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Thinker
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Thinker »

I agree, and I wish finances were handled better.

One important teaching on tithing, I didn't learn until recently despite being raised in the church. If you look in lds paper-scripture index or dictionary under "tithing" you will not find Deuteronomy 14:28-29 which commands that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. Yet, despite lds church finances not being open, Elder Oaks said that no tithes go to help the poor - that we need to pay extra for charity.

How sad. How many people suffer because they do not receive tithes so desperately needed. The World Health Organization estimates about 1,000,000,000 people are "chronically hungry."

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Robin Hood
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Robin Hood »

Thinker wrote: July 30th, 2017, 11:59 am I agree, and I wish finances were handled better.

One important teaching on tithing, I didn't learn until recently despite being raised in the church. If you look in lds paper-scripture index or dictionary under "tithing" you will not find Deuteronomy 14:28-29 which commands that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to the poor. Yet, despite lds church finances not being open, Elder Oaks said that no tithes go to help the poor - that we need to pay extra for charity.

How sad. How many people suffer because they do not receive tithes so desperately needed. The World Health Organization estimates about 1,000,000,000 people are "chronically hungry."
The reason why tithes do not go to the poor is given in D&C 119. This section clearly explains what tithing in the restored church is to be used for.
1. Temple and chapel building.
2. Establishing the foundations of Zion, and of the priesthood.
3. Paying the debts of the Presidency.
I would suggest this supercedes instructions given in Deuteronomy or anywhere else.

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shadow
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by shadow »

The Lord states in the D&C exactly what tithing is to be used for in our day. OT requirements don't apply once the Lord has spoken differently.

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

However, the church does use tithing funds for the poor also. The Bishops storehouses are vastly tithing funded, including the physical buildings and the costs to maintain them and the church owned semi-trucks and the paid drivers who deliver the goods etc. etc.
Tithing doesn't do it all, obviously. Fast offering funds are used for electric bills, rent/mortgage payments, clothing, food, medical etc. on a more local basis via bishops.
Tithing also funds LDS Family Services which provides counseling etc. to those in need- the poor and the poor in spirit. The church provides a lot of help in teaching a man to fish while at the same time giving him fish. A majority of that is funded via tithing. I just spoke with someone today who is going back to school for dirt cheap at BYU-Idaho using their online courses. It's heavily subsidized by...... that's right, tithing! Liberal democrat professors still won't work for free.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Robin Hood »

shadow wrote: July 30th, 2017, 3:11 pm

The Bishops storehouses are vastly tithing funded, including the physical buildings and the costs to maintain them and the church owned semi-trucks and the paid drivers who deliver the goods etc. etc.
I think you'll find that is not correct.

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shadow
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by shadow »

Robin Hood wrote: July 30th, 2017, 3:36 pm
shadow wrote: July 30th, 2017, 3:11 pm

The Bishops storehouses are vastly tithing funded, including the physical buildings and the costs to maintain them and the church owned semi-trucks and the paid drivers who deliver the goods etc. etc.
I think you'll find that is not correct.
Based on what?
Back in college I spoke with one of the employed guys who helped manage the salt lake storehouse and that's what he told me.

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Thinker
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Thinker »

Maybe your friend confused "bishop's storehouse" with "Lord's storehouse" - the big pot that is a corporate empire, including various shopping malls etc.

According to Elder Oaks, not a penny of tithes goes to charity.
"The contributions we should make to charities come from our own funds, not from the tithes we are commanded to pay to the storehouse of the Lord."- DH Oaks
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... g?lang=eng
Because church finances are kept secret, we're lucky to know this much.

According to Jesus, the highest commandments - above all D&C commandments - is to love others - like the good Samaritan. There are many starving to death & being denied TITHES that are meant for them. Jesus was clear & repeatedly explained the need to help the poor. The commandment of 1/3 of TITHES to go to the poor is the lower law - Jesus suggested giving much more.

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shadow
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by shadow »

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

There it is- fast offerings are for the purpose of feeding and clothing the poor among us.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Col. Flagg »

I just wish the church would come clean with the truth about what the Lord really expects as a tithe.

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shadow
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by shadow »

Col. Flagg wrote: July 31st, 2017, 1:40 pm I just wish the church would come clean with the truth about what the Lord really expects as a tithe.
A tenth of your increase. Start with zero and anything above that you pay a tenth.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Col. Flagg »

shadow wrote: July 31st, 2017, 4:05 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: July 31st, 2017, 1:40 pm I just wish the church would come clean with the truth about what the Lord really expects as a tithe.
A tenth of your increase. Start with zero and anything above that you pay a tenth.
10% of your increase, right... and what is 'increase'? Not one's gross or net income, it is what is left over after one's basic needs have been met. Surplus, surplus advantage, over-plus, excess, beyond that which ye have need. Look up the 1820 definition of 'interest' my friend. Why did the Lord set it up this way? Say you have a single man living in his parent's basement - he earns $3,000 per month and he has no bills to pay except a car payment and auto insurance. The next man also earns $3,000, but he has a spouse and 2 children and his necessary living expenses come to $2,700 a month. Is it just that they both have the same tithing requirement?

scottja
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by scottja »

I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Col. Flagg »

scottja wrote: August 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.
The man who is married has a tithing requirement of $30 while the man who is single has (say his car payment is $200 and auto insurance is $100) has a tithing requirement of $270.

