Deleted

[brianj]

No. I used to, but no longer.

When I was taught the gospel, and when I served my mission, the missionary discussion on the plan of salvation had an isosceles triangle on one of the pages, with two horizontal lines dividing it into three sections. The big section at the bottom represented all the people who would end up in the Telestial kingdom, the smaller middle section represented Terrestrial glory, and the small upper portion represented the special few who make it into the Celestial kingdom. And I believed that is how it was.

That diagram is wrong. I was wrong.

A great many people died before reaching their eighth birthday, and the church teaches these are going to qualify for the Celestial kingdom because they didn't become old enough to sin. Obviously we don't have detailed enough records to know exactly what the overall mortality rate was, but I would not be surprised to learn that a majority of those born on Earth didn't live to age 8. I believe that a lot of us will die, meet someone who died young, and think or say: "You're so lucky that you didn't have to go through that."
They will respond with, "You're so lucky you were able to go through that!"

At this time we have temptation everywhere, thanks to all the works of wickedness in the world today. We also have wicked spirits continually trying to tempt us. And during the Millennium these wicked works won't exist plus the devil and his followers will be bound. But how well prepared will those born during the millennium be? At some point in time the devil will be freed for "a short season." How will those who have never known temptation react to being tempted and resist it?

I look at that short season as a final exam. And I sincerely believe that experiencing temptation and wickedness now will help us to resist it then, and be great forces for helping those who aren't as ready to resist temptation when that time comes.

[Michelle]

No. I used to, but no longer.

When I was taught the gospel, and when I served my mission, the missionary discussion on the plan of salvation had an isosceles triangle on one of the pages, with two horizontal lines dividing it into three sections. The big section at the bottom represented all the people who would end up in the Telestial kingdom, the smaller middle section represented Terrestrial glory, and the small upper portion represented the special few who make it into the Celestial kingdom. And I believed that is how it was.

That diagram is wrong. I was wrong.

A great many people died before reaching their eighth birthday, and the church teaches these are going to qualify for the Celestial kingdom because they didn't become old enough to sin. Obviously we don't have detailed enough records to know exactly what the overall mortality rate was, but I would not be surprised to learn that a majority of those born on Earth didn't live to age 8. I believe that a lot of us will die, meet someone who died young, and think or say: "You're so lucky that you didn't have to go through that."
They will respond with, "You're so lucky you were able to go through that!"

At this time we have temptation everywhere, thanks to all the works of wickedness in the world today. We also have wicked spirits continually trying to tempt us. And during the Millennium these wicked works won't exist plus the devil and his followers will be bound. But how well prepared will those born during the millennium be? At some point in time the devil will be freed for "a short season." How will those who have never known temptation react to being tempted and resist it?

I look at that short season as a final exam. And I sincerely believe that experiencing temptation and wickedness now will help us to resist it then, and be great forces for helping those who aren't as ready to resist temptation when that time comes.

Great post. I too believe that many who live during the millennium will be those who died before 8. We are taught there will be no change made in the grave, so if you died young, you come back young and are raised to adulthood.

That means there are a LOT of people waiting to finish their lives in the Millennium.

[h_p]

Infant Mortality Rate by Country

Those are some pretty stark numbers. Afghanistan is presently the highest, with about 11% of all live births not surviving. There are no numbers for deaths under the age of 8, and these are only modern numbers. Take a look at the historical table, but it only goes back to the 1950's. Afghanistan back then had a 28% infant death rate. One can only imagine what it was like during the Middle Ages worldwide. Even just 100 years ago was a very different medical scene than it is now.

I think those of us who reach the Celestial Kingdom by growing to adulthood and proving ourselves faithful in mortality will be the minority there. I've wondered if we're actually the cursed ones who flunked the first exam but somehow got a do-over.

[LDS Physician]

I think that there is something to be said about MMPs in regards to this topic.

[Michelle]

I think that there is something to be said about MMPs in regards to this topic.

What is an MMP?

[e-eye2.0]

I have thought about this.

Will those in the millennium be tested at the end or if they have been changed in a twinkling of en eye will Satan have no power to tempt them ever again? I imagine when Satan is loosed all those who are currently living will be tested and I can only imagine that will be billions upon billions - unless there is a specific number of Gods children who need to come here (I am assuming there is) and once they are all here were done having kids) Not sure how this all plays out but we know we can be tempted after this life but for a resurrected bean there would not be such temptation.

