Some questions about Denver Snuffer

[inquirringmind]

Someone posted this on another forum a long time ago (and he was never really answered.)

...if Joseph and Denver achieved/received/qualified-for the greatest of all blessings of the Lord, and the Lord is no respecter of persons, then they must have fulfilled His expectations/commandments/requirements, therefore their teachings/lives/examples, if emulated, should qualify any person before the Lord. Therefore, when I look at certain aspects of their teachings/writings and lives/examples and I cannot reconcile them with some of what I'm hearing or understanding you saying, I have a problem. Either my understanding is wrong or some of your interpretations are not entirely correct. I think.

For example - and, again, I've probably misunderstood, so consider it an opportunity to clarify, not just for me but for many on this forum who seem to also not quite be totally understanding and/or thus far agreeing with what you're saying: saving money and/or owning property. It appears that both Joseph and Denver have saved money and owned property. Neither one seems to have become a bum on the street. Denver earns money as a lawyer, has owned Harley Davidson motorcycles, etc. Joseph was in the employ of the Church for most of his ministry - his property and living expenses paid for by various things funded by the Church - not terribly different than it sounds like the LDS Brethren today to be honest.

To those of you who may be more familiar with what Denver has written, and what he's said about his own life and experiences in those writings, was there ever a time (after he joined the LDS church, and before he received the Second Comforter) when he gave up his house, car, motorcycles, law practice, and lived in poverty?

This is what some are teaching one has to do (and I believe he teaches that one has to do) to receive the Second Comforter.

Can it be shown that Denver actually did this?

Isn't he (even now) a rich successful lawyer, a property owner, and a full partner in a law firm?

And hasn't he always been?

That's a question I'd like to ask those who think Mr. Snuffer is a true prophet.

But I also have a question for those who think he's a false prophet.

What does he get (and-what can he hope to get) out of this movement if the fellowships are autonomous, and he donates all the proceeds from his book sales to the LDS relief fund.

That's the claim I've seen, and I'd like to know if it's true.

And the LDS church should know if it's receiving funds from the sale of his books.

[jwbohrer]

Can't answer all the questions, but I can give you my opinion as to the second series of questions--if he is a false prophet, what does he hope to get out of it?

Additional question may be if we believe he is a false prophet, does he know he is a false prophet?

Well, if we assume he is knowingly acting as a false prophet, he hopes to lead people away from the true church (easy). But if we believe he is a false prophet and is in fact following Satan--which I do--then that's not the right question to ask--the right question is what are Satan's motivations in having his false prophet not take money from his followers.

I've got this theory that Satan has the perfect temptation for each of us. He's got the perfect false prophet for all of us--and so Snuffer, as a wealthy individual, is the perfect temptation for a lot of people who are disillusioned by the "corporate" side and structure of the church. Most likely, many of those who are struggling with addiction, morality or other big sins are not Satan/Snuffer's target audience, although they may get swept up and converted into his message as well. (Satan at that point wouldn't care if they held onto their other sins or not--a person gives up a big sin for apostasy but thinks they are saved in a false church is a powerful ally for Satan!)

I believe his target audience are by and large good members of the church who have progressed more than the average Member, they know more than the average Member of things the church does, they know more of its history, more of its doctrine, and more of its day to day workings. Satan needs to craft a temptation for those people, he needs to create a false prophet to lead them astray. Someone who is frustrated by the mall purchase, for instance, is a great "mark" for Snuffer--and as such would immediately pick up on any attempts by Snuffer to profit off of his teachings. As you've stated, he already is financially successful so has the luxury of not having to use his movement to make money.

What a great way to leverage the anxiety about the mall purchase, "mormonleaks"--or whatever represents the "corporate structure" of the church in the mind of the person being tempted--by having someone who clearly is not benefiting financially by his priestcraft be the leaders of the break off movement dejour. It doesn't matter by this point if he is knowingly leading people astray, his delivery is calculated either directly by him or indirectly through Satan to appeal to current events.

Many of the people who have followed him are very smart and perceptive...many of those people are already disenchanted by the "corporate" financial matters of the Church, or by the sometimes rigid structure of a church (note how much the concept of "correlation" is criticized by Snufferites) so to them Snuffer is a great alternative...he's the antidote to their frustrations with the structure of the church.

As I said earlier, it really doesn't matter if he is knows he is a false prophet or not. Satan needed a way to target an specific portion of the LDS population, and Snuffer obliged him. Its possible Snuffer says to himself, "I"m going to avoid making money off my followers in order to hoodwink them longer." But I think that things are more subtle than that. I think Satan targeted Snuffer. He targeted someone would has a kind heart and generous nature--and does not covet money yet possesses enough of it to live comfortably and never be tempted with seeking riches. A false prophet who covets money is less useful to mislead LDS members than a false prophet who seeks neither fame nor fortune.

That's one reason I think that he believes his own nonsense--and therefore, aside from Satan's motivations, Snuffer's personal motivations are actually "good"; they are the same as many others on this board and in the church--trying to lead people to greater happiness and eternal exaltation.

