Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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oneClimbs
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Jesef wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 8:01 pm I believe scriptures "justifying" polygamy are just flat out errors. Just like the ones where the (tribal) God "of Israel" commanded them to wipe out men, women, and children of other races/cultures (apparently He wasn't their Creator). Superstitious nonsense and polygamy seems akin to it. Shame on all the polygamists and their spiritual justifications for a barbaric and iniquitous (inequality/unequal) practice. Women are equal to men in every way that is significant, and especially in every eternal way - so no fuzzy one-to-many math or logistics required. The idea that their are more righteous women than men, who make it to celestial glory, thus requiring one man to many women, is preposterous. The God of the Universe and the economy of the Universe is smarter/more-intelligent than that. Just my opinion.
I agree with you for the most part, but remember that polygamy is currently codified into LDS theology via D&C 132. There remains a possibility that polygamy is indeed something divine but we are too selfish and evil to truly live and understand it. Again, there remains a possibility even if it is a small one. We are in that sticky situation and that is just how it is until some point in time where and if the church ever officially disavows it. Until then, we have to respect that polygamy is a doctrine of the LDS church and members that agree with that doctrine deserve respect. So I wouldn't go around saying "shame on you" and such.

Trust me, I have strong feelings on the matter as well, but we should have charity for one another and where we stand on things at the moment. We all change our opinions and ideas as we learn and grow. Remember where you once were in your journey and what you once believed. We all believed something wrong at some point and every one of us believes something that is wrong right now.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Satan could not have devised a more clever way of desecrating and destroying the family unit than by getting men to attempt to justify something like polygamy as an excuse to satisfy their own carnal desires. Polygamy completely destroys the sanctity of womanhood and the dignity of women while essentially making property out of them and rendering the most beautiful of all of God's human emotions meaningless, which is love between two people.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Jesef wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 8:01 pm I believe scriptures "justifying" polygamy are just flat out errors. Just like the ones where the (tribal) God "of Israel" commanded them to wipe out men, women, and children of other races/cultures (apparently He wasn't their Creator). Superstitious nonsense and polygamy seems akin to it. Shame on all the polygamists and their spiritual justifications for a barbaric and iniquitous (inequality/unequal) practice. Women are equal to men in every way that is significant, and especially in every eternal way - so no fuzzy one-to-many math or logistics required. The idea that their are more righteous women than men, who make it to celestial glory, thus requiring one man to many women, is preposterous. The God of the Universe and the economy of the Universe is smarter/more-intelligent than that. Just my opinion.
Polygamy is a biblical practice. There is no way around it.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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inquirringmind wrote: August 21st, 2017, 9:59 pm Even Denver's edited version of D&C 132 (which was section 54) has been removed from the remnant scriptures, and this is from their pearls of great price.
Just so you know the Denver splinter group is going to be just another of the splinter groups out there. There is nothing special about it and nothing much will come of it.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Col. Flagg wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 9:43 pm Satan could not have devised a more clever way of desecrating and destroying the family unit than by getting men to attempt to justify something like polygamy as an excuse to satisfy their own carnal desires. Polygamy completely destroys the sanctity of womanhood and the dignity of women while essentially making property out of them and rendering the most beautiful of all of God's human emotions meaningless, which is love between two people.
Polygamy is a biblical practice. There is no way around it.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Seek the Truth wrote:Polygamy is a biblical practice. There is no way around it.
Any practice in the bible is a "biblical practice" including incest like when Lot's daughters got him drunk and had sex with him. Saying something is a "biblical practice" doesn't mean it is doctrinal. Just because someone in the bible did something doesn't mean that it is right. Polygamy was a cultural practice and the first recorded instance of it is not Abraham but a great grandson of Cain who killed people that he felt wronged him. This man, known as Lamech, is the first polygamist in the Bible. Virtually every story involving polygamy in the Bible where we have some details, involves jealousy, cruelty and suffering on the part of the women. Sarai was jealous of Hagar who was this poor girl that had to have sex with an old man because she was pressured into it.

Jacob was tricked into marrying the wrong woman so the woman he loved, Rachel, had to deal with him having sex and children with the first wife while she couldn't have any kids so she had Jacob have sex with her handmaid so she could bear kids for her and then Leah had Jacob have sex with her handmaid to compete with Rachel. Both of these women seeking to outnumber each other in births to impress Jacob and be the one he loved more.

Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. There must have been a wedding every weekend or maybe some were bulk weddings, I don't even know how you have a relationship with 1000 women simultaneously. I wonder what their lives were like. If he spent a day with each wife (which would have been difficult with all his kingly duties) he wouldn't circle back around to that wife again for 2.7 years. That's a good model for marriage?

David had 12 wives I believe although he started with 2, and then that wasn't enough so he had a man killed so he could have that man's wife.

But this is a biblical practice, right? Nowhere does the Lord say he approved of this or commanded it. There's that bit about God giving David his master's wives, but why? Was it a test for David to see if he'd release them or keep them, or did some scribe make that part up?

Let's look at the Book of Mormon which has the actual word of the Lord himself concerning the matter.

The Lord said, "David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord." What thing would that be? Offering sacrifices to idol gods or adultery and having a man killed? Nope none of those instances were mentioned. The thing is having many wives and concubines. So I doubt he gave David those wives, something doesn't fit here.

Again, here is the word of the Lord: "For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts." Jacob 2:27-28

There you have it, having more than one wife is an abominable whoredom. God did not approve of David and Solomon's wives. How do we know that for sure? Because he spoke it in the law in Deuteronomy 17:17 where he states concerning the kings of Israel: "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

In all three instances of men taking wives and concubines in the Book of Mormon (Jacob's people, King Noah, Riplakish) having many wives and concubines is also associated with a love for riches and wealth. They go hand in hand and each time, the people are condemned.