I imagine in about oh 900-1,000 years there will be an LDSFF with a bunch of members speculating the end of the world and freedoms etc. The talk will be how long that season will be - It could be a few years maybe hundreds of years.

[LDS Physician]

I think that there is something to be said about MMPs in regards to this topic.

What is an MMP?

Multiple Mortal Probations -- theory that we have "eternal rounds" or "eternal lives" = multiple mortal experiences. There is an interesting thread on the idea on this site somewhere.

[Michelle]

I have thought about this.

Will those in the millennium be tested at the end or if they have been changed in a twinkling of en eye will Satan have no power to tempt them ever again? I imagine when Satan is loosed all those who are currently living will be tested and I can only imagine that will be billions upon billions - unless there is a specific number of Gods children who need to come here (I am assuming there is) and once they are all here were done having kids) Not sure how this all plays out but we know we can be tempted after this life but for a resurrected bean there would not be such temptation.

I imagine in about oh 900-1,000 years there will be an LDSFF with a bunch of members speculating the end of the world and freedoms etc. The talk will be how long that season will be - It could be a few years maybe hundreds of years.

Satan is only bound for a thousand years because no one will obey him. He can still try to tempt, but they refuse to be tempted. The change "twinkling" comes after one has grown "to the age of a tree" not at birth. If we could be tempted in the pre-existence why can't we be tempted in the Millennium even after we are resurrected, especially those resurrected last, the most wicked? Where do the Sons of Perdition come from, but those who know and then refuse Christ? We know Satan gathers his forces at the end and Michael gathers his. Who do you think Satan gathers? Why would it necessarily be just spirits and resurrected beings?

[Michelle]

I think that there is something to be said about MMPs in regards to this topic.

What is an MMP?

Multiple Mortal Probations -- theory that we have "eternal rounds" or "eternal lives" = multiple mortal experiences. There is an interesting thread on the idea on this site somewhere.

Thank you. For the record, I reject such notions.

[brianj]

Infant Mortality Rate by Country

Those are some pretty stark numbers. Afghanistan is presently the highest, with about 11% of all live births not surviving. There are no numbers for deaths under the age of 8, and these are only modern numbers. Take a look at the historical table, but it only goes back to the 1950's. Afghanistan back then had a 28% infant death rate. One can only imagine what it was like during the Middle Ages worldwide. Even just 100 years ago was a very different medical scene than it is now.

I think those of us who reach the Celestial Kingdom by growing to adulthood and proving ourselves faithful in mortality will be the minority there. I've wondered if we're actually the cursed ones who flunked the first exam but somehow got a do-over.

And keep in mind that infant mortality only counts those who die from birth to one year. How many more died within the next seven years?

[brianj]

Satan is only bound for a thousand years because no one will obey him. He can still try to tempt, but they refuse to be tempted. The change "twinkling" comes after one has grown "to the age of a tree" not at birth. If we could be tempted in the pre-existence why can't we be tempted in the Millennium even after we are resurrected, especially those resurrected last, the most wicked? Where do the Sons of Perdition come from, but those who know and then refuse Christ? We know Satan gathers his forces at the end and Michael gathers his. Who do you think Satan gathers? Why would it necessarily be just spirits and resurrected beings?

I am not going to research it right now, but I recall a quote stating that satan will be bound so he is not able to tempt for a thousand years.

I worry about the beginning of the Millennium because when it begins and satan is no longer able to tempt I will know that every lustful thought and every sinful impulse is coming from my own mind. I am very disturbed each time this happens to me in a temple for the same reason, as we are taught that wicked spirits are not permitted to accompany us into temples.

[Michelle]

Satan is only bound for a thousand years because no one will obey him. He can still try to tempt, but they refuse to be tempted. The change "twinkling" comes after one has grown "to the age of a tree" not at birth. If we could be tempted in the pre-existence why can't we be tempted in the Millennium even after we are resurrected, especially those resurrected last, the most wicked? Where do the Sons of Perdition come from, but those who know and then refuse Christ? We know Satan gathers his forces at the end and Michael gathers his. Who do you think Satan gathers? Why would it necessarily be just spirits and resurrected beings?

I am not going to research it right now, but I recall a quote stating that satan will be bound so he is not able to tempt for a thousand years.

I worry about the beginning of the Millennium because when it begins and satan is no longer able to tempt I will know that every lustful thought and every sinful impulse is coming from my own mind. I am very disturbed each time this happens to me in a temple for the same reason, as we are taught that wicked spirits are not permitted to accompany us into temples.

