Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

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gclayjr
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by gclayjr »

Captainfearnot said,
It's certainly useful to learn the difference between a well reasoned argument and a cognitively manipulative one, but as we've been over already in this thread, it's not the be-all end-all.
I graduated from college long before "Critical thinking" became in vogue. While I believe that I have a good sense for when someone is using rhetorical devices or as you might say cognitively manipulative ones to make arguments for something which I know to be wrong, this discussion has made me ponder a possible new view on this.

I assume that when people use rhetorical or cognitively manipulative devices to support, say a heretical position in relation to God and truth, that they are generally being deliberately deceptive to either cover a discovered hole in their position, or maybe worse, to persuade someone away from the true gospel of Christ.

While I have seen times when I believe that someone is completely clueless as to the incoherence of their argument, or their attempt at cognitive manipulation of a train of thought, I generally believe it to be a sly deception. Am I wrong?

I guess my question is, when someone uses rhetorical or cognitive manipulation to support the unsupportable, how often is that a sly manipulation, and how often is the person actually clueless to their own incoherent logic?


Regards,

George Clay

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marc
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by marc »

eddie wrote: June 22nd, 2017, 11:07 pm Marc, I apologize, please forgive me for thinking I have the answers when I didn't understand the circumstances.

Those sweet children had a greater degree of difficulty, and my heart hurts for them. Prenatal alcohol or drugs could have been a factor, who knows. they are children of God, and you respectfully treated them as such. You are a hero in my eyes!
No worries. Yes, prenatal alcohol was a factor in their lives. One of them was born a crack baby. They have the same mother, but different fathers, they were neglected during their childhood, locked in their rooms so their mother could get high. Their aunts and uncles and grandparents were in and out of jail. Hard liquor, drugs and pornography were all part of their upbringing. All siblings were taken by the state and put into foster care. I don't know how many children their mother has given birth to through today, but it seems that is how she gets help from the state. Anyway, thank you for your kind words.

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gclayjr
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by gclayjr »

marc,

My sister, a licensed nurse practitioner, with her husband in their later years, adopted a girl that was in foster care, who was the daughter of a single woman with serious crack and other drug problems. This girl has been extremely difficult, manipulative, and has done much to create tension between my sister and her husband and great stress on their family.

I suppose that there is some joy in giving love to those who act so unlovable. Probably better her, and you, than me. I admire it.

It does however, beg the question, nature, nurture, or self determination. Glad I don't have to be the judge.

Regards,

George Clay

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marc
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by marc »

George, maybe its' a little of each. In any case, it's an opportunity to learn to be like Jesus, infinitely patient, longsuffering, etc. I forgot to mention that one of my boys (the one currently in prison) did have soft moments. He was baptized at 12, was sealed to us in the temple and tried briefly before deciding that isn't what he wanted. His older half brother was baptized about age 15 or 16, the week after he was jumped in the park and had his faced smashed by a baseball bat from someone who jumped from behind. Luckily he's a big kid with a head made of steel. His face was like the elephant man for the baptism picture, but he's really tough. He was always picked on because, ironically he's big and was the "mountain to conquer" at school. He was persuaded to join the football team by the coach, which he tried briefly, but it didn't last. Today he's about 6'4 or 6'5. I think the Lord will have mercy in light of the conditions such children are born into every day.

diligently seeking
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by diligently seeking »

marc wrote: June 20th, 2017, 5:08 pm
If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed. --President J. Reuben Clark
I have observed from scripture that prophets (and even Jesus) never needed defending. Such witnesses and messengers are by nature (new creatures having been sanctified) meek, patient, kind, charitable and longsuffering, capable of turning the other cheek when attacked. They suffer the will of the Lord unto the mocking of fools and persecuting of evildoers. They are able to persuade and never resort to control or compulsion. Truth cuts its own way and those who have received the Holy Ghost and have taken It for their guide do not need to fear truth.

The Prophet Joseph taught,
“We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.”--Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, vol. 14, #38, p 593-595
If one is to become as God, one must learn to know God's will by the Holy Ghost. One must become one with God so as to become one with each other. Prophets do not render the Holy Ghost obsolete, but the Holy Ghost bears witness of truth. The only reason to have "official interpretations" of doctrine or of the scriptures is to make it so that those who don't have the Holy Ghost can understand the scriptures, but the things of God can only be understood by the Holy Ghost so if the interpretations are understandable without the Holy Ghost, they are not of God and if they are of God, then they don't solve the problem for which they were supposedly produced, ie, to make the scriptures understandable by those who don't have the Holy Ghost. Therefore, if one does not have the Holy Ghost anyway, truth is not efficacious in his life and he has harmed himself because of ignorance. Therefore in no case is any official interpretation justified (for any good reason, anyway) and the real reason for such interpretations is to enforce or at least impose conformity (speaking of manipulative techniques).

