other way that He looks for any reason of sin to condemn us. To those people I say open your heart to full unconditional love for everyone and you truly get a different perspective on life. I'm trying that right now.
I don't think you can follow Christ without a hope that every soul receives salvation. Whether that salvation comes to people or not is up to them and God. But can you possess the mind of Christ and have a hope that someone is denied salvation.

Here's a little test. Would you like to see Adolf Hitler in the Celestial Kingdom? Let's say that he was deceived in this life and could not see the evil he was committing. Let's say he was forgiven and sorely repented and the Lord pronounced him clean and welcomed him in. Would you? Could you embrace him? Could you even now hold out hope that the most vile of sinners (as were Alma and the sons of Mosiah) in this would could be clean and enjoy eternal life alongside you?

If one cannot, then how can one imagine Jesus wanting to spend a second with them when one considers the dark sins of their own past? Yet we all hope that Jesus will embrace us with loving arms. Remember the parable of the ungrateful servant.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Robin Hood »

CelestialAngel wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 4:45 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 4:34 pm Those who become sons of perdition will remain in that condition in my view, because they have no interest in changing. They will insist on continuing to be a big fish in a small pond.
But what I'm saying is who are we to consider ourselves judges of someone's soul and say "this person" is a son of perdition. Only The Lord can judge. You are not the Lord.
I wasn't judging anyone.
Christ himself called Judas a son of perdition.
His judgement, not mine.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Seek the Truth »

its not up to us.

Dave62
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Dave62 »

I think the key here is the concept of rebellious pride. Those who are consigned to outer darkness wil have chosen to go there because they have completely rejected the Grace of Jesus. They will understand it, they will know it is there for them to freely partake but they will wholeheartedly reject it. I have met people like that, only a very few, a couple maybe, but they do exist. They carry with themselves an almost tangible darkness. They would not even cope with the glory of the Telestial world. They are only happy in the misery of thenselves and as many of people as they can destroy themselves. And, yes, all of them have been former LDS. :(

Z2100
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Z2100 »

CelestialAngel wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 2:18 pm Most LDS ASSUME Cain and Judas are doomed to Outer Darkness because of what they did, but I always thought Outer Darkness is only reserved for the unremorseful, those that don't feel guilt for what they did. In mortality, both Cain and Judas showed what appears to be remorse. God actually protected Cain by putting a cover on him and changing his appearance so no one would kill him. Would God really do that with someone going to Outer Darkness and Perdition? Judas immediately felt regret after betraying Jesus so much that he couldn't live any longer and hung himself. I always imagined someone destined for Outer Darkness would be happy after Jesus was betrayed and would be the first one to drive the nail into his hands. There's just something off to me about condemning people to Outer Darkness when we are not the judges of others' souls. The Lord is the true judge. David fell from his exaltation after he had Uriah killed, but he felt remorse and God did not give up on David and we assume David is not meant for Outer Darkness. The only ones I know for sure will be in Outer Darkness will be Satan and the 1/3 host from the war in heaven pre earth life, but I wouldn't want to condemn people who seem to realize what they've done and how wrong they were. Isn't that a part of repentance?

In the book “Doctrines of Salvation” Volume 2 or something, it says that Cain will “rule over Satan” because he became Perdition because he willingly succumbed to Satan in the flesh after he had been visited by angels and taught by his parents (Adam & Eve).

Z2100
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Z2100 »

Dave62 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 6:16 am I think the key here is the concept of rebellious pride. Those who are consigned to outer darkness wil have chosen to go there because they have completely rejected the Grace of Jesus. They will understand it, they will know it is there for them to freely partake but they will wholeheartedly reject it. I have met people like that, only a very few, a couple maybe, but they do exist. They carry with themselves an almost tangible darkness. They would not even cope with the glory of the Telestial world. They are only happy in the misery of thenselves and as many of people as they can destroy themselves. And, yes, all of them have been former LDS. :(
Anyone who sins against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven.

Z2100
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Z2100 »

CelestialAngel wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 12:02 pm
Z2100 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 11:16 am
Dave62 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 6:16 am I think the key here is the concept of rebellious pride. Those who are consigned to outer darkness wil have chosen to go there because they have completely rejected the Grace of Jesus. They will understand it, they will know it is there for them to freely partake but they will wholeheartedly reject it. I have met people like that, only a very few, a couple maybe, but they do exist. They carry with themselves an almost tangible darkness. They would not even cope with the glory of the Telestial world. They are only happy in the misery of thenselves and as many of people as they can destroy themselves. And, yes, all of them have been former LDS. :(
Anyone who sins against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven.
And how do you sin against the Holy Ghost exactly?
Are you joking?

Serragon
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Serragon »

This, to me, is a strange question. I'm not sure what eternal hope is.