D&C 45,(another D&C as well I can't remember, maybe 110?) and Revelation 20.

[Dave62]

Nah! I don't mind a bit of opposition...

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

[Alaris]

I think that there is something to be said about MMPs in regards to this topic.

What is an MMP?

Multiple Mortal Probations -- theory that we have "eternal rounds" or "eternal lives" = multiple mortal experiences. There is an interesting thread on the idea on this site somewhere.

Thank you. For the record, I reject such notions.

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

[Yahtzee]

A great many people died before reaching their eighth birthday, and the church teaches these are going to qualify for the Celestial kingdom because they didn't become old enough to sin. Obviously we don't have detailed enough records to know exactly what the overall mortality rate was, but I would not be surprised to learn that a majority of those born on Earth didn't live to age 8.

I concur. I actually feel like I know something about this! In my college history classes (sorry, that's my only reference- if it helps, that was my major) we were taught it was probably between 50% and 90%. In Greece children weren't even named until after the first week (or sometimes 3 months) because so many died. Then they weren't introduced to society until 2 because so many died. Those who were deformed or sickly were left to the elements.
Once I had my own kids and realized all that can go wrong, I began to think there would be more in the celestial kingdom than I previously thought. 3/4 of my children would not be here if they were born 100 years ago. The number goes up a lot if the Lord includes miscarriages too.

[Yahtzee]

What is an MMP?

Multiple Mortal Probations -- theory that we have "eternal rounds" or "eternal lives" = multiple mortal experiences. There is an interesting thread on the idea on this site somewhere.

Thank you. For the record, I reject such notions.

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

I always thought it meant they were resurrected into their child body which would grow into adulthood. So if it's the same body, it would not be MMP, right? But now I wonder what the cutoff is?? If a 90 year old isn't resurrected into a 90yr old body, why is a child in a child body?? Anyone have an answer??
And yeah, it doesn't seem fair. I was sad when I turned 8 because my free pass was gone. I suppose that's where the atonement comes into play. God isn't fair, but He is just.

[Alaris]

Multiple Mortal Probations -- theory that we have "eternal rounds" or "eternal lives" = multiple mortal experiences. There is an interesting thread on the idea on this site somewhere.

Thank you. For the record, I reject such notions.

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

I always thought it meant they were resurrected into their child body which would grow into adulthood. So if it's the same body, it would not be MMP, right? But now I wonder what the cutoff is?? If a 90 year old isn't resurrected into a 90yr old body, why is a child in a child body?? Anyone have an answer??
And yeah, it doesn't seem fair. I was sad when I turned 8 because my free pass was gone. I suppose that's where the atonement comes into play. God isn't fair, but He is just.

MMP is the answer. The millennium is a time for only Israel to be born and do its proxy work which is why it can all be accomplished in 1000 years as it takes 6000 to incarnate Israel along with all the second estate beings.

[Yahtzee]

Thank you. For the record, I reject such notions.

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

I always thought it meant they were resurrected into their child body which would grow into adulthood. So if it's the same body, it would not be MMP, right? But now I wonder what the cutoff is?? If a 90 year old isn't resurrected into a 90yr old body, why is a child in a child body?? Anyone have an answer??
And yeah, it doesn't seem fair. I was sad when I turned 8 because my free pass was gone. I suppose that's where the atonement comes into play. God isn't fair, but He is just.

MMP is the answer. The millennium is a time for only Israel to be born and do its proxy work which is why it can all be accomplished in 1000 years as it takes 6000 to incarnate Israel along with all the second estate beings.

But if they're resurrected they aren't reborn. Maybe I need to go read that other thread about MMP as I may not be understanding it.

[Alaris]

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

I always thought it meant they were resurrected into their child body which would grow into adulthood. So if it's the same body, it would not be MMP, right? But now I wonder what the cutoff is?? If a 90 year old isn't resurrected into a 90yr old body, why is a child in a child body?? Anyone have an answer??
And yeah, it doesn't seem fair. I was sad when I turned 8 because my free pass was gone. I suppose that's where the atonement comes into play. God isn't fair, but He is just.

MMP is the answer. The millennium is a time for only Israel to be born and do its proxy work which is why it can all be accomplished in 1000 years as it takes 6000 to incarnate Israel along with all the second estate beings.

But if they're resurrected they aren't reborn. Maybe I need to go read that other thread about MMP as I may not be understanding it.

