Joseph Smith and Our Relationship with Christ

[drtanner]

The more I study the life of Joseph Smith the more I grow to love him as an individual and love what he was able to accomplish with the Lord's help. Perhaps most important however is what I have learned about developing a personal relationship with the Lord as I study the history of his life and his interactions with others. Some in the church have a hard time learning about his weaknesses but it has emboldened my faith and has made me grateful for the Savior and the work he accomplishes through his children despite shortcomings they may have.

It does bring up some interesting questions about what really may qualify us to gaze into the heavens, be taught by messengers from heaven, receive revelation, part the veil, and ultimately live within all of our spiritual privileges. Did Joseph make mistakes financially? Did he donate everything he personally owned to the poor? Did he get upset with his wife and others at times? Did he like to kid and joke? Did he always follow impressions right when he received them? Was everything he did inspired? Did he....

If we answer these and other questions like them honestly we may come to some life changing realizations about how to develop our own relationship with Christ and receive some of the greatest blessings we could obtain as mortals. So my question is this.... What did qualify Joseph for the things he experienced despite his weakness?

How blessed we are to have his example, his witness, and his life so greatly documented for us to learn from.

[gardener4life]

Well its late at night for a quick answer I will help with one of your questions. I had been bothered by some of the things the antis were saying about blaming Joseph Smith for the Kirtland bank failure. I wanted to get to the heart of the matter so I looked those things up and went into it by detail. I knew that if I did this the spirit would help me to expose the lies that were encountered there. And I wanted to do this because it always came back to the antis using the Kirtland Bank failure to try to overpower the testimony of good with Korihor type of teaching.

The amount of money STOLEN, yes stolen, from the Kirtland bank by several employees not just one was vastly higher than the amount lost by any giving away or other amounts. Further, when I researched this I found that had that amount not been stolen, the Kirtland Bank would have been able to still operate. I found this interesting. It showed by the math that Joseph Smith couldn't be truly blamed for the Kirtland Bank failures.

But antis can be very clever in some of the lies they come up with and how they can come up with some illusions so powerful that if someone isn't rooted in bedrock faith, repentance and love for Jesus that they could deceive many, and lure people astray. When you think about the love for Jesus, and how much he loves us and how much did for us you can't be blinded by these darts of the adversary. And you can feel that love in reading the book of mormon when seeing the many ways he'd saved the Nephites over and over again, even when they didn't always deserve it. it also is wonderful to think about how people can get answers to prayers. Those answers to prayers are the basis for the story of Joseph Smith...that anyone can get answers to prayers if one person can...though its true we won't have such fantastic experiences as he did usually...its so divinely inspired that if 1 person can get an honest answer to their prayer than we can all be in a frenzy to follow christ and help answer each other's prayers with hope of our own being answered soon right after.

One day also I had another insight. i had been trying to understand why anti-christs and anti-mormons...which are really the same thing...why do they try to bash Joseph Smith so much? They also try to come up with clever words on why its a cult when its not. It all comes down to these people also can't handle that someone else can have, does have, or could have more than they do. The theme rebellion comes up. Of course it would. They can't handle that someone else would have their prayers answered first or have more increase than they do. Or their hearts are on priestcrafts, or the world. So they decide to come up with clever ways of bashing Joseph Smith, without realizing they are bashing Jesus too.

Another interesting insight I had one day was that Joseph Smith purposely didn't tell people right away that he was completely innocent in the Kirtland Bank failure partly because he was hoping and trying to get the man who stole the most from the bank to come back. He was so full of the love of Jesus and Heavenly Father that he desperately was even reluctant to name that person as one of the causes if it would help that person repent.

Thus, a lot of blame falsely comes up against Joseph Smith for some of the Saint's early financial distresses....not to mention there were bank failures during that time happening all over the United States. But very few people even know who the guy is who stole the most from the Kirtland Bank. They'd rather blame Joseph Smith, all because of similarities to Laman and Lemuel like blame.

[Robin Hood]

For me, one of the things I love and admire about Joseph was his capacity to forgive. The situation with William W. Phelps is a good example, but there are others.
I think he must have acquired this huge capacity to forgive from his interactions with Christ.

[marc]

So my question is this.... What did qualify Joseph for the things he experienced despite his weakness?

The short answer:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him...