Now here is something interesting that a guy at FAIR shared with me. He pointed out this passage from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Take a look:
"The Shoddy-Wall-Builders who went after "Precept" - Precept is a Raver of whom it says, "they shall surely rave" (Mic. 2:6) - they are caught in two: fornication, by taking two wives in their lifetimes, although the principle of creation is "male and female He created them" (Gen. 1:27) and those who went into the ark "went into the ark two by two" (Gen. 7:9). Concerning the Leader it is written "he shall not multiply wives to himself" (Deut. 17:17); but David had not read the sealed book of the Law in the Ark; for it was not opened in Israel from the day of the death of Eleazar and Joshua and the elders who served the goddess Ashtoret. It lay buried <and was not> revealed until the appearance of Zadok. Nevertheless the deeds of David were all excellent, except the murder of Uriah and God forgave him for that."
This is an interesting point. David probably did not read those words in the law, Solomon either. It was sealed in the ark long before they were born and it wasn't rediscovered until after they were both dead by the priest Hilkiah (2 Kings 22:8-11).

So these men taking on wives may have been part of the culture at the time, but the Lord in the Book of Mormon clearly and expressly says that them having many wives and concubines was an abomination. So trying to make a point by saying "biblical practice" and that's the end of the story is a very poor argument to make when you look at the details. It is something that only brought sorrow and was banned in the Nephite civilization for 1000 years of its existence from Lehi to Moroni; heck even the Lamanites kept that law even though the seemed to ignore everything else.

Again, the Lord says: "I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people." Taking many wives and concubines was happening in Jerusalem and among ALL his people, it was pervasive. The Lord says to the Nephites that "they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts." Jacob 2:33

The whoredoms committed by "them of old" could include Lamech, Abraham, Jacob, David, and Solomon but more particularly the last two but that could be because the Nephite people were focused on those two in particular.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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When I say biblical practice I mean so widespread that if God had a problem with it he would have said so. And he didn't.

The sins of various prophets are recorded in scripture, what is not recorded in the Old Testament is a prohibition on polygamy. Everyone was doing it.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Seek the Truth wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 11:18 pm When I say biblical practice I mean so widespread that if God had a problem with it he would have said so. And he didn't.

The sins of various prophets are recorded in scripture, what is not recorded in the Old Testament is a prohibition on polygamy. Everyone was doing it.
"And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men." (1 Nephi 13:26-27)

"...and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church." 1 Nephi 13:8

"Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. [...] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts." (Jacob 2:25,31-32)

Seems the polygamy was a reason that the Nephites were removed from Jerusalem. God clearly didn't approve of the practice. Perhaps he did condemn it but the great and abominable church wiped that from the records; after all, they like their gold, harlots and whoredoms.

Here's another thing. Jacob mentions this commandment from Lehi that their people have only one wife, but we don't have that record, it was probably in the Book of Lehi. Now this is speculation on my part but could it be that Satan targeted that book to be lost to try and hide that commandment? Now why would he do that, is polygamy that big of a deal?

Well, it might be, if it was a big enough deal that God mentioned it as a reason he was raising up a righteous branch of people on another entire continent. Plus, there's this. In Jacob 3, Jacob mentions that the Lamanites have continued to keep the commandment to have only one wife and he says this: "And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people."

Whoa, did you get that? Just by having one wife that alone was protecting them from destruction? Maybe polygamy was the main reason Jerusalem was destroyed as well. This is a very significant observation to make here. Note that in church history, polygamy almost destroyed the church twice, in Nauvoo and in Utah. Polygamy brings destruction, curses follow it like night follows the day.

The Bible has been in the hands of the great and abominable church, they have made modifications and have removed things. No doubt that polygamy would be cast in a good light. Trusting the bible alone on this matter is not wise. The Book of Mormon (the most correct of any book on earth) constitutes a new covenant, and if the commandment to have only one wife given to Lehi has been in force until our day then that means that we have a record of polygamy being banned for 2,600 years.

God does have a problem with it and he did say so.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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I don't have to trust just the Bible. The Catholics have no love of polygamy.

I trust God. If he created his chosen people out of a polygamous family who am I to judge.

Having said that, I am not pro polygamy. I have no interest in it and do believe with the brethren that it is only approved of when commanded. I have no interest in renewing polygamy.

But as a point of doctrine it was definitely a biblical practice.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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gclayjr wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 6:57 pm 5tev3,

I get your belief, and your arguments. I have heard this back and forth before. I guess, I am somewhat in the middle.To those who think that all who go to the Celestial kingdom must participate in plural marriage, I have often pointed out the mathematical problem that if plural marriage were to become common, there would not be enough women for all men to have multiple wives.

I also agree that most societies, including all societies today, who participate in polygamy, are brutal destructive societies that destroy both men and women. Women become property, or whores, and only men who are rich or powerful get wives, and those who are not get nothing, except maybe prostitutes. (By the way I lived in St. George in the early 70's and I used to meet young men who were driven out of Colorado City, because there were too many men to maintain the polygamous life.. and I'm sure we all know about those guys going out into other cities to entrap young ladies to join their community)

I do however believe that the scriptures are clear that there are certain limited circumstances (including Abraham, Jacob, etc) where plural marriage is not only acceptable, but is required. I understand that even in the early church, that plural marriage was practiced only by a few men. I believe that Plural marriage may be an accepted law in the Celestial kingdom, but the math indicates that even if it is the law, it will only be something to be practiced for a very limited number of celestial beings. I guess there will be a few more women than men who live righteously enough for a celestial glory... and they deserve all of the blessings, including eternal marriage and increase, even if not enough men live up to their covenants.

Regards,

George Clay
When we speak of men and women making it to the celestial kingdom, we always seem to assume that more women will make it than men will make it. Why? Is this belief formed through the cultural eyes of a belief in polygamy?

I personally don't think women have an eaiser chance to get there than men do. It may appear that way but as a woman I assure you, we sin just as much as men do and have just as much pride and whatever else.

So....what if there are more men than women that make it? I mean, Adam in the garden was willing to follow God's command without further thought on the matter. So, men can actually obey if they want to better than women can? (I realize there is much more to this)

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Seek the Truth wrote: August 22nd, 2017, 11:50 pm I don't have to trust just the Bible. The Catholics have no love of polygamy.

I trust God. If he created his chosen people out of a polygamous family who am I to judge.

