Anger Never Justified

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Finrock
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Anger Never Justified

Post by Finrock »

The Sermon on the Mount as recorded in KJV of Matt. 5 says the following:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be cin danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The Sermon to the Nephites or Sermon at the Temple says the following:
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Notice the difference?

In the KJV is the phrase, "without a cause" while the Book of Mormon version omits that phrase. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until after the death of Joseph Smith that earlier manuscripts of the New Testament were found which also omitted the phrase "without a cause". Most scholars today believe that the phrase, "without a cause" was added later in order to make the teaching less controversial. That also means that it was through Joseph Smith that the world first was introduced to the correct version of this teaching and as a by product this adds legitimacy to the Book of Mormon as an authentic work.

The JST also omits the phrase, by the way.

So, the correct teaching is that we should not get angry at our brother. Now, another important point is that "...the word usually translated as brother is gender neutral in the original Greek, and is more accurately translated as 'brother or sister.'" In short, this scripture is referring to the whole human race. The reason why I point this out is to demonstrate that there is no "wiggle" room is so far as to whom this scripture refers to and what it is asking us to do or not to do.

We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.

Now, let us examine the word "Raca" and what is meant by "thou fool" because they are closely related. The word "Raca" is an Aramaic term for contempt. It is also similar in meaning to "apostate". As far as "thou fool" this phrase is not referring to one's intelligence, but rather, this is speaking to "a censorious judging of a man's spiritual and eternal estate" or saying to a person "...thou wicked man, thou ungodly wretch, thou graceless creature..." Indeed the Jews taught that "it is forbidden a man to call his neighbour by a name of reproach, everyone that calls his neighbour (evr) , 'a wicked man', shall be brought down to hell...'

In short, we are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone, which anger leads to treating others with contempt and finally in our anger to censoriously judge a man's spiritual or eternal estate, calling them a "wicked one". Else we place ourselves in danger of being judged ourselves and eventually even in danger of hell fire, or being "brought down to hell".

The way that we should be instead is that we are to love everyone as ourselves, including also our enemies. We should bless all, do good to all, pray for all, and to show loving kindness and goodness to even those who would use us, abuse us, or who seek to destroy us.

No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ. However, as we turn our lives and our wills over the Jesus Christ, it is through His power that we can then keep His commandments and do as He did and become as He was. The natural man can't do these things, doesn't want to become or do such things, but Christ can. So, we should come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and take upon us the name of Christ and be filled with His Spirit so we can be One with Him and with the Father, always abounding in good works.

-Finrock

larsenb
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Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 2:49 pm The Sermon on the Mount as recorded in KJV of Matt. 5 says the following:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be cin danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The Sermon to the Nephites or Sermon at the Temple says the following:
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Notice the difference?

In the KJV is the phrase, "without a cause" while the Book of Mormon version omits that phrase. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until after the death of Joseph Smith that earlier manuscripts of the New Testament were found which also omitted the phrase "without a cause". Most scholars today believe that the phrase, "without a cause" was added later in order to make the teaching less controversial. That also means that it was through Joseph Smith that the world first was introduced to the correct version of this teaching and as a by product this adds legitimacy to the Book of Mormon as an authentic work.

The JST also omits the phrase, by the way.

So, the correct teaching is that we should not get angry at our brother. Now, another important point is that "...the word usually translated as brother is gender neutral in the original Greek, and is more accurately translated as 'brother or sister.'" In short, this scripture is referring to the whole human race. The reason why I point this out is to demonstrate that there is no "wiggle" room is so far as to whom this scripture refers to and what it is asking us to do or not to do.

We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.

Now, let us examine the word "Raca" and what is meant by "thou fool" because they are closely related. The word "Raca" is an Aramaic term for contempt. It is also similar in meaning to "apostate". As far as "thou fool" this phrase is not referring to one's intelligence, but rather, this is speaking to "a censorious judging of a man's spiritual and eternal estate" or saying to a person "...thou wicked man, thou ungodly wretch, thou graceless creature..." Indeed the Jews taught that "it is forbidden a man to call his neighbour by a name of reproach, everyone that calls his neighbour (evr) , 'a wicked man', shall be brought down to hell...'

In short, we are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone, which anger leads to treating others with contempt and finally in our anger to censoriously judge a man's spiritual or eternal estate, calling them a "wicked one". Else we place ourselves in danger of being judged ourselves and eventually even in danger of hell fire, or being "brought down to hell".

The way that we should be instead is that we are to love everyone as ourselves, including also our enemies. We should bless all, do good to all, pray for all, and to show loving kindness and goodness to even those who would use us, abuse us, or who seek to destroy us.

