Priestcraft and spiritual wifery in the Mormon remnant movement?

[Silver Pie]

I have no interest in submitting my own views. It seemed like there needed to be more light shed on the topic. If the post was already shared in a previous page of this thread, please forgive me. Carry on.

[AI2.0]

I have no interest in submitting my own views. It seemed like there needed to be more light shed on the topic. If the post was already shared in a previous page of this thread, please forgive me. Carry on.

I suspect your position it to believe Denver Snuffer's explanation. We have read these statements by him, but I think you should know that others have contradicted some of the things Denver Snuffer has said about this. Snuffer seems to be unaware that John Doe was still continuing this behavior even recently. He did not stay for the meeting and was not there when the man's wife was called on the phone and she was able to get her exhusband to admit his lies. Clearly he had been lying to Snuffer.
Also, I for one never thought that Snuffer was teaching 'soul bonding', but I'm quite certain that there are those in his movement who believe it and some who apparently use it as a way to justify sexual relations outside of marriage.

I will reiterate that I think Denver Snuffer needs to accept a large part of the blame for this. He believed the lies of a man who was deceitful, he didn't want to know about it, because he didn't want it to taint his scripture project. He knew too many knew about this man and what he was doing, so something had to be done, he wanted it taken care of, but wanted the council to exonerate the man, not remove his priesthood certificate. The council heard the evidence and made the decision, but the decision caused a new set of problems for them. There are two sides and they don't agree. This can't be glossed over or covered up, unless those in the remnant don't want to look at the evidence and facts.

[KFarber]

X( https://bringingtolighthiddenthings.wor ... s-council/

is the statement from the Women’s Council held on July 31, 2017.

http://peace-in-paradise.blogspot.com/2 ... -2017.html

This is the quote from Preserving the Restoration page 511-512, that was used as the given guidelines at the time to organize the council.

“If a man’s worthiness to function is called into question, then a conference can be convened to deal with the question. In removing authority, at least two witnesses should speak against the accused, and he should be allowed to speak on his behalf and call such witnesses as he chooses. Men can be witnesses, but only women are allowed to vote. Removal should be by unanimous vote of the women present, with at least 12 votes against a man to end his authority to act in the fellowship community. As for his family, he is free to do as he chooses, but he cannot act in the community until restored by the vote of a conference of that community.”

In prayerfully considering how to work out the details, it was given to have 15 women. This was in the event that if one of women was unable to attend , or if after evidence someone was undecided and could not vote, there would still be 12 to have a vote. A unanimous vote of at least 12 was needed to remove his authority to act in the fellowships.

This process was put in place to bring balance and accountability to those men performing ordinances, and to perform the ordinances in righteousness unto the Lord.

We are grateful for the women who took the time and effort to do this. It was a difficult process for everyone involved. It has been a sacrifice. Blessings and love to all of them.

[AI2.0]

Thanks for sharing that kfarber, I saw that yesterday but didn't have time to post it. Here is the statement from the person who brought the information forward which created the necessity for the women's council-- for those interested:

Women's Council July 31, 2017
I am responsible for starting the investigation that led to a women's council on July 31, 2017, for a man. Because of gossip, rumors, and false reports, I feel imposed upon to tell the story from my perspective.

In the Doctrine of Christ 2016 Boise Conference, Denver said,

“In the tenth talk, given in Phoenix two years ago, you were warned about false spirits, as happened in Kirtland, which you were warned would come among us. That warning has proven true. False spirits have mislead some into foolish errors. I am astonished at vain, foolish and prideful ideas that are anti-Christ, degrading and dark, but have been welcomed by some. Remember Pharaoh’s magicians also enchanted their rods to become snakes (Exo. 7:11-12), and conjured frogs to mimic the sign given by God through Moses and Aaron (Exo. 8:7.) Pharaoh’s heart was hardened by these imitations. Do not let yours become so likewise.

“For two years I have watched, attended some of your meetings, gathered reports, and tried to let you stand and display your strength and understanding. Even God left Adam and Eve in the Garden, and allowed Lucifer the common enemy to tempt and try them, promising to return again to visit them. They transgressed His commandment, and He provided the means to cover their shame, repent and return. He also promised to later send messengers. But God did not “babysit” Adam and Eve, informing them that it was given unto them to choose, even when He forbids something. God is the same now as in the beginning. We are all required to display our understanding, obedience and prove our strength.

“People have come among you preaching falsehoods, and inviting others to follow false spirits: Adulterers and adulteresses who justify sins, and mock the commandment “thou shalt not commit adultery.” (Exo. 20:14.) False claimants are pretending to seal others up to eternal life, changing the ordinances and introducing foolish and vain ideas borrowed from pagans and heathen, who do not know Christ nor His righteousness. I do not oppose them directly by debate or counter-argument. I declare the truth and leave it for everyone to decide between clearly opposing teachings. If people cannot discern, then they will need to learn from sad experience to choose between good and evil, perhaps only coming to understand after their destruction in this world.