Joseph was a boy who tested the spirits. Unbelief was not part of his vocabulary.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Joseph was not a boy who wavered, neither was he a man who did not receive anything from the Lord. He believed. And he received because he did not waver.

[drtanner]

Thank you for the thoughts and I agree, his ability to forgive and his faith were essential in receiving what he received. Despite Josephs weaknesses he was an agent! Look at what Joseph was willing to DO for the kingdom. The lord has a hard time getting us to visit someone once a month and heaven forbid we invite someone to church or talk about religion at work. One greatest gift we have to live up to our spiritual privledge is the use of our agency.

If we want to maximize our spiritual privileges we need to quit blaming / judging the church our leaders, our history, someone in our ward or family and start doing our part to build the kingdom. Josephs prayer was not to just know what church was true but he wanted to know which to JOIN. Why? He wanted to be right with God and do anything it took to get there. God knew he would act!

God will not steer a parked car. He can't! It's impossible. He will also not give gifts or miracles or divine help to a parked car. When we choose to drive we may crash the car from time to time. Sometime this is by our own negligence and sometimes it is by another driver on the road, and sometimes it is just nature (a storm or clueless animal) but Christ is the ultimate mechanic. He is less concerned about the amount of damage to the car, and infinitely more concerned about getting it moving again. Sometimes when we crash he needs us to go get a part for him. That part may come in the form of forgiving someone or confession or restitution. He wants to fix the car but he needs the part! We determine how quickly we get the car back up in running by making sure we give him all the parts he needs. Joseph crashed from time to time but he was always back on the road driving and he prayed with the intent to get somewhere and he drove fast and furious on the Lord's errand.

I love this clip from Elder Bednar, and feel like it highlights some of these principles that were evident in Joseph life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfsi_ZQkcgk&t=1s

[Arenera]

The Book of Mormon. Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

A4650B2D-972E-450C-BF18-D91C226E45C1-5061-000009E16C41599A.jpeg (14.52 KiB) Viewed 1333 times

[diligently seeking]

The Book of Mormon. Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

A4650B2D-972E-450C-BF18-D91C226E45C1-5061-000009E16C41599A.jpeg

Arenera, do tell please how your love and understanding of Christ through the Book of Mormon is helping you to lift the condemnation or Has Lifted the condemnation upon you.


"Where much is given much is required"


Christ told the scribes and pharisees members of the church in his day that sinners and publicans etc go to heaven before them...

Much was given to the church anciently much was required-- but they saw beyond the mark and as a result we're condemned...


Beyond an academic / "I am an owner through my church membership understanding of the Book of Mormon" ---how do we not treat it lightly so we similarly will not be condemned?


Are there parallels with the ancient church with with warnings and blessings which Can Shed light for us today with our church membership and accessibility to saving resources?

[Arenera]

The Book of Mormon. Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

A4650B2D-972E-450C-BF18-D91C226E45C1-5061-000009E16C41599A.jpeg

Arenera, do tell please how your love and understanding of Christ through the Book of Mormon is helping you to lift the condemnation or Has Lifted the condemnation upon you.


"Where much is given much is required"


Christ told the scribes and pharisees members of the church in his day that sinners and publicans etc go to heaven before them...

Much was given to the church anciently much was required-- but they saw beyond the mark and as a result we're condemned...


Beyond an academic / "I am an owner through my church membership understanding of the Book of Mormon" ---how do we not treat it lightly so we similarly will not be condemned?


Are there parallels with the ancient church with with warnings and blessings which Can Shed light for us today with our church membership and accessibility to saving resources?

What does Christ require? A broken heart and a contrite spirit. I know that as repentance and being humble. That is in 3 N 9.

I'm grateful to Christ that He provided the Book of Mormon in our times. He did that by inspiring/commanding ancient prophets to prepare the plates for us. Nephi started it, each additional person involved took an oath to continue the process of writing and keeping the plates. Mormon did much of the abridging, or selecting what to include on the plates. Moroni finished it up.

I bore testimony once that I was a Nephite. Nephi and the others are my friends. Nephi lived 2,600 years ago, but has touched my life more than can be said. This is one way that I know Christ and that Christ cares for us.

If a person continues to read the Book of Mormon (which was the talk given by President Monson in his conference address) and take time to ponder what is being read, over time will begin to see the higher message contained, which is coming to Christ. From the 1st chapter to the last, it is about coming to Christ. Read, study, ponder Ether 8 for example.