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cyclOps
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by cyclOps »

Col. Flagg wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:27 pm
scottja wrote: August 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.
The man who is married has a tithing requirement of $30 while the man who is single has (say his car payment is $200 and auto insurance is $100) has a tithing requirement of $270.
So the more bills I decide to rack up the less tithing I have to pay?

nvr
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by nvr »

cyclOps wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:33 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:27 pm
scottja wrote: August 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.
The man who is married has a tithing requirement of $30 while the man who is single has (say his car payment is $200 and auto insurance is $100) has a tithing requirement of $270.
So the more bills I decide to rack up the less tithing I have to pay?
It's up to you to decide what bills are necessary for life and which are not. You might determine you won't include eating out, internet / cable bills, vacations, expensive car stereos etc.

gardener4life
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by gardener4life »

Well you can go all kinds of crazy with this conversation. If you are comparing the guy single with the guy with a family are we going to make the guy with 10 kids give 1 away too? XD

I don't know if its fair to compare married guys to single too because often the married guy is portrayed as getting all these family members who are 'expenses' but the single guy didn't get the chance to be married and receive those blessings. The married guy's family is an opportunity not an expense. So he's not 'suffering' by having a wife and children and using them as expense excuses can be wrong if done in some ways.

Well I digress...what I mean to say is people can come up with some weird stuff as what they think of as rules. It doesn't need to be like filing a federal tax return form with 10 pages of deductions to go through. It's supposed to be simple and just honest with hearts of gratitude. We shouldn't have to go over every little point. And it's weird to penalize people living at home too for whoever said the guy living at home should pay full market value of 'rent' from living with parents. In the end people just have a stigma against people living at home that are young adults; that's a kind of discrimination.

Also comparing it too much to taxes isn't good. You know when you look at corporations there are tons of ways they can hide income, as expenses. I could go into this but won't because it's a headache to explain but anyone who has worked in accounting can tell you there are ways of hiding money. Thus, I wouldn't compare it to taxes, except to point out how big corporations steal from the government easily.

Dave62
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Dave62 »

This has descended into a lillipution discussion. Tithes have very little to do with money or amounts of money, but with faith.

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Jesef
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Jesef »

I believe tithing is a "tenth (10%) of interest" annually, closest modern meaning would be "profit" or savings - what you're able to save - after basic needs and even unplanned expenses and emergencies. In other words, the Lord is not penalizing or taxing people on basic survival/needs - and that this includes all offerings (including fast offerings - tithing used to be used for the poor - now it's a different/separate category). This is why the poor, those who only have sufficient to subsist, would "owe" nothing, because they either have nothing left over after meeting their basic needs or are actually underwater (in which case, if at all possible, they should downsize to be within their means - we've all grown accustomed to a very high standard of living in the western world). Gross tithing (tithing on gross income) can put poor people underwater/in-debt in a hurry. I saw it over and over again as a bishop. This is my belief and interpretation. I understand that some of the Brethren have given their differing opinions from the pulpit, but this still falls within the guidelines of the handbook - which says that the calculation of tithing is between the member and the Lord.

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ajax
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by ajax »

Heaven forbid people govern themselves.

We need rules [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]!

We MUST be commanded in all things. Uniformity. Compliancy. That way, we don't have to deal with the annoyance of others doing things differently than ourselves.

"Please, please, tell me what this word means" (hot, interest, etc)

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cyclOps
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by cyclOps »

nvr wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 12:07 am
cyclOps wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:33 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:27 pm
scottja wrote: August 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.
The man who is married has a tithing requirement of $30 while the man who is single has (say his car payment is $200 and auto insurance is $100) has a tithing requirement of $270.
So the more bills I decide to rack up the less tithing I have to pay?
It's up to you to decide what bills are necessary for life and which are not. You might determine you won't include eating out, internet / cable bills, vacations, expensive car stereos etc.
Or I could choose to pay on gross or net income.

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cyclOps
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by cyclOps »

gardener4life wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 12:58 am Well you can go all kinds of crazy with this conversation. If you are comparing the guy single with the guy with a family are we going to make the guy with 10 kids give 1 away too? XD

I don't know if its fair to compare married guys to single too because often the married guy is portrayed as getting all these family members who are 'expenses' but the single guy didn't get the chance to be married and receive those blessings. The married guy's family is an opportunity not an expense. So he's not 'suffering' by having a wife and children and using them as expense excuses can be wrong if done in some ways.