“There are those who use well-reasoned arguments to expound their understanding of scripture who have declared with certainty it is impossible for what I say to be true. These voices come from both the fearful anonymous and proud academics. I do not respond to either.

“In a letter on August 24, 1834, Joseph Smith described the only way falsehoods could be avoided. The responsibility rests—then and now—on believers. He wrote, “If the Saints are very humble, very watchful and very prayerful, that few will not be deceived by those who have not authority to teach, or who have not the Spirit to teach according to the power of the Holy Ghost, in the scriptures.” (JS Papers, Documents Vol. 4, p. 117.)

“Only the truth is at issue. Individuals other than Christ do not matter. The message I have and do preach is from the Lord. His sheep hear His voice. If they accept it as His, then deceivers, false spirits and men’s learning are powerless to destroy faith in Him. He promised He “will take care of our flocks” (D&C 88:72) and therefore it will be Him, and not me, who will keep His flock shepherded.” (Denver Snuffer – Doctrine of Christ Conference Boise 2016)

A man's worthiness to function in performing priesthood ordinances was called into question, and so a council of women was called to deal with the question. It says in Preserving the Restoration page 511-512, “If a man's worthiness to function is called into question, then a conference can be convened to deal with the question. In removing authority, at least two witnesses should speak against the accused, and he should be allowed to speak on his behalf and call such witnesses as he chooses. Men can be witnesses, but only women are allowed to vote. Removal should be by unanimous vote of the women present, with at least 12 votes against a man to end his authority to act in the fellowship community. As for his family, he is free to do as he chooses, but he cannot act in the community until restored by the vote of a conference of that community.”

As a council we voted to keep the man's identity confidential as we feel repentance and forgiveness is a private matter. After hearing testimonies of witnesses, it was made clear that we needed to act that we may know the truth, that we may chase darkness from among us.

It was on May 11, 2017 I learned about teachings and practices that are alarming. I have spent the last three months talking to witnesses and gathering information. There are more witnesses than the ones who spoke before the council. It has taken time for the witnesses who have testified to gather the courage to share their story before a women's council. When we had a sufficient number of witnesses, two primary witnesses and five secondary witnesses testified before the council of their involvement with this man.

I do not feel the necessity to rehearse all the details presented to the council. But after hearing testimonies for almost six hours and deliberating for many more hours, a council of fifteen women reached a unanimous decision to remove the sustaining vote for a man to perform public priesthood ordinances. This is the letter written by the women's council sent from my email July 31, 2017, 11:56 p.m.

Dear ____,

After prayerful consideration of all the facts and testimonies from the witnesses and yourself, the council of fifteen women has voted unanimously to rescind your authority to use priesthood outside your family on the grounds of priestcraft. Further details will be provided.

When you desire reinstatement of your authority, it must be considered by the same council of at least twelve of the fifteen women, and requires seven of the twelve to agree upon your reinstatement, which can occur at any time. We pray for your reinstatement.

During this period of suspension, nothing affects your duties and responsibilities within your own family.

With wisdom and love,

. . .

To all those who are tempted to judge and point an accusing finger, I ask you to look at your own weakness and know that all of our weakness should and will come into the light. Treat others as you want to be treated in your weakness.

In the Book of Mormon we see an example of true repentance.

And now it came to pass that Alma began from this time forward, to teach the people, and those who were with Alma at the time the angel appeared unto them: travelling round about through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen, and preaching the word of God in much tribulation, being greatly persecuted by those who were unbelievers, being smitten by many of them; but notwithstanding all this, they did impart much consolation to the church, confirming their faith, and exhorting them with long suffering and much travail, to keep the commandments of God. And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah. And they travelled throughout all the land of Zarahemla, and among all the people who were under the reign of king Mosiah, zealously striving to repair all the injuries which they had done to the church: confessing all their sins, and publishing all the things which they had seen, and explaining the prophecies and the scriptures to all who desired to hear them; and thus they were instruments in the hands of God, in bringing many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, to the knowledge of their Redeemer. And how blessed are they! For they did publish peace; they did publish good tidings of good; and they did declare unto the people that the Lord reigneth.

Alma and the Sons of Mosiah were not afraid of confessing all their sins throughout all the land. We do not think less of them because they made mistakes. We all make mistakes, but Jesus tells us to become as a little child. Little children are open and transparent, but as they grow older, they are taught by satan, “Quick! Hide!” Alma and the Sons of Mosiah repentance was real, and they have become some of our greatest Book of Mormon heroes.

With Love and Concern,

Jennifer Willis

http://peace-in-paradise.blogspot.com/2 ... -2017.html

[Rose Garden]

I have a friend who told me this Sunday that she has been very close to this situation and could have given a favorable testimony at the council but was not given the opportunity to testify. She said that the person who had organized the council has talked with her several times but would not listen to what she had to say. She said that the people who were chosen for the council and testimonies were picked because of their leanings toward the wanted outcome of the council. Perhaps it would be best to leave the matter alone since we have no ability to truly determine what went on.