No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ. However, as we turn our lives and our wills over the Jesus Christ, it is through His power that we can then keep His commandments and do as He did and become as He was. The natural man can't do these things, doesn't want to become or do such things, but Christ can. So, we should come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and take upon us the name of Christ and be filled with His Spirit so we can be One with Him and with the Father, always abounding in good works.

-Finrock
Too black-and-white. This mode of thinking seems endemic to so many.

I've had experiences of flash anger that led to almost instantaneous action that in retrospect seemed to be the right action. Anger, especially induced by a perception of injustice, can lead to correct, and corrective action. Anger is just another human emotion that arises due to different provocations and perceptions. It's how you handle it and act out on it is where the danger lies. And if you harbor it (racha) and fester in it, this can be very bad (drawing you away from good attitudes, thoughts and actions) and very unhealthy.

I remember a story where Joseph kicked out a very libidinous individual who had been acting out on his impulses, from his household, and the words Joseph used against this individual evinced quite a bit of anger directed toward the man.

Anger can lead to very effective, correct and just actions. That is essentially the way I see it. It is our natural reaction to threat and injustice and is very akin to fight or flight.

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by Finrock »

larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:43 pm
Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 2:49 pm The Sermon on the Mount as recorded in KJV of Matt. 5 says the following:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be cin danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The Sermon to the Nephites or Sermon at the Temple says the following:
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Notice the difference?

In the KJV is the phrase, "without a cause" while the Book of Mormon version omits that phrase. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until after the death of Joseph Smith that earlier manuscripts of the New Testament were found which also omitted the phrase "without a cause". Most scholars today believe that the phrase, "without a cause" was added later in order to make the teaching less controversial. That also means that it was through Joseph Smith that the world first was introduced to the correct version of this teaching and as a by product this adds legitimacy to the Book of Mormon as an authentic work.

The JST also omits the phrase, by the way.

So, the correct teaching is that we should not get angry at our brother. Now, another important point is that "...the word usually translated as brother is gender neutral in the original Greek, and is more accurately translated as 'brother or sister.'" In short, this scripture is referring to the whole human race. The reason why I point this out is to demonstrate that there is no "wiggle" room is so far as to whom this scripture refers to and what it is asking us to do or not to do.

We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.

Now, let us examine the word "Raca" and what is meant by "thou fool" because they are closely related. The word "Raca" is an Aramaic term for contempt. It is also similar in meaning to "apostate". As far as "thou fool" this phrase is not referring to one's intelligence, but rather, this is speaking to "a censorious judging of a man's spiritual and eternal estate" or saying to a person "...thou wicked man, thou ungodly wretch, thou graceless creature..." Indeed the Jews taught that "it is forbidden a man to call his neighbour by a name of reproach, everyone that calls his neighbour (evr) , 'a wicked man', shall be brought down to hell...'

In short, we are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone, which anger leads to treating others with contempt and finally in our anger to censoriously judge a man's spiritual or eternal estate, calling them a "wicked one". Else we place ourselves in danger of being judged ourselves and eventually even in danger of hell fire, or being "brought down to hell".

The way that we should be instead is that we are to love everyone as ourselves, including also our enemies. We should bless all, do good to all, pray for all, and to show loving kindness and goodness to even those who would use us, abuse us, or who seek to destroy us.

No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ. However, as we turn our lives and our wills over the Jesus Christ, it is through His power that we can then keep His commandments and do as He did and become as He was. The natural man can't do these things, doesn't want to become or do such things, but Christ can. So, we should come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and take upon us the name of Christ and be filled with His Spirit so we can be One with Him and with the Father, always abounding in good works.

-Finrock
Too black-and-white. This mode of thinking seems endemic to so many.

I've had experiences of flash anger that led to almost instantaneous action that in retrospect seemed to be the right action. Anger, especially induced by a perception of injustice, can lead to correct, and corrective action. Anger is just another human emotion that arises due to different provocations and perceptions. It's how you handle it and act out on it is where the danger enters in. And if you harbor it (racha) and fester in it, this can be very bad (drawing you away from good attitudes, thoughts and actions) and very unhealthy.

But anger can lead to very effective and just actions. That is essentially the way I see it.

I remember a story where Joseph kicked out a very libidinous individual who had been acting out on his impulses, from his household, and the words Joseph used against this individual evinced quite a bit of anger directed toward the man.
No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

larsenb
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:43 pm
Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 2:49 pm . . . . .

Too black-and-white. This mode of thinking seems endemic to so many.

I've had experiences of flash anger that led to almost instantaneous action that in retrospect seemed to be the right action. Anger, especially induced by a perception of injustice, can lead to correct, and corrective action. Anger is just another human emotion that arises due to different provocations and perceptions. It's how you handle it and act out on it is where the danger enters in. And if you harbor it (racha) and fester in it, this can be very bad (drawing you away from good attitudes, thoughts and actions) and very unhealthy.

