Real Author of the Lectures on Faith

[Arenera]

I took the time to read Reynolds article.

To answer some of your questions:

(Page 13) The History of the Church appears to have a few helpful entries. But since they were interpolated by later secretaries, not drawn from original records like the Prophet's journals, they cannot be used to establish the Prophet's authorship of the Lectures. furthermore, only one appears to link Joseph Smith directly to the content of the Lectures: "During the month of January [1835], I was engaged in the school of the Elders, and in preparing the lectures on theology for publication in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, which the committee appointed last September were now compiling."

Such a statement falls short of constituting acceptable historical evidence that Joseph was responsible for their content or method. Willard Richards inserted the quotation above into the record eight years after the fact; (page 14)

His original diaries and journals, which for some periods provided most of the source material from which the History of the Church was later compiled, have a fifteen-month gap which spans the period in which the lectures were delivered and prepared for publication. (Page 15)

Also:

Of the four members of the First Presidency (who also constituted this committee), only Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon were present for the August 17, 1835, assembly. The minutes record the absence of the other two members of the First Presidency - Joseph Smith and Frederick G. Williams. None of the twelve apostles was present either. (Page 15)

Also:

Oliver Cowdery had included the statement on marriage in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants despite Joseph's repeated requests that it not be included. (Page 18)

Also:

The fact that Joseph Smith's printed name leads the list of signatories to the predatory letter prepared six months earlier for that volume has led most readers to conclude that he at least endorsed the Lectures...

Given the historical record, it is perfectly possible that Joseph's role was limited to the preparation of his own revelations, which constituted the bulk of that volume. (Page 19)

So, Sidney Rigdon wrote the Lectures on Faith. Joseph Smith did not endorse the Lectures on Faith.

This is a blow to anti mormons and break off sects.

It is a worthwhile read!

[Jesef]

I'm quite literally the opposite of a fan of the LoF's, having seen many people, firsthand, use (or misuse, as you please) them as the pretext and justification for their spiritually fanatical "sacrifices." Lectures 6 & 7 seem like pure spiritual extremism to me.

I am curious, however, how the case you've made, Arenera, can hold water in terms of their being included in every edition of the D&C published during Joseph Smith's lifetime - does that not constitute a pretty obvious endorsement by him? If not, please clarify.

[Serragon]

Perhaps I am alone in doing this, but I tend to not look at all scripture as being equal.

I give most weight and heed to the actions and sayings of the Lord, either in person or through His prophets. There is no filter here except that it is recorded or translated correctly.

I then give heed to the writings and sayings of the prophets or those authorized by the Lord to teach, but that are not directly from the Lord. Spiritual sayings that are passed through the filter of individual saying them. This tends to be most of recorded scripture.

Finally, teachings and sayings of other people who claim to be under the influence of the Spirit or things that are clearly administrative or of their time for a specific people. These can be uplifting and contain truth but are most often only beneficial indirectly.

I love the Lectures on Faith, but I don't believe they are equal to the recorded revelations from the Lord in the current D&C.

[marc]

I'm quite literally the opposite of a fan of the LoF's, having seen many people, firsthand, use (or misuse, as you please) them as the pretext and justification for their spiritually fanatical "sacrifices." Lectures 6 & 7 seem like pure spiritual extremism to me.

Jesef, perhaps I am what you would term a "spiritual extremist." I have now spent the last four or five years studying and investigating the LoF and I have concluded based on personal experiences that they sum up the point and purpose of the Book of Mormon as summarized by Moroni in the book of Ether, which records the bro of Jared's spiritual extremism and fanatical sacrifices:

Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Until one parts the veil as Enoch, Moses, the brother of Jared, and others, one is kept from “remembering” or “knowing” the covenant because of unbelief. This is precisely what he LoF addresses in defining the "moving cause of all action." It is this unbelief, which keeps one:

1. In an awful state of wickedness
2. Hardness of heart
3. blindness of mind

Moroni specifically addresses both the gentiles and the covenant people today in the passage I quoted. This exempts nobody. I don't know if you believe the Book of Mormon or if you believe Moroni's words. But I have only one question:

How can anyone who believes the Book of Mormon not believe what it says to do? It was, after all, written by spiritual extremists. Or in other words:

LoF 2:55 Let us here observe, that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge, respecting his character and glory, will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until like Enoch the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God, and power with him to behold him face to face.

Question 146: How do men obtain a knowledge of the glory of God, his perfections and attributes?
By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly, strengthening their faith in him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they obtain a manifestation of God to themselves.