[cestlavive]

Contrary to what is being circulated, this was not a council of women gathered together to call out "spiritually bonded soulmates". This ENTIRE council was about PRIESTCRAFT. Priestcraft is using God's name to get power, authority, women, money, gain, popularity and control by using means of lying, deceit and manipulation.

[MelT]

I have a friend who told me this Sunday that she has been very close to this situation and could have given a favorable testimony at the council but was not given the opportunity to testify. She said that the person who had organized the council has talked with her several times but would not listen to what she had to say. She said that the people who were chosen for the council and testimonies were picked because of their leanings toward the wanted outcome of the council. Perhaps it would be best to leave the matter alone since we have no ability to truly determine what went on.

I have a friend who told me this Sunday that she has been very close to this situation and could have given a favorable testimony at the council but was not given the opportunity to testify. She said that the person who had organized the council has talked with her several times but would not listen to what she had to say. She said that the people who were chosen for the council and testimonies were picked because of their leanings toward the wanted outcome of the council. Perhaps it would be best to leave the matter alone since we have no ability to truly determine what went on.

I don't know if this is true, but someone just posted this in the comments of bringing hidden things to light.

To all. I am one of three who has been accused of teaching the bonded soul theory. I am on this blog to state I have been misrepresented. The words used in current blogs twisted my involvement in an attempt to redirect any negative focus on the scripture project and covenant. In a brilliant strategy, the bloggers have put forth a theory of John Doe being victimized by a woman who taught him a concept...I have never believed or practiced spiritual wifery. I had a belief that when we are created, we are created in pairs of male/female, which is referred to as soulmates and at some point in their eternal progression they come together as sealed couples. That’s it. Never did i promote adultery or polygamy or spiritual wifery, quite to the contrary. I’ve always fought against it. However, without breaking confidences or divulging names, my role was that I said that I felt he and another person were soulmates. The most stupid thing I could ever do and I’m humiliated that I said it and I will never make that mistake again. But I was not out teaching these concepts. I said something out of order. But I did not force him into action and warned him several times not to. I made a huge mistake but does that mistake rise to the level of victimizing? But it gets even crazier because he himself was telling other married people they were actually bonded to someone else and this was before I ever met him. So how could I possibly be victimizing someone who is actively involved in doing the very thing I’m accused of?

No one forced him to take action. I did not steal his free agency but the bloggers now want to clear him of all accountability and wanting to present him as the victim. So again, let’s blame Eve and her daughter’s for all the mistakes of mankind.

God help us all. I wish there was more truth and integrity but we are living in hell and dealing with imperfect people. Kindness and love and accountability needs to rule not selfish desires. i write this anonymously because I do not want to experience the same cruelty that has been directed to the owners of this blog by those claiming a desire for Zion. The only solution is for everyone to take accountability for their own mistakes, their own hurtful words and actions, and to offer apologies to those they have offended or hurt. To stand by and do nothing proves we are a prideful people. John Doe I am asking you to begin the healing process by offering your sincere apologies. You other bloggers might want to do the same. If we can’t swallow our pride, and actually humble ourselves, we do not qualify for gods good mercy.

https://bringingtolighthiddenthings.wor ... comment-49

John Doe has been involved in serious sin for years. The timing of him being called to accountability had unfortunate timing for Denver's designs, who has been designing for years. Hopefully this might help a few see the reality of Denver's deviance and departure from Christ's real church, but i suspect that those who have followed him will continue to do so.

Hi,
I am new to this forum, someone sent me some comments and thought I might contribute.
Maybe I can help here....but I cannot quite navigate around here yet! I am trying to reply to Meili but I cannot find the original one!!!
I was a witness.
I helped compose a list of potential witnesses. Many of them did not want to participate from the beginning, because we were functioning with the understanding that this was all going to be made public--all of our names, as well as John Doe. When potential people were told this they declined. It is not needful to hear of someones story if it is not going to be used. There were many people to talk to. If she was a favorable witness for John Doe, it would be up to him to secure her as a witness.
As far as the counsel, there were some chosen that were unaware of the situation at all, so they could be unbiased. Others were chosen intentionally because they were sympathetic to John Doe. They tried to be extremely fair! Of course the desired outcome was for truth to be discovered and the priestcraft exposed so that others would not fall prey to the tactics being used.
People needed to be aware of the deception and priestcraft used by him and also others. Many good people are being led astray because they are being told it is of God. Would you want someone going among your friends, or to your daughter trying to convince them to participate in special ordinances because they were supposedly approved of God and Christ was standing there smiling that they had found each other?! The women's counsel needed to happen and the practices had to be exposed. It is destroying marriages, families and trust among friends. If there were no evidence, we would not need to go through this difficult exercise.

[AI2.0]

I have a friend who told me this Sunday that she has been very close to this situation and could have given a favorable testimony at the council but was not given the opportunity to testify. She said that the person who had organized the council has talked with her several times but would not listen to what she had to say. She said that the people who were chosen for the council and testimonies were picked because of their leanings toward the wanted outcome of the council. Perhaps it would be best to leave the matter alone since we have no ability to truly determine what went on.