But anger can lead to very effective and just actions. That is essentially the way I see it.

I remember a story where Joseph kicked out a very libidinous individual who had been acting out on his impulses, from his household, and the words Joseph used against this individual evinced quite a bit of anger directed toward the man.
No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ.

-Finrock
The anger I'm talking about arises almost instantaneously and normally doesn't allow instantaneous 'repression', or reflection against 'religious' requirements.

If I see a mountain lion attack one of my young ones, I would be on it in a trice w/a weapon, a rock or my bare hands on my way to save the child. Same holds for a human doing something like that. I would be full-bore charged w/adrenaline/anger, w/no time to consider that such a state was a no-no.

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Jonesy
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by Jonesy »

I can agree with this. Manifesting anger would not be a sin, though. But I don't know how you justify the hundreds of times mentioning God's wrath in the scriptures.

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shadow
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by shadow »

Jonesy1982 wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:59 pm I can agree with this. Manifesting anger would not be a sin, though. But I don't know how you justify the hundreds of times mentioning God's wrath in the scriptures.
His wrath and indignation.

To quote the natural man Finrock-
"The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ."

The natural man also interprets the scriptures according to their own understanding, which can be wrong, obviously.

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AI2.0
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by AI2.0 »

Finrock: We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.
You are not correct in this judgment you've made against God. He's not a hypocrite because his anger is always righteous and always justified. We can be in danger of judgment if our anger is unrighteous or unjustified.

We need to be careful in justifying our anger--we've been warned about it, but we should not be blind to or critical of God's anger. His wrath is righteous and therefore, he is always justified and we have no right to tell him he is not justified in his anger.

Look up 'wrath' in the index and you will find many instances of God's wrath/anger (almost half a page of references in the triple combination), taken out upon the wicked, the scornful and the rebellious.

D&C 19:15
'Therefore I command you to repent--repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your suffering be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not."

And, lest we forget, he has told us he chastises those he loves.

eddie
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by eddie »

larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:43 pm
Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 2:49 pm The Sermon on the Mount as recorded in KJV of Matt. 5 says the following:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be cin danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The Sermon to the Nephites or Sermon at the Temple says the following:
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Notice the difference?

In the KJV is the phrase, "without a cause" while the Book of Mormon version omits that phrase. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until after the death of Joseph Smith that earlier manuscripts of the New Testament were found which also omitted the phrase "without a cause". Most scholars today believe that the phrase, "without a cause" was added later in order to make the teaching less controversial. That also means that it was through Joseph Smith that the world first was introduced to the correct version of this teaching and as a by product this adds legitimacy to the Book of Mormon as an authentic work.

The JST also omits the phrase, by the way.

So, the correct teaching is that we should not get angry at our brother. Now, another important point is that "...the word usually translated as brother is gender neutral in the original Greek, and is more accurately translated as 'brother or sister.'" In short, this scripture is referring to the whole human race. The reason why I point this out is to demonstrate that there is no "wiggle" room is so far as to whom this scripture refers to and what it is asking us to do or not to do.

We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.

Now, let us examine the word "Raca" and what is meant by "thou fool" because they are closely related. The word "Raca" is an Aramaic term for contempt. It is also similar in meaning to "apostate". As far as "thou fool" this phrase is not referring to one's intelligence, but rather, this is speaking to "a censorious judging of a man's spiritual and eternal estate" or saying to a person "...thou wicked man, thou ungodly wretch, thou graceless creature..." Indeed the Jews taught that "it is forbidden a man to call his neighbour by a name of reproach, everyone that calls his neighbour (evr) , 'a wicked man', shall be brought down to hell...'

In short, we are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone, which anger leads to treating others with contempt and finally in our anger to censoriously judge a man's spiritual or eternal estate, calling them a "wicked one". Else we place ourselves in danger of being judged ourselves and eventually even in danger of hell fire, or being "brought down to hell".

The way that we should be instead is that we are to love everyone as ourselves, including also our enemies. We should bless all, do good to all, pray for all, and to show loving kindness and goodness to even those who would use us, abuse us, or who seek to destroy us.

No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ. However, as we turn our lives and our wills over the Jesus Christ, it is through His power that we can then keep His commandments and do as He did and become as He was. The natural man can't do these things, doesn't want to become or do such things, but Christ can. So, we should come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and take upon us the name of Christ and be filled with His Spirit so we can be One with Him and with the Father, always abounding in good works.

-Finrock
Too black-and-white. This mode of thinking seems endemic to so many.

