Commandments vs Obedience

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drtanner
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Commandments vs Obedience

Post by drtanner »

Let's assume the rich young man who was asked to sell everything and give to the poor by Jesus had already lost everything because it was taken by the government or in an economic downturn and then approached the lord asking "what lack I yet?" What would be the greater test in that moment of his agency / obedience? Sell everything you have and give to the poor or start over and accumulate wealth and use it to provide for those who will help spread my word or help build a house of worship? Does the lord ever alter his commandments to test obedience or accomplish his work?

Are the commandments always unilateral Or are they based on the circumstance on the individual to maximize the test of agency and obedience?

Is the commandment to kill unilateral or circumstantial? The commandment to have one wife? The commandment with what to do with ones money?

Is mortality really about the commandment or is it about obedience?

Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Silver
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by Silver »

"Regardless of our age and stage in life, daily obedience to gospel principles is the only sure way to eternal happiness. President Ezra Taft Benson put it most poignantly when he said, “When obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power.”"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

drtanner
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by drtanner »

D&C 59:3 Yea, blessed are they whose feet stand upon the land of Zion, who have obeyed my gospel; for they shall receive for their reward the good things of the earth, and it shall bring forth in its strength.
4 And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me.
What is a commandment not a few? Elder David A. Bednar described these personal commandments this way:

. . . it is an even greater thing to receive and respond to the individual, private, and personally revealed commandments that result from continual and faithful obedience.

. . . The individual and personal “commandments not a few” we receive frequently tend to focus upon the good things we can and should do to develop and deepen our discipleship.


What qualifies us for these commandments not a few? Do the saints ever focus to much on a commandment or sacrifice rather than on obedience and miss valuable opportunities to be blessed from on high?

Silver
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by Silver »

drtanner wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 9:04 am
D&C 59:3 Yea, blessed are they whose feet stand upon the land of Zion, who have obeyed my gospel; for they shall receive for their reward the good things of the earth, and it shall bring forth in its strength.
4 And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me.
What is a commandment not a few? Elder David A. Bednar described these personal commandments this way:

. . . it is an even greater thing to receive and respond to the individual, private, and personally revealed commandments that result from continual and faithful obedience.

. . . The individual and personal “commandments not a few” we receive frequently tend to focus upon the good things we can and should do to develop and deepen our discipleship.


What qualifies us for these commandments not a few? Do the saints ever focus to much on a commandment or sacrifice rather than on obedience and miss valuable opportunities to be blessed from on high?
I covered those verses (D&C 59:3-4) in one of my Gospel Doctrine lessons a few weeks ago. It is helpful to remember that the original name of the set of scriptures we call the Doctrine and Covenants was "Book of Commandments." It is a good thing to receive commandments, and not just a few of them. Seneca once said: "Most powerful is he who has himself in his power." Since, ultimately, obedience is a personal matter, or a matter of agency, we know that humbly accepting the commandments and applying them to our own life will make us powerful instruments in the Lord's hands. We thereby avoid the condemnation found near the end of Section 121.

Serragon
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by Serragon »

On the same note as what Silver was saying about commandments. The early saints called all of the revelations received by Joseph commandments, even if their was no specific instructions for them to do something.

Verse 59:4 should probably be understood as revelations from God (most of which will contain some command or instruction). This verse is listing the rewards for being obedient.

Silver
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by Silver »

Serragon wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 12:46 pm On the same note as what Silver was saying about commandments. The early saints called all of the revelations received by Joseph commandments, even if their was no specific instructions for them to do something.

Verse 59:4 should probably be understood as revelations from God (most of which will contain some command or instruction). This verse is listing the rewards for being obedient.
Good point. In every revelation there should be the implied commandment of "pay attention, the Lord is speaking, you might just learn something."

