A question about the Mormon remnant movement

[Finrock]

I haven't been baptized LDS.

The last time I was seriously thinking about it my friend (the one who has the blog supporting Denver Snuffer) told me that I shouldn't be until after I received a remission of my sins.

He quoted a passage from D&C to prove this, and he said the token that I'd received a remission of my sins would be a noticeable sensation of warmth.

Now he tells me you all lost the priesthood when you sustained those who wrongfully excommunicated Mr. Snuffer at General Conference, but he was wrong about having to receive that visitation with fire before you're baptized, and if I want to receive any personal revelation I should take a leap of faith and get baptized by someone with the authority to baptize.

He also tells me that if I don't believe he's a messenger of God, its because I don't love him, and I don't have Charity or eternal life abiding in my heart.

And right now he's washed his hands of me, and won't answer any questions.

He says if I don't understand anything he's said, and I want to know what he meant, to "ask of God," and that's all he'll say.

He's done this before, and I've always found it frustrating, but there does seem to be a basis for it in your scriptures.

And to be fair to him, I have said and done things I shouldn't have done when I've been confused and frustrated.

Once when he cut me off like this, when my father dying in a skilled nursing facility (and he left me wondering if I should leave him there to die alone, while I just went out in the woods to pray until I received an answer, like Enos) I called his bishop's office and left a message that he wanted to talk to him.

That was before he came out of the closet with his beliefs, when he said that he valued his privacy, and I only did it because of where he left our conversation, and because he wouldn't talk to me or return my calls.

And I immediately had second thoughts, and left him a voice mail apologizing for what I had done, alerting him to the fact that he might receive a call from his bishop, and urging him not to overreact (because I hadn't revealed anything about his online persona, or what he was teaching.)

I don't know if he ever listened to that voicemail, or how he reacted when and if he received a call from his bishop, because he never returned my call (and I don't think he spoke to me again until long after my father died), but I have asked him to forgive me (and I forgive him, if I have anything to forgiven)

At other times, when he's threatened to cut me off and refused to answer my questions, I've said I could perhaps answer them myself by doing some investigative reporting.

Jesus did have something to say about those who put heavy burdens on people without raising a finger to lift them themselves, and my friend has written a lot against private property.

He's told his readers to sell their houses and any new cars they might be driving, and to liquidate their savings accounts and retirement funds, and give the proceeds directly to the poor.

And he's often quoted a passage in Moroni about not trusting any man to be your teacher unless he's keeping the commandments of God, and pointed to things like the business investments of the church, and the financial success of those chosen to be general authorities as evidence that the leaders of the church aren't keeping the commandments of God.

So in moments of confusion and frustration, when he's refused to talk to me, I've sometimes suggested that I could find out what I need to know by playing investigative reporter, and seeing how well he measures up to the standard he sets for others.

But I've never followed through on that thought, but I've never followed through on that thought, and I apologize.

I'm still very confused, but I thank all of you for your comments.

I've mentioned this before and I don't say this to mock or to ridicule but out of a desire to help you, you don't sound like in your posts as though you are acting, thinking, and reacting from a healthy mental state. I believe you should focus on getting help from a professional or some other expert on mental health before you continue to pursue getting answers or dealing with choices about baptism, religion, etc.

-Finrock

[inquirringmind]

I have a bachelor's degree in behavioral science, and I've studied all the experts (Jung, Freud, Adler, etc.)

I've also led group therapy sessions, and conducted bio/social/psyc interviews.

And what you say here kinda surprises me Finrock.

Do you really believe in secular counselling?

My friend in the Mormon remnant movement doesn't.

And he doesn't believe in medical doctors, or psyc meds, or any meds.

In fact, he says that Joseph called medical doctors our enemies, and has suggested that seeing a medical doctor is seeking to save your life, and in that context he's quoted Jesus as saying that "he who seeks to save his life will lose it."

I'm asthmatic, and on another forum he once suggested that I not use my rescue inhaler.

But that was when he was posting his own thoughts and interpretations, and defending them, and perhaps being contentious.

And whatever he thinks of me, I do try to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't see him arguing with anyone lately, and he seems to mostly quote scripture on his blog, so maybe he's repented.

And that's what leaves me asking the questions I've asked in the OP (and elsewhere on this thread.)

I again thank all of you for your comments--including you Finrock, but what you said intrigues me.

Do you really think someone with emotional issues should seek secular counselling, diagnosis, and treatment before seeking answers from God, searching the scriptures, or pondering the issues of baptism and religion?

When I was doing an internship at a drug/alcohol rehabilitation center called Bowling Green, we had to search client's belongings and confiscate bibles, and there was a rule against their discussing religion.

The rational was that they needed to concentrate on their recovery, but I always thought one's faith could be a big part of that, and I never felt right about confiscating bibles.

And I'm pretty sure that alcoholics anonymous (where faith in a higher power is a big part of the program) has a higher success rate then the rehab center I did my internship in.

So do you really believe someone with the kind of problems you suggest I have should look to worldly counselling before they look to God?

Or are you perhaps engaging in a logical fallacy known as guilt by association?

If you belong to the remnant movement, and if you perceive me as being against the remnant movement, could you perhaps be trying to discredit me by suggesting I have mental issues?

And how would you feel about taking bibles and copies of the book of Mormon from clients who checked in to rehab, and telling them that discussing religion was against the rules there?

Would that be part of your treatment plan if you were the director?