I've had experiences of flash anger that led to almost instantaneous action that in retrospect seemed to be the right action. Anger, especially induced by a perception of injustice, can lead to correct, and corrective action. Anger is just another human emotion that arises due to different provocations and perceptions. It's how you handle it and act out on it is where the danger lies. And if you harbor it (racha) and fester in it, this can be very bad (drawing you away from good attitudes, thoughts and actions) and very unhealthy.

I remember a story where Joseph kicked out a very libidinous individual who had been acting out on his impulses, from his household, and the words Joseph used against this individual evinced quite a bit of anger directed toward the man.

Anger can lead to very effective, correct and just actions. That is essentially the way I see it. It is our natural reaction to threat and injustice and is very akin to fight or flight.
The Lord knows our heart and knows when anger is justified, I am not worried. Saul was angry and the lLord came to him, Saul was a champion, he was needed on the righteous side!

butterfly
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by butterfly »

I'll throw out what little training I've had in Tibetan Buddhism. They teach how to never become angry. It's a new way of thinking about the world which basically centers on this truth: anytime you harm any other living being, you are also harming both yourself and God.
So when larsenb sees the mountain lion attacking his child, his response wouldn't be fueled by anger because he would love the mountain lion the same amount as he loves his child. Of course larsenb would save his child but the way he does it would be different than if he hated the lion. It's like when you see 2 of your kids fighting- you love them both so you respond in a way that shows love for both.

We often think we need anger to drive our fight/ flight or get our adrenaline going. But love is a much stronger force than anger. Anger + adrenaline usually equals destruction (in this case the lion would be killed).
Love + adrenaline usually equals a miracle (the lion hears the voice of God in you and goes away).

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marc
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by marc »

I agree, Finrock. The Lord requires us to forgive, though He will forgive whom He will forgive. And while I will not question the Lord's prerogative to become angry, I do not use His prerogative to justify myself if I become angry. Furthermore, because others have been angry (Nephi lamented in 2 Nephi 4 because of his anger and considered himself a wretched man, even sinful because of it), I likewise do not use their experiences to justify myself. I prefer to quickly forgive, be merciful, and suffer whatever I am required to suffer at the hands of others and remain obedient to Jesus' sayings and commandments because I believe that Jesus will in turn be merciful toward me and not be angry at me at the last day. I want to be part of His fellowship of suffering and longsuffering, who chooses not to resist evil. I want to be part of those who returned good for evil. I have suffered enough abuse in my life to know that being angry is fruitless and no good thing comes of it. People either believe Jesus or they don't. But for those who need an "out," they can find it in D&C 98. I won't copy and paste the passages as there is a lot to consider. For those who want an "out," the Lord will avenge you one hundred fold, but it is conditional. Joseph Smith once said that if you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. And if you have no accusers, you will enter heaven. Personally speaking, I want to approach the Lord at the last day knowing I left this world with no accusers.

larsenb
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

butterfly wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 6:21 pm I'll throw out what little training I've had in Tibetan Buddhism. They teach how to never become angry. It's a new way of thinking about the world which basically centers on this truth: anytime you harm any other living being, you are also harming both yourself and God.
So when larsenb sees the mountain lion attacking his child, his response wouldn't be fueled by anger because he would love the mountain lion the same amount as he loves his child. Of course larsenb would save his child but the way he does it would be different than if he hated the lion. It's like when you see 2 of your kids fighting- you love them both so you respond in a way that shows love for both.

We often think we need anger to drive our fight/ flight or get our adrenaline going. But love is a much stronger force than anger. Anger + adrenaline usually equals destruction (in this case the lion would be killed).
Love + adrenaline usually equals a miracle (the lion hears the voice of God in you and goes away).
No offense, but to me this is quibbling over symantecs and comes across as a 'tad' naive.

With the expressions of anger I'm talking about, there is about zero thinking involved except how to protect those being attacked and how to neutralize the attacker. The only love involved is directed to the innocent victim you need to protect.

And we aren't talking about "hate", we are talking about the emotional reaction called 'anger'.

I'm rather neutral about lions but am naturally in awe of them with fear being just under the surface when I see them in a zoo, but they are animals red in tooth and claw. As in many other parts of nature, male lions are known to kill cubs sired by a different male. This kind of activity, as well as some of their other actions, don't strike me as very loving on their part, nor does it engender much love for them in my breast.

Finrock
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by Finrock »

larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:54 pm
larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:43 pm
Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 2:49 pm . . . . .

Too black-and-white. This mode of thinking seems endemic to so many.

I've had experiences of flash anger that led to almost instantaneous action that in retrospect seemed to be the right action. Anger, especially induced by a perception of injustice, can lead to correct, and corrective action. Anger is just another human emotion that arises due to different provocations and perceptions. It's how you handle it and act out on it is where the danger enters in. And if you harbor it (racha) and fester in it, this can be very bad (drawing you away from good attitudes, thoughts and actions) and very unhealthy.