I have a friend who told me this Sunday that she has been very close to this situation and could have given a favorable testimony at the council but was not given the opportunity to testify. She said that the person who had organized the council has talked with her several times but would not listen to what she had to say. She said that the people who were chosen for the council and testimonies were picked because of their leanings toward the wanted outcome of the council. Perhaps it would be best to leave the matter alone since we have no ability to truly determine what went on.

I don't know if this is true, but someone just posted this in the comments of bringing hidden things to light.

To all. I am one of three who has been accused of teaching the bonded soul theory. I am on this blog to state I have been misrepresented. The words used in current blogs twisted my involvement in an attempt to redirect any negative focus on the scripture project and covenant. In a brilliant strategy, the bloggers have put forth a theory of John Doe being victimized by a woman who taught him a concept...I have never believed or practiced spiritual wifery. I had a belief that when we are created, we are created in pairs of male/female, which is referred to as soulmates and at some point in their eternal progression they come together as sealed couples. That’s it. Never did i promote adultery or polygamy or spiritual wifery, quite to the contrary. I’ve always fought against it. However, without breaking confidences or divulging names, my role was that I said that I felt he and another person were soulmates. The most stupid thing I could ever do and I’m humiliated that I said it and I will never make that mistake again. But I was not out teaching these concepts. I said something out of order. But I did not force him into action and warned him several times not to. I made a huge mistake but does that mistake rise to the level of victimizing? But it gets even crazier because he himself was telling other married people they were actually bonded to someone else and this was before I ever met him. So how could I possibly be victimizing someone who is actively involved in doing the very thing I’m accused of?

No one forced him to take action. I did not steal his free agency but the bloggers now want to clear him of all accountability and wanting to present him as the victim. So again, let’s blame Eve and her daughter’s for all the mistakes of mankind.

God help us all. I wish there was more truth and integrity but we are living in hell and dealing with imperfect people. Kindness and love and accountability needs to rule not selfish desires. i write this anonymously because I do not want to experience the same cruelty that has been directed to the owners of this blog by those claiming a desire for Zion. The only solution is for everyone to take accountability for their own mistakes, their own hurtful words and actions, and to offer apologies to those they have offended or hurt. To stand by and do nothing proves we are a prideful people. John Doe I am asking you to begin the healing process by offering your sincere apologies. You other bloggers might want to do the same. If we can’t swallow our pride, and actually humble ourselves, we do not qualify for gods good mercy.

https://bringingtolighthiddenthings.wor ... comment-49

John Doe has been involved in serious sin for years. The timing of him being called to accountability had unfortunate timing for Denver's designs, who has been designing for years. Hopefully this might help a few see the reality of Denver's deviance and departure from Christ's real church, but i suspect that those who have followed him will continue to do so.

Hi,
I am new to this forum, someone sent me some comments and thought I might contribute.
Maybe I can help here....but I cannot quite navigate around here yet! I am trying to reply to Meili but I cannot find the original one!!!
I was a witness.
I helped compose a list of potential witnesses. Many of them did not want to participate from the beginning, because we were functioning with the understanding that this was all going to be made public--all of our names, as well as John Doe. When potential people were told this they declined. It is not needful to hear of someones story if it is not going to be used. There were many people to talk to. If she was a favorable witness for John Doe, it would be up to him to secure her as a witness.
As far as the counsel, there were some chosen that were unaware of the situation at all, so they could be unbiased. Others were chosen intentionally because they were sympathetic to John Doe. They tried to be extremely fair! Of course the desired outcome was for truth to be discovered and the priestcraft exposed so that others would not fall prey to the tactics being used.
People needed to be aware of the deception and priestcraft used by him and also others. Many good people are being led astray because they are being told it is of God. Would you want someone going among your friends, or to your daughter trying to convince them to participate in special ordinances because they were supposedly approved of God and Christ was standing there smiling that they had found each other?! The women's counsel needed to happen and the practices had to be exposed. It is destroying marriages, families and trust among friends. If there were no evidence, we would not need to go through this difficult exercise.

I just saw your comments. Thanks for sharing what you know on this.

I have to say, while I'm not a Remnant member and I am critical of their decision to break with the LDS faith and start their own 'movement', I don't doubt that most involved are very sincere and truly want to be righteous and follow God's commandments. That's why I've been so surprised by the controversy this has caused. I agree, I don't see how any person who came from an LDS background would look the other way to some man using his influence to manipulate their wife or daughter or friend into a sexual relationship with the claim that Jesus approved of an illicit affair, because they were some kind of soul mates in a past life. This kind of garbage is definitely the practice of priestcraft in one of it's basest forms. What I find very sad is the pushback the council received for simply doing what they'd been asked to do.

