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Alaris
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Alaris »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 9:13 pm Some people carry guns and knives even just for self defense. From all scriptures I've read it seems more like Jesus would want us to bury our weapons of war or not have weapons that can kill or hurt.
Tell that to Captain Moroni ;)

Or Mormon

Or Mormon's footnote about Captain Moroni
Almar 48:17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

18 Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God.
(Or Ammon)

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Alaris
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Alaris »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 9:26 pm To me it just seems like Jesus wants us to promote peace and turn the other cheek and love our neighbor. Plus I'm not afraid of death, I'm just afraid of the Lord's judgment of my heart and mainly my works.


That's the rule in my humble opinion. There are times when the Lord would have us fight for our lands and our liberty:
Alma 46:12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—

20 Behold, whosoever will maintain this title upon the land, let them come forth in the strength of the Lord, and enter into a covenant that they will maintain their rights, and their religion, that the Lord God may bless them.

24 Yea, let us preserve our liberty as a remnant of Joseph; yea, let us remember the words of Jacob, before his death, for behold, he saw that a part of the remnant of the coat of Joseph was preserved and had not decayed. And he said—Even as this remnant of garment of my son hath been preserved, so shall a remnant of the seed of my son be preserved by the hand of God, and be taken unto himself, while the remainder of the seed of Joseph shall perish, even as the remnant of his garment.

28 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words he went forth, and also sent forth in all the parts of the land where there were dissensions, and gathered together all the people who were desirous to maintain their liberty, to stand against Amalickiah and those who had dissented, who were called Amalickiahites.
The anti nephi lehis maintained a covenant to shed no more blood as a result of their own sins.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by MMbelieve »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 9:26 pm To me it just seems like Jesus wants us to promote peace and turn the other cheek and love our neighbor. Plus I'm not afraid of death, I'm just afraid of the Lord's judgment of my heart and mainly my works.
This is good but once you have a wife and children you will not be afraid to defend them, to the death if needed.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by MMbelieve »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 9:29 pm In his talk "Remember Lots wife" Jeffrey R Holland said to bury your weapons of war and leave them buried.
Was he actually talking about physical guns and swords? I interpreted it as meaning something different. To bury your weapons of war could mean to give up fighting others with anger and resentment and hurtful words and behaviors. To move past hurting others and leave the past in the past and forgive and love.

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David13
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

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Alma 43
46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.


So correct me if I am wrong here. The they were the Nephites, no? And this Lord who had said unto them, that is the same Lord that we know and answer to, no? So, tho' indirect, this is an admonition to us, as well, no? Correct me if I'm wrong here, I certainly have never been, and only may someday in the distant future become, a biblical and Book of Mormon scholar.
But it seems to me we are admonished not to strike the first blow, nor any second, but that we are not to allow ourselves to be victims, no?
In other words, we are to survive. We are told to do so. No?
dc

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David13
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by David13 »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 9:29 pm In his talk "Remember Lots wife" Jeffrey R Holland said to bury your weapons of war and leave them buried.

Yes, indeed, we are to seek peace. Always and everywhere. But then beyond that, and it does go beyond that, well, see my post above.
dc

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Serragon »

John 18:10.

Christ allowed Peter to carry a sword.

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Different
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Different »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 9:29 pm In his talk "Remember Lots wife" Jeffrey R Holland said to bury your weapons of war and leave them buried.

Are you a United States of America citizen ?

If so.... how was this nation created? Through peaceful chess games.......

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mirkwood
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

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Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a b@stard.

Author: Joseph Smith, Source: An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298
Last edited by mirkwood on July 27th, 2017, 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by MMbelieve »

Serragon wrote: July 27th, 2017, 11:18 pm John 18:10.

Christ allowed Peter to carry a sword.
This made me think of the Angel who carried a sword when he came Joseph.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by MMbelieve »

mirkwood wrote: July 27th, 2017, 11:28 pm Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a b@stard.

Author: Joseph Smith, Source: An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298
As a woman I made sure to marry a man who would defend me and our kids. It's pretty much a requirement so that statement is very true. If a man just sat there and watched his family get hurt or killed he would be a coward for sure and not worthy of a wife.

Angel, don't worry there are plenty of ways to stop an attack and defend without killing. But to just lay down is putting the harm of your family on your head.

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Rensai
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

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"The scriptural parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins is a reminder that one can wait too long before he attempts to get his spiritual and temporal house in order. Are we prepared? A man should not only be prepared to protect himself physically, but he should also have on hand sufficient supplies to sustain himself and his family in an emergency." (Conference Report, April 1967, p.61)
In "The Family; A Proclamation to the World" this role of a man was reiterated...

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families."
"Let me say to all of you learn to be true and faithful and instead of laying out your means for fine bonnets and fine shoes and for coffee and tea my advice to you is, if you can [sic] 5 or 10 dollars, go and buy a good blanket, a gun, or a sword. And we want you, ladies, to provide yourselves with weapons, and with all that is necessary and be ready to defend yourselves, for you won't always have your husbands to defend you." (Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses 4:376.)
In the Doctrine and Covenenants 134:11 it reads....