[Finrock]

Its not a dichotomy: Get help from God or from counseling. You can get counseling and get help from God all at the same time. Further, God can work through other people and quite often does. I've no doubt that God uses agents to help us at various times in our life. Getting close to God often means getting to know yourself, understanding yourself, and removing any stumbling blocks that might prevent you from believing things God may want to reveal to you but which you might reject because of mental illness. God is always reaching out to us, but we are all at various stages and points in our lives. In the end, there is no shame in seeking help from others when you need it. Recognize as well that all people have at least a spark of divinity within them and some even more. God can speak and reveal truth to us through others who have a greater portion of God's light within them than you might have at a particular point in time. The point is not to become dependent on other people but to utilize the tools and resources God places in our lives.

My journey in life has required me to learn to trust in people, not for salvation, but to have a healthy trust in people and to be humble enough to recognize when I need help because clearly my own efforts have not produced healthy results. I've had to swallow my pride and admit that I can't do everything in life alone.

As a word of advice I would certainly be careful about who I seek counseling from. I would pick someone who shares my religious values or who at least recognizes and acknowledges the existence of God.

-Finrock

[inquirringmind]

Its not a dichotomy: Get help from God or from counseling. You can get counseling and get help from God all at the same time.

I'm sorry.

I took you literally when you said.

I believe you should focus on getting help from a professional or some other expert on mental health before you continue to pursue getting answers or dealing with choices about baptism, religion, etc.

You did say, "before," so I thought you were presenting a dichotomy.

God can work through other people and quite often does.

I agree.

That's why I'm here asking questions.

And why I ask my friend questions when he'll talk to me.

But he seems offended that I don't believe him, and says he's washed his hands of me, and if I ask any question, or ask him to explain anything he said, he just says "ask of God."

So I am asking of God.

And because God does sometimes work through people, I'm asking questions of you here.

[gardener4life]

Well you can talk to me more privately.

Here are a couple thoughts; don't worry too much about it. Just focus on reading the scriptures, both the book of mormon and the bible. Just focus on feeling the peace and the spirit inside. Focus on waiting till you don't feel confused but pray that heavenly father will fill you with peace towards where you need to go.

Also here's a thought;

"...He also tells me that if I don't believe he's a messenger of God, its because I don't love him, and I don't have Charity or eternal life abiding in my heart. And right now he's washed his hands of me, and won't answer any questions...."

This is classic child behavior. The child CONFRONTS the parent, not edifies them. The child then has the behavior of, if you really loved me you'd buy me that toy. Any parent can confirm this. And that's what he just did. Also the not answering messages or talking to him. That's classic child tantrum behavior too. So when my family members get offended that I represent the church and have told my parents they can't have anarchy in the house, they then all gang up and give me the silent treatment. This is the same thing he's doing, while withholding love to force you to be conquered under him.

In the kingdom of God we edify each other. So both of us are uplifted. It's not a one sided thing. And we're allowed to go at our own pace. (We don't want to have a slow pace because we want the future blessings of what living the gospel brings. But we're given time to go at a pace we can understand. Then we build our pace with the spirit, living the gospel later. Isn't it wonderful that the Lord lets us progress with what we can handle? It shouldn't be really stressful. He even says don't run faster than you can walk!)

"...The last time I was seriously thinking about it my friend (the one who has the blog supporting Denver Snuffer) told me that I shouldn't be until after I received a remission of my sins..."

I had to comment on this. This isn't good. He's saying basically wait for a sign before you get baptized. All you need to know is if the Book of Mormon is true. Then you build a chain from there. I know the scriptures are true-->I know I feel good when I read them, I know that what I read is real, because it smells of peace. I feel strength in my personal life on days when I read the scriptures --> I know that the prophets are real and true, both ancient and modern. If the book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know that there was succession of authority after Joseph Smith and that the current prophet is President Monson. I can get baptized as soon as I know that I can live the commitments. --> I don't want to wait forever to get baptized because my eternal progression accelerates after baptism. I also need the living ordinances and time is running out; none of us know how much we'll live. The Holy Ghost will open your mind and help you see more clearly after baptism because you will have the gift of the Holy Ghost always.

One of the reasons you don't wait is he's trying to say the baptism of fire should come before the baptism of water. That's not how it works. You just have to really ask yourself, when I read the Book of Mormon do I know it to be true? Yes...OK then, so am I ready to live by it? Yes...then don't wait. Also ask the missionaries to help you. You can talk on the internet with them in chat now actually which is less intimidating.

The baptism of fire comes after we receive the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of hands by those in authority.

I think part of why he's confusing you is he's attacking Christianity while at the same time trying to say he's the real Christianity and leader. You can recognize false prophets by their rebellion against authority. In this case the Book of Mormon is true. The LDS church is true, but you've run into someone to stay away from. Nobody with any good intentions ever cuts down others, but sometimes we have to help people identify what's going on to get rid of the confusion. (Not the same thing.)

Things will be OK. Just trust the scriptures. And him saying the scripture that you should only trust inspired teachers makes me sad because HE is the one that scripture is warning about but he's saying that about others.

Also for an example to show you how wrong he is...why has he not tried to come back all this time but still fighting and arguing? Compare this example with W.W. Phelps in the days of Joseph Smith. W.W. Phelps screwed up big time, and lost his membership. What'd he do? He completely tore up his pride and more than once came back to Joseph Smith and the leaders at the time begging to be let back in with fully humble & repentant heart. This actually happened twice. He didn't wait even a year to try to come back. The first time I forgot how long it took for him to repent, but the second time he came back within the same week to repent and seek forgiveness instead of trying to tell leaders they should repent instead. He knew how important the gospel was and that it was such a treasure that he wouldn't risk being out of fellowship for years. The years out of fellowship really would slow down someone's growth.

