Deleted

[mcusick]

God sanctioned the brazen serpent and cherubim in the holy of holies, but the golden calf was a central event of the provocation in the wilderness.

[brianj]

In the True to the Faith manual, regarding Exodus 20:4, the church states: "In this commandment, the Lord condemns the worship of idols."
https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the- ... s?lang=eng

I have seen many other sources claiming that this commandment specifically refers to objects made for worship as opposed to pieces of art intended to inspire divine desires within us.

When I acquired a 3D printer one of the first things I printed was a Christus statue.

[David13]

I am no big fan of the Christus statue. I don't think it's the type of thing we should do. But I guess it's their idea of an 'outreach'.
What I really don't like is the "pictures" of Jesus in the meeting houses, where he appears as a 1960s long haired bearded hippie, the type who goes around with a whiny voice saying, "that's cool, man", :whatever turns you on", and goes around giving out "spare change, man".
I don't think that's a true image of Jesus at all.
I think we should "make up" no image of Jesus or God at all. That their image is sacred, and they would appear in different ways to different people.
I think it's just something we shouldn't be meddling with.
I like the idea of no crosses. I think that's a step in the right direction.
dc

[inho]

The Ten Commandments seem to make a distinction between making graven images and worshipping them, see Ex. 20:4-5 or Mosiah 13:12-13:

Mosiah 13

12 And now, ye remember that I said unto you: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of things which are in heaven above, or which are in the earth beneath, or which are in the water under the earth.

13 And again: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me;

How should we understand the first part? I've understood that Islamic art likes ornaments, because their interpretation was that making pictures of humans wasn't allowed (modern Muslims interpret it more loosely). We don't see it that way, our temples and meeting houses have art that portrays both earthly and divine beings.


_____________________________
EDIT: corrected the link

[Robin Hood]

I felt this deserves it's own thread. Do Mormons perform a type of idolatry with statues of Mormon figures and artwork? The 2nd commandment says no graven image. Do statues of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young violate this commandment? How about the Christus statue? What is true idolatry and what is a true graven image? Sports teams build statues of great players outside their arenas but former Houston Rocket and Muslim Hakeem Olajuwon denied a statue being built of him because of his belief of no graven images. But do Mormons have idols and symbolic golden calfs they are worshipping like a mansion or a Ferrari or a drug habit like heroin? I'm interested in your views on Mormons doing this and how or why or why not because Robin Hood brought up some interesting points. I have a statue of Jesus holding a lamb on my dresser.

I spoke in my ward recently about idolatry because, like President Kimball said in 1976, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people.
Our choice of gods to place before the Most High God these days is almost innumerable. Cars, houses, clothes, Facebook, sport, food, relationships, TV.... the list goes on.

But the second commandment is interesting. The first commandment deals with general idolatry, but the second gets quite specific.
No graven images means, in my view, no graven images. It doesn't provide an exemption for the Christus statue, or for statues of the original Twelve apostles, as recently installed at the new Rome temple facility, or for Joseph Smith. Nor does it permit busts of all the church presidents since the restoration to have on display at the Conference Centre.

Personally, I think the graven image part of commandment number two is quite easy to understand. However, the prohibition of making a "likeness" of anything is more difficult to understand and incorporate in our lives.

Photographs, films and TV shows immediately spring to mind. They had no cameras in Moses' day.
As I typed that last sentence a thought came strongly to my mind. If we obeyed this commandment to the letter, there would be no pornography problem. Maybe God knew what he was talking about after all.
Just a thought.

[shadow]

If we obeyed this commandment to the letter, there would be no pornography problem. Maybe God knew what he was talking about after all.
Just a thought.

Or if we obeyed a few of the other commandments (love God, love your neighbor, don't covet and that chastity one) there would also be no pornography problem.

[mcusick]

I felt this deserves it's own thread. Do Mormons perform a type of idolatry with statues of Mormon figures and artwork? The 2nd commandment says no graven image. Do statues of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young violate this commandment? How about the Christus statue? What is true idolatry and what is a true graven image? Sports teams build statues of great players outside their arenas but former Houston Rocket and Muslim Hakeem Olajuwon denied a statue being built of him because of his belief of no graven images. But do Mormons have idols and symbolic golden calfs they are worshipping like a mansion or a Ferrari or a drug habit like heroin? I'm interested in your views on Mormons doing this and how or why or why not because Robin Hood brought up some interesting points. I have a statue of Jesus holding a lamb on my dresser.

I spoke in my ward recently about idolatry because, like President Kimball said in 1976, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people.
Our choice of gods to place before the Most High God these days is almost innumerable. Cars, houses, clothes, Facebook, sport, food, relationships, TV.... the list goes on.