Having said that, I am not pro polygamy. I have no interest in it and do believe with the brethren that it is only approved of when commanded. I have no interest in renewing polygamy.

But as a point of doctrine it was definitely a biblical practice.
The born again christian crowd do not believe that polygamy is acceptable before God. They believe in monogamy and what the Bible says. Men love your wife and cleave to her and women submit to your husband in all things.

They study the bible front to back, memorize and quote scriptures constantly, use the bible to disprove and find inconsistencies in various other belief systems. They know the bible for what the Bible has to offer. They are not influenced by the BOM or the early church history, and they DO NOT believe polygamy is acceptable to God.

Just wanted to throw that in

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Don't get far afield. What born again Christians believe has no bearing on what is in the Bible.

In the Bible God created his chosen people out of a polygamous family. This is as factual as anything in the Bible. I didn't make it up. Further, many other cases of polygamy within God's people can be found. If God can create his chosen people out of a polygamous family who am I to say anything about it. It is simply a Biblical practice.

Regardless of what born agains think.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Seek the Truth wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 12:17 am Don't get far afield. What born again Christians believe has no bearing on what is in the Bible.

In the Bible God created his chosen people out of a polygamous family. This is as factual as anything in the Bible. I didn't make it up. Further, many other cases of polygamy within God's people can be found. If God can create his chosen people out of a polygamous family who am I to say anything about it. It is simply a Biblical practice.

Regardless of what born agains think.
I think what they're saying is that even though you see meen marrying countless women in the Bible doesn't make it a correct practice.

If it was something that was just that plain and obvious then you'd see a lot more polygamists in the Christian world. Instead the overwhelming vast majority practice monogamy in accordance with with the Book of Mormon teaches. This kind of mirrors the situation where the Lamanites practicing monogamy according to commandment of the Lord but the Nephites were the ones violating it.

Maybe that's a parallel to today? Polygamy may have happened in the old world, but it has been banned in the Americas, on the promised land, since the beginning.

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gclayjr
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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5tev3,
David had 12 wives I believe although he started with 2, and then that wasn't enough so he had a man killed so he could have that man's wife.

But this is a biblical practice, right? Nowhere does the Lord say he approved of this or commanded it. There's that bit about God giving David his master's wives, but why? Was it a test for David to see if he'd release them or keep them, or did some scribe make that part up?
Since this is a limited command only for certain situations, and for most of us during most times a sin, one can select scriptures to justify whichever position one wants to take. I do see however, you, just like those who are trying to justify all ecompassing plural marriage, are pounding scriptures into pretty bent shapes to justify pretty tortured speculations about what might have been or what might be.

However, in Describing what David did wrong, Nathan, the prophet also described what the Lord APPROVED for him.


2 Samuel 12:7-9
7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Now you can decide that Nathan wasn't really speaking for the Lord when he said "Thus Saith the Lord", and you can also pick and choose scriptures to believe that God is a winged bird if you want to, but I would caution that such selective reading and believing may not lead to such a good place.

Regards,

George Clay

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Arenera
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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What about present day?

Inis Bernice Egan Hunter was the wife of Howard W. Hunter, fourteenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

She was born on August 19, 1914, in Thatcher, Utah. A few months after her birth, her father moved the family to central Idaho, where he ran a general store and post office. The family also lived in Soda Springs, Idaho, for a time while he ran a restaurant, and in Richmond, Utah. When Inis was seven years old, the family settled in Highland Park, California.

She married Robert Stanton and they had three children. They lived in Alhambra and La Canada, California. They divorced in 1966.

Inis loved music and during high school had a lead role in an opera. As an adult she sang with the Pasadena Choral Ensemble and the Southern California Mormon Choir. She was also an award-winning doll hobbyist, making dolls, their clothes, and painting their porcelain faces.

She met President Hunter in 1945 when he served as the bishop in the El Sereno Ward, her family’s ward. He and his family moved to Utah in 1959. His wife, Claire died in 1983. Inis moved to Utah in 1968, and she and President Hunter renewed their acquaintanceship after she began working as a receptionist in the Church Office Building. She had been single for 22 years when she married President Hunter on April 12, 1990. In a Church News interview, she said she had been able to support members who are alone:

I tell them that I lived alone for 22 years, that I know something of what they're feeling. I tell them that what kept me going was the fact that I knew that God loved me, that He was watching over me and knew my every thought, my every need, and that I knew He would provide for me . . .

Sure, I was lonesome, but I read the scriptures and went to the temple every week of my life. Sometimes, I went more than once a week. Prayer kept me going. That, and knowing the Lord loved me. I came to know He was not allowing me to be single to punish me, but He was preparing me for something. I always knew that I wouldn't be left holding the bag, that something was coming to me. I just didn't know what it was.

Hunter was serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles at the time of his marriage to Inis. He was sustained as president of the Church on June 5, 1994. She traveled with him as he fulfilled his church duties and was called upon often to speak to church members worldwide.

President Hunter passed away on March 3, 1995. She died on October 14, 2007, in Laguna Hills, California.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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gclayjr wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 7:04 amNow you can decide that Nathan wasn't really speaking for the Lord when he said "Thus Saith the Lord", and you can also pick and choose scriptures to believe that God is a winged bird if you want to, but I would caution that such selective reading and believing may not lead to such a good place.
Yes there is that one passage where it says that God gave David his masters wives, in the entire Bible there is one verse that says the Lord does this, but doesn't explain why. Here is my issue with that though, in the Book of Mormon, which I trust more and which points out that the Bible has been in the hands of the great and abominable church and has removed many things, the Lord says that David and Solomon having many wives and concubines was an abomination.

So in the Bible, he gives David wives, but in the Book of Mormon he says that "thing" was an abomination. Who's right? I lean toward the Book of Mormon which unequivocally condemns the practice so much so that there was a commandment given that they should have only one wife throughout their 1000 year history. Even Moroni at the very end points out that the Jaredite Riplakish did not do right by having many wives and concubines. So here's one who lived hundreds, maybe a 1000 years before Lehi and was part of a group that predates Abraham and has it's roots at the tower of Babel and Moroni says he was wrong then to have many wives.

