"One Hill Cumorah"

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
kittycat51
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1845
Location: Looking for Zion

"One Hill Cumorah"

Post by kittycat51 »

I know this is opening up a can of worms as it always does pertaining to this topic. We all are entitled to our different opinions and it seems that one side of the aisle will never sway the other side. We just agree to disagree. :ymhug: Most of us here on the forum realize regardless of "where" the Book of Mormon took place that it IS true. I just found these quotes very entertaining. Don't kill the messenger :)

In 1835 Oliver Cowdery wrote several letters to W. W. Phelps, who was the editor of the Messenger and Advocate. These were titled, Letter I, Letter II. Letter III, Letter IV, Letter V, Letter VI, Letter VII, and Letter VIII. (Link directs you to the Joseph Smith Papers Online) Both newspapers were published with the direction and approval of the Prophet Joseph Smith. In 1841 these same letters were published in Nauvoo in the Times and Seasons (V. 2, p. 379). These letters were again published in The Improvement Era (1899, Vol. 2, pp. 729-734).
“…Here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon, you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt.” Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII Joseph Smith Papers “Letter VII,” LDS Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, 1:155–159

Quotes from Prophets, Apostles and Saints on “One Cumorah”

1. “I do not believe that the classrooms or the pulpits of our Church are for laboratory purposes in which to experiment with new doctrines and speculative notions. They are exclusively for the use of those who are willing to convert men and women and boys and girls to the truth. . . . I do not believe we should give credence to the highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates. I do not believe we can be good Latter-day Saints and question the integrity of Joseph Smith. I do not believe we can be good Latter-day Saints and question the testimony of the eleven witnesses of the Book of Mormon. I do not believe you have a testimony of the truth if you question the accuracy of the translation of the Book of Mormon.” Mark E. Petersen LDS Conference Reports, Sunday afternoon, April 5, 1953

2. “…This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case… It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Ramah. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all… It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history.” Doctrines of Salvation Joseph Fielding Smith Chapter 12

3. “The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon—a place where divine guidance directed inspired men to create the conditions necessary for the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Elder L. Tom Perry Ensign Dec. 2012

4. “Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York. It was here that Moroni hid up the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. (Morm. 6; Ether 15.) Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine “CUMORAH,” 1966, p. 175)

5. “We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day—Morning Session p. 56)

6. “Aug. 11, Wed: President McCune and I went early to the Grove. Later we were conveyed by auto to the Hill Cumorah by Brother Bean. We climbed the hill and traversed it back and fore and examined it with interest and care. It is the largest of the many glacial drumlins of the locality, and is the most prominent of all the elevations in the neighborhood. Aside from the fact that the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken from this hill, I was greatly interested in looking from its summit over the surrounding region and in contemplating the tremendous battle-scenes of the past, whereby first the Jaredites and later the Nephites were exterminated as nations. I believe the Book of Mormon account without reservation or modification. I believe, also, and express it as my personal conviction, that many ancient records, possibly those from which Mormon made his abridgment, are still concealed in that hill. I believe also that they will be brought forth in the Lord's due time, and that until that time no man will succeed in finding them.” (James E. Talmage Journal Entries, 1920, pg 132-133; Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, BYU: MSS 229, Box 6, Folder 1, Journal 23.)

7. “Millennia ago he declared: “There shall none come into this land [he was speaking of America] save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord… In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation… Thus perished at the foot of Cumorah the remnant of the once mighty Jaredite nation, of whom the Lord had said, “There shall be none greater … upon all the face of the earth.” (Ether 1:43.)… This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites... The tragic fate of the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations is proof positive that the Lord meant it when he said that this “is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.” (Ether 2:9.) This information, wrote Moroni, addressing himself to us who today occupy this land, “cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles” (now, Gentiles is the term used by the Book of Mormon prophets to refer to the present inhabitants of America and to the peoples of the old world from which they came)... Now my beloved brethren and sisters everywhere, both members of the Church and nonmembers, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come. The issue we face is clear and well defined. The choice is ours. The question is: Shall we of this dispensation repent and obey the laws of the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, or shall we continue to defy them until we ripen in iniquity That we will repent and obey and thereby qualify to receive the blessings promised to the righteous in this land, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. Amen." America’s Destiny Marion G. Romney Oct 1975

8. "Oliver Cowdery wrote that the Ephraimites and the Lamanites were the "original settlers of this continent," and that "an ancient prophet caused the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated to be buried nearly two thousand years ago, in which is now called Ontario County, New York. In this same issue, W. W. Phelps wrote that it was "by that book [the Book of Mormon] I learned that the poor Indians of America were of the remnants of Israel." Many other times editor Phelps identified the land of America as being the place where at least some Book of Mormon history took place, including the last battles of both the Jaredites and the Nephites (see Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, October 1835, and the letter of W. W. Phelps to Oliver Cowdery in that same issue.) Oliver Cowdery Latter Day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, pp. 158-159