But anger can lead to very effective and just actions. That is essentially the way I see it.

I remember a story where Joseph kicked out a very libidinous individual who had been acting out on his impulses, from his household, and the words Joseph used against this individual evinced quite a bit of anger directed toward the man.
No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ.

-Finrock
The anger I'm talking about arises almost instantaneously and normally doesn't allow instantaneous 'repression', or reflection against 'religious' requirements.

If I see a mountain lion attack one of my young ones, I would be on it in a trice w/a weapon, a rock or my bare hands on my way to save the child. Same holds for a human doing something like that. I would be full-bore charged w/adrenaline/anger, w/no time to consider that such a state was a no-no.
Doesn't say we won't get angry, just that we aren't justified.

This is exceedingly difficult doctrine to the natural man. It will take the power of Christ to live this way, if you so desire.

-Finrock

larsenb
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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

marc wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 6:38 pm I agree, Finrock. The Lord requires us to forgive, though He will forgive whom He will forgive. And while I will not question the Lord's prerogative to become angry, I do not use His prerogative to justify myself if I become angry. Furthermore, because others have been angry (Nephi lamented in 2 Nephi 4 because of his anger and considered himself a wretched man, even sinful because of it), I likewise do not use their experiences to justify myself. I prefer to quickly forgive, be merciful, and suffer whatever I am required to suffer at the hands of others and remain obedient to Jesus' sayings and commandments because I believe that Jesus will in turn be merciful toward me and not be angry at me at the last day. I want to be part of His fellowship of suffering and longsuffering, who chooses not to resist evil. I want to be part of those who returned good for evil. I have suffered enough abuse in my life to know that being angry is fruitless and no good thing comes of it. People either believe Jesus or they don't. But for those who need an "out," they can find it in D&C 98. I won't copy and paste the passages as there is a lot to consider. For those who want an "out," the Lord will avenge you one hundred fold, but it is conditional. Joseph Smith once said that if you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. And if you have no accusers, you will enter heaven. Personally speaking, I want to approach the Lord at the last day knowing I left this world with no accusers.
Anger can and does fuel corrective action, from which good can flow. Is this always the case? No. And acting justly and quickly, fueled to some degree by the emotion of anger, does not preclude being quick to forgive and be merciful.

What if in the middle of your being abused, a potential protector saw this, and out of his indignation (anger fueled), ran to your aide and was able to both protect you and remove you from the situation? Would not this have been a good thing?? Would your abuser dare to hold this against your protector at the bar of God? Certainly not. Also, you would be there to heap even more thanks and praise on his head for protecting you.

I've had some singular experiences w/anger-fueled protection of other people, which stopped the abuse. I don't feel a whit repentant about these actions I took, nor do I think this will be held against me from those whose abusive behaviour I stopped.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 7:10 pm
larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:54 pm
. . . . . . The anger I'm talking about arises almost instantaneously and normally doesn't allow instantaneous 'repression', or reflection against 'religious' requirements.

If I see a mountain lion attack one of my young ones, I would be on it in a trice w/a weapon, a rock or my bare hands on my way to save the child. Same holds for a human doing something like that. I would be full-bore charged w/adrenaline/anger, w/no time to consider that such a state was a no-no.
Doesn't say we won't get angry, just that we aren't justified.

This is exceedingly difficult doctrine to the natural man. It will take the power of Christ to live this way, if you so desire.

-Finrock
We'll just have to disagree on that one Finrock.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by Finrock »

AI2.0 wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 5:52 pm
Finrock: We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.
You are not correct in this judgment you've made against God. He's not a hypocrite because his anger is always righteous and always justified. We can be in danger of judgment if our anger is unrighteous or unjustified.

We need to be careful in justifying our anger--we've been warned about it, but we should not be blind to or critical of God's anger. His wrath is righteous and therefore, he is always justified and we have no right to tell him he is not justified in his anger.

Look up 'wrath' in the index and you will find many instances of God's wrath/anger (almost half a page of references in the triple combination), taken out upon the wicked, the scornful and the rebellious.

D&C 19:15
'Therefore I command you to repent--repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your suffering be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not."

And, lest we forget, he has told us he chastises those he loves.
I know God is not a hypocrite. It our perception that needs to change, not God.

Chastisement should not be from anger.

God speaks to us in our own language accord to our own understanding in a way that will be most effective to us.

People who are living in sin will perceive a different God than those who are His friends. The scriptures reflect these various relationship states. So, in some scriptures you have a loving compassionate God and in others an angry God. God doesn't change but how man perceives Him does.