By devoting themselves to his service, through prayer and supplication incessantly...it does sound like spiritual extremism. The bro of Jared did precisely this and was exceedingly blessed:

Ether 1:43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

[diligently seeking]

I'm quite literally the opposite of a fan of the LoF's, having seen many people, firsthand, use (or misuse, as you please) them as the pretext and justification for their spiritually fanatical "sacrifices." Lectures 6 & 7 seem like pure spiritual extremism to me.

I am curious, however, how the case you've made, Arenera, can hold water in terms of their being included in every edition of the D&C published during Joseph Smith's lifetime - does that not constitute a pretty obvious endorsement by him? If not, please clarify.

“Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.” Truman G. Madsen, On How We Know, BYU Devotional Address, Sept. 20, 1994

[diligently seeking]

The book of Mormon shows the effective pattern of the what--- and how--- and the why of spiritually ascending again and again. To miss the mark on the significance of WHAT spiritually ascending means and HOW one should ascend to WHY ONE should ascend spiritually is to minimize the attempt... Enos, teaches / demonstrates clearly through these words the pure motive of the heart and effort one first needs to bring forth to ascend spiritually :

Enos:

1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it
2 And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins.
3 Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.
4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.
5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.
6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith(belief) in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

When we are made whole through the atonement of Christ / born of God and learn our standing before God--- moving forward to further spiritually ascend is a natural process. Opposition is better compartmentalized and navigated when we move forward for much more than academic reasons. The opposite of moving forward clinging to the revletory iron rod is to be lead to mists of darkness or to stay back and remained pacified contented thinking all is well. Moving forward always with a heart which is soft and pliable and willing is the goal the aim the objective of this second estate condition.

Alma 12:

And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.


His WORD the greater portion of it through believing in Christ and moving forward in belief in obtaining the mysteries of God and eventually kneeling before his throne in this life is a safe guard to our mortal soujorn if we move forward as we should:

Alma 32:

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.


2 nephi 4:

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.
29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.
30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?
32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!
33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

[investigator]

Joseph Smith was THE prophet who was conducting THE School of the prophets. He was teaching the School of the Prophets utilizing those doctrines taught in THE lectures on faith. His endorsement of those Lectures has gone out to all the world with his name affixed to that endorsement for all the world to see. To blindly state that he did not endorse those lectures is unbelief and will damn you.

In September of 1833, while Joseph was working on the lectures, he wrote a letter to his Uncle Silas, espousing those same doctrines taught in THE Lectures on faith. Here is a copy of that letter from the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Enjoy

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... le%20silas

Kirtland Mills Ohio sept 26 1833

Respected Uncle Silas

It is with feelings of deep interest for the well fare of mankind which fills my mind on the reflection that all were formed by the hand of him who will call the same to give an impartial account of all their works on that great day to which you and myself in common with them are bound, that I take up my pen and seat myself in an attitude to address a few though imperfect lines to you for your perusal.

I have no doubt but that you will agree with me that men will be held accountable for the things which they have and not for the things they have not or that all the light and intell igence communicated to them from their benifficen [beneficent] creator wh ether it is much or little by the same they in justice will be judged, and that they are required to yield obedience and improve upon that and that only which is given for man is not to live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds [p. 228]

out of the mouth of God

Seeing that the Lord has never given the world to unders tand by anything heretofore revealed that he had ceased forever to speak to his creatures when saught unto in a proper manner why should it be thought a thing incredible that he should be pleased to speak again in these last days for their salvation Perhaps you may be surprized at this assertion that I should say for the salvation of his creatures in these last days since we have already in our possesion a vast volume of his word which he has previously given But you will admit that the word spoken to Noah was not suff icent for Abraham or it was not required of Abraham to leave the land of his nativity and seek an Inheritance in a strange land Country upon the word spoken to Noah but for himself he obtain ed promises at the hand of the Lord and walked in that perf ection that he was called the friend of God Isaac the promi sed seed was not required to rest his hope upon the promises made to his father Abraham but was priviledged with the assu rance of his approbation in the sight of Heaven by the direct voice of the Lord to him If one man can live upon the revelat ions given to another might not I with propriety ask why the n ecessity then of the Lord speaking to Isaac as he did as is record ed in the 26 chapter of Genesis for the Lord there repeats or rath er promises again to perform the oath which he had previously sworn unto Abraham and why this repet[it]ion to Isaac Why was not the first promise as sure for Isaac as it was for Abraham. Was not Isaac Abraham’s son And could he not place implicit confidence in the word of his father as being a man of God.

Perhaps you may say that he was a very peculiar man and different from men in these last days consequently the Lord favored him with blessings peculiar and different as he was different from men in this age I admit that he was a peculiar man and was not only peculiarly blessed but greatly bless ed. But all the peculiarity that I can discover in the [p. 229]

man or all the difference between him and men in this age is that he was more holy and more perfect before God and came to him with a purer heart and more faith than men in this day.