9. “We shall now introduce much circumstantial evidence, from American antiquities, and from the traditions of the natives, etc. First, says Mr. Boudinot: "It is said among their principal or beloved men, that they have it handed down from their ancestors, that the book which the white people have, was once theirs: that while they had it they prospered exceedingly, etc. They also say, that their fathers were possessed of an extraordinary Divine Spirit, by which they foretold future events, and controlled the common course of nature; and this they transmitted to their offspring, on condition of their obeying the sacred laws; that they did, by these means, bring down showers of blessings upon their beloved people; but that this power, for a long time past, had entirely ceased." Colonel James Smith, in his journal, while a prisoner among the natives, says: "They have a tradition, that in the beginning of this continent, the angels or heavenly inhabitants, as they call them, frequently visited the people, and talked with their forefathers, and gave directions how to pray. Mr. Boudinot, in his able work, remarks concerning their language: "Their language, in its roots, idiom, and particular construction, appears to have the whole genius of the Hebrew; and what is very remarkable, and well worthy of serious attention, has most of the peculiarities of that language." There is a tradition related by an aged Indian, of the Stockbridge tribe, that their fathers were once in possession of a "Sacred Book," which was handed down from generation to generation; and at last hid in the earth, since which time they had been under the feet of their enemies. But these oracles were to be restored to them again; and then they would triumph over their enemies, and regain their rights and privileges.” Quoted from A Voice of Warning An introduction to the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Chapter IV by Parley P. Pratt

10. [Heber C. Kimball] “prophesied that when the final last struggle came to this nation it would be at the Hill Cumorah where both of the former Nations [Jaredite and Nephite] were destroyed" (abt. Heber C. Kimball) Wilford Woodruff's Journal 6:305, December 17, 1866

11. "In 1873, apostles Brigham Young Jr. and George Q. Cannon visited the New York Hill Cumorah and wrote up an account of the same which was published. “Undoubtedly great changes had occurred in the appearance of the surrounding country[side] since the days when Mormon and [his son] Moroni had trod the spot where we stood. Still we could readily understand, even now, how admirable a position this would be [from the hilltop] for a general to occupy in watching and directing the movements of armies and in scrutinizing the position of an enemy. Around Cumorah is yet a land of many waters, rivers and fountains [just] as Mormon said it was in his day. Our emotions on treading on this sacred hill were of the most peculiar character. They were indescribable. This was the hill Ramah of the Jaredites. In this vicinity, Coriantumr and Shiz, with the people whom they led, fought their last battle. For this great battle they were four years preparing, gathering the people together from all parts of the land, and arming men and women, and even children. The battle lasted eight days, and the result was the complete extermination of the Jaredite nation, none being left but the Prophet Ether and Coriantumr, who succeeded in slaying his mortal enemy Shiz. [Ether] and Coriantumr alone, of all that mighty race which had flourished upwards of fifteen hundred, were left. Who can imagine the feelings which he must have had on such an occasion? From the summit of this hill, Mormon and his great son Moroni had also witnessed the gathering of hosts of the Nephites, and the dusky and myriad legions of their deadly enemies, the Lamanites. Around this hill they had marshaled their forces--their twenty-three divisions of ten thousand men each, commanded by the most skillful of their generals, all to be swept away except Moroni. It was here that [Mormon] hid the abridgement which he made of the records [of his people], and which is know known by his name [Book of Mormon]. And it was here, thirty-six years after this tremendous battle, that his son Moroni also hid his abridgment of the book of Ether, and the record which he had made from which we learn the fate of his father, Mormon, and his other companions It was to this spot that about fourteen hundred years after these events, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was led by Moroni in person, and here the records, engraved on plates, were committed to him for translation. Who could tread this ground and reflect upon these mighty events, and not be filled with indescribable emotion?” Brigham Young, Jr. and George Q. Cannon The Latter-Day Saints' Millennial Star,(35 (33): 513-16), Tuesday, August 19th, 1873

12. Just two months and twelve days before his death in 1877, Brigham Young was establishing a new stake in Farmington, Utah. In his discourse, he said the following: “Orrin P. Rockwell is an eyewitness to some powers of removing the treasures of the earth. He was with certain parties that lived nearby where the plates were found that contain the records of the Book of Mormon. There were a great many treasures hid up by the Nephites. Porter was with them one night when there were treasures, and they could find them easy enough, but they could not obtain them. When [Porter] tells a thing he understands, he will tell it just as he knows it; he is a man that does not lie. He said that on this night when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady [Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph's mother] kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so he says this is just as true as the heavens are.” Brigham Young Journal of Discourses (Liverpool, 1878), vol. 19:36-39.

13. "Consider how very fortunate we are to be living in this land of America. Many great events have transpired in this land of destiny. This was the place where Adam dwelt; this was the place where the Garden of Eden was; it was here that Adam met with a body of high priests at Adam-Ondi-Ahman shortly before his death and gave them his final blessing, and the place to which he will return to meet with the leaders of his people (D&C 107:53-57). This was the place of three former civilizations: that of Adam, that of the Jaredites, and that of the Nephites." The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson pp. 587-588

14. McGavin and Bean explain their point of view concerning the identity of the Hill Cumorah as an ancient battlefield. The authors conclude that the scholars "need not search for [Cumorah] in Mexico or Yucatan" E. Cecil McGavin and Willard W. Bean "Cumorah-Land, An Ancient Battlefield," in The Improvement Era 44, September 1941, 526, 571-72.