We don't know all the rules of resurrection, and there are tons of clues that it is far more complicated than the primary lesson about the plan of salvation with the three kingdoms drawn as circles and a line drawn as the final judgement between this world and those - I need to write an article dedicated to just MMP. Here is one clue:

" you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." Jospeh Smith King Follet Sermon

Here is another:

Alma 40: 19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.
20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.
21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Eternal lives - plural

D&C 132: 24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

Fourth use of overcometh given by the Lord to the fourth angel over the fourth church (congregation of souls)

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

The morning star is given to those who are the noble and great ones to rule and administer a new creation with a new Son - this is why we must become spiritual begotten sons and daughters of Christ - so that he will take us with Him as He ascends to be Father over His Son or Sons as the case may be.

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Then there's Alma 13:

Alma 13:
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—

9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

Don't we teach that it is difficult to repent after losing our bodies? ;) ;)

Alma 34:33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

and on and on - it's all over the place in the scriptures ... hiding in plain sight.

[Michelle]

I always thought it meant they were resurrected into their child body which would grow into adulthood. So if it's the same body, it would not be MMP, right? But now I wonder what the cutoff is?? If a 90 year old isn't resurrected into a 90yr old body, why is a child in a child body?? Anyone have an answer??
And yeah, it doesn't seem fair. I was sad when I turned 8 because my free pass was gone. I suppose that's where the atonement comes into play. God isn't fair, but He is just.

MMP is the answer. The millennium is a time for only Israel to be born and do its proxy work which is why it can all be accomplished in 1000 years as it takes 6000 to incarnate Israel along with all the second estate beings.

But if they're resurrected they aren't reborn. Maybe I need to go read that other thread about MMP as I may not be understanding it.

We don't know all the rules of resurrection, and there are tons of clues that it is far more complicated than the primary lesson about the plan of salvation with the three kingdoms drawn as circles and a line drawn as the final judgement between this world and those - I need to write an article dedicated to just MMP. Here is one clue:

" you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." Jospeh Smith King Follet Sermon

Here is another:

Alma 40: 19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.
20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.
21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Eternal lives - plural

D&C 132: 24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

Fourth use of overcometh given by the Lord to the fourth angel over the fourth church (congregation of souls)

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

The morning star is given to those who are the noble and great ones to rule and administer a new creation with a new Son - this is why we must become spiritual begotten sons and daughters of Christ - so that he will take us with Him as He ascends to be Father over His Son or Sons as the case may be.

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Then there's Alma 13:

Alma 13:
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—

9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

Don't we teach that it is difficult to repent after losing our bodies? ;) ;)

Alma 34:33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

and on and on - it's all over the place in the scriptures ... hiding in plain sight.

I promise I mean no disrespect, but I couldn't help thinking you must be tired after all the wresting of the scriptures. LOL.

I don't see the same thing you do in the scriptures you quoted. I won't address them all but eternal lives-plural- to me could mean husband and wife (two separate beings) sharing their eternal life together. It could also be that there are other states of existence, levels of progress, but I don't see anything to support another mortal experience. Just a progression like baby, to toddler, to child, to young adult, to adult, to middle aged, to elderly, to resurrected being, to one calling or another, etc to becoming a God. No stepping back, but not full grown until the end.

[brianj]

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

Who ever said that life is fair? You could just as easily find a complaint from the woman unable to have children who has to stare at families with several children every week at church. Or the woman who never found a companion and sorrowfully considers that at least the childless woman has a husband.

If we were been born to Nephite parents just after the Savior visited we would not have to worry about falling short of the Celestial kingdom. The same applies if we were born during the Millennium or if we died before age eight. I can only assume that this is where mercy comes to play, that blessings beyond what we can recognize now will come to us for enduring these trials.

In church we are told that all that we suffer, sacrifice, or lose will be made up to us one day. I have difficulty accepting this because I can't comprehend it. Until I have more insight into this I will just have to accept that it is true.

[Alaris]

MMP is the answer. The millennium is a time for only Israel to be born and do its proxy work which is why it can all be accomplished in 1000 years as it takes 6000 to incarnate Israel along with all the second estate beings.

But if they're resurrected they aren't reborn. Maybe I need to go read that other thread about MMP as I may not be understanding it.