I'm just trusting what the most correct book has to say about the issue and that is what informs the basis of my opinions in the matter.

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Arenera
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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5tev3 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 7:37 am
gclayjr wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 7:04 amNow you can decide that Nathan wasn't really speaking for the Lord when he said "Thus Saith the Lord", and you can also pick and choose scriptures to believe that God is a winged bird if you want to, but I would caution that such selective reading and believing may not lead to such a good place.
Yes there is that one passage where it says that God gave David his masters wives, in the entire Bible there is one verse that says the Lord does this, but doesn't explain why. Here is my issue with that though, in the Book of Mormon, which I trust more and which points out that the Bible has been in the hands of the great and abominable church and has removed many things, the Lord says that David and Solomon having many wives and concubines was an abomination.

So in the Bible, he gives David wives, but in the Book of Mormon he says that "thing" was an abomination. Who's right? I lean toward the Book of Mormon which unequivocally condemns the practice so much so that there was a commandment given that they should have only one wife throughout their 1000 year history. Even Moroni at the very end points out that the Jaredite Riplakish did not do right by having many wives and concubines. So here's one who lived hundreds, maybe a 1000 years before Lehi and was part of a group that predates Abraham and has it's roots at the tower of Babel and Moroni says he was wrong then to have many wives.

I'm just trusting what the most correct book has to say about the issue and that is what informs the basis of my opinions in the matter.
But do you trust your leaders?
Elder Russell M. Nelson, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was married in the Salt Lake Temple on Thursday to Wendy Watson, a professor of marriage and family therapy at Brigham Young University.

The announcement came in a press release posted on the LDS Church's Web site Thursday.

Elder Nelson's first wife, Dantzel White Nelson, died Feb. 12, 2005, leaving a family of 10 children, 56 grandchildren and 18 great-grandchildren. In an interview earlier this week with the Deseret Morning News, Elder Nelson spoke of his loneliness since his first wife's death, but gave no hint of his plans to remarry.

The marriage is the first for Watson, originally of Raymond, Alberta, Canada. She is the daughter of the late Leonard David and Laura McLean Watson. In 1970, she earned an R.N. in Calgary, a B.A. in 1973 from the University of Hawaii, an M.Sc. from BYU in 1975 and her Ph.D. from the University of Calgary in 1984.

An author of several books, she served as chairwoman of the BYU Women's Conference for 1999 and 2000. The press release said Watson plans to retire from BYU on May 1.

Ordained an apostle in the LDS Church on April 12, 1984, Elder Nelson received his B.A. and M.D. degrees from the University of Utah and his Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota. A renowned surgeon and medical researcher, Elder Nelson served as the former president of the Society for Vascular Surgery and also as former chairman of the Council on Cardiovascular Surgery for the American Heart Association.

Elder Nelson delivered a sermon on nurturing marriage during the church's general conference last Saturday afternoon. It featured memorable emotion from the church leader as he related a story about a clueless husband who was so absorbed in a video game that he ignored the attentions of his wife.

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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

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Arenera wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 7:37 amWhat about present day?
In this forum we have the spectrum of those who are supportive of polygamy, those who recognize it as doctrine but cringe at the idea of it, those that do not believe it is doctrinal but that God could command it as a test, and those who just straight up think it is an abomination as the Book of Mormon states. I think valid points can be made on all sides.

To those who are against polygamy there is a big problem that they must face. It is something I don't have the answer to and although I am in the "polygamy is bad" camp, there are situations that polygamy seems to solve better in the absence of any other solution. Now this could be because there just isn't another solution and polygamy is the answer or there could be another solution that just hasn't been revealed yet.

Even if you reject D&C 132 and favor the old 1835 section D&C 101 which also condemns polygamy we see this:
Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.
So this verse is very interesting. On the one hand is says that people should be monogamous except in the case of death. We believe in the afterlife so if someone dies they don't cease to exist, covenants are still in force. So if I covenant to cleave unto my wife and NONE ELSE, don't I break that if I get remarried after death? The verse doesn't say that either MUST marry again, just that they are at liberty to. That wording is kind of interesting don't you think? It leaves me with a, "Well, you can just do what you want to" kind of impression.

Let's say this verse is true and there is no problem with remarriage after death. In the next life are you married to both women? What about the man who marries a widow who was sealed to another who had a husband who died young? One guy is getting kicked to the curb. Would it be awkward to see your spouse again in the afterlife and face them knowing they saw you having sex and cleaving to another person? Maybe they are holier there and have a more eternal view.

What about polygamous families of the past, will God just break those families up? Most members of the Church will probably say, "no way!" but what about same-sex couples? I think most members would say that those relationships cannot endure in Celestial glory, so wouldn't it be the same for any polygamous ones if polygamy is an abomination? I also find it interesting that the Book of Mormon expressly condemns polygamy but says nothing about same-sex marriage. Which is the greater evil? Only polygamy was a threat to the Lamanite nation's existence. I'm just thinking out loud here.

When you look at certain situations, polygamy seems to be the answer, but only in the absence of solutions that may not have yet been revealed. I can't help but recognize that this fact leaves the door open for the possibility of polygamy but on the other hand, there isn't a concrete answer we can all plainly agree on.