Nephi admonished his brothers to inquire of the Lord, but they would not. Nephi was then left to expound his father's dreams (of which He obtained interpretations directly from God) to them, which were not efficacious in their lives anyway. So there is no need to protect the ignorant who will not seek the Lord but are content to be informed even if they are informed correctly without the Holy Ghost.
D&C 45:56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
Follow the prophet if you will, but if you do not seek the Lord and take His Spirit for your guide, it is folly.
A clear understanding and living reality for a person with the above expressions from Marc and those he quotes are the heartfelt longing desires of every true Prophet. 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Let's not let anything stop us from receiving the Holy Spirit and the truth and freedom etc we receive as we do. Powerful post Marc. One of the better ones ever by estimation in the storied history of this forum! And there are some gems on this forum...

diligently seeking
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by diligently seeking »

Mosiah 4
1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them.
2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.
3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.
4 And king Benjamin again...

...And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.


Mosiah 5:
And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them.
2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.
3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.
4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.
5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.
6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.
10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.
11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts.
12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.
13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?
14 And again, doth a man take an @#$ which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called.
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

eddie
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by eddie »

marc wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 6:53 am George, maybe its' a little of each. In any case, it's an opportunity to learn to be like Jesus, infinitely patient, longsuffering, etc. I forgot to mention that one of my boys (the one currently in prison) did have soft moments. He was baptized at 12, was sealed to us in the temple and tried briefly before deciding that isn't what he wanted. His older half brother was baptized about age 15 or 16, the week after he was jumped in the park and had his faced smashed by a baseball bat from someone who jumped from behind. Luckily he's a big kid with a head made of steel. His face was like the elephant man for the baptism picture, but he's really tough. He was always picked on because, ironically he's big and was the "mountain to conquer" at school. He was persuaded to join the football team by the coach, which he tried briefly, but it didn't last. Today he's about 6'4 or 6'5. I think the Lord will have mercy in light of the conditions such children are born into every day.
We can't understand how merciful the Lord will be, if you had to judge one of your children that you love so much, think about the mercy you would have for them. I laid on my bed one day wracked with grief over a decision one of my children made, I thought about how much Heavenly Father loves His children and I was experiencing a part of it.

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brlenox
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by brlenox »

gclayjr wrote: June 23rd, 2017, 5:42 am Captainfearnot said,
It's certainly useful to learn the difference between a well reasoned argument and a cognitively manipulative one, but as we've been over already in this thread, it's not the be-all end-all.
I graduated from college long before "Critical thinking" became in vogue. While I believe that I have a good sense for when someone is using rhetorical devices or as you might say cognitively manipulative ones to make arguments for something which I know to be wrong, this discussion has made me ponder a possible new view on this.

I assume that when people use rhetorical or cognitively manipulative devices to support, say a heretical position in relation to God and truth, that they are generally being deliberately deceptive to either cover a discovered hole in their position, or maybe worse, to persuade someone away from the true gospel of Christ.

While I have seen times when I believe that someone is completely clueless as to the incoherence of their argument, or their attempt at cognitive manipulation of a train of thought, I generally believe it to be a sly deception. Am I wrong?

I guess my question is, when someone uses rhetorical or cognitive manipulation to support the unsupportable, how often is that a sly manipulation, and how often is the person actually clueless to their own incoherent logic?


Regards,

George Clay
I do not think you are wrong but I cannot say that I always consider the effort of those who depend on critical thinking devices to manipulate their messages do so with understanding. The glory of the critical thinking process is not that it teaches critical thinking, but is instead that it plants seeds of doubt. The seeds do not depend on retaining an ounce of the critical thinking material as most people do not but the seeds, like so many dandelion weeds, germinate and grow.

