Deleted

[eddie]

For me, if I go to church, the children go to church, and that is every Sunday. If they are too tired because of Saturday night date, prom or whatever. Then they need to come home earlier. I don't look at it as taking away agency, I look at it as stewardship. You don't let immature children make those kind of choices.
Sounds like you have a strong spirit and testimony! I am so happy you made such a good choice at a young age, truly valiant..

[creator]

Hopefully there are a lot more positives than that about your dad. Despite not being LDS, is he religious/spiritual at all?

It's great to be able to make choices that result in happiness (such as with your choice regarding the gospel and church).

[Rose Garden]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

[cyclOps]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Do you "force" your kids to do anything else?

[Rose Garden]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Do you "force" your kids to do anything else?

Not run into the street, wash their hair, go to bed. Yeah, I force them sometimes. I just think it's hypocritical to force them to go to church.

[Jonesy]

Elder Christofferson said in his talk "Moral Discipline":

I have heard a few parents state that they don’t want to impose the gospel on their children but want them to make up their own minds about what they will believe and follow. They think that in this way they are allowing children to exercise their agency. What they forget is that the intelligent use of agency requires knowledge of the truth, of things as they really are (see D&C 93:24). Without that, young people can hardly be expected to understand and evaluate the alternatives that come before them. Parents should consider how the adversary approaches their children. He and his followers are not promoting objectivity but are vigorous, multimedia advocates of sin and selfishness.

[cyclOps]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Do you "force" your kids to do anything else?

Not run into the street, wash their hair, go to bed. Yeah, I force them sometimes. I just think it's hypocritical to force them to go to church.

I guess I don't see the difference.

[creator]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Actually, forcing a child to go to Church does not take away their agency. They still have their agency but you are limiting their freedom. Agency vs Freedom vs Liberty (there is a significant distinction between each that people often miss).

[Jonesy]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Actually, forcing a child to go to Church does not take away their agency. They still have their agency but you are limiting their freedom. Agency vs Freedom vs Liberty (there is a significant distinction between each that people often miss).

Can you by chance point to some material I could read up on that expounds in those points? Particularly in breaking down agency, freedom, and liberty?

[creator]

Can you by chance point to some material I could read up on that expounds in those points? Particularly in breaking down agency, freedom, and liberty?

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2009/06/mora ... y?lang=eng
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/bl ... d-liberty/
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/ed ... happiness/
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/blog/moral-agency/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgvbRQHgpd8

[Rose Garden]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Do you "force" your kids to do anything else?

Not run into the street, wash their hair, go to bed. Yeah, I force them sometimes. I just think it's hypocritical to force them to go to church.

I guess I don't see the difference.

I would have thought the distinction was obvious: physical versus spiritual. The ones have physical consequences while the other have spiritual consequences.

[Rose Garden]

I think it's hypocritical to force kids to go to church so they can learn about how the Lord honors free agency.

Actually, forcing a child to go to Church does not take away their agency. They still have their agency but you are limiting their freedom. Agency vs Freedom vs Liberty (there is a significant distinction between each that people often miss).

Now, where did I say anything about taking away agency? ;)

Regardless of whether you are taking away agency or limiting freedom, I still believe it is hypocritical.

[cyclOps]

Do you "force" your kids to do anything else?

Not run into the street, wash their hair, go to bed. Yeah, I force them sometimes. I just think it's hypocritical to force them to go to church.

I guess I don't see the difference.

I would have thought the distinction was obvious: physical versus spiritual. The ones have physical consequences while the other have spiritual consequences.

Forcing them to go to church is physical, is it not?

[Rose Garden]

Not run into the street, wash their hair, go to bed. Yeah, I force them sometimes. I just think it's hypocritical to force them to go to church.

I guess I don't see the difference.

I would have thought the distinction was obvious: physical versus spiritual. The ones have physical consequences while the other have spiritual consequences.

Forcing them to go to church is physical, is it not?

Yes, it is. And that's exactly why people force their kids to go to church, because of the physical consequences they want their children to experience.....

[creator]

Now, where did I say anything about taking away agency? ;)

You didn't. It was just an opportunity to talk more about agency.

[Different]

We are all converts born into the church or not.

[eddie]

Elder Christofferson said in his talk "Moral Discipline":

I have heard a few parents state that they don’t want to impose the gospel on their children but want them to make up their own minds about what they will believe and follow. They think that in this way they are allowing children to exercise their agency. What they forget is that the intelligent use of agency requires knowledge of the truth, of things as they really are (see D&C 93:24). Without that, young people can hardly be expected to understand and evaluate the alternatives that come before them. Parents should consider how the adversary approaches their children. He and his followers are not promoting objectivity but are vigorous, multimedia advocates of sin and selfishness.

Exactly! How can a child make a decision without being taught. Agency or making a choice means learning something then choosing not to believe it.