15. J. Golden Kimball is quoted as saying the following: "Heber C. Kimball said it was revealed to him that the last great destruction of the wicked would be on the lakes near the Hill Cumorah." J. Golden Kimball (abt. Heber C. Kimball) N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High, SLC: Bookcraft, 1941, p. 52.

16. “Once the red men were many; they occupied the country from sea to sea — from the rising to the setting sun; the whole land . . . Thousands of moons ago, when the red men’s forefathers dwelt in peace and possessed this whole land the Great Spirit talked with them, and revealed His law and His will and much knowledge to their wise men and prophets. This they wrote in a Book . . . written on plates of gold and handed down from father to son for many ages and generations. It was then that the people prospered and were strong and mighty; they cultivated the earth, built buildings and cities and abounded in all good things, as the pale faces now do . . . This Book, which contained these things was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county . . . Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three viz.: the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y., the Wyandots, of Ohio and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pp. 56-6; Documentary History of the Church Vol 1: Footnotes 183:2-18

17. "Two great American Christian civilizations—the Jaredites and the Nephites—were swept off this land because they did not “serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). What will become of our civilization?... I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution.
I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God, for God has placed His stamp of approval upon it.
I testify that the God of heaven sent some of His choicest spirits to lay the foundation of this government, and He has now sent other choice spirits to help preserve it.
We, the blessed beneficiaries of the Constitution, face difficult days in America, “a land which is choice above all other lands” (Ether 2:10)… Exra Taft Benson “Our Divine Constitution Ensign Oct 1987

18. “It is as impossible for me to continue the subject of yesterday as to raise the dead. My lungs are worn out. There is a time to all things, and I must wait. I will give it up, and leave the time to those who can make you hear, and I will continue the subject of my discourse some other time. I want to make a proclamation to the Elders. I wanted you to stay, in order that I might make this proclamation. You know very well that the Lord has led this Church by revelation. I have another revelation in relation to economy in the Church--a great, grand, and glorious revelation. I shall not be able to dwell as largely upon it now as at some other time; but I will give you the first principles. You know there has been great discussion in relation to Zion--where it is, and where the gathering of the dispensation is, and which I am now going to tell you. The prophets have spoken and written upon it; but I will make a proclamation that will cover a broader ground. The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south, and is described by the Prophets, who declare that it is the Zion where the mountain of the Lord should be, and that it should be in the center of the land. When Elders shall take up and examine the old prophecies in the Bible, they will see it.” President Joseph Smith's Remarks--The Whole of America Zion--April Conference, 1844 Section Six 1843-44, p.362


19. “What most impressed me last summer on my first and only expedition to Central America was the complete lack of definite information about anything. Never was so little known about so much… It is just a fact of life that no one knows much at all about these oft-photographed and much-talked-about ruins... Counterparts to the great ritual complexes of Central America once dotted the entire eastern United States, the most notable being the Hopewell culture centering in Ohio and spreading out for hundreds of miles along the entire length of the Mississippi River. These are now believed to be definitely related to corresponding centers in Mesoamerica… One thing that leads us to suspect that most of the great powerhouses whose traces still remain were never anything more than pompous imitations or replicas is their sheer magnificence. The archaeologist finds virtually nothing of the remains of the primitive Christian church until the fourth century, because the true church was not interested in buildings and deliberately avoided the acquisition of lands and edifices that might bind it and its interests to this world. The Book of Mormon is a history of a related primitive church, and one may well ask what kind of remains the Nephites would leave us from their more virtuous days. A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica… Though such piles as the great pyramid-temple of Chichén Itzá yield to few buildings in the world in beauty of proportion and grandeur of conception, there is something disturbing about most of these overpowering ruins. Writers describing them through the years have ever confessed to feelings of sadness and oppression as they contemplate the moldy magnificence—the futility of it all: “They have all gone away from the house on the hill,” and today we don’t even know who they were
The great monuments do not represent what the Nephites stood for; rather, they stand for what their descendants, “mixed with the blood of their brethren,” descended to. But seen in the newer and wider perspective of comparative religious studies, they suggest to us not only the vanity of mankind and the futility of man’s unaided efforts, but also something nobler; the constant search of men to recapture a time when the powers of heaven were truly at the disposal of a righteous people.” Ancient Temples: What Do They Signify? By Hugh Nibley September 1972

20. “The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3 definitely established the following facts: That the hill Cumorah, and the hill Ramah are identical. That it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites fought their great last battles. That it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them." Anthony Ivins Improvement Era June 1928