I would encourage you to not use this person as a source for asking questions. Ask the missionaries. Don't focus on big scholarly answers just focus on the atmosphere of where Christ like attributes are.

https://www.mormon.org/chat

[Finrock]

Its not a dichotomy: Get help from God or from counseling. You can get counseling and get help from God all at the same time.

I'm sorry.

I took you literally when you said.

I believe you should focus on getting help from a professional or some other expert on mental health before you continue to pursue getting answers or dealing with choices about baptism, religion, etc.

You did say, "before," so I thought you were presenting a dichotomy.

God can work through other people and quite often does.

I agree.

That's why I'm here asking questions.

And why I ask my friend questions when he'll talk to me.

But he seems offended that I don't believe him, and says he's washed his hands of me, and if I ask any question, or ask him to explain anything he said, he just says "ask of God."

So I am asking of God.

And because God does sometimes work through people, I'm asking questions of you here.

Right. Your actions and your reactions that you've revealed on this forum don't sound like they are coming from a mentally healthy position. You've rationalized and justified what you are doing without considering the idea that you might have a mental illness and you are better off seeking professional or expert help.

As general counsel, an internet forum is not the right place to seek for guidance or assistance for mental illness. It isn't the right environment and it doesn't represent a trustworthy source. If you indeed do have a mental illness you should stop seeking guidance, answers, and direction from the internet and focus on finding out a solution to your mental illness so that you can then pursue these issues from a healthy mental state and probably get better results. Or, you just might discover what God wants for you when receiving counseling from professionals who you can trust, who are compassionate, and who are well qualified to assist you.

Again, this is just how you come off to me in your posts and in the things that you have revealed and I am posting this in an attempt to be helpful and compassionate towards you.

God bless!

-Finrock

[Mark]

Well you can talk to me more privately.

Here are a couple thoughts; don't worry too much about it. Just focus on reading the scriptures, both the book of mormon and the bible. Just focus on feeling the peace and the spirit inside. Focus on waiting till you don't feel confused but pray that heavenly father will fill you with peace towards where you need to go.

Also here's a thought;

"...He also tells me that if I don't believe he's a messenger of God, its because I don't love him, and I don't have Charity or eternal life abiding in my heart. And right now he's washed his hands of me, and won't answer any questions...."

This is classic child behavior. The child CONFRONTS the parent, not edifies them. The child then has the behavior of, if you really loved me you'd buy me that toy. Any parent can confirm this. And that's what he just did. Also the not answering messages or talking to him. That's classic child tantrum behavior too. So when my family members get offended that I represent the church and have told my parents they can't have anarchy in the house, they then all gang up and give me the silent treatment. This is the same thing he's doing, while withholding love to force you to be conquered under him.

In the kingdom of God we edify each other. So both of us are uplifted. It's not a one sided thing. And we're allowed to go at our own pace. (We don't want to have a slow pace because we want the future blessings of what living the gospel brings. But we're given time to go at a pace we can understand. Then we build our pace with the spirit, living the gospel later. Isn't it wonderful that the Lord lets us progress with what we can handle? It shouldn't be really stressful. He even says don't run faster than you can walk!)

"...The last time I was seriously thinking about it my friend (the one who has the blog supporting Denver Snuffer) told me that I shouldn't be until after I received a remission of my sins..."

I had to comment on this. This isn't good. He's saying basically wait for a sign before you get baptized. All you need to know is if the Book of Mormon is true. Then you build a chain from there. I know the scriptures are true-->I know I feel good when I read them, I know that what I read is real, because it smells of peace. I feel strength in my personal life on days when I read the scriptures --> I know that the prophets are real and true, both ancient and modern. If the book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know that there was succession of authority after Joseph Smith and that the current prophet is President Monson. I can get baptized as soon as I know that I can live the commitments. --> I don't want to wait forever to get baptized because my eternal progression accelerates after baptism. I also need the living ordinances and time is running out; none of us know how much we'll live. The Holy Ghost will open your mind and help you see more clearly after baptism because you will have the gift of the Holy Ghost always.

One of the reasons you don't wait is he's trying to say the baptism of fire should come before the baptism of water. That's not how it works. You just have to really ask yourself, when I read the Book of Mormon do I know it to be true? Yes...OK then, so am I ready to live by it? Yes...then don't wait. Also ask the missionaries to help you. You can talk on the internet with them in chat now actually which is less intimidating.

The baptism of fire comes after we receive the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of hands by those in authority.

I think part of why he's confusing you is he's attacking Christianity while at the same time trying to say he's the real Christianity and leader. You can recognize false prophets by their rebellion against authority. In this case the Book of Mormon is true. The LDS church is true, but you've run into someone to stay away from. Nobody with any good intentions ever cuts down others, but sometimes we have to help people identify what's going on to get rid of the confusion. (Not the same thing.)

Things will be OK. Just trust the scriptures. And him saying the scripture that you should only trust inspired teachers makes me sad because HE is the one that scripture is warning about but he's saying that about others.

Also for an example to show you how wrong he is...why has he not tried to come back all this time but still fighting and arguing? Compare this example with W.W. Phelps in the days of Joseph Smith. W.W. Phelps screwed up big time, and lost his membership. What'd he do? He completely tore up his pride and more than once came back to Joseph Smith and the leaders at the time begging to be let back in with fully humble & repentant heart. This actually happened twice. He didn't wait even a year to try to come back. The first time I forgot how long it took for him to repent, but the second time he came back within the same week to repent and seek forgiveness instead of trying to tell leaders they should repent instead. He knew how important the gospel was and that it was such a treasure that he wouldn't risk being out of fellowship for years. The years out of fellowship really would slow down someone's growth.