If you think about it, its subtle trickery by Satan. As Snuffer continues to get deeper into this movement, he probably feels fewer and fewer temptations. Why waste time tempting Snuffer with A, B or C when he leading a false church filled with mostly good people? If I were Satan, I would NEVER tempt Snuffer with immorality or monetary gain because it would remove Snuffer as a powerful tool to mislead strong LDS members. I believe the devil has withdrawn his angels from around Snuffer and his life is very good right now. I suspect he never looks upon women lustfully, never feels tempted by pornography, never feels tempted to not pay tithing, never feels tempted to react in anger to his family, etc. He may interpret this as something like, "As I become closer to God, the devil is losing his power to tempt me."

So what does Snuffer get out of his movement? Sadly he gets to tell himself he's helping people find a better path to God. Let go of that iron rod and take a shortcut.

[jim]

Someone posted this on another forum a long time ago (and he was never really answered.)

...if Joseph and Denver achieved/received/qualified-for the greatest of all blessings of the Lord, and the Lord is no respecter of persons, then they must have fulfilled His expectations/commandments/requirements, therefore their teachings/lives/examples, if emulated, should qualify any person before the Lord. Therefore, when I look at certain aspects of their teachings/writings and lives/examples and I cannot reconcile them with some of what I'm hearing or understanding you saying, I have a problem. Either my understanding is wrong or some of your interpretations are not entirely correct. I think.

For example - and, again, I've probably misunderstood, so consider it an opportunity to clarify, not just for me but for many on this forum who seem to also not quite be totally understanding and/or thus far agreeing with what you're saying: saving money and/or owning property. It appears that both Joseph and Denver have saved money and owned property. Neither one seems to have become a bum on the street. Denver earns money as a lawyer, has owned Harley Davidson motorcycles, etc. Joseph was in the employ of the Church for most of his ministry - his property and living expenses paid for by various things funded by the Church - not terribly different than it sounds like the LDS Brethren today to be honest.

To those of you who may be more familiar with what Denver has written, and what he's said about his own life and experiences in those writings, was there ever a time (after he joined the LDS church, and before he received the Second Comforter) when he gave up his house, car, motorcycles, law practice, and lived in poverty?

This is what some are teaching one has to do (and I believe he teaches that one has to do) to receive the Second Comforter.

Can it be shown that Denver actually did this?

Isn't he (even now) a rich successful lawyer, a property owner, and a full partner in a law firm?

And hasn't he always been?

That's a question I'd like to ask those who think Mr. Snuffer is a true prophet.

But I also have a question for those who think he's a false prophet.

What does he get (and-what can he hope to get) out of this movement if the fellowships are autonomous, and he donates all the proceeds from his book sales to the LDS relief fund.

That's the claim I've seen, and I'd like to know if it's true.

And the LDS church should know if it's receiving funds from the sale of his books.

I think you're assuming that if a man has any money he cannot be a true prophet. He must sell every last thing that he has or he can't be a true prophet. These are the men that are constantly held up as the examples in the old testament as examples of righteous since God established a covenant with them. Here's what I found on Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph with a pretty quick search.

Abraham's servant stating his lord (boss) Abraham, has been [temporally] blessed by the Lord greatly:
with silver, gold, menservants, maidservants, camels and asses etc.
Gen. 24:34-35

Jacob with his flocks (sounds like a lot of property he has obtained by i trying to give some animals to his brother Esau to bury the hatchet.
Gen. 32: 4-8

Pharoh puts a ring on Joseph and makes him 2nd in command (ruler over all Egypt)
Gen. 41: 41 -42

What would Denver have to gain? It seems a few possibilities to me, he is either speaking truth about his experiences, he is deluded but sincere, or he is a false prophet and he knows it. Here are a few scriptures I found about the matter that might be of use.

KJV Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

To me this says, find out for yourself, don't just assume other people know.

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

If you want to know something go to God. It surprises me how much uncharitable mudslinging I see on this forum from people who disagree with someone else on doctrinal matters they immediately resort to name-calling (I'm not accusing you of that inquiring mind, but I've seen it as far too commonplace for people that claim to follow Christ).

Here's what Nephi told his brothers when they had a real question, and it's what I'd recommend. Get a revelation yourself.

1 Nephi 15
8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?
9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.
10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?
11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.


John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves "in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth," and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.
History of the Church, 4:574
https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/volume-4-chapter-33

Christ's advice on finding a true servant (do they encourage you to enter the strait gate which leads to eternal life or not?)
Matthew 7:12-21

I hope this helps somewhat.

[Seek the Truth]

Personally it seems obvious that the root of all this is the sin of pride. Denver was passed over to be Bishop at some point and his ego couldn't take it, as a result he constructed this whole new church/nonchurch. He is blinded by his pride.

The motive to be the leader of any movement is self aggrandizement.

[jdt]

Personally it seems obvious that the root of all this is the sin of pride. Denver was passed over to be Bishop at some point and his ego couldn't take it, as a result he constructed this whole new church/nonchurch. He is blinded by his pride.

The motive to be the leader of any movement is self aggrandizement.

This is impossible to do, as no one exactly opens their personal account balances up, but who do you think is more aggrandized by their position in a religious movement: Denver Snuffer or Thomas Monson?

[Seek the Truth]

Lol it's not a case of relativism. If Snuffer is motivated by that he's violated his premise, and that is one of his motivations clearly. Thomas Monson can claim he was called to run the Church, Snuffer is foisting himself on whoever.