21. “On the title page I read that it is “written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile.” In the introduction to the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, it says that the Lamanites “are among the ancestors of the American Indians.” As I read the Book of Mormon, it seemed to me that it was about my American Indian ancestors. It tells the story of a people, a part of which were later described as “Lamanites,” who migrated from Jerusalem to a “land of promise” (1 Nephi 2:20) about 600 B.C.” “Come unto Me, O Ye House of Israel” By Elder Larry Echo Hawk of the Seventy Ensign Oct 2012

22. "But while this direct testimony from the Prophet himself is lacking, it is not lacking from those who are competent to speak on the subject--and who did speak of it and who published their statements, and one of these in the life time of the prophet, Oliver Cowdery, close associate with Joseph Smith in bringing forth the Book of Mormon, and his chief amanuensis in the translation of it, declares this hill from which the Book of Mormon was taken to be the Hill Cumorah, the place where Mormon deposited "all the records in his possession, except his abridgment from the plates of Nephi which he gave to his son; and also emphatically declares it to be the scene of the destruction of both the Jaredite and Nephite people. This statement Oliver published in the Church organ at the time, called the "Saints Messenger and Advocate," Kirtland, Ohio, 1834. There are nine letters published under the title of "Early Scenes and Incidents in the Church." These letters were reproduced in the Improvement Era, Vol. II, 1898-9”. Written for the Deseret News by B. H. Roberts.

23. "From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself. I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, at the outlet of Honeyoye Lake. In that region there are many small deep lakes, and in some of them the bottom has never been found. Fish abound in them. The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States. Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A. D., 385. Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now whispering from the dust." Life of Heber C. Kimball by Orson F. Whitney Mounds at Cumorah

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by brianj »

I'm too lazy to do my own research after the week I've had, but are there any quotes from Apostles supporting a two Cumorah history?

User avatar
Alaris
Captain of 144,000
Posts: 7354
Location: Present before the general assembly
Contact:

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Alaris »

You should put up a poll at the begging kittycat. I vote one. :)

davedan
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3064
Location: Augusta, GA
Contact:

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by davedan »

I like Wayne May am a "One Hill Guy".

However, what we call Cumorah where the plates were deposited and discovered is not necessarily the hill where the Nephites and Jeredites had their last battle.

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by gardener4life »

brianj wrote: July 28th, 2017, 8:22 pm I'm too lazy to do my own research after the week I've had, but are there any quotes from Apostles supporting a two Cumorah history?
This is actually a good question. I'm glad you asked because this is a point of confusion that some people have. I want to tell you the first thread here with all those references painted out is very thorough and true. It's true that there is only 1 hill Cumorah and that it's in New York. I think that part of why this confusion has occurred is the adversary trying to lead people astray and people not reading their scriptures as they should. (I am not saying you are one of those people. Because people will try to adamantly say that the real hill is not in New York, and even I've heard people say this. Their uncle or grandparent probably was telling too many white buffalo stories and things got blurred. But these are still good people and they have testimonies just that they got a few facts strayed.)

Here I think is why there evolved two versions of two hill Cumorahs....

When you read and pick up Mormon chapter 1, in particular verse 3 you read that some of the plates rested at the hill Shim, in the land of Antum. There they had been put by Ammoron while Mormon was growing up with tons of other records all put together.

I think people are confusing this hill Shim with the hill Cumorah. It's also possible there are still other records 'hid up unto the lord'. But the Lord wants us to have a testimony of the gospel and not a testimony of history. So I wouldn't count on seeing these other records...

It is noted that the plates didn't stay there at the hill Shim while in Mormon's possession. After receiving them, he traveled with the Nephite armies trying to save his people to the end, even at times hoping for a chance to turn them back to the Jesus, and Heavenly Father. Also many years passed between when Mormon was a boy and was told by Ammoron to go to the hill Shim in the land of Antum, and when Moroni received the plates, added his own words, and hid them up thereafter. But it's clear neither Mormon or Moroni stayed at the hill Shim. Also in his own words he calls the hill where the final record was deposited Cumorah, which was the name in his own language not the language of others. This is significant because it points out there would be no reason for him to call Shim and Cumorah the same place but two names. There are also records of numerous place battles between the two events to show that they were in many places, defending cities that fell one after another causing them to flee with their people, (and protect those fleeing.) That's pretty admirable what they went through if you think about it. It's still not definitive how many of the cities falling that Mormon describes, he was at in person though because he sort of leaves that part out, but he does describe how awful the treatment of each side to the other was, which implies he was at some of them, plus he was a Nephite commander. (Someone else will point out that he refused to lead them for a time however.)

Also Mormon 4, we read;

23 And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord. (So there were other records there is confirmed. But it also implies they might not be anything at all there anymore. Comparing this verse with the 1st chapter it suggests but isn't definitive that he did visit this spot several times.)

At any rate what's most important is our testimony of Jesus Christ as the Savior, and of the restoration of the gospel including modern prophets. These are facts, that people will probably be arguing about for years even though this argument has been tried to put down many times.