I would encourage you to not use this person as a source for asking questions. Ask the missionaries. Don't focus on big scholarly answers just focus on the atmosphere of where Christ like attributes are.

https://www.mormon.org/chat

Take this post to heart my friend. It is filled with sound advice. Your friend is displaying fruits that are not conducive to positive spiritual growth and development. Seek Christ like attributes. That is the path to true discipleship. Open Rebellion and critical accusations leveled against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are not the path to take. It will take you in the opposite direction toward discipleship.

[e-eye2.0]

You need to reach out to the missionaries to learn more. You may get some good answers here but there is a bunch of garbage too. As a non member it can be very hard to discern the truth but there will be nobody better than the missionaries to teach you how to get answers, how to ask, and how to listen. The missionaries are called and set apart to teach - there is a reason you have to be taught by them. Did you know something like 40% of converts knew the missionaries were true messengers before the missionaries opened their mouth? The spirit will speak to your heart. If you have taken the lessons, take them again. Open your heart and listen. Exercise faith.

[investigator]

drtanner wrote
Some groups may be having what they claim as spiritual experiences, and may even be performing miracles, do not buy in.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How did the Lord react to those who claimed these things?? Which again goes back to the importance of a personal witness.

JST 23:...Ye never knew me...

[drtanner]

JST 23 ye never knew me

Thank you, that is exactly right. There will be groups in the last days that claim to be having spiritual experiences and performing miracles in the name of the Lord, don't buy in. We can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority only found in this church. "The power of godliness is manifest in the ordinances."

[investigator]

JST 23 ye never knew me

...We can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority only found in this church..."

I disagree with your statement that we can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority found in this church. Christ can give his authority to whomever he chooses. This is not controlled by a church or institution. There are too many instances to in scripture and history wherein people have come to know Christ without that knowledge being contingent on being a member of this or a church. Saul met and conversed with the Lord as an apostate Jew. Joseph Smith met and conversed with the Lord and angels for years without having priesthood or being a member of a church. Amos was just a boy sheep herder when the Lord conversed with him and called him to the ministry.

14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Christ has ministered to many “other sheep” which are not of the House of Israel in Jerusalem or here on the American continent.

1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Christ has revealed that there are holy men that “we know not of”. I’m quite certain that if we don’t know about them they are not members of this church.

Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

Ordinances are necessary but Aaronic priesthood is very durable. Alma for example was a priest of wicked King Noah. After accepting the words of a true messenger, Abinadi, he, with the blessing of the Lord, was able to establish the church. No further ordination by a man was necessary.
To think that the Lord will and can work just through this church is idolatrous and arrogant.

The Lord in Matthew, giving counsel on how to identify false prophets, gave the standard by which to be able to make that judgement. “By their fruits, ye shall know them”.

Jesus DID NOT say we could recognize a prophet by office, title, position, credentials, family, education, wealth, power, achievements, honors of men, success, accolades, or even common consent. These are all false standards, valued by this fallen world, but completely irrelevant to heaven. God chooses whom He will, and teaches that person. This is the only credential a prophet needs. The message is both the credential and the fruit of that prophet. If someone delivers a message from God, the message is all the authority needed. Such a messenger is, in delivering that message, a prophet.

Therefore, if we are to judge by fruits, we must examine the prophecy of the prophet to discern a true prophet from a pretender. If a man has never issued prophecy, there is nothing by which to judge.

Has the prophet prophesied or produced a revelation and submitted it to the church by common consent? Has the prophet translated sacred records? Has he interpreted past events, dreams, or visions? Has he foretold future events such as would be evidence of a seership? Has he opened the scriptures to us and provided needed interpretation and edification on say the works of Isaiah? These are the fruits of a prophet. Nowhere in scripture does the Lord state that buildings, wealth, land holdings, or popularity are the fruits of a prophet.

In the fulfillment of Nephi’s prophesy in 2 Nephi 28:5-6, you continue to say

drtanner wrote
“There will be groups in the last days that claim to be having spiritual experiences and performing miracles in the name of the Lord, don't buy in.”

In doing so you are denying the very things that the Lord has told us would be the fruits of true messengers and prophets.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

But this is just my apostate view of this issue.

[Arenera]

JST 23 ye never knew me

...We can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority only found in this church..."

I disagree with your statement that we can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority found in this church. Christ can give his authority to whomever he chooses. This is not controlled by a church or institution. There are too many instances to in scripture and history wherein people have come to know Christ without that knowledge being contingent on being a member of this or a church. Saul met and conversed with the Lord as an apostate Jew. Joseph Smith met and conversed with the Lord and angels for years without having priesthood or being a member of a church. Amos was just a boy sheep herder when the Lord conversed with him and called him to the ministry.

14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Christ has ministered to many “other sheep” which are not of the House of Israel in Jerusalem or here on the American continent.

1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Christ has revealed that there are holy men that “we know not of”. I’m quite certain that if we don’t know about them they are not members of this church.

Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

Ordinances are necessary but Aaronic priesthood is very durable. Alma for example was a priest of wicked King Noah. After accepting the words of a true messenger, Abinadi, he, with the blessing of the Lord, was able to establish the church. No further ordination by a man was necessary.
To think that the Lord will and can work just through this church is idolatrous and arrogant.