We don't know all the rules of resurrection, and there are tons of clues that it is far more complicated than the primary lesson about the plan of salvation with the three kingdoms drawn as circles and a line drawn as the final judgement between this world and those - I need to write an article dedicated to just MMP. Here is one clue:

" you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." Jospeh Smith King Follet Sermon

Here is another:

Alma 40: 19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.
20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.
21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Eternal lives - plural

D&C 132: 24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

Fourth use of overcometh given by the Lord to the fourth angel over the fourth church (congregation of souls)

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

The morning star is given to those who are the noble and great ones to rule and administer a new creation with a new Son - this is why we must become spiritual begotten sons and daughters of Christ - so that he will take us with Him as He ascends to be Father over His Son or Sons as the case may be.

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Then there's Alma 13:

Alma 13:
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—

8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—

9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

Don't we teach that it is difficult to repent after losing our bodies? ;) ;)

Alma 34:33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

and on and on - it's all over the place in the scriptures ... hiding in plain sight.

I promise I mean no disrespect, but I couldn't help thinking you must be tired after all the wresting of the scriptures. LOL.

I don't see the same thing you do in the scriptures you quoted. I won't address them all but eternal lives-plural- to me could mean husband and wife (two separate beings) sharing their eternal life together. It could also be that there are other states of existence, levels of progress, but I don't see anything to support another mortal experience. Just a progression like baby, to toddler, to child, to young adult, to adult, to middle aged, to elderly, to resurrected being, to one calling or another, etc to becoming a God. No stepping back, but not full grown until the end.

Sure maybe you're right. I can respect your interpretation of scripture without LOLs or accusations of wresting though I'm not sure how that word applies. So you believe there are two paths to Godhood as do many if not most LDS. There is the path that Jesus and the Father took and there is the path we take. So what Joseph Smith said about "the same as all gods have done before you" must have been wrong. If there is one path then there are at least two mortal probations. And if there are two then are there more?

Mocking belongs in the large in spacious not in a civil discussion of scripture and eternal truth. Additionally once you've mocked someone you've attached your pride to your position and the possibility of learning something new flies like pieces of glass. I know it's easy to mock behind the warm comfort of anonymity but it is unbecoming of a disciple of Jesus Christ who has covenanted to witness and comfort not mock and condescend.

[Alaris]

If children who died are raised later isn't that MMP? To grow to be as old as a tree in the millennium in a world where nobody listens to the devil doesn't sound very fair to those of us who have had to trudge through telestial sludge. So who is born during the millennium? What did they do or not do to warrant being born during a time when Satan is bound whether bound by chains or by refusal?

Who ever said that life is fair? You could just as easily find a complaint from the woman unable to have children who has to stare at families with several children every week at church. Or the woman who never found a companion and sorrowfully considers that at least the childless woman has a husband.

If we were been born to Nephite parents just after the Savior visited we would not have to worry about falling short of the Celestial kingdom. The same applies if we were born during the Millennium or if we died before age eight. I can only assume that this is where mercy comes to play, that blessings beyond what we can recognize now will come to us for enduring these trials.

In church we are told that all that we suffer, sacrifice, or lose will be made up to us one day. I have difficulty accepting this because I can't comprehend it. Until I have more insight into this I will just have to accept that it is true.

I certainly don't say life is fair. Fairness is a term the left loves to use. The question was meant to help others think about why a perfectly just God (who is fair) would reserve some spirits to be born in a world without telestial muck. MMP is why. God knows us better than we know ourselves is of course true but is an excuse to not have to think about it any deeper and seek out those mysteries. If that were the only reason then Justice would indeed be robbed.

Some don't like thinking.

[passionflower]

Nah! I don't mind a bit of opposition...

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

Let's all remind ourselves that Jesus Christ, the greatest of all, did not get to be born during the Millennium.

[Michelle]

Sure maybe you're right. I can respect your interpretation of scripture without LOLs or accusations of wresting though I'm not sure how that word applies. So you believe there are two paths to Godhood as do many if not most LDS. There is the path that Jesus and the Father took and there is the path we take. So what Joseph Smith said about "the same as all gods have done before you" must have been wrong. If there is one path then there are at least two mortal probations. And if there are two then are there more?

Mocking belongs in the large in spacious not in a civil discussion of scripture and eternal truth. Additionally once you've mocked someone you've attached your pride to your position and the possibility of learning something new flies like pieces of glass. I know it's easy to mock behind the warm comfort of anonymity but it is unbecoming of a disciple of Jesus Christ who has covenanted to witness and comfort not mock and condescend.

Funny how even though I assured you I wasn't mocking you, you managed to hear it. Still not mocking, but not going to discuss this further with you. I do think it is funny your claim of anonymity. My name IS Michelle. Is your name Alaris?