"Endless" punishment is God's punishment. The Lords "anger" and "wrath" is much different from man's anger and wrath. Not really the same thing at all. But the words get the attention of the wicked.

-Finrock

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by Finrock »

eddie wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 5:57 pm
larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 4:43 pm
Finrock wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 2:49 pm The Sermon on the Mount as recorded in KJV of Matt. 5 says the following:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be cin danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The Sermon to the Nephites or Sermon at the Temple says the following:
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Notice the difference?

In the KJV is the phrase, "without a cause" while the Book of Mormon version omits that phrase. Interestingly enough, it wasn't until after the death of Joseph Smith that earlier manuscripts of the New Testament were found which also omitted the phrase "without a cause". Most scholars today believe that the phrase, "without a cause" was added later in order to make the teaching less controversial. That also means that it was through Joseph Smith that the world first was introduced to the correct version of this teaching and as a by product this adds legitimacy to the Book of Mormon as an authentic work.

The JST also omits the phrase, by the way.

So, the correct teaching is that we should not get angry at our brother. Now, another important point is that "...the word usually translated as brother is gender neutral in the original Greek, and is more accurately translated as 'brother or sister.'" In short, this scripture is referring to the whole human race. The reason why I point this out is to demonstrate that there is no "wiggle" room is so far as to whom this scripture refers to and what it is asking us to do or not to do.

We are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone. There is no such thing as "righteous anger". All anger is unrighteous and places us in danger of judgment. This also has implications on parts of the scriptures that talk seemingly talk about God's "anger" or God's "wrath". Clearly God would not command us to not be angry, ever, while He hypocritically is angry and wrathful. Therefore, if we believe God gets angry or is wrathful, then we need to reevaluate our beliefs in light of this.

Now, let us examine the word "Raca" and what is meant by "thou fool" because they are closely related. The word "Raca" is an Aramaic term for contempt. It is also similar in meaning to "apostate". As far as "thou fool" this phrase is not referring to one's intelligence, but rather, this is speaking to "a censorious judging of a man's spiritual and eternal estate" or saying to a person "...thou wicked man, thou ungodly wretch, thou graceless creature..." Indeed the Jews taught that "it is forbidden a man to call his neighbour by a name of reproach, everyone that calls his neighbour (evr) , 'a wicked man', shall be brought down to hell...'

In short, we are not justified, ever, in being angry at anyone, which anger leads to treating others with contempt and finally in our anger to censoriously judge a man's spiritual or eternal estate, calling them a "wicked one". Else we place ourselves in danger of being judged ourselves and eventually even in danger of hell fire, or being "brought down to hell".

The way that we should be instead is that we are to love everyone as ourselves, including also our enemies. We should bless all, do good to all, pray for all, and to show loving kindness and goodness to even those who would use us, abuse us, or who seek to destroy us.

No wonder it takes great faith to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. The natural man hates the ideas of Christ. The natural man will condemn such things, rebel against such things, and seek to rationalize away the commandments of Jesus Christ. However, as we turn our lives and our wills over the Jesus Christ, it is through His power that we can then keep His commandments and do as He did and become as He was. The natural man can't do these things, doesn't want to become or do such things, but Christ can. So, we should come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and take upon us the name of Christ and be filled with His Spirit so we can be One with Him and with the Father, always abounding in good works.

-Finrock
Too black-and-white. This mode of thinking seems endemic to so many.

I've had experiences of flash anger that led to almost instantaneous action that in retrospect seemed to be the right action. Anger, especially induced by a perception of injustice, can lead to correct, and corrective action. Anger is just another human emotion that arises due to different provocations and perceptions. It's how you handle it and act out on it is where the danger lies. And if you harbor it (racha) and fester in it, this can be very bad (drawing you away from good attitudes, thoughts and actions) and very unhealthy.

I remember a story where Joseph kicked out a very libidinous individual who had been acting out on his impulses, from his household, and the words Joseph used against this individual evinced quite a bit of anger directed toward the man.

Anger can lead to very effective, correct and just actions. That is essentially the way I see it. It is our natural reaction to threat and injustice and is very akin to fight or flight.
The Lord knows our heart and knows when anger is justified, I am not worried. Saul was angry and the lLord came to him, Saul was a champion, he was needed on the righteous side!
God mercifully condescends to interact with us fallen mankind. God is also forgiving and promptly forgives those who sincerely repent. The scriptures reflect both good and bad behavior and people at various stages in their life. Regardless of how others do behave we ought to keep His commandments.

I've been angry a lot in my life and I don't feel condemned by God because I intend and desire to do good and repent when I have offended Him. If my whole life were available for general review, there would be parts where I am an example and other parts where doing as I do would be a major folly.