The same might be said on the subject of Jacobs history Why was it that the Lord spake to him concerning the same prom ise after he had made it once to Abraham and renewed it to Isaac why could not Jacob rest contented upon the word spoken to his fathers When the time of the promise drew nigh for the deliverance of the children of Israel from the land of Egypt why was it necessary that the Lord should begin to speak to them The promise or word to Abraham was that his seed should serve in bondage and be afflicted four hun dred years and after that they should come out with great substance Why did they not rely upon this promise and when they had remained in Egypt in bondage four hundred [years] come out without waiting for further revelation but act entirely upon the promise given to Abraham that they should come out.

Paul said to his Hebrew brethren that God b[e]ing more abu ndantly willing to show unto the heirs of his promises the immu tability of his council [“]confirmed it by an oath.” He also exhorts them who throug[h] faith and patience inherit the pro mises.

[“]Notwithstanding we (said Paul) have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us which hope we have as an an chor of the soul both sure and steadfast and which entereth into that within the vail.” Yet he was careful to press upon them the necessity of continuing on untill they as well as those who inherited the promises might have the assurance of their salvat ion confirmed to them by an oath from the mouth of him who cannot could not lie for that seemed to be the example an ciently and Paul holds it out to his brethren as an object atta inable in his day and why not[?] I admit that by reading [p. 230]

the scriptures of truth saints in the days of Paul could learn beyond the power of contradiction that Abraham Isaac and Jacob had the promise of eternal life confirmed to them by an oath of the Lord but that promise or oath was no assurance to them of their salvation but they could by walking in the footsteps <and> continuing in the faith of their fathers obtain for themselves an oath for confirmation that they were meet to be partake[r]s of the inheri tance with the saints in light.

If the saints in the days of the Apostles were priviledged to take the saints for example and lay hold of the same promises and attain to the same exhalted priviledges of knowing that their names were writen in the Lambs book of life and that they were sealed there as a perpetual memorial before the face of the most high will not the same faithfulness the same pur ity of heart and the same faith bring the same assurance of eternal life and that in the same manner to the children of men now in this age of the world[?]

I have no doubt but that the holy prophets and apostles and saints in ancient days were saved in the Kingdom of God. Neither do I doubt but that they held converse and com munion with them while in the flesh as Paul said to the cori nthian brethren that the Lord Jesus showed himself to above 500 saints at one time after his resuretion [resurrection]. Job said that he knew that his Redeemer lived and that he should see him in the flesh in the latter days. I may believe that Enoch wa lked with God <and by faith was translated. And I may [believe] that Noah was a perfect man in his generation & also walked with God.> I may believe that Abraham communed with God and conversed with angels. I may believe that Isaac obtained a renewal of the covenant made to Abraham by the direct voice of the Lord. I may believe that Jacob conversed with holy angels and heard the word of his Maker. that he wrestled with the angel until he prevailed and obtained a blessing I may believe that Elijah was taken to Heaven in a chariot of fire with fiery horses I may believe that the [p. 231]

saints saw the Lord and conversed with him face to face aft er his resurection I may believe that the Hebrew Church came to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God the Heaven ly Jerusalem and to an inumerable company of angels. I may believe that they looked into Eternity and saw the Judge of all, and Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant; but will all this purchase an assurance for me, or waft me to the regions of Eternal day with my garments spotless, pure, and white? Or, must I not rather obtain for myself, by my own faith and dilligence, in keeping the commandments of the Lord, an assurance of salvation for myself And have I not an equal priviledge with the ancient saints? and will not the Lord hear my prayers, and listen to my cries, as soon [as] he ever did to their’s if I come to him in the manner they did or is he a respecter of persons?

I must now close this subject for the want of time; and I may say with propriety at the begining; we would be pleased to see you in Kirtland and more pleased to have you embrace the New Covenant. I remain.

Yours affectionately

Joseph Smith Jr [p. 232]

[Arenera]

I'm quite literally the opposite of a fan of the LoF's, having seen many people, firsthand, use (or misuse, as you please) them as the pretext and justification for their spiritually fanatical "sacrifices." Lectures 6 & 7 seem like pure spiritual extremism to me.

I am curious, however, how the case you've made, Arenera, can hold water in terms of their being included in every edition of the D&C published during Joseph Smith's lifetime - does that not constitute a pretty obvious endorsement by him? If not, please clarify.

Thanks to drtanner for this topic!

I'm convinced that Sidney Rigdon wrote the Lectures on Faith. It also appears that the way the First Presidency works today is different than the way it worked in the days of Joseph Smith. Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon tried to exert their own philosophies into the mix of things.