But the second commandment is interesting. The first commandment deals with general idolatry, but the second gets quite specific.
No graven images means, in my view, no graven images. It doesn't provide an exemption for the Christus statue, or for statues of the original Twelve apostles, as recently installed at the new Rome temple facility, or for Joseph Smith. Nor does it permit busts of all the church presidents since the restoration to have on display at the Conference Centre.

Personally, I think the graven image part of commandment number two is quite easy to understand. However, the prohibition of making a "likeness" of anything is more difficult to understand and incorporate in our lives.

Photographs, films and TV shows immediately spring to mind. They had no cameras in Moses' day.
As I typed that last sentence a thought came strongly to my mind. If we obeyed this commandment to the letter, there would be no pornography problem. Maybe God knew what he was talking about after all.
Just a thought.

Said the person with the likeness of a man as his avatar on his lds freedom forum account. Walk the walk! :p

[Arenera]

How about lights?

23166617-D6EF-4B22-AA9F-A03B642AE6BC-4849-00000997C791334B.jpeg (78.95 KiB) Viewed 955 times

[kittycat51]

So the church leadership as a whole should be condemned and should be at fault because they allow pictures in temples, meetinghouses, statues on temple square portraits of apostles and busts of all the prophets in the conference center? I believe the "no graven image thing" but some of this is being a bit nit picky and going to far in supposing people's intentions. Those that are most reasonable in the church know not to cross that line, yes there will be some. But remember we live in an imperfect world.

[Robin Hood]

Everyone is making some good points.
I think this is a very complicated subject. Far more difficult to resolve than I had first thought.
Mcusick, good shout. Maybe I should ditch the avatar.
One of the reasons I have started to look at this issue is that I have recently started reading Avraham Gileadi's "Last Days" again. It gave me pause for thought.

[Arenera]

So the church leadership as a whole should be condemned and should be at fault because they allow pictures in temples, meetinghouses, statues on temple square portraits of apostles and busts of all the prophets in the conference center? I believe the "no graven image thing" but some of this is being a bit nit picky and going to far in supposing people's intentions. Those that are most reasonable in the church know not to cross that line, yes there will be some. But remember we live in an imperfect world.

And remember, you can only take 613 steps on the sabbath, otherwise you might get nixooed.

[oneClimbs]

I felt this deserves it's own thread. Do Mormons perform a type of idolatry with statues of Mormon figures and artwork? The 2nd commandment says no graven image. Do statues of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young violate this commandment? How about the Christus statue? What is true idolatry and what is a true graven image? Sports teams build statues of great players outside their arenas but former Houston Rocket and Muslim Hakeem Olajuwon denied a statue being built of him because of his belief of no graven images. But do Mormons have idols and symbolic golden calfs they are worshipping like a mansion or a Ferrari or a drug habit like heroin? I'm interested in your views on Mormons doing this and how or why or why not because Robin Hood brought up some interesting points. I have a statue of Jesus holding a lamb on my dresser.

We've covered this before in previous threads. I remember one about a year ago or so, but there's no harm in revisiting subjects after a time. So what is important to note here is the difference between art and works that have been created specifically as an object of worship. Noah Webster defined idol as: "An image, form or representation, usually of a man or other animal, consecrated as an object of worship;" An idol is consecrated to be a replacement for God this is why it is the second commandment, the first being that we shall "have no other Gods" before him.

Professionally, I am a designer, I design websites, apps, etc. I'm also an illustrator and I've done sculpture and animation. I've always loved to sketch and try to capture the likeness of things around me along with creating my own things out of my imagination. For me it is a form of discovery and meditation. Art is the creation of beauty and we are creators. When we create beautiful things, we glorify God and we also tell stories. Just like a poet or writer can capture and teach principles, much like Jesus did with his parables, the sculptor, painter, musician, etc. can capture an essence of love, companionship, dedication, sacrifice, etc. through their art.

When a person uses these skills for perverse purposes such as pornography or idolatry then you have something else entirely.

Not all art will jive with all people. Maybe just the artist themselves will appreciate what they create and thats fine. Anything can be used for good or evil in this world, it just depends on what our intentions are and what we do with things. The Israelites could have pulled the top off the ark of the covenant to begin worshipping the cherubim on the lid if they wanted to. Likewise, we don't worship the Moroni on the steeple of the temple, instead, it is a sign that God has initiated the process of fulfilling his covenant with the house of Israel and that building is the vehicle for which he will accomplish that work.

Statues of Joseph Smith or Jesus, I dunno. If they are being used to tell a story or signify individuals of importance associated with our community I don't see that big of an issue with it any more than a historical marker talking about a person important to our history. Either way, it is merely an identifier of an individual or an event that they were a part of that helped form what we have today. Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Arenera]

Paul and Babe...