Well I digress...what I mean to say is people can come up with some weird stuff as what they think of as rules. It doesn't need to be like filing a federal tax return form with 10 pages of deductions to go through. It's supposed to be simple and just honest with hearts of gratitude. We shouldn't have to go over every little point. And it's weird to penalize people living at home too for whoever said the guy living at home should pay full market value of 'rent' from living with parents. In the end people just have a stigma against people living at home that are young adults; that's a kind of discrimination.

Also comparing it too much to taxes isn't good. You know when you look at corporations there are tons of ways they can hide income, as expenses. I could go into this but won't because it's a headache to explain but anyone who has worked in accounting can tell you there are ways of hiding money. Thus, I wouldn't compare it to taxes, except to point out how big corporations steal from the government easily.
I hope we can all agree paying more tithing than the next guy is not a penalty.

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cyclOps
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by cyclOps »

ajax wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 9:00 am Heaven forbid people govern themselves.

We need rules [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]!

We MUST be commanded in all things. Uniformity. Compliancy. That way, we don't have to deal with the annoyance of others doing things differently than ourselves.

"Please, please, tell me what this word means" (hot, interest, etc)
Man should govern himself, but there has to be a standard to which he governs. Whether it's his own or God's, or something else, there is a standard. The problem is trying to govern according to God's standard and not our own or someone else's.

MMbelieve
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by MMbelieve »

cyclOps wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 10:15 am
ajax wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 9:00 am Heaven forbid people govern themselves.

We need rules [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]!

We MUST be commanded in all things. Uniformity. Compliancy. That way, we don't have to deal with the annoyance of others doing things differently than ourselves.

"Please, please, tell me what this word means" (hot, interest, etc)
Man should govern himself, but there has to be a standard to which he governs. Whether it's his own or God's, or something else, there is a standard. The problem is trying to govern according to God's standard and not our own or someone else's.
The church leaves it up to the member to decide himself. Like the temple recommend interview, it is up to the member to decide if he is worthy to attend after a series of questions (the standard). There is no series of questions when asked if you paid a full tithe. People just want a standard and it isint given as clearly as we would like. That doesn't mean we need to be governed in all things, it means we want to know the standard so we can be sure to meet it.

But based on how things are done, it doesn't seem that important. But I always thought it was. If its.considered fire insurrance and the windows.of heaven will open to you, it would be nice to know if one is meeting that sufficiently without pouring the funds into the church as insurrance just in case.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Robin Hood »

cyclOps wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:33 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:27 pm
scottja wrote: August 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.
The man who is married has a tithing requirement of $30 while the man who is single has (say his car payment is $200 and auto insurance is $100) has a tithing requirement of $270.
So the more bills I decide to rack up the less tithing I have to pay?
This is where the law of Stewardship comes in.
We are expected to exercise correct stewardship over our needs and wants.
For example a modest home, or a Ford instead of a BMW (but only if you need a car).

Many in the church pay 10% on their gross, and then appear to believe the remaining 90% is theirs to do with as they please. This is not so.
By exercising stewardship we maximize the amount of tithing we pay to the church, while developing other skills necessary to be able to thrive in Zion.

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cyclOps
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by cyclOps »

MMbelieve wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 10:26 am
cyclOps wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 10:15 am
ajax wrote: August 2nd, 2017, 9:00 am Heaven forbid people govern themselves.

We need rules [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]!

We MUST be commanded in all things. Uniformity. Compliancy. That way, we don't have to deal with the annoyance of others doing things differently than ourselves.

"Please, please, tell me what this word means" (hot, interest, etc)
Man should govern himself, but there has to be a standard to which he governs. Whether it's his own or God's, or something else, there is a standard. The problem is trying to govern according to God's standard and not our own or someone else's.
The church leaves it up to the member to decide himself. Like the temple recommend interview, it is up to the member to decide if he is worthy to attend after a series of questions (the standard). There is no series of questions when asked if you paid a full tithe. People just want a standard and it isint given as clearly as we would like. That doesn't mean we need to be governed in all things, it means we want to know the standard so we can be sure to meet it.

But based on how things are done, it doesn't seem that important. But I always thought it was. If its.considered fire insurrance and the windows.of heaven will open to you, it would be nice to know if one is meeting that sufficiently without pouring the funds into the church as insurrance just in case.
I'm not confused on what tithing standard I should follow. I've had the windows of heaven opened upon my family many times by paying tithing so I feel like I'm doing what is expected by God.

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Col. Flagg
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Re: Tithing and fast offerings are so important

Post by Col. Flagg »

cyclOps wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:33 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: August 1st, 2017, 11:27 pm
scottja wrote: August 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm I believe that the man in the basement should consider the free room and utilities as increase and also tithe on the market value of those.
The man who is married has a tithing requirement of $30 while the man who is single has (say his car payment is $200 and auto insurance is $100) has a tithing requirement of $270.
So the more bills I decide to rack up the less tithing I have to pay?
:)) Nope, sorry, doesn't work like that. Do some research into this topic and then return and report.
Last edited by Col. Flagg on August 2nd, 2017, 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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