"We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded."
Alma 43:47

47 And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.
Nephi says in 2 Nephi 5:14 “And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us.” Jacob 1:10 tells us further “The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence, and having labored in all his days for their welfare.”
"...We feel to hope for the best, and are determined to prepare for the worst. And we want this to be your motto in common with us, 'that we will never ground our arms untill we give them up by death--' 'Free trade and sailors rights, protection of persons and property, wives and families.' If a mob annoy you, defend yourselves to the very last, and if they fall upon you with a superior force, and if you think you are not able to compete with them, retreat to Nauvoo... act according to the emergency of the case but never give up your arms, but die first...." – Joseph Smith Jr. to his Uncle John, Nauvoo, June 17, 1844. Source: "The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith," compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1984, p. 591 (ISBN: 0-87747-974-7)

"There is one principle which is Eternal, it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their households whenever necessity requires. And no power has a right to forbid it." -- Joseph Smith Jr. to his wife, Emma Smith, Carthage Jail, June 27, 1844. Source: "The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith," compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1984, p. 611 (ISBN: 0-87747-974-7)

"Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] Any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard." -- Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, January 29, 1843. Source: "An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith," edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, p. 298 (ISBN: 0-941214-78)

"Constitution of the U[nited] S[tates] says "Habeus Corpus shall not be denied. Deny me the right to H[abeus] Corpus and I will fight with guns, sword, cannon behind and thunder [afore] till I am used up, like Killkenny Cats." -- Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, June 30, 1843. Source: "An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith," edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, p. 391 (ISBN: 0-941214-78)

"I swear in the name of the Almighty God with uplifted hand the Legislature shall never take away our rights. I'll spill my heart's Blood first." -- Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, June 30, 1843. Source: "An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith," edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, p. 392 (ISBN: 0-941214-78)

Doug
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Doug »

From what I heard, he was pretty good with a scourge.

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mirkwood
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by mirkwood »

Ever seen Band of Brothers? Dick Winters is a lot of us around here.

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Alaris
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Alaris »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 28th, 2017, 8:19 am So every Mormon man should have a weapon?
At least until you reach New Jerusalem:
D&C 45:66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by MMbelieve »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 28th, 2017, 8:19 am So every Mormon man should have a weapon?
No.
Under this idea it makes one think or believe that mormon men are prepared to kill. This is not what it's about.

I would say EVERY man should be willing and capable to protect his wife and children. Some will carry a weapon and some wont.
I also believe that every woman should know some basics of self defense so she is able to protect her children when he is not around.

This is pretty much common sense.

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inho
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by inho »

Jesus:
all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword

Matt 26:52

Serragon
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Serragon »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 28th, 2017, 1:14 pm
MMbelieve wrote: July 28th, 2017, 1:08 pm
CelestialAngel wrote: July 28th, 2017, 8:19 am So every Mormon man should have a weapon?
No.
Under this idea it makes one think or believe that mormon men are prepared to kill. This is not what it's about.

I would say EVERY man should be willing and capable to protect his wife and children. Some will carry a weapon and some wont.
I also believe that every woman should know some basics of self defense so she is able to protect her children when he is not around.

This is pretty much common sense.

What helps is I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Kenpo karate which is open hand self defense. Started at age 7.
Isn't that the equivalent of a weapon?

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Jesef
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Jesef »

.
Last edited by Jesef on July 28th, 2017, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MMbelieve
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by MMbelieve »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 28th, 2017, 1:14 pm
MMbelieve wrote: July 28th, 2017, 1:08 pm
CelestialAngel wrote: July 28th, 2017, 8:19 am So every Mormon man should have a weapon?
No.
Under this idea it makes one think or believe that mormon men are prepared to kill. This is not what it's about.

I would say EVERY man should be willing and capable to protect his wife and children. Some will carry a weapon and some wont.
I also believe that every woman should know some basics of self defense so she is able to protect her children when he is not around.

This is pretty much common sense.

What helps is I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Kenpo karate which is open hand self defense. Started at age 7.
Well there ya go, what are you worried about then?
Your skill is likely all the defense you will need.

Question, should all mormon men be black belt certified? That way we can avoid weapons.

Or....is that skill also considered a "weapon". If not, then the intent or how it's used is what matters most? Then carrying a knife or a gun can have the same level intent or confidance as ones self defensive skills have?

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mirkwood
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by mirkwood »

inho wrote: July 28th, 2017, 2:13 pm Jesus:
all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword

Matt 26:52
Jesus:

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36

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Jesef
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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by Jesef »

That contradiction is a good case of: did Jesus really say that or is the record of what he said an imperfect transmission with errors in it?

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by passionflower »

Joseph Smith defended himself with a gun from the mob in Carthage jail. I have just finished reading this account in the HoftheC, and he shot at least four guys and was most definately shooting to kill.

JS never backed down from a fight that I read of. He didn't go looking for a fight, but he would take on anyone physically and he knew how to use a weapon. He was head of the Nauvoo Legion which was a military organization that he fully intended to use if needed.

The legions of angels that Jesus could call down to protect Him "from dashing His foot against a stone" are not a bunch of nice guys. Check out your OT. They KILL people, lots of them, and they carry swords. At this moment they are chomping at the bit to come down and destroy the earth and cast the wicked down to hell.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by brianj »

inho wrote: July 28th, 2017, 2:13 pm Jesus:
all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword

Matt 26:52
What's your point? We know that physical death isn't the end of anything but mortality. Perishing with the sword, in defense of true principles or innocent victims, is an honorable death.

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Re: Is Jesus against carrying weapons?

Post by brianj »

CelestialAngel wrote: July 27th, 2017, 10:10 pm Either way id rather be killed than face the mental problems I would face if I ever took a life. I made a personal covenant with God that I would never kill. I would never be allowed in the military anyway because of my mental disabilities so I don't worry about fighting in a war.
We are all different. I don't think I would want to endure the mental problems I would have if I didn't act to protect family or others and they were murdered by an attacker I could have stopped.

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