Until more is revealed, I think this will always be a topic of speculation. The closest I can get to any kind of answer myself is to trust the Book of Mormon and simply look at the fruits. The fruits can be observed among fundamentalists, in history, and are consistent with those detailed in the Book of Mormon:

JACOB 2-3
* crimes (2:9)
* enlarge the wounds (2:9)
* wounded (2:9)
* wounds (2:9)
* wounded (2:9)
* daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds (2:9)
* your wickedness and abominations (2:10)
* broken heart (2:10)
* grosser crime (2:22)
* grosser crimes (2:23)
* iniquity (2:23)
* they understand not the scriptures (2:23)
* they seek to excuse themselves (2:23)
* whoredoms (2:23)
* abominable (2:24)
* one wife, concubines none (2:27)
* whoredoms (2:28)
* abomination (2:28)
* sorrow (2:31)
* mourning (2:31)
* wickedness (2:31)
* abominations (2:31)
* cries (2:32)
* lead away captive the daughters…because of their tenderness (2:33)
* whoredoms (2:33)
* ye have done these things which ye ought not have done (2:34)
* greater iniquities than the Lamanites (2:35)
* broken hearts of your tender wives (2:35)
* lost confidence of your children (2:35)
* your bad examples (2:35)
* sobbings of their hearts (2:35)
* many hearts died pierced with deep wounds (2:35)
* not pure in heart (3:3)
* filthy (3:3)
* filthy (3:3)
* they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none (3:5)
* whoredoms (3:5)
* ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them (3:10)
* sins (3:10)
* slumber of death (3:11)
* pains of hell (3:11)
* angels to the devil (3:11)
* lake of fire and brimstone (3:11)
* second death (3:11)
* fornication (3:12)
* lasciviousness (3:12)
* sin (3:12)
* awful consequences (3:12)

ALMA 39
* grievous (vs.3)
* steal away the hearts (vs.4)
* abomination (vs.5)
* abominable (vs.5)
* crime (vs.7)
* crimes (vs.7)
* crimes (vs.8)
* lusts of your eyes (vs.9)
* vain or foolish thing (vs.11)
* lead away your heart (vs.11)

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them." (3 Nephi 14:17-20)

Polygamy has never endured, it has always been hewn down and cast into the fire. It has only brought sorrow and broken hearts because that's what whoredoms do. That's what happens when one person in a relationship is never "married" and continues to date, marry, and have sex with other people while the other is expected to be monogamous. It puts man and women on unequal grounds. God created Eve as a help meet, his other half. Adam had more ribs that one right? He could have had a herem created for him but God gave him just one wife to populate the entire world. Seems like you can multiply and replenish just fine with monogamy. In fact, the Book of Mormon states repeatedly that the Nephites were able to "multiply exceedingly fast" (4 Nephi 1:10) under a commandment of monogamy.

In fact, in every single case where repopulation was needed, Adam and Eve, Noah, Jaredites, Lehi, etc. polygamy is never used and in Lehi's case a commandment was given specifically to forbid the practice and was never lifted in the civilizations 1000 year history. The only people that feel any sympathy toward the practice are men. If you tell a man that as his wife gets older and has more kids that he can marry a younger wife any time he wants throughout his marriage and then rule over all these women, that is a pretty dang attractive proposition to the natural man (who is an enemy to God). Put yourself in the shoes of the women now. Would you want that for your wife or your daughters?

God doesn't want it for his:

"I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people..."

"I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, ... shall come up unto me against the men of my people"

"For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness"

Jacob explains the fruits:

* Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives
* lost the confidence of your children
* your bad examples before them;
* sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you
* many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds

This is what it does to women.

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by Arenera »

5tev3 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 8:22 am
Arenera wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 7:37 amWhat about present day?
In this forum we have the spectrum of those who are supportive of polygamy, those who recognize it as doctrine but cringe at the idea of it, those that do not believe it is doctrinal but that God could command it as a test, and those who just straight up think it is an abomination as the Book of Mormon states. I think valid points can be made on all sides.

To those who are against polygamy there is a big problem that they must face. It is something I don't have the answer to and although I am in the "polygamy is bad" camp, there are situations that polygamy seems to solve better in the absence of any other solution. Now this could be because there just isn't another solution and polygamy is the answer or there could be another solution that just hasn't been revealed yet.

Even if you reject D&C 132 and favor the old 1835 section D&C 101 which also condemns polygamy we see this:
Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.
So this verse is very interesting. On the one hand is says that people should be monogamous except in the case of death. We believe in the afterlife so if someone dies they don't cease to exist, covenants are still in force. So if I covenant to cleave unto my wife and NONE ELSE, don't I break that if I get remarried after death? The verse doesn't say that either MUST marry again, just that they are at liberty to. That wording is kind of interesting don't you think? It leaves me with a, "Well, you can just do what you want to" kind of impression.

Let's say this verse is true and there is no problem with remarriage after death. In the next life are you married to both women? What about the man who marries a widow who was sealed to another who had a husband who died young? One guy is getting kicked to the curb. Would it be awkward to see your spouse again in the afterlife and face them knowing they saw you having sex and cleaving to another person? Maybe they are holier there and have a more eternal view.

What about polygamous families of the past, will God just break those families up? Most members of the Church will probably say, "no way!" but what about same-sex couples? I think most members would say that those relationships cannot endure in Celestial glory, so wouldn't it be the same for any polygamous ones if polygamy is an abomination? I also find it interesting that the Book of Mormon expressly condemns polygamy but says nothing about same-sex marriage. Which is the greater evil? Only polygamy was a threat to the Lamanite nation's existence. I'm just thinking out loud here.

When you look at certain situations, polygamy seems to be the answer, but only in the absence of solutions that may not have yet been revealed. I can't help but recognize that this fact leaves the door open for the possibility of polygamy but on the other hand, there isn't a concrete answer we can all plainly agree on.

Until more is revealed, I think this will always be a topic of speculation. The closest I can get to any kind of answer myself is to trust the Book of Mormon and simply look at the fruits. The fruits can be observed among fundamentalists, in history, and are consistent with those detailed in the Book of Mormon:

JACOB 2-3
* crimes (2:9)
* enlarge the wounds (2:9)
* wounded (2:9)
* wounds (2:9)
* wounded (2:9)
* daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds (2:9)
* your wickedness and abominations (2:10)
* broken heart (2:10)
* grosser crime (2:22)
* grosser crimes (2:23)
* iniquity (2:23)
* they understand not the scriptures (2:23)
* they seek to excuse themselves (2:23)
* whoredoms (2:23)
* abominable (2:24)
* one wife, concubines none (2:27)
* whoredoms (2:28)
* abomination (2:28)
* sorrow (2:31)
* mourning (2:31)
* wickedness (2:31)
* abominations (2:31)
* cries (2:32)
* lead away captive the daughters…because of their tenderness (2:33)
* whoredoms (2:33)
* ye have done these things which ye ought not have done (2:34)
* greater iniquities than the Lamanites (2:35)
* broken hearts of your tender wives (2:35)
* lost confidence of your children (2:35)
* your bad examples (2:35)
* sobbings of their hearts (2:35)
* many hearts died pierced with deep wounds (2:35)
* not pure in heart (3:3)
* filthy (3:3)
* filthy (3:3)
* they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none (3:5)
* whoredoms (3:5)
* ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them (3:10)
* sins (3:10)
* slumber of death (3:11)
* pains of hell (3:11)
* angels to the devil (3:11)
* lake of fire and brimstone (3:11)
* second death (3:11)
* fornication (3:12)
* lasciviousness (3:12)
* sin (3:12)
* awful consequences (3:12)

ALMA 39
* grievous (vs.3)
* steal away the hearts (vs.4)
* abomination (vs.5)
* abominable (vs.5)
* crime (vs.7)
* crimes (vs.7)
* crimes (vs.8)
* lusts of your eyes (vs.9)
* vain or foolish thing (vs.11)
* lead away your heart (vs.11)

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them." (3 Nephi 14:17-20)

Polygamy has never endured, it has always been hewn down and cast into the fire. It has only brought sorrow and broken hearts because that's what whoredoms do. That's what happens when one person in a relationship is never "married" and continues to date, marry, and have sex with other people while the other is expected to be monogamous. It puts man and women on unequal grounds. God created Eve as a help meet, his other half. Adam had more ribs that one right? He could have had a herem created for him but God gave him just one wife to populate the entire world. Seems like you can multiply and replenish just fine with monogamy. In fact, the Book of Mormon states repeatedly that the Nephites were able to "multiply exceedingly fast" (4 Nephi 1:10) under a commandment of monogamy.

In fact, in every single case where repopulation was needed, Adam and Eve, Noah, Jaredites, Lehi, etc. polygamy is never used and in Lehi's case a commandment was given specifically to forbid the practice and was never lifted in the civilizations 1000 year history. The only people that feel any sympathy toward the practice are men. If you tell a man that as his wife gets older and has more kids that he can marry a younger wife any time he wants throughout his marriage and then rule over all these women, that is a pretty dang attractive proposition to the natural man (who is an enemy to God). Put yourself in the shoes of the women now. Would you want that for your wife or your daughters?

God doesn't want it for his:

"I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people..."

"I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, ... shall come up unto me against the men of my people"

"For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness"

Jacob explains the fruits:

* Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives
* lost the confidence of your children
* your bad examples before them;
* sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you
* many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds

This is what it does to women.
Sorry, but we are known as Israel, a covenant made with Jacob. Jacob had 4 wives.
And the old Section 101 was written by Oliver Cowdery. And the lectures on Faith were written by Sidney Rigdon.

Joseph Smith was commanded to practice polygamy.

Wilford Woodruff was instructed to stop the practice.

It doesn't matter if we like it, or don't like it. The fact is that polygamy has been ordained of God before.

Today we practice one piece of it.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Kristen McMain will be married Aug. 25 in the Salt Lake Temple.

The LDS Church Public Affairs Office said this is the second marriage for Elder Oaks and the first for McMain. Elder Oaks' first wife, June Dixon Oaks, died July 21, 1998.

Elder Oaks turned 68 Aug. 12, but McCain's age was not released.

Ordained as an apostle May 3, 1984, Elder Oaks is a graduate of Brigham Young University in accounting. He received a juris doctorate cum laude from the University of Chicago. He has served as a law clerk to Chief U.S. Justice Earl Warren and was a professor of law at the University Chicago for 10 years.

He also served for nine years as president of BYU and three years as a Utah Supreme Court justice. He has also been executive director of the American Bar Foundation. He was born in Provo.

Elder Oaks and his first wife are the parents of six children.

McMain is the daughter of Dr. William A. and Margaret McMain of Salt Lake City. She has a doctorate in education from Brigham Young University, as well as a bachelor's degree in English and a master's in special education from the University of Utah.

She also has worked for 15 years in the book publishing business both domestically and internationally, according to information provided by the church. She also served in the Japan Sendai Mission and was reared in Salt Lake City.

MMbelieve
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5072

Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by MMbelieve »

Seek the Truth wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 12:17 am Don't get far afield. What born again Christians believe has no bearing on what is in the Bible.

In the Bible God created his chosen people out of a polygamous family. This is as factual as anything in the Bible. I didn't make it up. Further, many other cases of polygamy within God's people can be found. If God can create his chosen people out of a polygamous family who am I to say anything about it. It is simply a Biblical practice.

Regardless of what born agains think.
Seriously, what are you even trying to argue? If people can read and comprehend words? Or if they condone a historical practice?

They recognize the polygamy in the Bible and accept that it was okay at the given time. That God allowed it to happen (vs condone or happy about). They almost talk about it as an old acceptable way and today is the new way or higher way of monogamy.

Not condoning a practice or behavior from the Bible is not denying that it's in the bible.

MMbelieve
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5072

Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by MMbelieve »

Arenera wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 8:30 am
5tev3 wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 8:22 am
Arenera wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 7:37 amWhat about present day?
In this forum we have the spectrum of those who are supportive of polygamy, those who recognize it as doctrine but cringe at the idea of it, those that do not believe it is doctrinal but that God could command it as a test, and those who just straight up think it is an abomination as the Book of Mormon states. I think valid points can be made on all sides.

To those who are against polygamy there is a big problem that they must face. It is something I don't have the answer to and although I am in the "polygamy is bad" camp, there are situations that polygamy seems to solve better in the absence of any other solution. Now this could be because there just isn't another solution and polygamy is the answer or there could be another solution that just hasn't been revealed yet.

Even if you reject D&C 132 and favor the old 1835 section D&C 101 which also condemns polygamy we see this:
Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.
So this verse is very interesting. On the one hand is says that people should be monogamous except in the case of death. We believe in the afterlife so if someone dies they don't cease to exist, covenants are still in force. So if I covenant to cleave unto my wife and NONE ELSE, don't I break that if I get remarried after death? The verse doesn't say that either MUST marry again, just that they are at liberty to. That wording is kind of interesting don't you think? It leaves me with a, "Well, you can just do what you want to" kind of impression.