The Lord in Matthew, giving counsel on how to identify false prophets, gave the standard by which to be able to make that judgement. “By their fruits, ye shall know them”.

Jesus DID NOT say we could recognize a prophet by office, title, position, credentials, family, education, wealth, power, achievements, honors of men, success, accolades, or even common consent. These are all false standards, valued by this fallen world, but completely irrelevant to heaven. God chooses whom He will, and teaches that person. This is the only credential a prophet needs. The message is both the credential and the fruit of that prophet. If someone delivers a message from God, the message is all the authority needed. Such a messenger is, in delivering that message, a prophet.

Therefore, if we are to judge by fruits, we must examine the prophecy of the prophet to discern a true prophet from a pretender. If a man has never issued prophecy, there is nothing by which to judge.

Has the prophet prophesied or produced a revelation and submitted it to the church by common consent? Has the prophet translated sacred records? Has he interpreted past events, dreams, or visions? Has he foretold future events such as would be evidence of a seership? Has he opened the scriptures to us and provided needed interpretation and edification on say the works of Isaiah? These are the fruits of a prophet. Nowhere in scripture does the Lord state that buildings, wealth, land holdings, or popularity are the fruits of a prophet.

In the fulfillment of Nephi’s prophesy in 2 Nephi 28:5-6, you continue to say

drtanner wrote
“There will be groups in the last days that claim to be having spiritual experiences and performing miracles in the name of the Lord, don't buy in.”

In doing so you are denying the very things that the Lord has told us would be the fruits of true messengers and prophets.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

But this is just my apostate view of this issue.

Misguided maybe? Jesus did visit the Americas, but He setup His Church in the Americas also, complete with leaders. The Church in the Americas was very successful, for almost 200 years.

[Mark]

JST 23 ye never knew me

...We can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority only found in this church..."

I disagree with your statement that we can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority found in this church. Christ can give his authority to whomever he chooses. This is not controlled by a church or institution. There are too many instances to in scripture and history wherein people have come to know Christ without that knowledge being contingent on being a member of this or a church. Saul met and conversed with the Lord as an apostate Jew. Joseph Smith met and conversed with the Lord and angels for years without having priesthood or being a member of a church. Amos was just a boy sheep herder when the Lord conversed with him and called him to the ministry.

14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Christ has ministered to many “other sheep” which are not of the House of Israel in Jerusalem or here on the American continent.

1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Christ has revealed that there are holy men that “we know not of”. I’m quite certain that if we don’t know about them they are not members of this church.

Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

Ordinances are necessary but Aaronic priesthood is very durable. Alma for example was a priest of wicked King Noah. After accepting the words of a true messenger, Abinadi, he, with the blessing of the Lord, was able to establish the church. No further ordination by a man was necessary.
To think that the Lord will and can work just through this church is idolatrous and arrogant.

The Lord in Matthew, giving counsel on how to identify false prophets, gave the standard by which to be able to make that judgement. “By their fruits, ye shall know them”.

Jesus DID NOT say we could recognize a prophet by office, title, position, credentials, family, education, wealth, power, achievements, honors of men, success, accolades, or even common consent. These are all false standards, valued by this fallen world, but completely irrelevant to heaven. God chooses whom He will, and teaches that person. This is the only credential a prophet needs. The message is both the credential and the fruit of that prophet. If someone delivers a message from God, the message is all the authority needed. Such a messenger is, in delivering that message, a prophet.

Therefore, if we are to judge by fruits, we must examine the prophecy of the prophet to discern a true prophet from a pretender. If a man has never issued prophecy, there is nothing by which to judge.

Has the prophet prophesied or produced a revelation and submitted it to the church by common consent? Has the prophet translated sacred records? Has he interpreted past events, dreams, or visions? Has he foretold future events such as would be evidence of a seership? Has he opened the scriptures to us and provided needed interpretation and edification on say the works of Isaiah? These are the fruits of a prophet. Nowhere in scripture does the Lord state that buildings, wealth, land holdings, or popularity are the fruits of a prophet.

In the fulfillment of Nephi’s prophesy in 2 Nephi 28:5-6, you continue to say

drtanner wrote
“There will be groups in the last days that claim to be having spiritual experiences and performing miracles in the name of the Lord, don't buy in.”

In doing so you are denying the very things that the Lord has told us would be the fruits of true messengers and prophets.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

But this is just my apostate view of this issue.

Well at least you are willing to admit who you really are. Unlike so many who come on these forums and conceal their true identity in order to deceive unsuspecting LDS members. :ymcowboy:

[drtanner]

Appreciate your thoughts investigator. It is true Christ can give his authority to whomever he wants, and that is what he did with the establishment of his church in the latter days. He gave it to John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John who in turn gave it to Joseph Smith who then gave it to others. There is an order to this priesthood succession which can be traced directly to Christ. If others are claiming he gave it directly to them I wouldn't buy in. Many individuals have claimed this over the years and many more will continue to claim this, some even who claim mighty works in his name. Knowing that the priesthood authority is STILL in his church is an important part of knowing him D&C 84. I have a witness that this is true and it is independent of anyone else. If you have not received this I invite you to ask him and can promise if you are sincere and striving to keep his commandments you can receive the same. There is a difference in priesthood authority and priesthood power however that is also key to actually knowing him and acting in his name.