Nonetheless, I also feel that certain mindsets are drawn to certain devices simply from a sense of affinity. Dishonest people use tools of dishonesty because the tools support their natural tendencies to distort truth. I have never, ever heard, that I can recall a use of these tools by someone to negate elements of the conversation when they were sustaining correct principles. It has always been those who wish to shut down opposition to an errant doctrine or something that should be vehemently discounted who want to remove all oppositional efforts by citing a widely accepted and familiar intellectual tool. Or to state it another way, it is those who wish to change accepted norms of understanding into a different form of understanding. When a message lacks the authority of truth then it must draw authority from other venues to be sustained.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by Rose Garden »

I think the heart of the problem is the hypocrisy inherent in this world. I believe those teaching "critical thinking" aren't teaching critical thinking at all. They are teaching narrow-mindedness and calling it critical thinking. And so people are trained to believe that when they are being narrow-minded and judgmental, they are being objective and open-minded.

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Re: Critical Thinking, logical fallacies and other manipulative techniques.

Post by larsenb »

Jon Rappoport outlines manipulative techniques that are currently rampant among MSM outlets. One technique he doesn't directly mention is how they use fake polls to discount a particular viewpoint by showing how it is allegedly unsupported, or to entrain people to accept a view because, well, everybody is for it.

Here is the extract from his article, Ten forms of fake news used by major media, found here: https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2017 ... r-media-2/
Ten forms of fake news used by major media

By Jon Rappoport

The basic purpose of these ten forms: the presentation of a false picture of reality.

You could find more forms, or divide these ten into sub-categories.

The ten basic forms are:

Direct lying about matters of fact. (This sometimes includes doubling down on lies already told, or telling a bigger lie after the first one.)

Leaving out vital information.

Limited hangout. (This is an admission of a crime or a mistake, which only partially reveals the whole truth. The idea is that by admitting a fraction of what really happened and burying the biggest revelations, people will be satisfied and go away, and the story will never be covered again.)

Shutting down the truth after publishing it---includes failing to follow up and investigate a story more deeply.

Not connecting dots between important pieces of data.

Censoring the truth, wherever it is found (or calling it "fake news").

Using biased "experts" to present slanted or false "facts."

Repeating a false story many times---this includes the echo-chamber effect, in which a number of outlets "bounce" the false story among themselves.

Claiming a reasonable and true consensus exists, when it doesn't, when there are many important dissenters, who are shut out from offering their analysis.

Employing a panoply of effects (reputation of the media outlet, voice quality of the anchor, acting skills, dry mechanical language, studio lighting, overlay of electronic transmissions, etc.) to create an impression of elevated authority which is beyond challenge.

These are all traditional forms and methods.

Here's an example of a big story that deployed all ten forms of fake news: the Swine Flu pandemic of 2009.

In the spring of 2009, the World Health Organization (elevated authority whose pronouncements are beyond challenge) announced that Swine Flu was a level-6 pandemic---its highest category of "danger." In fact, there were only 20 confirmed cases at the time (direct lying about "danger"). And W.H.O. quietly changed the definition of "level-6" so widespread death and damage were no longer required (another aspect of direct lying).

The story was, of course, picked up by major media outlets all over the world (echo chamber effect, fake consensus, never connected dots re W.H.O. lies), and quite soon, Swine Flu case numbers rose into the thousands (direct lying, as we'll soon see).

Medical experts were brought in to bolster the claims of danger (biased experts; important dissenters never given space to comment).

In the early fall of 2009, Sharyl Attkisson, then a star investigative reporter for CBS News, published a story on the CBS News website. She indicated that the CDC had secretly stopped counting the number of Swine Flu cases in America. No other major news outlet reported this fact (omitting vital information).

Attkisson discovered the reason the CDC had stopped counting: the overwhelming number of blood samples taken from the most likely Swine Flu patients were coming back from labs with: no trace of Swine Flu or any other kind of flu. Therefore, a gigantic hoax was revealed. The pandemic was a dud, a fake.

Despite Attkisson's efforts, CBS never followed up on her story (shutting down the truth after exposing it). Never probed the lying by the CDC (failure to connect dots). In a sense, CBS turned Attkisson's story into a limited hangout---a further investigation would have uncovered acres of criminal behavior by both the CDC and the World Health Organization, to say nothing of the governments and media outlets that supported these lying agencies. The mainstream press essentially censored Attkisson's revelations.

Then, about three weeks after CBS published Attkisson's story, WebMD published a piece in which the CDC claimed that its own (lying) estimate of 10,000 or so cases of Swine Flu in the US was a gross understatement. Truly, there were 22 MILLION cases of Swine Flu in the US (doubling-down on lying).

And that was that.

And these mainstream sources are currently shouting and bloviating about independent media spreading fake news. I guess you could call that number 11: accusing their opponents of committing the crimes they are, in fact, committing [this is called 'projection']

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