Let's say this verse is true and there is no problem with remarriage after death. In the next life are you married to both women? What about the man who marries a widow who was sealed to another who had a husband who died young? One guy is getting kicked to the curb. Would it be awkward to see your spouse again in the afterlife and face them knowing they saw you having sex and cleaving to another person? Maybe they are holier there and have a more eternal view.

What about polygamous families of the past, will God just break those families up? Most members of the Church will probably say, "no way!" but what about same-sex couples? I think most members would say that those relationships cannot endure in Celestial glory, so wouldn't it be the same for any polygamous ones if polygamy is an abomination? I also find it interesting that the Book of Mormon expressly condemns polygamy but says nothing about same-sex marriage. Which is the greater evil? Only polygamy was a threat to the Lamanite nation's existence. I'm just thinking out loud here.

When you look at certain situations, polygamy seems to be the answer, but only in the absence of solutions that may not have yet been revealed. I can't help but recognize that this fact leaves the door open for the possibility of polygamy but on the other hand, there isn't a concrete answer we can all plainly agree on.

Until more is revealed, I think this will always be a topic of speculation. The closest I can get to any kind of answer myself is to trust the Book of Mormon and simply look at the fruits. The fruits can be observed among fundamentalists, in history, and are consistent with those detailed in the Book of Mormon:

JACOB 2-3
* crimes (2:9)
* enlarge the wounds (2:9)
* wounded (2:9)
* wounds (2:9)
* wounded (2:9)
* daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds (2:9)
* your wickedness and abominations (2:10)
* broken heart (2:10)
* grosser crime (2:22)
* grosser crimes (2:23)
* iniquity (2:23)
* they understand not the scriptures (2:23)
* they seek to excuse themselves (2:23)
* whoredoms (2:23)
* abominable (2:24)
* one wife, concubines none (2:27)
* whoredoms (2:28)
* abomination (2:28)
* sorrow (2:31)
* mourning (2:31)
* wickedness (2:31)
* abominations (2:31)
* cries (2:32)
* lead away captive the daughters…because of their tenderness (2:33)
* whoredoms (2:33)
* ye have done these things which ye ought not have done (2:34)
* greater iniquities than the Lamanites (2:35)
* broken hearts of your tender wives (2:35)
* lost confidence of your children (2:35)
* your bad examples (2:35)
* sobbings of their hearts (2:35)
* many hearts died pierced with deep wounds (2:35)
* not pure in heart (3:3)
* filthy (3:3)
* filthy (3:3)
* they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none (3:5)
* whoredoms (3:5)
* ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them (3:10)
* sins (3:10)
* slumber of death (3:11)
* pains of hell (3:11)
* angels to the devil (3:11)
* lake of fire and brimstone (3:11)
* second death (3:11)
* fornication (3:12)
* lasciviousness (3:12)
* sin (3:12)
* awful consequences (3:12)

ALMA 39
* grievous (vs.3)
* steal away the hearts (vs.4)
* abomination (vs.5)
* abominable (vs.5)
* crime (vs.7)
* crimes (vs.7)
* crimes (vs.8)
* lusts of your eyes (vs.9)
* vain or foolish thing (vs.11)
* lead away your heart (vs.11)

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them." (3 Nephi 14:17-20)

Polygamy has never endured, it has always been hewn down and cast into the fire. It has only brought sorrow and broken hearts because that's what whoredoms do. That's what happens when one person in a relationship is never "married" and continues to date, marry, and have sex with other people while the other is expected to be monogamous. It puts man and women on unequal grounds. God created Eve as a help meet, his other half. Adam had more ribs that one right? He could have had a herem created for him but God gave him just one wife to populate the entire world. Seems like you can multiply and replenish just fine with monogamy. In fact, the Book of Mormon states repeatedly that the Nephites were able to "multiply exceedingly fast" (4 Nephi 1:10) under a commandment of monogamy.

In fact, in every single case where repopulation was needed, Adam and Eve, Noah, Jaredites, Lehi, etc. polygamy is never used and in Lehi's case a commandment was given specifically to forbid the practice and was never lifted in the civilizations 1000 year history. The only people that feel any sympathy toward the practice are men. If you tell a man that as his wife gets older and has more kids that he can marry a younger wife any time he wants throughout his marriage and then rule over all these women, that is a pretty dang attractive proposition to the natural man (who is an enemy to God). Put yourself in the shoes of the women now. Would you want that for your wife or your daughters?

God doesn't want it for his:

"I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people..."

"I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, ... shall come up unto me against the men of my people"

"For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness"

Jacob explains the fruits:

* Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives
* lost the confidence of your children
* your bad examples before them;
* sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you
* many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds

This is what it does to women.
Sorry, but we are known as Israel, a covenant made with Jacob. Jacob had 4 wives.
And the old Section 101 was written by Oliver Cowdery. And the lectures on Faith were written by Sidney Rigdon.

Joseph Smith was commanded to practice polygamy.

Wilford Woodruff was instructed to stop the practice.

It doesn't matter if we like it, or don't like it. The fact is that polygamy has been ordained of God before.

Today we practice one piece of it.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Kristen McMain will be married Aug. 25 in the Salt Lake Temple.

The LDS Church Public Affairs Office said this is the second marriage for Elder Oaks and the first for McMain. Elder Oaks' first wife, June Dixon Oaks, died July 21, 1998.

Elder Oaks turned 68 Aug. 12, but McCain's age was not released.

Ordained as an apostle May 3, 1984, Elder Oaks is a graduate of Brigham Young University in accounting. He received a juris doctorate cum laude from the University of Chicago. He has served as a law clerk to Chief U.S. Justice Earl Warren and was a professor of law at the University Chicago for 10 years.

He also served for nine years as president of BYU and three years as a Utah Supreme Court justice. He has also been executive director of the American Bar Foundation. He was born in Provo.