Why would they be voting on the canonization when Joseph Smith and the 12 apostles were not there?

Finrock brought up the endorsement of the First Presidency, having Joseph's name on it. That was prepared 6 months before publication. Interestingly, the endorsement was for the "commandments", not the Doctrine or what is known as the Lectures on Faith.

So, while I have read the LoF a couple of times, they have not had impact on me. I believe the committee in 1921 made the correct choice and took them out of the Doctrine and Covenants.

I agree with you Jesef, some people have gone overboard on the sacrifice part. It reminds me of Eagle Scout Projects: "Ok, what should I do". "Well, we have done this before, do it." Ok, I'll resign from the church, hope that is an acceptable sacrifice.

18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.

20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit[/b]. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

Also in Reynolds document:

(page 33) On the central issue of delineating the attributes of God that have to be understood before one can have faith, the Kirtland Lectures and this of Finney develop remarkably similar lists.

Finney: Benevolence, Omniscience (knowledge), justice, mercy, truth.

LoF: Knowledge, faith (power), justice, mercy, truth.

LoF Order of Gospel Principles: Sacrifice, knowledge, faith, enduring temptation, eternal life.

Book of Mormon: Repentance, Baptism in water, Gift of the Holy Ghost.

So, unless someone can find something in the Joseph Smith Papers, LoF is not scripture.

[ajax]

It is used by all the LDS/Mormon/Restoration spinoff groups as a guidebook and a justification for their fanaticism and elitism. And it's easy to see how/why.

Which sect was more fanatical? The sect that decided to uproot all and move to an isolated desert location under polygamous kings -OR- the sect who rejected that?

I'm quite literally the opposite of a fan of the LoF's, having seen many people, firsthand, use (or misuse, as you please) them as the pretext and justification for their spiritually fanatical "sacrifices." Lectures 6 & 7 seem like pure spiritual extremism to me.

All religions are pretty fanatical at there foundation. Over time they seem to turn into milk toast bore sessions, centering around petty rules.

Jesus was a big fanatic, paraphrasing: "drop your stuff, follow me", "sell all you have", "if you want to be my disciple, hate your relatives", "believe me or be damned"

[Arenera]

Have I committed blasphemy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiV4dCY ... oV4YIXTd2h

This just might fall into what people term a "tradition". Because the LoF were included in the D&C 1835, most people believe they came from Joseph Smith.

The lectures were written by Sidney Rigdon.

School of the prophets:
D&C 88:127 And again, the order of the house prepared for the presidency of the school of the prophets, established for their instruction in all things that are expedient for them, even for all the officers of the church, or in other words, those who are called to the ministry in the church, beginning at the high priests, even down to the deacons—

In Dec/Jan of 1832.

School of the Prophets: University of Utah!

[marc]

Great find on the LoF Youtube videos! I look forward to watching them.

Regarding Sidney Rigdon, I realize that he attempted to exalt himself early on and was chastened by the Lord. But regardless of who Sidney became in the end, who he was in the beginning is worth noting and worth not discounting. Along with Joseph, in about 1832, he was tarred and feathered, dragged along the frozen ground, lacerating and banging up his head badly, leaving him delirious afterwards and suffering depression after that. That incident messed him up badly. My heart goes out to him for what he suffered because I don't know what it's like, though Joseph also suffered a lot. In any case, I do not attribute too much "traditions" to Sidney. After all, he did experience (along with the twelve) the presence of both the Father and the Son soon after the organization of the school of the prophets in 1833:

There were members as follows: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, William Smith, Frederick G. Williams, Orson Hyde (who had the charge of the school), Zebedee Coltrin, Sylvester Smith, Joseph Smith, Sr., Levi Hancock, Martin Harris, Sidney Rigdon, Newel K. Whitney, Samuel H. Smith, John Murdock, Lyman Johnson and Ezra Thayer.

The salutation as written in the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 88:136-141] was carried out at that time, and at every meeting, and the washing of feet was attended to, the sacrament was also administered at times when Joseph appointed, after the ancient order; that is, warm bread to break easy was provided and broken into pieces as large as my fist and each person had a glass of wine and sat and ate the bread and drank the wine; and Joseph said that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness. Every time we were called together to attend to any business, we came together in the morning about sunrise, fasting and partook of the sacrament each time, and before going to school we washed ourselves and put on clean linen.

At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized_ on the 23rd of January, 1833, when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother. Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. He (Brother Coltrin) experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.

When asked about the kind of clothing the Father had on, Brother Coltrin said: I did not discover his clothing for he was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but this appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in his presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that they exist and that they are two separate personages.