Today in particular I was reading how there's a tie in between the scriptures about making bare the arm of Jehovah and the idea of the loving arms of Christ, or the concept of mercy and saving us from the ills of this world. This seems more beautiful to me than where the plates where, but yeah I understand why we're all curious about such a place. :)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/04/the- ... t?lang=eng

User avatar
Craig Johnson
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Craig Johnson »

The Book of Mormon history occurred in the promised land and that ain't in Central America, or Canada or South America. Central America is the unpromised land with jungles and no Solomon-like temples, it is filled with dark and loathsome histories none of which have anything to do with Book of Mormon history. To paraphrase President Brigham Young, "It ain't the place." Now, let's do some missionary work and stop worrying about this.

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by gclayjr »

I suppose that on a Forum named LDS Freedom Forum, one might expect that well researched scholarship by Mormon Apologetic scholars would carry some weight. However, I detect that here, people prefer to argue over Jots and tittles to discredit LDS Scholarship rather than actually read it.

However if there is anybody on this thread who isn't looking to bash the LDS Church, here is a well documented dissertation on this from Fairmormon.org

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... Cumorah%3F

Regards,

George Clay

EdGoble
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1077

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by EdGoble »

My book Resurrecting Cumorah (available on Amazon, and for download on my blogs and on the download section of this site) argues the case for a New York hill without trying to appeal to prophetic statements, a direction that needs to be taken. However, the implication is that the Heartland theory is wrong, but that a semi-limited/semi-hemispherical approach is correct, where Mesoamerica is the land southward, but with an extended land Northward above the neck of Tehuantepec. Its not that I don't believe in the prophetic statements. Its that, not all prophetic statements are equal, especially the supposed one about Lehi in Chile. Furthermore, the prophetic statements used by the Heartland theorists contradict Joseph Smith's statement in the Levi Hancock journal that the land of Desolation is in the United States. Anyone that has studied internal geography knows that the narrow neck must be south of desolation, pushing the Narrow neck into Mesoamerica. So to follow logic (that is, in my personal belief system, not to impose on anyone else), you must either reject Joseph Smith's statement in the Hancock journal to be a Heartlander, or you must accept a semi-Limited-semi-Hemisperhcial theory. The most problematic of all internal geography is that for how far the Narrow Neck is from Cumorah. The rest of the internal geography without a doubt points to a relatively small area south of the narrow neck.

"Next morning we started on our journey in good spirits. On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side. In the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that were brought back with a broken arrow. They were laid down by our camp. Joseph Smith addressing himself to Sylvester Smith and said, "This is what I told you and now I want to tell you that you may know what I meant. This land was called the land of desolation and Onedages was the King and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead and did not dig holes as the people do now, but they brought their dirt and covered them until you see they have raised it to be about one hundred feet high. The last man buried was Zelf or Telf. He was a white Lamanite who fought with the people of Onedagus for freedom. When he was a young man he was a great warrior and had his thigh broken and never was set. It knitted together as you see on the side. He fought after it got strength until he lost every tooth in his head save one, when the Lord said he had done enough and suffered him to be killed by that arrow you took from his breast. These words he said as the camp was moving off the mounds as near as I could learn he had told them something about the mound and got them to go and see it for themselves. I then remembered what he had said a few days before while passing many mounds on our way that was left of us. Said he, "These are the bodies of wicked men who have died and are angry at us and if they can take the advantage of us they will, for if we live they will have no hope." I could not comprehend it, but supposed it was alright."
https://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/LHancock.html

Basic internal geography, going from Northward to southward:

Land of Desolation with Cumorah
----------------------------------------
Exceedingly Great Distance (i.e. the extended land desolation between the neck and Cumorah)
----------------------------------------
Neck of Land
----------------------------------------
Land of Zarahemla
----------------------------------------
Land of Nephi

It is on the point of the exceedingly great distance between the neck and Cumorah that the Mesoamericanists are in disagreement with, yet that is what the text demands, in its plainest and non-convoluted interpretation. I agree with Mesoamericanists that the Land of Zarahemla was in Mesoamerica.

User avatar
Craig Johnson
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Craig Johnson »

gclayjr wrote: February 9th, 2018, 12:37 pm I suppose that on a Forum named LDS Freedom Forum, one might expect that well researched scholarship by Mormon Apologetic scholars would carry some weight. However, I detect that here, people prefer to argue over Jots and tittles to discredit LDS Scholarship rather than actually read it.

However if there is anybody on this thread who isn't looking to bash the LDS Church, here is a well documented dissertation on this from Fairmormon.org

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... Cumorah%3F

Regards,

George Clay
Saying that the Book of Mormon history did not occur in not the promised land is not LDS Church bashing, not by a long stretch. Don't assume that we or I have not read everything available on this, which really is a waste of time and money, except for those who are profiting.

User avatar
kittycat51
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1845
Location: Looking for Zion

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by kittycat51 »

You know, concerning the "narrow neck of land". I have learned to not try and figure out geographically just exactly where that is. I was reading again just the other day in 3 Nephi 9. There were 16 great Nephi cities mentioned, that were destroyed at the death of Christ. Some of those were sunk into the sea thus being covered by water. 4 were "sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof". And to quote Jesus in 3 Nephi 9:12 "And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land..."