There are several people in the Book of Mormon who were wicked, but were changed and became great disciples of Christ. Like Alma and his son, Alma. I identify somewhat with Amulek.

Read Alma 24, it is deeper than you think. There we meet Anti-Nephi-Lehi, the person. What does he say?

Even this week I understand better parts of the war chapters. Some consider boring, I find them to be incredibly informative on a higher level even though war is going on. Dissidents broke off from the Nephites, Amalickiah and Ammoron are a couple of examples. They caused much bloodshed and problems. Yet Captain Moroni, Lehi, Teancum, Helaman, the Strippling Warriors and their parents where there to fight for the better cause.

The Book of Mormon can take you further than you can even imagine. Keep reading it.

A8852E13-3A3C-4628-819D-19A0637FF528-5061-000009EE112E654F.jpeg (8.21 KiB) Viewed 1308 times

[Finrock]

I think Joseph Smith realized that his greatness/power/capacity did not come as a result of his goodness or his righteousness. I believe Joseph Smith had faith in Jesus Christ and trusted in Him. In other words, I think Joseph Smith understood that God condescends to speak and to interact with us, unworthy creatures. I think many people keep themselves away from God thinking that they are not worthy of His presence and therefore God will have nothing to do with them until they act more righteously, or do more righteous works, or "lengthen their stride", or work harder, or put in more time at Church, or if they just didn't screw up as often as they did, etc.

A broken heart and a contrite spirit is what is needed. God comes to us and blesses us not because we have earned it through our righteousness, but because He loves us and wants to heal us. He truly does. If we don't believe that and get hung up on our false beliefs or unbelief, then we will never feel His presence, feel His love, or feel His guiding hand in our life; not because He is not there by our side, but because we don't accept that He is.

Jesus came to heal the sick and the afflicted. All we, like sheep, have gone astray. None are exempt from folly and error. But, Jesus Christ condescended from His high station to be with us. We just need to cast aside our unbelief and receive Him.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Joseph Smith rarely preached or quoted from the Book of Mormon and with everything going on to restore the kingdom I'm sure he would have liked to have more time to study but regardless he obtained. Why? He understood its "precepts" better than any other human we could possibly look to as an example of how to develop a relationship with Christ? What are those precepts?

When Nephi was commanded to go and get the plates was he trying to earn a blessing? Did his choice to Go and DO qualify him for the blessing of everything he eventually received? So what is the difference? Nephi obtain despite his weakness just like Joseph. There is a principle here that is life changing in terms of our spiritual potential.

[Arenera]

Joseph Smith rarely preached or quoted from the Book of Mormon and with everything going on to restore the kingdom I'm sure he would have liked to have more time to study but regardless he obtained. Why? He understood its "precepts" better than any other human we could possibly look to as an example of how to develop a relationship with Christ? What are those precepts?

When Nephi was commanded to go and get the plates was he trying to earn a blessing? Did his choice to Go and DO qualify him for the blessing of everything he eventually received? So what is the difference? Nephi obtain despite his weakness just like Joseph. There is a principle here that is life changing in terms of our spiritual potential.

Something happened to Nephi before he went and did. See 1n2:16 and verses after.

[drtanner]

Are we going to be asked to sacrifice a son, to kill a man, to translate an ancient record, to cross the ocean, to sell everything we have a give it to the poor, to cast our nets and preach full time, etc in order for us to reach our spiritual potential? Was Joseph asked to fulfill all of these "commandments?" So what are the principles in how he obtained? Are we missing the precepts from one the greatest and most accessible examples we have to learn them from?

[Doug]

We must also consider the relationship between The Father, The Son, and Joseph Smith. I think John Taylor told us what that relationship is in D&C 135 "3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it."
So who is he, Joseph Smith, that he is second to Jesis Christ?

[marc]

We must also consider the relationship between The Father, The Son, and Joseph Smith. I think John Taylor told us what that relationship is in D&C 135 "3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it."
So who is he, Joseph Smith, that he is second to Jesis Christ?

This is arguably an opinion. Enoch, for example, turned rivers from their courses, set at defiance the armies of nations, walked with the Lord 365 years and took a city of translated people with him to heaven. Joseph, though he did much good (and I love him), did not succeed in the efforts to redeem Zion as Enoch did. Neither Enoch's nor Joseph's works, however, vindicate any of us who remain unredeemed.