This appearance occurred about two or three weeks after the opening of the school. After the Father had passed through, Joseph told us to again take our positions in prayer. We did so, and in a very short time he drew our attention and said to us that Brother Reynolds Cahoon was about to leave us, and told us to look at him. He (Brother Cahoon) was on his knees and his arms were extended, his hands and wrists, head, face and neck down to his shoulders were as a piece of amber, clear and transparent, his blood having apparently left his veins. Upon the attention of the brethren being thus called to Brother Cahoon, the change seemed to pass away and Joseph said that in a few minutes more, Brother Cahoon would have left us, but he came to himself again.--http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ZebC.html

Furthermore, Sidney and Joseph both gazed into the celestial kingdom and we read what they witnessed in D&C 76, which happened in 1832:

12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—

13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.

15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—

16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.

20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God...

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

And the kicker:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

So we get an understanding of what both Joseph Smith AND Sidney Rigdon both saw and heard on two different occasions: The Father AND the Son, along with D&C 76. Both incidences occurred before the LoF were written (whether authored by Joseph or Sidney or both or both and others in an appointed committee. Of the vision of the celestial kingdom, Philo Dibble, who was present, related:

One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

Joseph and Sidney gazed into heaven for about an hour! Furthermore,

It is apparent that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them" (TPJS, p. 305).

He also said,

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 324

If one could gaze five minutes into heaven, one would know more than all that ever written. And Joseph and Sidney both gazed into heaven for about an hour. So can we, with some degree of confidence, trust that Sidney knew what he was talking about when he authored/co-authored the Lectures on Faith and that he wrote from experience, rather than creating traditions? There's certainly one way to find out.

I will add my own witness to the veracity of the Lectures on Faith because of my own experiences in studying them, learning them and applying them. They may not be the direct result of prophecy or "revelations" as have been argued by committee members and scholars of this century, but they are most certainly the product of divine inspiration resulting from prophecy and revelation!

[Original_Intent]

I agree Marc, and furthermore the spirit has testified to me strongly regarding the Lectures. But I am grateful for this thread as it has reconciled my negative feelings about the LoF being "de-canonized". I realize not everyone will agree with me on that, that's fine - but it's been good for me to get that settled.

Kind of reminds me of an exchange from the movie "Circle of Iron" aka "The Silent Flute":

Cord: How long have you been blind?
Blind Man: How long have you been blind?
Cord: I'm not blind.
Blind Man: Am I?
Cord: Do you answer every question with a question?
Blind Man: Do you question every answer?
Cord: Aww, talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Blind Man: Buddha once sat before a wall, and when he arose he was enlightened.
Cord: Do you compare yourself with Buddha?
Blind Man: (chuckles) No. Only to the wall.

[oneClimbs]

If one could gaze five minutes into heaven, one would know more than all that ever written. And Joseph and Sidney both gazed into heaven for about an hour. So can we, with some degree of confidence, trust that Sidney knew what he was talking about when he authored/co-authored the Lectures on Faith and that he wrote from experience, rather than creating traditions? There's certainly one way to find out.

I will add my own witness to the veracity of the Lectures on Faith because of my own experiences in studying them, learning them and applying them. They may not be the direct result of prophecy or "revelations" as have been argued by committee members and scholars of this century, but they are most certainly the product of divine inspiration resulting from prophecy and revelation!

Great post, marc and great perspective on Sidney Rigdon. Much ado has been made about some "smoking gun" evidence that Sidney authored the lectures. I don't really care person man put what word where, the principles are based in the scriptures and they have certainly blessed my life along with many other writings. I don't really care what title is put on them in regards to being scripture or not. The Lectures were in the Doctrine and Covenants for nearly a century and for nearly a decade of the life of Joseph Smith. If Joseph didn't approve of them being in the Doctrine and Covenants wouldn't he have cautioned members as he did often with other writings and books that came among the saints? There may not be any documentary evidence that he preached from them specifically, but there isn't any evidence that he condemned them for the 10 years the Saints had them in their possession and were reading them as scripture.

Five editions of the Doctrine and Covenants were published with the Lectures. Whether they are included in the standard works doesn't matter to me, what matters is that they are available and we have them. LDS leaders still quote from them in General Conference and in the books they write. They are profitable for doctrine and the principles they teach are true. If someone never reads them it has no bearing on their salvation or whether or not they can serve and know God, the principles can be gained from scripture.

You could probably ignore every conference talk for that matter as well since the principles are also there in scripture, but I think we could all agree that exploring everything that has come out of the restoration can be beneficial.

[Arenera]

Great find on the LoF Youtube videos! I look forward to watching them.