I don't really have "hope" for Cain and Judas. They are no longer in a position to influence their salvation. Hoping seems to be irrelevant at this point.

If you are asking whether they can still be saved at some point then the answer is we simply don't know. We only know what has been revealed to us which is a miniscule portion of what exists.

From what has been revealed, it would appear that if the Lord has judged you a son of perdition, you are done. But it is probable that not all has been revealed. If this is our probationary state, it would be of little value to let everyone know that this isn't the final exam. I suspect many would stop studying.

I often wonder if excommunication is a type and shadow of being cast into outer darkness. If so, many conclusions can be drawn from that.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Robin Hood »

CelestialAngel wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 10:46 am
Robin Hood wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 12:40 am
CelestialAngel wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 4:45 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 4:34 pm Those who become sons of perdition will remain in that condition in my view, because they have no interest in changing. They will insist on continuing to be a big fish in a small pond.
But what I'm saying is who are we to consider ourselves judges of someone's soul and say "this person" is a son of perdition. Only The Lord can judge. You are not the Lord.
I wasn't judging anyone.
Christ himself called Judas a son of perdition.
His judgement, not mine.
Would a son of perdition feel remorse and hang themselves because they can't live with the guilt? That sounds like someone who realized what they did was wrong and felt bad for it. Sons of Perdition are the opposite.
Like I said, Jesus said Judas was a son of perdition.
I think that settles it.

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Red
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Red »

Judas was possessed by the devil in order to betray Christ.

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Red
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Red »

D&C 10:62-67
Luke 22:3
John 6:70
John 12:4 speaks of Judas as though he were destined to betray him. Judas WAS destined to betray him. It was Judas' role in this life to betray Christ, and because he chose this role, Christ still offered redemption to him. It was still a sacrifice for Judas to betray Christ. He committed suicide after the betrayal, out of guilt.

John 13:1 Christ loved his children until the end. No exceptions. This includes Judas. Christ will redeem Judas out of love.

John 13:2 Satan influenced Judas' betrayal. This is forgiven by Christ. It was part of the plan. Judas will be redeemed.

John 13 recounts Christ washing the feet of all 12 apostles, including Judas. He knew Judas would betray him yet he washed his feet. Christ says in vs 7 that what he is doing, his apostles do not yet understand (referring to washing the feet, which is symbolic for descending below all, sacrifice, humility, and other things) but they will soon understand. They do not yet realize the symbolism of the washing of the feet bc thy do not yet know that Judas betrayed Christ. He was giving them the example (v 10-16) that even those as wretched as Judas are worthy of love, compassion, grace, and salvation. They, we, are all worthy of Christ because he descended below in the great sacrifice because he loves us and he WANTS us to be in His kingdom. He wants Judas there. He loved him deeply.

John 13:18 is the key scripture that tells us that Judas was CHOSEN for this role, therefore he will not be cast away for fulfilling a role the Savior needed. Judas is saved. V 20 as layered meanings but it also refers to receiving the role of Judas, to accepting him as a role player and not rejecting him for what we perceive as wickedness, for it wasn't wickedness, but a plan. Christ knew what Judas would endure after the betrayal. He would endure guilt and sadness (remember, he was possessed by Satan in order to commit the betrayal) and rejection by others. It makes Christ's heart heavy to know that Judas would experience this. He warned his disciples that it would happen, but even so, Judas would become hated. Even now his reputation is marred, all because he ACCEPTED his role as traitor.

V 27 outlines the possession by Satan.

I think it's strange that we don't teach that Judas was possessed by the devil. This is the only thing that could make Judas betray Christ.

I know Judas is kept in the kingdom of our Father. I know it because I have a testimony of the grace of God. I don't have to prove Judas is acquitted, but I like to because it helps others to know that grace will keep them, that all can be overcome through faith in Christ. I think that even if Judas hadn't been driven by Satan, Christ would have still brought him into the kingdom of our Father. I believe this because I believe in grace. I believe God loves us in spite of all that we do and that he forgives us always. He WANTS us to be there and He will give us every chance to return. He won't turn anyone away.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by Elizabeth »

Jesus was openly preaching, surely the "powers that be" knew who He was and did not require Judas to identify Him.

gardener4life
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Re: Should we really give up eternal hope on Cain and Judas?

Post by gardener4life »

I'm not really saying either way on this issue but I do want to point out one thing.

Remorse that you got caught and are facing the music and remorse that you HURT VICTIMS are hard to see clearly and discern the difference between by us. In many cases most of the remorse is that they got caught and they can't progress. But part of repentance is remorse FOR the other party; the victim. If we only have remorse about us and not about the victim we're not really repenting.

If you look at the scriptures talking about Cain, he didn't have remorse for the victims but only that he's got to suffer a penalty.

People still have tons of trouble with empathy for other people.

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