[Mark]

Appreciate your thoughts investigator. It is true Christ can give his authority to whomever he wants, and that is what he did with the establishment of his church in the latter days. He gave it to John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John who in turn gave it to Joseph Smith who then gave it to others. There is an order to this priesthood succession which can be traced directly to Christ. If others are claiming he gave it directly to them I wouldn't buy in. Many individuals have claimed this over the years and many more will continue to claim this, some even who claim mighty works in his name. Knowing that the priesthood authority is STILL in his church is an important part of knowing him D&C 84. I have a witness that this is true and it is independent of anyone else. If you have not received this I invite you to ask him and can promise if you are sincere and striving to keep his commandments you can receive the same. There is a difference in priesthood authority and priesthood power however that is also key to actually knowing him and acting in his name.

6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;

7 And also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias he (Elias) visited and gave promise that he should have a son, and his name should be John, and he should be filled with the spirit of Elias;

8 Which John I have sent unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, to ordain you unto the first priesthood which you have received, that you might be called and ordained even as Aaron;

9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse;

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

[creator]

A former member of this forum has his own blog now, and most of what he talks about is the sermon on the mount. He's part of the Mormon remnant movement, believes Denver Snuffer is a prophet, and has been rebaptized...

..he tells me I should be baptized by someone in the movement, and says that if I don't believe he's a messenger of God, without receiving personal revelation to the contrary, it's because I don't have Charity...

Could my old friend be right?

If any of you aren't already familiar with his blog, here's the link.

Your friend is Jared of Log's Cabin?!

He's using classic manipulation tactics on you.

How about you just follow what the Spirit/Lord is telling you to do.

[Red]

"The Devil is not anti-religion. He is anti-Christ. He has devised so many religions to blind people of the true gospel."

Where is that quote from?

[Red]

Inquirringmind,

I appreciate the sincerity in your questions. I want you to know that a witness of the truth is available to you, one that you can stand on independently of anyone else. You do not have to stand on borrowed light!!! Heaven can and will speak the truth, there is nothing more important. I promise you I have received that witness and you can also. I KNOW the keys are alive and well in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have an independent witness that I can never deny.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Some groups may be having what they claim as spiritual experiences, and may even be performing miracles, do not buy in.
One of the great subtleties of the advisory is to imitate Christ or do things similar with the intent to deceive. Interestingly enough the advisory will use groups and individuals as his pawns and many times they won't even recognize that they are feeding into his hand and they genuinely believe they are doing right by God. The D&C and Book of Mormon are full of these examples and how to flesh them out. I encourage you to search them on your own, but PM me if you would like me to point you in a few directions to get you started.


Why does all this matter? Where is the evil? The evil is in damning people in there progression. We can not progress without ordinances and covenants. The authority for those ordinances that bind what is on earth to heaven is only found in this church. The personal access we have to the power of these ordinances is only found in our personal relationship with the savior through obedience to his commandments. This is where the difference in the church and the gospel comes in and the importance of the application of the Doctrine of Christ for you personally.

D&C 84:20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

Satan knows this and will do all in his power to distract and persuade to look elsewhere with the mask of appearing to look like a true disciple. He will feed all the poor on the entire planet if it means keeping you from the ordinances of salvation and becoming like God.

Last thought as you are seeking for a witness.

D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it.

If you want to know the truth, truth can only be spiritually discerned. What does that mean, for starters you have to be worthy of the spirit as you seek to know God and receive a witness from him. I find many who seek to know truth forget this step and do not obey God's commandments and do not avoid things that would offend the spirit. It doesn't mean you need to be perfect, but it means you have to be trying your very best to be clean, worthy, and only doing things that invite the spirit as you are trying to obtain a witness and answer from God.

You do not have to be confused any longer, I promise you a witness and answer is waiting if you are willing to do your part to gain it.

What is your part.
Ask with all your heart and don't stop until you get an answer, most likely will require intense prayer and fasting.
Seek (look in the scriptures and to the prophets for guidance)
Be obedient
Repent and believe Christ

I will be praying for you as well.

Someone smarter than me once said, "LDS don't have a license on God. They only think they do."

[Red]

When you have a witness of the truth there is nothing here that does not apply.

drtanner, it is just as easy to say to you as you say about other groups, that you are falling for the subtleties of the adversary. It is just as easy to say to you as you say of other groups, that you are a pawn of the devil and you are unable to recognize that you are feeding in to the devil's hand even though you genuinely believe you are doing right by God. If other people or groups spiritual experiences by which they testify of truth can be called in to question and we should not buy it, then your own personal spiritual experiences, which is your only support for your post, can be called in to question and we should not buy in to it.
E
You can be deceived and your personal witness can be an imitation from the devil.

-Finrock

That's kinda what bothers me.

Here's something my friend wrote on his blog.

Everything which invites to do good and to persuade to believe in Christ is of God.

Since the law of God - the Golden Rule - defines good, and since to believe in Christ means fully relying upon him, confidently trusting him, and therefore doing all things whatsoever he commands without regard to your relationships, your career, your reputation, your holdings, and even your own life, this is equivalent to saying everything which invites you to obey the law of God and to persuade others to keep commandments of Christ is of God.

Everything which persuades men to do evil and believe not in Christ and deny him and serve not God is of the devil.

Since anything short of the Golden Rule is evil, this is equivalent to saying everything which persuades men to do to others what they do not want others to do to them, and to not fully rely upon Christ, and to reject Christ or any of Christ’s commands, teachings, or sayings, and to not keep the commandments of God, is of the devil.

http://logscabin.blogspot.com/2017/06/t ... e.html?m=1

My friend, and Mr. Snuffer both strongly emphasize the golden rule.

And they both tell people to ask of God, and to keep asking until they get an answer.

And I'm trying to keep the golden, and praying, and pondering.