[Doug]

Joseph Smith has restored and taught, through the Book of Mormon and through Brigham Young, the true nature of Jesus Christ. He has restored the knowledge of who The Father really is. He has restored knowledge of Christ's premortal role and works. He has restored the knowledge of how The Atonment enables Christ to overcome both spiritual and physical death. He has restored the knowledge of how the Family of Gods use the priesthood to extend their family to include each of us if we so chose. And many more mysteries have been restored and made available to us in his and his students writtings if we care to look.

[Doug]

This is arguably an opinion. Enoch, for example, turned rivers from their courses, set at defiance the armies of nations, walked with the Lord 365 years and took a city of translated people with him to heaven. Joseph, though he did much good (and I love him), did not succeed in the efforts to redeem Zion as Enoch did. Neither Enoch's nor Joseph's works, however, vindicate any of us who remain unredeemed.

I wouldn't argue with President Taylor, specially in light of the few times when Joseph himself tried to tell the brothern who he was. To quote just one, "Would that I could tell you what I know, would that I could tell you who I am, there are men in this room who would seek my life claiming blasphemy" Joseph Smith in the Kirkland temple.

Oh, btw, he also happens to , still, hold the keys to the dispensation of the fullness of time - the greatest of all the Telestial Dispensations. (The millenium will be a Terestial Dispensation, the keys of which will be held by Christ)

[diligently seeking]

Joseph Smith rarely preached or quoted from the Book of Mormon and with everything going on to restore the kingdom I'm sure he would have liked to have more time to study but regardless he obtained. Why? He understood its "precepts" better than any other human we could possibly look to as an example of how to develop a relationship with Christ? What are those precepts?

When Nephi was commanded to go and get the plates was he trying to earn a blessing? Did his choice to Go and DO qualify him for the blessing of everything he eventually received? So what is the difference? Nephi obtain despite his weakness just like Joseph. There is a principle here that is life changing in terms of our spiritual potential.

Something happened to Nephi before he went and did. See 1n2:16 and verses after.

No matter what we DO how we DO it or how much of it we DO--- we still are "unprofitable servants."

Being sanctified by the blood of the lamb and knowing of his goodness / born of God) and mysteries / calling and election --second comforter Etc) even amongst afflictions of life ( look no further than the first verse in the Book of Mormon) is our only hope for our desired eternal reward. See 1nephi 10 and Alma 12 d&c 88 d&c 76) Being steadfast and immovable and abounding in good works comes all the more naturally once we have become Christ's sons and daughters (see mosiah 5) having a condition of acknowledging our great dependence and our great unworthiness (broken heart and contrite spirit) upon and before God-- the scriptures tell / shows us again and again and again opens the floodgates for this mighty change of heart etc.
We realize that we are even below the dust of the Earth (as it pertains to OUR ability to earn our Eternal rewared) we rejoice-- rather, in our changed condition knowing that through the grace merits and mercy of Jesus all things are possible. The Book of Mormon again and again and again from start to finish makes it very clear that it is not the clear and expounded upon Doctrine though it is beautifully prevalent within its pages-- it is not the significance of membership of the sanctioned Church during the times of Book of Mormon people's existence--it was not the power and authority of the Great Oracles in the Book of Mormon that allowed for them to live after the manner of happiness(though all those were very helpful). No, it was nothing short of the saving Authority and efficacy of Christ redeeming powers that brought about the unflinching confidence and the amazing determination to move forward with sustaining Joy and peace and happiness and many life-enhancing gifts of the Spirit in their lives... "The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature." ETB

The power and specialness of the Christ centered message in the Book of Mormon is most incredible---- IF we choose to have eyes that see- ears that hear- and a heart that understands...

[onefour1]

I believe that Joseph Smith was one of the great ones in the pre-mortal existence. I believe he was called before the foundation of this earth to be a great prophet of the latter days. I believe that because of this and the situation he was placed in on this earth, his mind was engrossed in the idea of humbling himself and calling upon God after reading James 1:5. From this single act of kneeling before God and asking in faith, millions now have the true gospel of Jesus Christ and can be saved into the kingdom of heaven. Hail to the prophet!