Regarding Sidney Rigdon, I realize that he attempted to exalt himself early on and was chastened by the Lord. But regardless of who Sidney became in the end, who he was in the beginning is worth noting and worth not discounting. Along with Joseph, in about 1832, he was tarred and feathered, dragged along the frozen ground, lacerating and banging up his head badly, leaving him delirious afterwards and suffering depression after that. That incident messed him up badly. My heart goes out to him for what he suffered because I don't know what it's like, though Joseph also suffered a lot. In any case, I do not attribute too much "traditions" to Sidney. After all, he did experience (along with the twelve) the presence of both the Father and the Son soon after the organization of the school of the prophets in 1833:

There were members as follows: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, William Smith, Frederick G. Williams, Orson Hyde (who had the charge of the school), Zebedee Coltrin, Sylvester Smith, Joseph Smith, Sr., Levi Hancock, Martin Harris, Sidney Rigdon, Newel K. Whitney, Samuel H. Smith, John Murdock, Lyman Johnson and Ezra Thayer.

The salutation as written in the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 88:136-141] was carried out at that time, and at every meeting, and the washing of feet was attended to, the sacrament was also administered at times when Joseph appointed, after the ancient order; that is, warm bread to break easy was provided and broken into pieces as large as my fist and each person had a glass of wine and sat and ate the bread and drank the wine; and Joseph said that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness. Every time we were called together to attend to any business, we came together in the morning about sunrise, fasting and partook of the sacrament each time, and before going to school we washed ourselves and put on clean linen.

At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized_ on the 23rd of January, 1833, when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother. Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. He (Brother Coltrin) experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.

When asked about the kind of clothing the Father had on, Brother Coltrin said: I did not discover his clothing for he was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but this appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in his presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that they exist and that they are two separate personages.

This appearance occurred about two or three weeks after the opening of the school. After the Father had passed through, Joseph told us to again take our positions in prayer. We did so, and in a very short time he drew our attention and said to us that Brother Reynolds Cahoon was about to leave us, and told us to look at him. He (Brother Cahoon) was on his knees and his arms were extended, his hands and wrists, head, face and neck down to his shoulders were as a piece of amber, clear and transparent, his blood having apparently left his veins. Upon the attention of the brethren being thus called to Brother Cahoon, the change seemed to pass away and Joseph said that in a few minutes more, Brother Cahoon would have left us, but he came to himself again.--http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ZebC.html

Furthermore, Sidney and Joseph both gazed into the celestial kingdom and we read what they witnessed in D&C 76, which happened in 1832:

12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—

13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.

15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—

16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.

20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God...

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

And the kicker:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

So we get an understanding of what both Joseph Smith AND Sidney Rigdon both saw and heard on two different occasions: The Father AND the Son, along with D&C 76. Both incidences occurred before the LoF were written (whether authored by Joseph or Sidney or both or both and others in an appointed committee. Of the vision of the celestial kingdom, Philo Dibble, who was present, related:

One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

Joseph and Sidney gazed into heaven for about an hour! Furthermore,

It is apparent that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them" (TPJS, p. 305).

He also said,

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 324

If one could gaze five minutes into heaven, one would know more than all that ever written. And Joseph and Sidney both gazed into heaven for about an hour. So can we, with some degree of confidence, trust that Sidney knew what he was talking about when he authored/co-authored the Lectures on Faith and that he wrote from experience, rather than creating traditions? There's certainly one way to find out.

I will add my own witness to the veracity of the Lectures on Faith because of my own experiences in studying them, learning them and applying them. They may not be the direct result of prophecy or "revelations" as have been argued by committee members and scholars of this century, but they are most certainly the product of divine inspiration resulting from prophecy and revelation!

Good points!

The tradition I was trying to say is that people think Joseph Smith wrote the LoF, he didn't, Rigdon did.

I checked the JS Papers, I believe in the 2nd book they have the Reynolds document starting at page 355.

I believe the committee made the right choice in 1920.

I watched a couple of the BYU Emeritus Professors discussion on the LoF. They were all saying "the prophet said", which is incorrect. They enjoy the LoF and answer any of the questionable areas with standard LDS/Mormon doctrine, i.e. Mosiah 15, D&C 93, etc.

To me, it is like a puzzle and they get excited that they can piece it together. There are easier places to get the LDS/Mormon doctrine.

I'm sure my position is not popular with the LoF lovers.

[diligently seeking]

Great find on the LoF Youtube videos! I look forward to watching them.