I think the idea of judging someone's personal revelations and teachings is part of the problem--Snuffer's initial teachings were always for a loose, fluidy non-organized community, but over time, with the fellowships and the beginnings of correllating what are accceptable beliefs and what are not, within the Remnant (with Snuffer's essay on polygamy being an example), the council was simply doing what was proscribed in Snuffers' book 'Preserving the restoration'.

Suffice it to say, if they are going to try to control behavior among their members, then someone using mystical beliefs as a cover to sanctioned promiscuity, ought to be the first they try to stamp out.

[shadow]

Many good people are being led astray because they are being told it is of God.

That's the Snuffer movement in a nut shell.

[AI2.0]

I'm also going to post this recent twist in the saga of John Doe and the Remnant movement since it ought to be shared on this thread and also in case they try to scrub it from their websites later on;

This is from Adrian Larsen's blog "To the Remnant". Larsen seems to function as a de facto '1st counselor' to Denver Snuffer' and he has shared two statements on his blog in regards to the John Doe hearing--both statements he posted for others undermined the Women's council and their decision. This one is worse because four of the council members retracted their vote. Note that the very first blog on this, that brought it to light, said that 'pressure' was being put on the women to change their vote. Apparently the pressure worked on four of them.

Here is the statement posted on August 28, 2017

On July 31, 2017, a women’s council was convened for the purpose of considering the removal of a man’s priesthood sustaining certificate. To protect the man’s privacy, we will call him John Doe in this statement. The result of that council was a vote by 15 women to remove Brother Doe’s certificate.

We are three four of the 15 women who sat on that council, and we can no longer keep silent about some important factors surrounding this decision. For reasons that we’ll explain, we hereby retract our votes and proclaim our belief that Brother Doe still holds a valid priesthood sustaining certificate (which I, Tausha Larsen, originally signed at his sustaining.)

The council should be considered invalid, due to misrepresentation, withholding of information, and failure to follow proper procedure. The Lord has imposed a requirement of privacy on these proceedings (Answer and Covenant, p. 8) which we intend to respect. Therefore, we will speak only about procedures, rather than specific details.

Because this is the first women’s council of this type, we recognize this proceeding will set a precedent for future councils for many years. It therefore becomes even more important to recognize our error and correct our course now, while it is still possible to do so. We do not want to see these errors become enshrined as precedents for future abuse.

As Joseph Smith stated, “If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong we may go wrong, and it will be a hard matter to get right.” (King Follet Discourse)

On August 3, we became aware of important information, bearing directly on this council, that had not been considered properly. This new information shed new light on the council proceedings. Since then, the three of us have labored unceasingly to undo the injustice that was done. This statement is part of our repentance for the wrongs we were involved in. We wish to proclaim our repentance before the heavens so that we may enter into the coming covenant with clean hands.

We hope that by articulating our mistakes and missteps, the same mistakes will not be made again. We pray that the Lord will forgive us for our initial misguided decision, and that by our dissent, He will see our desire to do better.

We feel it necessary to address the following procedural issues we believe deem the council invalid:

1. Prior Repentance. The charges brought against Brother Doe stemmed from events that happened at least a year and a half ago. He has since renounced these sins, and has stopped teaching the false doctrines he was charged for. He tried to resolve things privately with those who willingly participated with him in his sins, but his attempts were met with silence or rebuffed. He was left to seek repentance solely with the Lord. He recognized his errors and has grieved sorely because of them. He has prayed for those he’s harmed to be healed, restored and given peace.

He begged to have the opportunity to make amends privately, in lieu of a council and asked how to make that happen, but was denied by the women organizing the council. He sought and desired forgiveness in a manner consistent with the Lord’s teachings. He confessed his sins, renounced them, and forsook them. He even took the extra step of being re-baptized as a sign of his repentance. He sought to make whole those he had injured—all before the council was ever held.

This information was given to the women organizing the council, but not to the other council members until after the council was convened. Brother Doe had met the Lord’s definition of repentance:

D&C 42:88 And if thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone; and if he or she confess thou shalt be reconciled.

D&C 58:43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

Now, if a man is guilty of abusing his priesthood rights and he refuses to repent, it is certainly justified to remove his right to officiate. But when the man has met the Lord’s definition of repentance, is it still appropriate to remove his right to officiate? If so, for how long? What will be the indicator that he should be reinstated? Is this a year of probation like the LDS church? Or do we accept repentance and move on, as the Savior and Joseph Smith did? Joseph Smith would accept repentance right up until the moment of a church court, and would cancel the court if the person confessed and showed remorse prior to the proceedings.

JST Mark 9:40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.

D&C 98:40 And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt forgive him, until seventy times seven.

3 Nephi 12:7 And blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

In summary, there was no reason to call this council to address past sins for which the man had already repented, and which he was no longer committing. Charging a man with sin after the Lord has forgiven him and after baptism has cleansed him mocks both the atonement and the ordinance of baptism.