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oneClimbs
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by oneClimbs »

drtanner wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 8:02 am Let's assume the rich young man who was asked to sell everything and give to the poor by Jesus had already lost everything because it was taken by the government or in an economic downturn and then approached the lord asking "what lack I yet?" What would be the greater test in that moment of his agency / obedience? Sell everything you have and give to the poor or start over and accumulate wealth and use it to provide for those who will help spread my word or help build a house of worship? Does the lord ever alter his commandments to test obedience or accomplish his work?

Are the commandments always unilateral Or are they based on the circumstance on the individual to maximize the test of agency and obedience?

Is the commandment to kill unilateral or circumstantial? The commandment to have one wife? The commandment with what to do with ones money?

Is mortality really about the commandment or is it about obedience?

Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
These are all excellent things to ponder, the paradoxes of life. I believe that principles are universal and eternal in nature and commandments are going to be based on those principles. We could say that some commandments appear to be more fluid and circumstantial. We are no longer commanded to practice the law of Moses and we have not been commanded to gather to a certain central location. I have not been commanded to smite of the head of a wicked man, but Nephi was. I have not been commanded to build a ship or call a particular city to repentance.

A commandment is an order from God. He is the commander and if he will raise up a people, he will command them (Jacob 2:30). His work is as vast as the cosmos and as small as your upset stomach. It consists of your relationship with your next door neighbor and the quorum of the twelve apostles. Depending on the time, the people, and the circumstance, God will command.

Indeed, your quotation of Abraham 3:25 is a great reference and I'd like to add Abraham 4:18 to go along with it: "And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed."

God issues commands and when intelligence is intelligent enough to obey, the work goes forward. When we disobey, "the Gods" watch and wait. If I may add one other thing. I'd like to propose an answer to your question, "Is mortality really about the commandment or is it about obedience?" I believe the answer is, "Mortality is about honor."

Consider D&C 29:36: "And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power;"

The Webster's 1828 dictionary defines "honor" as: "Reverence; veneration; or any act by which reverence and submission are expressed, as worship paid to the Supreme Being."

God works by persuasion. Honor is not a blind and fearful obedience, it is an awake and understanding veneration. It submits humbly to a higher wisdom and a higher power. Herein is God's power, the honor in which intelligence directs to him in the form of their obedience to his commands. The existence of the universe is an ongoing conversation.

I'll close with this excerpt from Kevin Christensen's "A Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience": "Drawing on works by Martin Buber, Ian Barbour suggests that an interpersonal relationship with Deity can be seen as ― One understands oneself to be addressed through events. . . . A person replies through the speech of his life; he answers with his actions. Events in daily life can be interpreted as a dialogue with God."

I think the truth of all this is self-evident. Conceptually it seems sound and personal experience confirms it at least in my own life.

Finrock
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Re: Commandments vs Obedience

Post by Finrock »

3 Nephi 12 wrote:20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
These are words that came directly out of the mouth of the Lamb or out of the mouth of Christ. Surely we cannot be saved except we shall keep the commandments which He commanded us to keep at the moment that He is addressing us.

I think a good place to look to know which commandments we need to obey, is 3 Nephi 12. I think we need to take Christ at His word and obey the things that He spoke during that time, exactly as He spoke them. Otherwise, if Christ's words are true, we cannot be saved.
1 Nephi 13 wrote:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
So, this identifies one other place where we can find commandments that were spoken directly out of the mouth of Christ. Book of Mormon is one and it seems like the New Testament is the other.

The commandments found in the "Sermon on the Mount" was taught by Christ to both people's, the Nephites and the Jews. The Sermon to the Nephites, in the Book of Mormon, establishes the Sermon on the Mount to the Jews. The Sermon to the Nephites also makes know the plain and precious things which have been taken away from the record found in the New Testament. It also shows things that have been added since Jesus gave the Sermon as it is recorded in the KJV of the New Testament.

If we believe nothing else, then I think we should at least recognize that these commandments of Jesus Christ are recorded in both records and because of these two witnesses of these commandments, we should give them great heed and priority. I think we should begin our desires to obey God's commandments by obeying these words that have been spoken out of His mouth and believe when He says that we can't be saved unless we keep the commandments that He spoke at that time.

-Finrock

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