-Finrock

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by marc »

larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 7:21 pm
marc wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 6:38 pm I agree, Finrock. The Lord requires us to forgive, though He will forgive whom He will forgive. And while I will not question the Lord's prerogative to become angry, I do not use His prerogative to justify myself if I become angry. Furthermore, because others have been angry (Nephi lamented in 2 Nephi 4 because of his anger and considered himself a wretched man, even sinful because of it), I likewise do not use their experiences to justify myself. I prefer to quickly forgive, be merciful, and suffer whatever I am required to suffer at the hands of others and remain obedient to Jesus' sayings and commandments because I believe that Jesus will in turn be merciful toward me and not be angry at me at the last day. I want to be part of His fellowship of suffering and longsuffering, who chooses not to resist evil. I want to be part of those who returned good for evil. I have suffered enough abuse in my life to know that being angry is fruitless and no good thing comes of it. People either believe Jesus or they don't. But for those who need an "out," they can find it in D&C 98. I won't copy and paste the passages as there is a lot to consider. For those who want an "out," the Lord will avenge you one hundred fold, but it is conditional. Joseph Smith once said that if you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. And if you have no accusers, you will enter heaven. Personally speaking, I want to approach the Lord at the last day knowing I left this world with no accusers.
Anger can and does fuel corrective action, from which good can flow. Is this always the case? No. And acting justly and quickly, fueled to some degree by the emotion of anger, does not preclude being quick to forgive and be merciful.

What if in the middle of your being abused, a potential protector saw this, and out of his indignation (anger fueled), ran to your aide and was able to both protect you and remove you from the situation? Would not this have been a good thing?? Would your abuser dare to hold this against your protector at the bar of God? Certainly not. Also, you would be there to heap even more thanks and praise on his head for protecting you.

I've had some singular experiences w/anger-fueled protection of other people, which stopped the abuse. I don't feel a whit repentant about these actions I took, nor do I think this will be held against me from those whose abusive behaviour I stopped.
I cannot speak for others. That is between them and God. Have there been such situations in my life? Yes, I think so. I do recall feeling relieved of abuse. But again, I cannot control the actions of others and I will not be judged for their choices. I can only control my actions and my emotions. I choose to obey Jesus and when I falter, I pray His forgiveness. As for hypothetical situations that may concern me, I can only say that I hope I will have enough clarity of mind and charity of heart to be obedient and endure my trials as Jesus endured His trials--with patience, meekness and longsuffering, returning good for evil. As I said before, either people believe Jesus or they don't. Those who do tend not to rationalize or justify themselves, and beg His forgiveness when they falter.
17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted...

27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions...

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!...
Nephi shared his ups and his downs. He let us know that he was flawed and foolish as the next man. He let us know that, "hey, even I sin. Even I get angry. Even I don't always obey God." But because he didn't seem to try to justify himself, but instead, his heart was broken and his spirit contrite, he begged God's forgiveness and trusted that God would lift him up at the last day. Did Nephi feel a whit repentant? I think more than a whit.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

marc wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 8:01 pm . . . . . . Nephi shared his ups and his downs. He let us know that he was flawed and foolish as the next man. He let us know that, "hey, even I sin. Even I get angry. Even I don't always obey God." But because he didn't seem to try to justify himself, but instead, his heart was broken and his spirit contrite, he begged God's forgiveness and trusted that God would lift him up at the last day. Did Nephi feel a whit repentant? I think more than a whit.
Well, my stance is that the hypothetical I mentioned: of someone in his anger, saving you from abuse; or the instances I've mentioned along the same lines in my life, are not sins at all. Or weaknesses.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by marc »

I think Nephi well trod that road. After all, he made swords after the manner of Laban's sword to defend his people from Laman and his people. He very likely ended up slaying family to defend family. If I recall, this is alluded to in D&C 98:32 and why I mentioned it above. I also believe God was merciful to Nephi in the end.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by larsenb »

marc wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 8:38 pm I think Nephi well trod that road. After all, he made swords after the manner of Laban's sword to defend his people from Laman and his people. He very likely ended up slaying family to defend family. If I recall, this is alluded to in D&C 98:32 and why I mentioned it above. I also believe God was merciful to Nephi in the end.
I agree. I think I'm normally fully justified in protecting those I love, even if motivated by anger. But you probably are better off if you can be cold and deliberate in your actions of protection. Less apt to do something rash.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by eddie »