2. Manufacturing New Charges. Without going into detail, Brother Doe was initially charged with specific sins, which charges were brought by multiple witnesses, as required by the Lord. But the council failed to unanimously believe he was still guilty of these things. When it became clear the initial charges would not produce the desired result, new charges were added during the proceedings, without the required witnesses to testify. The Lord’s law of witnesses was ignored.

“In removing authority, at least two witnesses should speak against the accused.” (Preserving the Restoration, p. 511)

The final verdict for Brother Doe, which resulted in his loss of authority, did not match the original charges, and was not brought by the required two witnesses.

During the council proceedings, all facets of Brother Doe’s life were delved into in an attempt to uncover further sin, beyond the original charges. Any sin found became fair game to remove authority. It became clear the goal was to reach a specific outcome, regardless of the methods employed. Here’s an example:

3. Secret Combinations. Brother Doe and his ex-wife, who was not in attendance, both agreed that she would not participate in the council as a witness or a council member. This was stated at the beginning of the proceedings. But when it became clear the initial charges wouldn’t stick, one of the council organizers began secretly texting Brother Doe’s ex-wife, declaring to her that Brother Doe was lying. The ex-wife then told the council organizer to ask two questions, which had nothing to do with the original charges. Her additional questions uncovered further issues that ultimately resulted in his loss of authority. All this without witnesses to testify of the additional charges, and without him being able to face his accusers.

After the council, feelings were expressed that it was only the ex-wife’s questioning that brought about the desired outcome of certificate removal. She was the trump card, held in reserve, just in case the witnesses on hand failed to produce the desired loss of authority.

When the woman who organized the council, and who secretly texted the ex-wife, was questioned as to whether she began with a preferred outcome in mind, she refused to answer the question.

Changing charges, ignoring the Lord’s law of witnesses, fishing expeditions, and secret “gotcha” questions are NOT the precedents that should be set for future councils. What man, or woman for that matter, would hold up under that sort of scrutiny?

As the Savior said when confronted with the woman caught in the very act of adultery, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

How far is too far to probe? How appropriate is it to examine all parts of a man’s life, regardless of the Lord’s requirements and example? We set the terms for our own judgment by the judgment we apply to others.

3 Nephi 14:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

4. The Lord’s Requirements.

“A council of twelve women must be convened either in the man’s home fellowship among those who are acquainted with his daily walk, or in private at a general conference also including among the twelve women from the conference those who are acquainted with his daily walk, so that no injustice results.” (Answer and Covenant, p. 8)

Because Brother Doe comes from a small fellowship, it was not possible to convene a council in his home fellowship. Therefore, the council was convened thousands of miles away from his home, by one who was friends with the witnesses who wanted the council held. It was not convened at a general conference. Nobody on the council was truly familiar with his daily walk, and the participants were hand picked by the one who organized the council. I, Tausha, was asked to participate because I had signed Brother Doe’s original certificate. I was the only woman in attendance who had signed it.

I realize now the wisdom of the Lord in placing these requirements “so that no injustice results.” I repent of my error in agreeing to participate in a council that did not meet the Lord’s requirements.

5. Stacking the Deck. The Lord requires at least 12 women, and a unanimous vote, to remove authority. The organizers of this council misunderstood this requirement and got extra women in case some wouldn’t vote for removal. Therefore there were 15 women, supposedly allowing 3 to vote in favor of Brother Doe, and still providing the required 12 to remove his authority.

This was a false understanding. The Lord requires unanimity among ALL the women on the council. Whether there are 12 or 400 women, even one dissenting vote is enough for the man to retain his authority.

It appears the Lord set a very high bar for removal—much higher than the requirement for sustaining—demonstrating not only His mercy, but also the gravity of undertaking to judge another. It’s clear the Lord thinks removal should be rare, and only applied as a last resort when all else has failed and the man in question will not repent.

6. Singling Out. Brother Doe was by no means the only participant in the events that led to this council being held. Other women—and men—were willing participants in, and proponents of, the things that were happening. Similarly, other men who hold valid priesthood certificates have become embroiled in sin, but there is no investigation or effort to hold a council for them, even when they are unrepentant and it would be proper to do so.

It appears Brother Doe was specifically singled out due to his work with the scripture committee. This brings us to our next point:

7. Ulterior Motives. Soon after the council reached its verdict, some of Brother Doe’s accusers began using the council verdict as leverage to publicly and privately call into question the work of the Scripture Committee, and to call Denver Snuffer deceived because he testified in favor of Brother Doe. They manufactured and published false statements, claiming Denver Snuffer had made them.

We do not claim to know the hearts or motives of Brother Doe’s accusers or the council organizers. Only the Lord knows our hearts, and only He can judge them. But the apparent conflict of interest, and the demonstrated agenda to use the council verdict as a weapon to fight against God, combine to destroy any semblance of objectivity. It is difficult to believe there was no agenda behind these events.

8. Aftermath and Reinstatement. Brother Doe requested that the council consider reinstating his certificate. It took the council weeks to consider whether a meeting would be held for this purpose. Here are some of the details of that decision.