[drtanner]

At the end of the day we all come up wanting and are unprofitable servants regardless of what we DO, including Jospeh Smith but he did QUALIFY for his experiences despite his weakness. How? His history holds the answers.

A broken heart and contrite spirit alone have not been enough to qualify many for the privleidges the father has readily available but Jospeh and others have obtained.

[diligently seeking]

At the end of the day we all come up wanting and are unprofitable servants regardless of what we DO, including Jospeh Smith but he did QUALIFY for his experiences despite his weakness. How? His history holds the answers.

A broken heart and contrite spirit alone have not been enough to qualify many for the privleidges the father has readily available but Jospeh and others have obtained.

Drtanner, surely you're not stating that God is respecter of persons? If he states promises / blessings will be gained through certain lived behavior / broken heart and contrite spirit etc he means to fulfill them. Our end of *qualifying* for his promised blessings do not come 40% of time or 70% of the time but a one hundred percent of the time they are granted. Laman and Lemuel murmured and complained as we learn in the scriptures because "they would not know God's dealings for them." It is very obvious in the scriptures that they had many moments of contrition where they wanted to be on the path God would have them be. They like so many however would not exercise their faith by going through the trial of their faith to receive the desired Witness / blessings. they disputed and received not. To dispute equals unbelief yes? when we understand God's WORD with the intention that they're meant to be understood and received by us we then move forward with greater faith and readily repent of our unbelief and as a result eventually in his time frame as we are firm and steadfast and through the ultimate Grace of Jesus even and especially amongst our afflictions --- we receive.

[Finrock]

I believe that Joseph Smith was one of the great ones in the pre-mortal existence. I believe he was called before the foundation of this earth to be a great prophet of the latter days. I believe that because of this and the situation he was placed in on this earth, his mind was engrossed in the idea of humbling himself and calling upon God after reading James 1:5. From this single act of kneeling before God and asking in faith, millions now have the true gospel of Jesus Christ and can be saved into the kingdom of heaven. Hail to the prophet!

All who accepted the Father's great plan of Happiness in the pre-mortal world are one of the noble and great ones. All have been given various gifts and talents sufficient to receive all that there is to receive. All have equal opportunity to obtain all that God is. In other words, we are all spirits of God and if we allow it we can be made holy, by presenting as a sacrifice a broken heart and a contrite spirit. It is the only sacrifice that is acceptable and it is the means by which we obtain every other blessing there is to receive.

God is not a respecter of persons. He does not esteem one flesh above another flesh. The atonement of Jesus Christ was done because each soul is a precious and an integral part of the whole, which makes up God.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

God is no respecter of persons. I can't think of anything Heavenly Father would want more than for a son or daughter to live up to there spiritual potential and privilege.

[onefour1]

Although God is no respecter of persons, we, through our free will, can choose to be obedient and receive blessings. Just as in this world, we had free will to choose in the pre-mortal existence. Some were more faithful than others. Christ was the most faithful of us all. Many chose to rebel in the very presence of the Father and sided with Satan to overcome God's kingdom. All those who did not rebel were afforded the opportunity to come to this earth and work out their salvation is this second estate. However, those who were among God's most faithful, were called and chosen before the foundation of this earth to become great leaders in God's kingdom here upon the earth. Many of us may have also been among these great spirits but God knew those who were most faithful to him and made them his leaders.

Abraham 3:22-28
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.


Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Does God's blessing of the faithful in the pre-mortal world of spirits mean that He is a respecter of persons? No. For with our free will, we all have had the equal chance of choosing good over evil. Just as God is not a respecter of persons in this life, and blesses those who choose, of their own free will, to follow after him, so it was in the pre-existence. Greatness in this life can still be achieved even if your performance in the pre-mortal existence was not as high as others. We simply need to have that broken heart and contrite spirit that has been spoken of and a desire and willingness to follow after our Lord and Savior.

[drtanner]

When I look at Jospehs life I see a broken heart and contrite spirit as the prerequisite but other crucial attributes and principles that qualified him for all he received and the same opportunity for all of us to live up to what is expected of us.

[MMbelieve]

God is no respector of persons but we can see that he has chosen certain people to do things that others have not and will not do. Not everyone will be a prophet, only few have been ordained to that position.

He is no respector in that he requires the same thing of us and gives no free passes. But there certainly are special people who do special things when most are just ordinary souls.