Regarding Sidney Rigdon, I realize that he attempted to exalt himself early on and was chastened by the Lord. But regardless of who Sidney became in the end, who he was in the beginning is worth noting and worth not discounting. Along with Joseph, in about 1832, he was tarred and feathered, dragged along the frozen ground, lacerating and banging up his head badly, leaving him delirious afterwards and suffering depression after that. That incident messed him up badly. My heart goes out to him for what he suffered because I don't know what it's like, though Joseph also suffered a lot. In any case, I do not attribute too much "traditions" to Sidney. After all, he did experience (along with the twelve) the presence of both the Father and the Son soon after the organization of the school of the prophets in 1833:

There were members as follows: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, William Smith, Frederick G. Williams, Orson Hyde (who had the charge of the school), Zebedee Coltrin, Sylvester Smith, Joseph Smith, Sr., Levi Hancock, Martin Harris, Sidney Rigdon, Newel K. Whitney, Samuel H. Smith, John Murdock, Lyman Johnson and Ezra Thayer.

The salutation as written in the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 88:136-141] was carried out at that time, and at every meeting, and the washing of feet was attended to, the sacrament was also administered at times when Joseph appointed, after the ancient order; that is, warm bread to break easy was provided and broken into pieces as large as my fist and each person had a glass of wine and sat and ate the bread and drank the wine; and Joseph said that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness. Every time we were called together to attend to any business, we came together in the morning about sunrise, fasting and partook of the sacrament each time, and before going to school we washed ourselves and put on clean linen.

At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized_ on the 23rd of January, 1833, when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother. Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. He (Brother Coltrin) experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.

When asked about the kind of clothing the Father had on, Brother Coltrin said: I did not discover his clothing for he was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but this appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in his presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that they exist and that they are two separate personages.

This appearance occurred about two or three weeks after the opening of the school. After the Father had passed through, Joseph told us to again take our positions in prayer. We did so, and in a very short time he drew our attention and said to us that Brother Reynolds Cahoon was about to leave us, and told us to look at him. He (Brother Cahoon) was on his knees and his arms were extended, his hands and wrists, head, face and neck down to his shoulders were as a piece of amber, clear and transparent, his blood having apparently left his veins. Upon the attention of the brethren being thus called to Brother Cahoon, the change seemed to pass away and Joseph said that in a few minutes more, Brother Cahoon would have left us, but he came to himself again.--http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ZebC.html

Furthermore, Sidney and Joseph both gazed into the celestial kingdom and we read what they witnessed in D&C 76, which happened in 1832:

12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—

13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.

15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—

16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.

20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God...

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

And the kicker:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

So we get an understanding of what both Joseph Smith AND Sidney Rigdon both saw and heard on two different occasions: The Father AND the Son, along with D&C 76. Both incidences occurred before the LoF were written (whether authored by Joseph or Sidney or both or both and others in an appointed committee. Of the vision of the celestial kingdom, Philo Dibble, who was present, related:

One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

Joseph and Sidney gazed into heaven for about an hour! Furthermore,

It is apparent that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them" (TPJS, p. 305).

He also said,

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 324

If one could gaze five minutes into heaven, one would know more than all that ever written. And Joseph and Sidney both gazed into heaven for about an hour. So can we, with some degree of confidence, trust that Sidney knew what he was talking about when he authored/co-authored the Lectures on Faith and that he wrote from experience, rather than creating traditions? There's certainly one way to find out.

I will add my own witness to the veracity of the Lectures on Faith because of my own experiences in studying them, learning them and applying them. They may not be the direct result of prophecy or "revelations" as have been argued by committee members and scholars of this century, but they are most certainly the product of divine inspiration resulting from prophecy and revelation!

Good points!

The tradition I was trying to say is that people think Joseph Smith wrote the LoF, he didn't, Rigdon did.

I checked the JS Papers, I believe in the 2nd book they have the Reynolds document starting at page 355.

I believe the committee made the right choice in 1920.

I watched a couple of the BYU Emeritus Professors discussion on the LoF. They were all saying "the prophet said", which is incorrect. They enjoy the LoF and answer any of the questionable areas with standard LDS/Mormon doctrine, i.e. Mosiah 15, D&C 93, etc.

To me, it is like a puzzle and they get excited that they can piece it together. There are easier places to get the LDS/Mormon doctrine.

I'm sure my position is not popular with the LoF lovers.

Arenera-- you overestimate your opinion on those who "love" the lectures on faith believing that Joseph HAD to have written it. Lovers of truth as it pertains to Jesus and salvation would just as quick take in and embrace truth from a babe on the lap of Jesus, so to speak, as they would "from authorized figures." When one has the holy spirit / speaking etc through its pure influence-- they have the mind and will of God. The Lof express the mind and will of God, and bears validating fruit for every sincere studier of it / lover of Jesus.

[Arenera]

I'm 31 and I've never heard of the Lectures of Faith before.