Due to private details that were made public against the rules of the council, Brother Doe requested that this reinstatement meeting be kept private and not be recorded. Many of the women objected to his request and believed the recording was necessary. In the end, the majority of women decided it was wise to record the proceedings.
There was an effort to require Brother Doe to organize the meeting himself if he wanted his certificate reinstated. Ultimately, this effort was dropped and the meeting was organized by the women.
Prior to the reinstatement meeting, there has been an active effort to seek out more witnesses and bring more charges against Brother Doe. It appears no amount of repentance is satisfactory. This is one of the reasons we’re making this public statement. It appears there is no other way to right the wrongs that have taken place, and are still taking place. Brother Doe has endured enough shame and abuse. There is no point in continuing to attack him. The effort to continue bringing new charges demonstrates the agenda still stands. How is it possible for him to even get a fair hearing at this point? We want no part of these continued proceedings.
The organizer of the council has taught the women that any who vote to reinstate Brother Doe’s certificate will automatically take on the responsibility to see that Brother Doe walks uprightly before the Lord in the use of his priesthood for the rest of his life, and that having this kind of accountability will prove a great blessing to Brother Doe throughout his life. We find this idea unscriptural and false. Brother Doe is accountable to the Lord, not to mortal overseers. We believe this to be an example of unrighteous dominion as stated in D&C 121.


Conclusion

At the end of the proceeding, and after many hours of deliberation, a pre-written statement was brought out for the women to sign, displaying the pre-determined intent to remove Brother Doe’s certificate. In the end, the women drafted their own written statement and all the women on the council were asked to sign it. The statement included a charge that Brother Doe was not even found guilty of. We signed it at the time to bring closure to the 12-hour-long meeting.

Even though the meeting went on for 12 hours, Brother Doe was not given adequate time to defend himself or answer questions. The majority of the time was taken by the testimonies of the accusing witnesses who Brother Doe was not allowed to question. He was only allowed a brief statement at the end of their testimonies. Questions were cut short due to time constraints. This was unfair to Brother Doe as well as the women on the council.

Now that much new information has come to light, we declare that our signatures were obtained under false pretenses, and are not now, nor were they ever, valid. A signature obtained by deception is not binding. The unanimity required by the Lord was only obtained by deceit.

As the women on the council have fiercely debated these issues over the last several weeks, some continually invoke an appeal to “wisdom” as the virtue governing their actions. Understanding that wisdom is a feminine virtue, some women have claimed it for themselves as their exclusive domain, by virtue of their gender alone, invoking it over and over as justification for severe error.

Quoting the Lord:

D&C 46:17-18 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom. To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.

Wisdom is a gift of the Spirit. It is obtained only from God, and is not at all automatic merely by virtue of being female. The Lord says ALL may be taught to be wise. This even includes men—Jesus Christ being the most wise person to ever walk this earth.

Deception and darkness drive away the Lord’s Spirit. Wisdom flees, and all that remains is “a little authority as they suppose.” Under such circumstances, we have learned by sad experience, that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, and evidently women as well, to begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Parting Thoughts

Some will contend that the original document was signed and is therefore valid. End of story. We’ve written this to demonstrate these signatures were obtained in an invalid proceeding, by employing deception, and ignoring the Lord’s requirements. We will not stand by those signatures, and declare before mortals and angels that our hands are clean from the results of this invalid council and its aftermath.

Repentance means recognizing error and correcting it. There is no shame in erring and repenting. We all err, and we all should change course when we recognize our errors.

There is a great desire among the women involved, to make this council the example moving forward, and the precedent for future councils. Consequently, there’s great hesitation, even shame, to admit severe errors were made and the council is, by rights, invalid. But making this admission will prove to be the most humble, noble, and repentant thing we can do. What a marvelous precedent will be set if we can humbly acknowledge that our first try fell flat, we got it wrong, we recognized our errors, and we changed course to align with the Lord’s teachings. This will serve as a wonderful caution and example to all future women’s councils—teaching us to proceed with humility, mercy, and fear of the Lord.

THAT is a precedent we can get behind.

Tausha Larsen
Cherry Ann Redd
Shalyce Woodard
Kay Webster

Note from Kay Webster: While I am unable to personally attest to the accuracy of all of the above statements due to my lack of complete knowledge, I am willing to sign my name to witness that I now believe I erred in voting to remove this man's priesthood certificate. This is simply an act of personal repentance for not extending mercy when there was enough reason to do so, when I myself am in need of others' and especially the Lords' mercy, and for not recognizing at the time that some errors accompanied this women's council. It is not my intent to accuse or denounce any of the other women's council members' decision or motives. I love each one of them and consider them my sisters.
Posted by Tausha Larsen at 3:18 PM

http://www.totheremnant.com/

The very sad thing about this is that apparently they didn't want to know if John Doe was using religion to manipulate women into sexual affairs. They don't want to know if he's not truly repentant, they'd rather take his behavior and his assurances of feigned remorse as they stand and ignore the whole thing. They are typical of those who get angry at those who take a stand, who put themselves out to expose the sin (because they want to stop it from continuing under cover of hiding) rather than at the actual sinner-in this case, the perpetrator. I'm surprised they put their names to this, caving under pressure and ignoring obviously non-repentant behavior and showing a callousness towards future potential victims, is NOT something to proudly sign one's name to, IMO.