In my mind, however the BofM geography is explained in Alma, after Christ came things did not look the same afterwards or as it does now. People take way too much stock in that in my simple opinion.

User avatar
Craig Johnson
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Craig Johnson »

This subject is unimportant except to people making a profit off it. Yes, that rhymes. You can debate this until the end of mortality and it won't prove one thing or another. You are entitled to your opinion about this, but you should not be making a profit off it.

EdGoble
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1077

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by EdGoble »

Craig Johnson wrote: February 9th, 2018, 3:25 pm This subject is unimportant except to people making a profit off it. Yes, that rhymes. You can debate this until the end of mortality and it won't prove one thing or another. You are entitled to your opinion about this, but you should not be making a profit off it.
It's true that it will not prove anything, but it answers questions for people that want to know, to figure it out, to satiate their curiosity, and good-intentioned people actually have figured out good explanations, even though some disagree with them, and the various theorists will never agree with each other.

Your assumption that people that have explained it are making a profit off of it is a little offensive, because it is a judgment of people's hearts that you do not know. It is only true in some cases. As for my part I am giving it away as a free download. Secondly, because I never made much off of it, even in the rare occurrence that somebody actually does by the physical book, it is priced at the bare minimum that Amazon will sell it for (to the cent), and I would even push the price lower if they let me, because I literally do not make hardly a cent off of it, because I literally do give the information away for all intents and purposes. So you are plain wrong about that in the cases of people like me that literally and practically give books away, who have a day job with a good salary that don't need to make a business of priest craft out of mere curiosities. You are not my judge, and I have never made significant money off books.

User avatar
Craig Johnson
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Craig Johnson »

EdGoble wrote: February 9th, 2018, 4:12 pm
Craig Johnson wrote: February 9th, 2018, 3:25 pm This subject is unimportant except to people making a profit off it. Yes, that rhymes. You can debate this until the end of mortality and it won't prove one thing or another. You are entitled to your opinion about this, but you should not be making a profit off it.
It's true that it will not prove anything, but it answers questions for people that want to know, to figure it out, to satiate their curiosity, and good-intentioned people actually have figured out good explanations, even though some disagree with them, and the various theorists will never agree with each other.

Your assumption that people that have explained it are making a profit off of it is a little offensive, because it is a judgment of people's hearts that you do not know. It is only true in some cases. As for my part I am giving it away as a free download. Secondly, because I never made much off of it, even in the rare occurrence that somebody actually does by the physical book, it is priced at the bare minimum that Amazon will sell it for (to the cent), and I would even push the price lower if they let me, because I literally do not make hardly a cent off of it, because I literally do give the information away for all intents and purposes. So you are plain wrong about that in the cases of people like me that literally and practically give books away, who have a day job with a good salary that don't need to make a business of priest craft out of mere curiosities. You are not my judge, and I have never made significant money off books.
I think your qualification is valuable and I appreciate your sacrifice.

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by gardener4life »

I just want to point out one thing and one thing only. This idea of where Cumorah is and the lands of the book of Mormon shows how much harm comes from choosing to NOT hear non-apostles, prophets, and inspired teachers first and before people that completely ignored apostles, prophets, and inspired teachers. How can they be right if they ignore inspired prophets and leaders?

We can learn from that. It's especially obvious when you see the quotes of the earlier leaders and how many of them said certain things about Cumorah.

And you see how much time it takes for people to get past this idea. I've gone over this topic with people in my family before. And you can show them string after string of text of early prophets and they will have a hard time because 1) they aren't reading their scriptures and praying as they should. And 2) they had years of exposure to these 'other' ideas before hearing the correct ones. And correcting that after hearing the wrong sources that ignored prophets and apostles takes time to sink in. But then you have to be careful doing so in a way that doesn't destroy faith. That false idea miht still have inspired them to read scriptures at one point. So you have to tread lightly still.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10895
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by larsenb »

gclayjr wrote: February 9th, 2018, 12:37 pm I suppose that on a Forum named LDS Freedom Forum, one might expect that well researched scholarship by Mormon Apologetic scholars would carry some weight. However, I detect that here, people prefer to argue over Jots and tittles to discredit LDS Scholarship rather than actually read it.

However if there is anybody on this thread who isn't looking to bash the LDS Church, here is a well documented dissertation on this from Fairmormon.org

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... Cumorah%3F

Regards,

George Clay

Good article from FAIR. Here is an extract from it.
Question: Where is the Hill Cumorah?