You're fortunate!

The Lectures on Faith were study guides for the Kirtland School during the winter of 1834-1835. They were placed in the front of the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants.

In 1920-1921, a committee of apostles determined they were not revelations and were removed from the 1921 Doctrine and Covenants.

Some people become fanatics on certain parts of the lectures, especially Lecture 6 on sacrifice.

Did Talmage’s year-long awareness of these extreme forms of misguided devotion to sections of the Lectures on Faith taking place in West Tintic contribute to his committee’s recommendation that they be removed them from the D&C? It is difficult to draw a direct correlation, but I find it likely. In a 1975 BYU Studies article titled “What of the Lectures on Faith?” Leland H. Gentry suggests something that matches the spirit of this possibility:

Some have wondered why the Lectures on Faith were removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. The answer is not difficult to find. Their inclusion in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants had gained for the lectures a position of honor not likely intended by those who first placed them there. They were study helps, not revelations. When it became apparent that some in the Church were according these doctrinal aids dignity equal to, and sometimes surpassing, that of the revelations themselves, the lectures were removed.

Noel Reynolds research determined that Sidney Rigdon wrote the Lectures. There is no evidence that Joseph endorsed them.

The videos produced by BYU were done in 2003. Reynolds (also a BYU professor) published his research in 2005.

Of recent times, I know of people who have used the sacrifice thoughts in Lecture 6 to resign from the church.

[Original_Intent]

The evidence that Joseph endorsed them was that they were part of the D&C - canonized scripture - for ten years of the prophet's life, and he neither denounced them nor took action to have them removed.

As the prophet of the restoration, I believe if they did not belong there that he certainly would have taken action on his own or been directed by the Lord to do so.

His lack of action is a de facto endorsement. Saying that someone is fortunate to be unaware of the Lectures on Faith certainly reveals more about yourself than about the Lectures,

[Arenera]

The evidence that Joseph endorsed them was that they were part of the D&C - canonized scripture - for ten years of the prophet's life, and he neither denounced them nor took action to have them removed.

As the prophet of the restoration, I believe if they did not belong there that he certainly would have taken action on his own or been directed by the Lord to do so.

His lack of action is a de facto endorsement. Saying that someone is fortunate to be unaware of the Lectures on Faith certainly reveals more about yourself than about the Lectures,

What is revealing? That I agree with the committee that took them out of the D&C?

That I'm not remnant, and put them in their scriptures?

I admit I have a little background in the LoF, so I have no problem that Sidney Rigdon was the writer.

I do know people, following Lecture 6, that determined they had to resign from the church to show sacrifice.

What is wrong with what Christ said, contrite spirit and broken heart? Humility and repentance.

On the other hand, the Book of Mormon is true scipture, and a priceless gift from God.

I know my position is not popular here, but we don't need the Lectures on Faith to get to heaven.

[marc]

I'm 31 and I've never heard of the Lectures of Faith before.

You're fortunate!

Value judgment. Because you say so, doesn't make it so except for you. Because I say otherwise doesn't make it so except for me. Only CelestialAngel can make that judgment for CelestialAngel. Here you go, CelestialAngel:

http://lecturesonfaith.com/

[marc]

Arenera-- you overestimate your opinion on those who "love" the lectures on faith believing that Joseph HAD to have written it. Lovers of truth as it pertains to Jesus and salvation would just as quick take in and embrace truth from a babe on the lap of Jesus, so to speak, as they would "from authorized figures." When one has the holy spirit / speaking etc through its pure influence-- they have the mind and will of God. The Lof express the mind and will of God, and bears validating fruit for every sincere studier of it / lover of Jesus.

+1

[lemuel]

Sidney Rigdon wrote the Lectures on Faith. Weak evidence that Joseph reviewed them. Joseph never quoted from them.

I think they also said that Joseph, Hyrum and the 12 apostles were not present when the people voted on them.

Read the Book of Mormon instead.

Joseph didn't quote the Book of Mormon much either.

[marc]

And for the record, if we can accept unanimously with ample evidence that Sidney Rigdon indeed wrote them, let us not forget that he was at the time, in good standing, an apostle of the Lord and an eye witness of both the Father and the Son. This is no small thing, neither are the Lectures on Faith.

[Arenera]

Some reading for thought...maybe more than thought...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 3?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/15?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/24?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/5?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/7?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/3?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/4?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/9?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/12?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/13?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/14?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/15?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/16?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/17?lang=eng

[marc]

I clicked the first link you posted and the first verse is a feast indeed!

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

[Arenera]

I clicked the first link you posted and the first verse is a feast indeed!

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Ether 12 is very good, excellent information on faith and the heavenly gift.