And I'm still not sure I see the evil in what they're teaching.

There likely isn't any evil. There's truth in all religions. Just don't get carried away and accidentally find yourself following a man instead of God. It happens easily. Most people follow the prophet and forget they can go straight to God.

[Red]

I haven't been baptized LDS.

The last time I was seriously thinking about it my friend (the one who has the blog supporting Denver Snuffer) told me that I shouldn't be until after I received a remission of my sins.

He quoted a passage from D&C to prove this, and he said the token that I'd received a remission of my sins would be a noticeable sensation of warmth.

Now he tells me you all lost the priesthood when you sustained those who wrongfully excommunicated Mr. Snuffer at General Conference, but he was wrong about having to receive that visitation with fire before you're baptized, and if I want to receive any personal revelation I should take a leap of faith and get baptized by someone with the authority to baptize.

He also tells me that if I don't believe he's a messenger of God, its because I don't love him, and I don't have Charity or eternal life abiding in my heart.

And right now he's washed his hands of me, and won't answer any questions.

He says if I don't understand anything he's said, and I want to know what he meant, to "ask of God," and that's all he'll say.

He's done this before, and I've always found it frustrating, but there does seem to be a basis for it in your scriptures.

And to be fair to him, I have said and done things I shouldn't have done when I've been confused and frustrated.

Once when he cut me off like this, when my father dying in a skilled nursing facility (and he left me wondering if I should leave him there to die alone, while I just went out in the woods to pray until I received an answer, like Enos) I called his bishop's office and left a message that he wanted to talk to him.

That was before he came out of the closet with his beliefs, when he said that he valued his privacy, and I only did it because of where he left our conversation, and because he wouldn't talk to me or return my calls.

And I immediately had second thoughts, and left him a voice mail apologizing for what I had done, alerting him to the fact that he might receive a call from his bishop, and urging him not to overreact (because I hadn't revealed anything about his online persona, or what he was teaching.)

I don't know if he ever listened to that voicemail, or how he reacted when and if he received a call from his bishop, because he never returned my call (and I don't think he spoke to me again until long after my father died), but I have asked him to forgive me (and I forgive him, if I have anything to forgiven)

At other times, when he's threatened to cut me off and refused to answer my questions, I've said I could perhaps answer them myself by doing some investigative reporting.

Jesus did have something to say about those who put heavy burdens on people without raising a finger to lift them themselves, and my friend has written a lot against private property.

He's told his readers to sell their houses and any new cars they might be driving, and to liquidate their savings accounts and retirement funds, and give the proceeds directly to the poor.

And he's often quoted a passage in Moroni about not trusting any man to be your teacher unless he's keeping the commandments of God, and pointed to things like the business investments of the church, and the financial success of those chosen to be general authorities as evidence that the leaders of the church aren't keeping the commandments of God.

So in moments of confusion and frustration, when he's refused to talk to me, I've sometimes suggested that I could find out what I need to know by playing investigative reporter, and seeing how well he measures up to the standard he sets for others.

But I've never followed through on that thought, but I've never followed through on that thought, and I apologize.

I'm still very confused, but I thank all of you for your comments.

I'm sorry your friend has been unkind to you. None of his actions as you describe them sound like something the Savior would do. Seek goodness and light. If it makes you feel bad, frustrated, or upset in any way, it's likely not of God. God doesn't send his messengers to say things like this: He also tells me that if I don't believe he's a messenger of God, its because I don't love him, and I don't have Charity or eternal life abiding in my heart.

[Red]

JST 23 ye never knew me

...We can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority only found in this church..."

I disagree with your statement that we can never truly know Christ without the priesthood authority found in this church. Christ can give his authority to whomever he chooses. This is not controlled by a church or institution. There are too many instances to in scripture and history wherein people have come to know Christ without that knowledge being contingent on being a member of this or a church. Saul met and conversed with the Lord as an apostate Jew. Joseph Smith met and conversed with the Lord and angels for years without having priesthood or being a member of a church. Amos was just a boy sheep herder when the Lord conversed with him and called him to the ministry.

14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

Christ has ministered to many “other sheep” which are not of the House of Israel in Jerusalem or here on the American continent.

1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Christ has revealed that there are holy men that “we know not of”. I’m quite certain that if we don’t know about them they are not members of this church.

Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

Ordinances are necessary but Aaronic priesthood is very durable. Alma for example was a priest of wicked King Noah. After accepting the words of a true messenger, Abinadi, he, with the blessing of the Lord, was able to establish the church. No further ordination by a man was necessary.
To think that the Lord will and can work just through this church is idolatrous and arrogant.

The Lord in Matthew, giving counsel on how to identify false prophets, gave the standard by which to be able to make that judgement. “By their fruits, ye shall know them”.

Jesus DID NOT say we could recognize a prophet by office, title, position, credentials, family, education, wealth, power, achievements, honors of men, success, accolades, or even common consent. These are all false standards, valued by this fallen world, but completely irrelevant to heaven. God chooses whom He will, and teaches that person. This is the only credential a prophet needs. The message is both the credential and the fruit of that prophet. If someone delivers a message from God, the message is all the authority needed. Such a messenger is, in delivering that message, a prophet.

Therefore, if we are to judge by fruits, we must examine the prophecy of the prophet to discern a true prophet from a pretender. If a man has never issued prophecy, there is nothing by which to judge.