Joseph Smith never used the name "Cumorah" in his own writings when referring to the gold plates' resting place

It is not clear exactly when the New York hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates became associated with the name "Cumorah." Joseph Smith never used the name in his own writings when referring to the plates' resting place. The only use of it from his pen seems to be DC 128:20, which uses the phrase "Glad tidings from Cumorah!" In 1830, Oliver Cowdery referred to the records' location as "Cumorah," while preaching to the Delaware Indians, and by 1835 the term seems to have been in common use among Church members.[1]

Early Church leaders believed that the Book of Mormon took place on the entire North and South American continents

However, there is evidence that Joseph Smith and other Church leaders believed that the events of the Book of Mormon spanned the North and South American continents, that the isthmus of Panama was the "narrow neck" of land, and that the hill in New York was the "Cumorah" referred to in the Book of Mormon. Joseph wrote a letter to Emma during Zion's Camp in which he referred to "wandering over the plains of the Nephites." [2] Oliver Cowdery wrote in one of his letters to W.W. Phelps published in the Messenger and Advocate:

A history of the inhabitants who peopled this continent, previous to its being discovered to Europeans by Columbus, must be interesting to every man; and as it would develope the important fact, that the present race were descendants of Abraham....[3]

Note that "this continent" refers to both North and South America; Columbus never set foot in the present day United States; he was confined to the the Caribbean, South America and Central America. (Click here for maps of Columbus' voyages.)

David Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church

One reference comes from a later interview with David Whitmer, who recounted how Oliver Cowdery had written to him, asking for help to transport Joseph and Oliver from Harmony to the Peter Whitmer home in Fayette:

When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned, wooden, spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.[4]

Interestingly, Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church. Given that Whitmer's reminiscence is late, and unsubstantiated by other contemporaneous accounts, some historians question its accuracy, especially in a detail such as the name of the Hill, which later became common Church usage.[5]

The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates

Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same.

In 1937–1939 Washburn and Washburn argued that the Nephite/Jaredite final battles at the Hill Cumorah were near the narrow neck of land, and thus unlikely to be in New York.[6] Thomas Ferguson was of the same view in 1947,[7]and Sidney Sperry came down on the side of a Middle America location in a 1964 BYU religion class,[8] though he had previously endorsed a New York location.[9]

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10895
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by larsenb »

Craig Johnson wrote: February 9th, 2018, 3:25 pm This subject is unimportant except to people making a profit off it. Yes, that rhymes. You can debate this until the end of mortality and it won't prove one thing or another. You are entitled to your opinion about this, but you should not be making a profit off it.
Nope, as Ed Goble avers.

As I've mentioned it before, many people really enjoy trying to find the actual location of the main Book of Mormon events, and regard the search fascinating, very much like Schlieman's search for Troy, etc.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9912

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by JohnnyL »

larsenb wrote: February 10th, 2018, 5:12 pm
gclayjr wrote: February 9th, 2018, 12:37 pm I suppose that on a Forum named LDS Freedom Forum, one might expect that well researched scholarship by Mormon Apologetic scholars would carry some weight. However, I detect that here, people prefer to argue over Jots and tittles to discredit LDS Scholarship rather than actually read it.

However if there is anybody on this thread who isn't looking to bash the LDS Church, here is a well documented dissertation on this from Fairmormon.org

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... Cumorah%3F

Regards,

George Clay

Good article from FAIR. Here is an extract from it.
Question: Where is the Hill Cumorah?

Joseph Smith never used the name "Cumorah" in his own writings when referring to the gold plates' resting place

It is not clear exactly when the New York hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates became associated with the name "Cumorah." Joseph Smith never used the name in his own writings when referring to the plates' resting place. The only use of it from his pen seems to be DC 128:20, which uses the phrase "Glad tidings from Cumorah!" In 1830, Oliver Cowdery referred to the records' location as "Cumorah," while preaching to the Delaware Indians, and by 1835 the term seems to have been in common use among Church members.[1]

Early Church leaders believed that the Book of Mormon took place on the entire North and South American continents

However, there is evidence that Joseph Smith and other Church leaders believed that the events of the Book of Mormon spanned the North and South American continents, that the isthmus of Panama was the "narrow neck" of land, and that the hill in New York was the "Cumorah" referred to in the Book of Mormon. Joseph wrote a letter to Emma during Zion's Camp in which he referred to "wandering over the plains of the Nephites." [2] Oliver Cowdery wrote in one of his letters to W.W. Phelps published in the Messenger and Advocate:

A history of the inhabitants who peopled this continent, previous to its being discovered to Europeans by Columbus, must be interesting to every man; and as it would develope the important fact, that the present race were descendants of Abraham....[3]

Note that "this continent" refers to both North and South America; Columbus never set foot in the present day United States; he was confined to the the Caribbean, South America and Central America. (Click here for maps of Columbus' voyages.)

David Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church

One reference comes from a later interview with David Whitmer, who recounted how Oliver Cowdery had written to him, asking for help to transport Joseph and Oliver from Harmony to the Peter Whitmer home in Fayette:

When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned, wooden, spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.[4]

Interestingly, Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church. Given that Whitmer's reminiscence is late, and unsubstantiated by other contemporaneous accounts, some historians question its accuracy, especially in a detail such as the name of the Hill, which later became common Church usage.[5]

The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates

Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same.

In 1937–1939 Washburn and Washburn argued that the Nephite/Jaredite final battles at the Hill Cumorah were near the narrow neck of land, and thus unlikely to be in New York.[6] Thomas Ferguson was of the same view in 1947,[7]and Sidney Sperry came down on the side of a Middle America location in a 1964 BYU religion class,[8] though he had previously endorsed a New York location.[9]
So where's the response to all the quotes in the OP?