AF87C585-5999-4DCF-89E5-C3532E090760-4849-000009BAD3D68B1C.jpeg (780.26 KiB) Viewed 876 times

[JK4Woods]

You're all straining at gnats.....

Think of Buddha statues, Indian graven images, south american catholic church statues,etc.

Those are images which are worshiped, prayed too, with many types of oblations and obeisance directed to the statue or image in discussion.

As soon as we church members are promised benefits from leaving flowers and coins at the feet of the Christus statue , then you'll know what is idolatry.

[mcusick]

Everyone is making some good points.
I think this is a very complicated subject. Far more difficult to resolve than I had first thought.
Mcusick, good shout. Maybe I should ditch the avatar.
One of the reasons I have started to look at this issue is that I have recently started reading Avraham Gileadi's "Last Days" again. It gave me pause for thought.

I think the fact that someone is exploring these issues and contemplating them is something to be celebrated. I thought a lot about it a couple years ago and considered that maybe an Islamic-like adherence to the commandment was best.

My answer came as I considered the brazen serpent. It was commanded by God and served a purpose. Later in Israel's history, it was converted to an object of worship (2 Kings 18:4). How the object was used was the concern.

I don't mind how people interpret the commandment as long as they aren't overly dogmatic about it. My solution to the problem may be incorrect, but I tried to use multiple scriptures in the formation of my answer.

[larsenb]

I am no big fan of the Christus statue. I don't think it's the type of thing we should do. But I guess it's their idea of an 'outreach'.
What I really don't like is the "pictures" of Jesus in the meeting houses, where he appears as a 1960s long haired bearded hippie, the type who goes around with a whiny voice saying, "that's cool, man", :whatever turns you on", and goes around giving out "spare change, man".
I don't think that's a true image of Jesus at all.
I think we should "make up" no image of Jesus or God at all. That their image is sacred, and they would appear in different ways to different people.
I think it's just something we shouldn't be meddling with.
I like the idea of no crosses. I think that's a step in the right direction.
dc

I actually feel uncomfortable going into the SL Temple visitors center and being confronted by the gigantic Christus statue. To me it smacks of going into the Parthenon and seeing the statue of Athena. I get the sense that in the case of the Christus, there is a thing line between it being regarded just a statue and it actually being imbued with the essence and Spirit of Christ. Too much awe seem to be afforded this statue, which should be regarded as just a work of art, not a center piece designed to overwhelm.

[oneClimbs]

I see white people with little Buddha statues all the time because I'm into yoga and meditation people see the Buddha statue they sell in Asian and yoga stores in the mall as a reminder of universal love and peace. Would it be wrong for a Mormon to have a little Buddha statue as a decorative piece?

Buddha is not a god, he is an individual who found a path to enlightenment so he is celebrated for his teachings to that end. He is more of a prophet in a sense and a symbol of what is possible for man to achieve. True, he is a Christ-like figure in that sense, the "prototype of a 'saved man'" but he is not a god or savior as Christ was.

I suppose it depends on what Buddha symbolizes to you. He taught some good things, many of which are true principles, as did Plato, so I suppose in a sense it wouldn't be any different if you had a little statue of him or Plato because you respected their teachings. I don't see how it would be different than having a book on your shelf with their writings in it. A visual symbol could remind you the same way seeing the book on your shelf could.

Symbols are very personal. They can legitimately mean totally opposite things to different people, that's their value though. That's also the value of having an alphabet, you can say just about anything by arranging 26 symbols.

[oneClimbs]

I am no big fan of the Christus statue. I don't think it's the type of thing we should do. But I guess it's their idea of an 'outreach'.
What I really don't like is the "pictures" of Jesus in the meeting houses, where he appears as a 1960s long haired bearded hippie, the type who goes around with a whiny voice saying, "that's cool, man", :whatever turns you on", and goes around giving out "spare change, man".
I don't think that's a true image of Jesus at all.
I think we should "make up" no image of Jesus or God at all. That their image is sacred, and they would appear in different ways to different people.
I think it's just something we shouldn't be meddling with.
I like the idea of no crosses. I think that's a step in the right direction.
dc

I actually feel uncomfortable going into the SL Temple visitors center and being confronted by the gigantic Christus statue. To me it smacks of going into the Parthenon and seeing the statue of Athena. I get the sense that in the case of the Christus, there is a thing line between it being regarded just a statue and it actually being imbued with the essence and Spirit of Christ. Too much awe seem to be afforded this statue, which should be regarded as just a work of art, not a center piece designed to overwhelm.

If you treat it as art, then it is art, if you worship it, it is an idol, if you disregard it, then life goes on. If people go there and think, "Huh, these people seem to make a big deal about Jesus, who'd a though?" Then perhaps it does some good. In a way it fits with the theme of temples, which are an immersive way to experience scripture and sacred teachings. I think art helps facilitate that purpose if done in the right way.