Has the prophet prophesied or produced a revelation and submitted it to the church by common consent? Has the prophet translated sacred records? Has he interpreted past events, dreams, or visions? Has he foretold future events such as would be evidence of a seership? Has he opened the scriptures to us and provided needed interpretation and edification on say the works of Isaiah? These are the fruits of a prophet. Nowhere in scripture does the Lord state that buildings, wealth, land holdings, or popularity are the fruits of a prophet.

In the fulfillment of Nephi’s prophesy in 2 Nephi 28:5-6, you continue to say

drtanner wrote
“There will be groups in the last days that claim to be having spiritual experiences and performing miracles in the name of the Lord, don't buy in.”

In doing so you are denying the very things that the Lord has told us would be the fruits of true messengers and prophets.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

But this is just my apostate view of this issue.

Beautiful.

[drtanner]

Inquirringmind,

I appreciate the sincerity in your questions. I want you to know that a witness of the truth is available to you, one that you can stand on independently of anyone else. You do not have to stand on borrowed light!!! Heaven can and will speak the truth, there is nothing more important. I promise you I have received that witness and you can also. I KNOW the keys are alive and well in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have an independent witness that I can never deny.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Some groups may be having what they claim as spiritual experiences, and may even be performing miracles, do not buy in.
One of the great subtleties of the advisory is to imitate Christ or do things similar with the intent to deceive. Interestingly enough the advisory will use groups and individuals as his pawns and many times they won't even recognize that they are feeding into his hand and they genuinely believe they are doing right by God. The D&C and Book of Mormon are full of these examples and how to flesh them out. I encourage you to search them on your own, but PM me if you would like me to point you in a few directions to get you started.


Why does all this matter? Where is the evil? The evil is in damning people in there progression. We can not progress without ordinances and covenants. The authority for those ordinances that bind what is on earth to heaven is only found in this church. The personal access we have to the power of these ordinances is only found in our personal relationship with the savior through obedience to his commandments. This is where the difference in the church and the gospel comes in and the importance of the application of the Doctrine of Christ for you personally.

D&C 84:20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

Satan knows this and will do all in his power to distract and persuade to look elsewhere with the mask of appearing to look like a true disciple. He will feed all the poor on the entire planet if it means keeping you from the ordinances of salvation and becoming like God.

Last thought as you are seeking for a witness.

D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it.

If you want to know the truth, truth can only be spiritually discerned. What does that mean, for starters you have to be worthy of the spirit as you seek to know God and receive a witness from him. I find many who seek to know truth forget this step and do not obey God's commandments and do not avoid things that would offend the spirit. It doesn't mean you need to be perfect, but it means you have to be trying your very best to be clean, worthy, and only doing things that invite the spirit as you are trying to obtain a witness and answer from God.

You do not have to be confused any longer, I promise you a witness and answer is waiting if you are willing to do your part to gain it.

What is your part.
Ask with all your heart and don't stop until you get an answer, most likely will require intense prayer and fasting.
Seek (look in the scriptures and to the prophets for guidance)
Be obedient
Repent and believe Christ

I will be praying for you as well.

Someone smarter than me once said, "LDS don't have a license on God. They only think they do."

Don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a license on God. Just priesthood authority for saving ordinances. Praying inquiringmind, you, and others who have made comments will understand the significance of what that means for our relationship with the father and son and eternal potential with our families.

[gardener4life]

Just one point this man said he was confused about some things. That's natural. It's normal to have questions about the gospel. I really don't think that meritted so many people going off on mental illness. That bothered me a lot. It's normal to ask questions and line out arguments on two choices. But so many people really went off on getting treatment. We didn't need to do that. Asking questions should be encouraged in the gospel.

[TheSpiritofTruth111]

I would think that if the remnant movement "believed all things" they would then believe the testimonies of the 12 apostles of our Church. But I don't think this scripture is talking about believing everyone who comes along with claims of authority, I look at it more as you believe that all things are possible with God. Mormonism embraces all truth, which we can recognize as anything that uplifts, builds, or builds upon, multiplies, enlarges, within the bounds the Lord has set. We shouldn't take lightly the promise that "all that the Father hath" may be ours if we behave within His bounds, and keep his commandments.

More revelation, more scripture, more opportunity, more potential. I can become a Goddess and have a multiplicity of all things. What does any other Church, religion, belief system, or person have to offer me more than that? If we think about the doctrine of the trinity of the Christian world for example, compared to what we believe about the Godhead, we see that the Christian world limits their definition by subtracting members and physical bodies from the Godhead. You could argue that they believe that God is in and through everything and is not limited by a physical body, but when you get right down to it, we believe that too. We don't believe God is limited. All things are possible with God.

So, the real question is, why should you believe them as opposed to us. Who has authority to baptize? Pray to know of course, but if you don't desire to believe all things as they are, the Lord is not going to give you an answer you won't appreciate.

Are thou in the Church to become a Goddess, or because ye love God which is good, would you be in it if it was revealed ye shall not yet be a Goddess for have a journey yet to walk? Those who exalt themselves shall be abased, remember this was said; intentions are known by the Spirit of life, if thou seeketh to be a Goddess first be a servant, be as the maid and wash the feet of the people then in time ye may become a Goddess.

[mcusick]

"The church is true because it has the keys because the church is true because it has the keys."

The majority of Snufferites adopt the LDS model and struggle to formulate original ideas beyond what their figure-head(s) has(have) said. You see this on the pro-Snuffer blogs. They just parrot Snuffer's most recent ideas, much like mainstream mormons will literally give talks about general conference talks.

To me, the excessive repeating of leaders' ideas in both groups is tantamount to brown-nosing to gain the attention of the larger group and rise in social standing. They have their reward.