[Rose Garden]

Many good people are being led astray because they are being told it is of God.

That's the Snuffer movement in a nut shell.

That's life in a nutshell.

[KFarber]

BRINGING TO LIGHT ALL THE HIDDEN THINGS
"…for your consideration the propriety of all the saints gathering up a knowledge of all the facts" ~ D&C 123: 1 MENU
HARD LOVE
Posted on September 18, 2017 by melonieturley
jesus with wolves

Sometimes life hands you a lesson that forever changes you. God has a way of doing that and making it very difficult, almost impossible. You then ask for his hand, and just when you think it is unbearable, He picks you up, the clouds part, the wolves stop growling around you and He carries you to a safe place. The sun comes shining through and you feel the love He has for you and all of creation.

He is very good at his job, this learning stuff he gives to us. Somehow it puts us to just the right test. He hold us to the fire until a bit more dross is burned off. It’s a Hard Love. That love he gives so freely, and then the love he requires we learn and give too. Our ability to feel that love, and then turn around and give that love is an amazing process to go through. It is only accomplished by and through Christ, and the capacity he gives us to do so, for sometimes it is beyond us.

I found a song that came out with the movie “The Shack”. I was looking for a song by Lauren Daigle, she is one of my favorite artists. There was a version of this song which she sang in, and it came up. As I listened to the song, the words just struck me.

The way God changes us. How the lessons he gives us, require parts of us to die, “Burn your old self away”. We “can’t change without a fallout”. Sometimes it seems he has abandoned us in our very time of need and the “road is long”, but it gave us the opportunity to be stretched and expanded and increase our faith and make our “courage strong”. He gives us a burning love that builds strength in and through Him. When wolves come, and they will, when the trials are heavy and difficult, we are strengthened by our past struggles and are able to endure. We get back up and go forward, but sometimes, it is a hard love we have learned.

Beautiful. Amazing. Hard.

“HARD LOVE”

Trading punches with the heart of darkness
Going to blows with your fear incarnate
Never gone until it’s stripped away
A part of you has gotta die to change

In the morning you gon’ need an answer
Ain’t nobody gonna change the standard
It’s not enough to just feel the flame
You’ve gotta burn your old self away

Hold on tight a little longer
What don’t kill ya, makes ya stronger
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love
You can’t change without a fallout
It’s gon’ hurt, but don’t you slow down
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love

You know the situation can’t be right
And all you ever do is fight
But there’s a reason that the road is long
It take some time to make your courage strong

Hold on tight a little longer
What don’t kill ya, makes ya stronger
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love
You can’t change without a fallout
It’s gon’ hurt, but don’t you slow down
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love

When the wolves come and hunt me down
I will face them all and stand my ground
‘Cause there’s a fire burnin’ in me
They will see my strength in this love I found
Oh

Hold on tight a little longer
What don’t kill ya, makes ya stronger
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love
You can’t change without a fallout
It’s gon’ hurt, but don’t you slow down
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love

It’s a hard love…

Hold on tight a little longer
What don’t kill ya, makes ya stronger
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love
You can’t change without a fallout
It’s gon’ hurt, but don’t you slow down
Get back up, ’cause it’s a hard love
‘Cause it’s a hard love

NEEDTOBREATHE Lyrics Songwriters: Nathaniel Rinehart / William Rinehart


It dawns on me that all of the experiences or projects that many have been involved in have not been completed in one way or another. The scriptures are not done, the guides and standards is not completed, and the women’s council was not even recognized. It was given to me at that time, that then, the Lord was more interested in the process, not an end result. Our lessons were given in the entire process each so us went through to get where we are now. Even those observing. How did we go through that process? What did it teach us? What was the intention? Did circumstances alter our decision to hold to direction we were given? Did our heart stay true to God? Did we have hurt feelings? Did we hurt others? Were we critical of others? It was a good experience to measure our readiness- for anything! It demonstrated on a grand scale, for all of us our weaknesses, both individually and as a body of believers.

I learned to love on another level. I learned to not be critical just because someone has a different opinion. Everyone’s perspective is different and we can and still should be friends. Fellowships can consist of both people who took the covenant, and those who did not. It will be yet; another exercise in how we treat each other. I know I will be better.

God is good at giving us second chances. He is always willing to let us try again. Progress has been made. Repentance is always welcome, at any point.

Luke 6:27-31 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

It is good to know effort has been and is still being made to heal and change, both individually and collectively. Some have cried on each other’s shoulders and arms extended to offer love. Friendships and hearts have been mended. Bridges have been reestablished to cross over to newer and greener pastures of love and forgiveness.