User avatar
Kingdom of ZION
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1939

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

I have spent almost a half a century pondering this. What I was shown in vision 2005 is what I know to be true. I was shown a image that I realized later through praying upon the subject was a map and I was given to understand what was shown me that looked like a hand with long squiggling fingers and the thumb on the right side, were five rivers. I was told that the Hill of Cumorah was between the fingers and the right thumb. I then was shown an image of what I was later told was the Keeper of the Records. He was not shown to me but I was told he was Native American, as I could not see any part of him. From head to toe, where strings tied to vertical bone tubes, and he was swaying side to side (dancing?). I was told the bone tubes represented records.

Three years later I was commanded to move to a area east of this great hill. As I have passing by this hill at night while moving, I began to see many strange things. I came to realize I was seeing a skin walker. To date, and as resent as last summer, I have seen it in 12 different forms. People who have been traveling with me have also seen some of things I have seen. I have for years now just call it 'creepy mountain'.

I met Rod Meldrum at his second presentation years ago, in Provo. I gave him a unpublished manuscript on the Hill of Cumorah, and the land of many rivers and waters, anciently in the western United States. He has spent years trying to say that there is "One Cumorah". Who is he trying to convince?

JS was to have told Mosiah Hancock, the traveling of these peoples... and we must go south from SL, if we wish to live the Gospel that He would have us live. When the time comes for the Saints to return back to Zion, we will not travel in a horseshoe like before, this time we will "travel to where the Nephites lost their power". We will wait there! I will tell you of the truth... Mosiah was not making this prophecy up, and falsely attributing it to JS... and no we are not going to walk all the way to New York, and wave to Zion while we are passing by it!
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on February 18th, 2018, 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9912

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by JohnnyL »

Kingdom of ZION wrote: February 11th, 2018, 12:00 am I have spent almost a half a century pondering this. What I was shown in vision 2005 is what I know to be true. I was shown a image that I realized later through pray upon the subject was a map and I was given to understand what was shown me that looked like a hand with long squiggling fingers and the thumb on the right side, were five rivers. I was told that the Hill of Cumorah was between the fingers and the right thumb. I then was shown an image of what I was later told was the Keeper of the Records. He was not shown to me but I was told he was Native American, as I could not see any part of him. From head to toe, where strings tied to vertical bone tubes, and he was swaying side to side (dancing?). I was told the bone tubes represented records.

Three years later I was commanded to move to a area east of this great hill. As I have passing by this hill at night while moving, I began to see many strange things. I came to realize I was seeing a skin walker. To date, and as resent as last summer, I have seen it in 12 different forms. People who have been traveling with me have also seen some of things I have seen. I have for years now just call it 'creepy mountain'.

I met Rod Meldrum at his second presentation years ago, in Provo. I gave him a unpublished manuscript on the Hill of Cumorah, and the land of many rivers and waters, anciently in the western United States. He has spent years trying to say that there is "One Cumorah". Who is he trying to convince?

JS was to have told Mosiah Hancock, the traveling of these peoples... and we must go south from SL, if we wish to live the Gospel that He would have us live. When the time comes for the Saints to return back to Zion, we will not travel in a horseshoe like before, this time we will "travel to where the Nephites lost their power". We will wait there! I will tell you of the truth... Mosiah was not making this prophecy up, and falsely attributing it to JS... and no we are not going to walk all the way to New York, and wave to Zion while we are passing by it!
That vision sounds just like NY...

BTW, JS's quote seems to say, "Missouri."

User avatar
Kingdom of ZION
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1939

Re: "One Hill Cumorah"

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Mosiah Hancock's Journal


The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter
shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. "Now," he
said, "I will show you the travels of this people." He then showed our travels
thou Iowa, and said, "Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you
will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will
build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West;
and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land. But, the United
States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live, and
you will have to go to where the Nephites lost their power. They worked in the
United Order for 166 years, and the Saints have got to become proficient in
the laws of God before they can meet the Lord Jesus Christ, or even the city
of Enoch." He said we will not travel the shape of the horse shoe for there we
will await the action of the government. Placing his finger on the map, I
should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been
Mexico
, he said, "The government will not receive you with the laws that God
designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will
have to go South.
You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who
will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior,
Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly
learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true
followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty.
There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called
the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to
war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the
Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and
means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, "Let's divide up
the lands of the United States," then the people of the U.S. will unite and
swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided.
Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the
U.S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep
on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give
up--when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the
American Army from [20] defeat and ruin. And they will say, `Brethren, we are
glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God.' Then you
will have friends, but you will save the country when its liberty hangs by a
hair, as it were."

So, we will have to go South of the Great Salt Lake, and it appears more like Southeasterly. The Hopis area, Mesa Verde, Valley of the Ancients! They tried for a 166 years and fail to build Zion, we have to for the Second Coming to come! It appears we will be doing it in the very same place as they did. It is where the Nephites lost their power! At the Hill of Ramah, also known as Cumorah.

Post Reply