Elder Oaks and his first wife are the parents of six children.

McMain is the daughter of Dr. William A. and Margaret McMain of Salt Lake City. She has a doctorate in education from Brigham Young University, as well as a bachelor's degree in English and a master's in special education from the University of Utah.

She also has worked for 15 years in the book publishing business both domestically and internationally, according to information provided by the church. She also served in the Japan Sendai Mission and was reared in Salt Lake City.
Oaks had one wife at a time, not at the same time. This is no argument for polygamy. Polygamy is having 2 or more spouses at the same time. So, he was sealed. Ya, and? He did not practice earthly polygamy like they did in the bible or the early church.

The woman oaks married second was without a sealing. If he didn't provide that for her I would look down on him. They three can sort that out after this life. But it is irrelevant to any earthy polygamy.

It's really annoying when people use the two apostles with a new wife as evidence of anything. That's eternal sealings not polygamy in practice which is the majority of the debate around polygamy anyways.

We already know the bible had it and early church had it and we know some men may have both their wives in heaven...and we also know that it is not a requirement let alone even the standard. Monogamy is preferred and will be the dominating standard. No man will be approached by God in heaven and compelled to take more women. Women won't be forced or compelled to do this.

If we actually believe women are to be treated like the D&C 132 claims (property, forced, punished), then I'm suprised we have so many blind sheep (women) in this church.

Oh boy, I feel I may be called a femanist again.
If saying a woman should be treated as an equal person of value and not as property....then feel free to call me a femanist. And be sure to call me whatever word it is that believes the same for children and men.

Sad that that word should be a "christian"

User avatar
Arenera
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2712

Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by Arenera »

MMbelieve wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:11 am Oaks had one wife at a time, not at the same time. This is no argument for polygamy. Polygamy is having 2 or more spouses at the same time. So, he was sealed. Ya, and? He did not practice earthly polygamy like they did in the bible or the early church.

The woman oaks married second was without a sealing. If he didn't provide that for her I would look down on him. They three can sort that out after this life. But it is irrelevant to any earthy polygamy.

It's really annoying when people use the two apostles with a new wife as evidence of anything. That's eternal sealings not polygamy in practice which is the majority of the debate around polygamy anyways.

We already know the bible had it and early church had it and we know some men may have both their wives in heaven...and we also know that it is not a requirement let alone even the standard. Monogamy is preferred and will be the dominating standard. No man will be approached by God in heaven and compelled to take more women. Women won't be forced or compelled to do this.

If we actually believe women are to be treated like the D&C 132 claims (property, forced, punished), then I'm suprised we have so many blind sheep (women) in this church.

Oh boy, I feel I may be called a femanist again.
If saying a woman should be treated as an equal person of value and not as property....then feel free to call me a femanist. And be sure to call me whatever word it is that believes the same for children and men.

Sad that that word should be a "christian"
St35e said polygamy has never endured. That is not correct.

This is more involved than you realize. When you received your tribe lineage, did you consider that the tribe you are in came from 4 different wives. We all share in the covenant of Abraham, and he had 2 wives.

Some in our day are descendants of polygamy. That is very real.

Some of our leaders have been sealed to a second wife, I have shown examples. Eternal sealings! This endures.

A woman should be treated beyond kind. A gem of rare beauty! A creature of divine nature!

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Jesef
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by Jesef »

Yes, an erroneous biblical practice, like so many other erroneous (and primitive) cultural practices from those times. Like the one I mentioned in which races or tribes, such as Israel, used their "God" to justify genocides - wiping out other races/cultures - men, women, and children - for not being "chosen" & "righteous". The Old Testament is full of stuff like that. Don't use the Bible as justification for superstitious or obvious nonsense. Don't propagate the errors. Use your head (and your heart).

MMbelieve
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Posts: 5072

Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by MMbelieve »

Arenera wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:22 am
MMbelieve wrote: August 23rd, 2017, 9:11 am Oaks had one wife at a time, not at the same time. This is no argument for polygamy. Polygamy is having 2 or more spouses at the same time. So, he was sealed. Ya, and? He did not practice earthly polygamy like they did in the bible or the early church.

The woman oaks married second was without a sealing. If he didn't provide that for her I would look down on him. They three can sort that out after this life. But it is irrelevant to any earthy polygamy.

It's really annoying when people use the two apostles with a new wife as evidence of anything. That's eternal sealings not polygamy in practice which is the majority of the debate around polygamy anyways.

We already know the bible had it and early church had it and we know some men may have both their wives in heaven...and we also know that it is not a requirement let alone even the standard. Monogamy is preferred and will be the dominating standard. No man will be approached by God in heaven and compelled to take more women. Women won't be forced or compelled to do this.

If we actually believe women are to be treated like the D&C 132 claims (property, forced, punished), then I'm suprised we have so many blind sheep (women) in this church.

Oh boy, I feel I may be called a femanist again.
If saying a woman should be treated as an equal person of value and not as property....then feel free to call me a femanist. And be sure to call me whatever word it is that believes the same for children and men.

Sad that that word should be a "christian"
St35e said polygamy has never endured. That is not correct.

This is more involved than you realize. When you received your tribe lineage, did you consider that the tribe you are in came from 4 different wives. We all share in the covenant of Abraham, and he had 2 wives.

Some in our day are descendants of polygamy. That is very real.

Some of our leaders have been sealed to a second wife, I have shown examples. Eternal sealings! This endures.

A woman should be treated beyond kind. A gem of rare beauty! A creature of divine nature!
And some people come from rapists and serial killers and adulterers and drunks and racist and child molesters and whatever else. Just because I come from a polygamist union or a polygamist man way way back means NOTHING to me.

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Jesef
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Re: Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

Post by Jesef »

Just because it is still practiced in some form, does not make it true/real or good. All that proves is we (as a religion) still do it, or allow it (just not simultaneously, while both women are alive). Do we allow widows who remarry (who were sealed to their first husband) to be sealed to their second/new husband? I'm pretty sure we don't. Doesn't make it right. Why not? Why can't they sort it out in the afterlife as well?

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