I have been to anger management classes so many times, I have my PH.D Having to take court ordered anger management is one thing that really pisses me off!
( of course this is all kidding.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by marc »

larsenb wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 9:48 pm
marc wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 8:38 pm I think Nephi well trod that road. After all, he made swords after the manner of Laban's sword to defend his people from Laman and his people. He very likely ended up slaying family to defend family. If I recall, this is alluded to in D&C 98:32 and why I mentioned it above. I also believe God was merciful to Nephi in the end.
I agree. I think I'm normally fully justified in protecting those I love, even if motivated by anger. But you probably are better off if you can be cold and deliberate in your actions of protection. Less apt to do something rash.
That brings up an interesting thought and question. Is it better to be cold and unfeeling? I'm not sure. Perhaps Nephi's test to slay Laban (fully justified by the Lord and the law) exposed Nephi to all the internal conflicts a man can endure. And it may well be something the Lord experiences every time He is left to do nothing but destroy his willfully rebellious children (flood of Noah, for example).
Moses 7:27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?...

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them...

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by marc »

I will just add one more thought from D&C 98 for those who feel justified in doing what the Lord said not to do.
D&C 98:11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.

12 For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith.

13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.

14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.

15 For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.

16 Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;

17 And again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets, and the prophets unto the Jews; lest I come and smite the whole earth with a curse, and all flesh be consumed before me.
The Lord furthermore said,
22 And again I say unto you, if ye observe to do whatsoever I command you, I, the Lord, will turn away all wrath and indignation from you, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

23 Now, I speak unto you concerning your families—if men will smite you, or your families, once, and ye bear it patiently and revile not against them, neither seek revenge, ye shall be rewarded;

24 But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you.

25 And again, if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an hundred-fold.

26 And again, if he shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four-fold;

27 And these three testimonies shall stand against your enemy if he repent not, and shall not be blotted out...
So there's what the Lord requires us to learn and do. And He gives us an "out," but I personally never want to be on the side of meting justice. I hope I always err on the side of mercy and abide in my covenant unto death. D&C 98 is a very good section to read and study and ponder deeply.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by inho »

Orson Pratt in Millenial Star vol. 28:473-475; July 28, 1866:
For wise purposes, God has given you appetites and passions, and has given you laws to control the same. Do not pray for these attributes of your nature to be taken away; but pray for strength and grace to submit them to the will of him who has given them to you.
Anger is a passion wisely given to intelligent beings, intended for a good purpose but it is one easily perverted by fallen beings into an instrument of much evil. It is a passion pertaining to the Almighty who is angry with the wicked every day. Righteous anger is a feeling of indignation against sin, a feeling of justice, a feeling that the evil-doer merits punishment. This kind of anger is justifiable, whether it exists in the bosom of God, angels, or men: but anger founded upon any other principle is sinful, and when cultivated and indulged out of its proper channel, it brings misery and wretchedness upon all its unhappy votaries. Because we are so liable to sin through an improper indulgence of anger, is it right to pray for a destruction of the attribute? It certainly is not; for if man were dispossessed of this attribute, he would be unfit for a kingdom, where justice and judgment were the characteristics of the throne; he would be unfit for the society of the heavenly hosts, unfit for celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory. Anger founded on justice and properly governed, is essential to the happiness of every kingdom; without it there could be no exaltation, no glory, and man would cease to be man, and dwindle into a non-descript something, beneath the animal creation.

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Re: Anger Never Justified

Post by MMbelieve »

butterfly wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 6:21 pm I'll throw out what little training I've had in Tibetan Buddhism. They teach how to never become angry. It's a new way of thinking about the world which basically centers on this truth: anytime you harm any other living being, you are also harming both yourself and God.
So when larsenb sees the mountain lion attacking his child, his response wouldn't be fueled by anger because he would love the mountain lion the same amount as he loves his child. Of course larsenb would save his child but the way he does it would be different than if he hated the lion. It's like when you see 2 of your kids fighting- you love them both so you respond in a way that shows love for both.

We often think we need anger to drive our fight/ flight or get our adrenaline going. But love is a much stronger force than anger. Anger + adrenaline usually equals destruction (in this case the lion would be killed).
Love + adrenaline usually equals a miracle (the lion hears the voice of God in you and goes away).

The same idea of sending those away or leaving those who are not good for your life, send them away in love and peace and wish them well. Don't send them away or leave in anger, but in peace and love. It's a higher way to live.

Also with forgiveness. You can forgive with love and peace but never associate with a person again.

The mountain lion thing sure can be confusing. And I don't think anger is the natural response and I don't think many would respond to an attack with anger, but with fear and survival.

Surviving isint anger based. When one has real anger in this situation he would want to maul the lion the same as he mauled his loved one. Killing the lion is not the same and doesn't display anger. Torturing would for sure but not killing it.

Anyway, agreeing with your philosophy here.
It's not only buddhist, its christian and it's the way of life and happiness.

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