Your personal interpretation of church doctrine is non-binding on the rest of the church. :-wElizabeth wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 12:51 pm Yes, and in the case of LDS leaders who set an example to others who follow, which is a grave responsibility in itself... their choice to partake of any substance detrimental to the body and which is addictive, also undermines the faith others have in what they teach.
Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
- mirkwood
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
The WOW is very much subject to interpretation; there is even a thread here that presents an interpretation where it states opposite to the popular interpretation about eating grains, etc.mirkwood wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 1:55 pmYour personal interpretation of church doctrine is non-binding on the rest of the church. :-wElizabeth wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 12:51 pm Yes, and in the case of LDS leaders who set an example to others who follow, which is a grave responsibility in itself... their choice to partake of any substance detrimental to the body and which is addictive, also undermines the faith others have in what they teach.
By their fruits, you shall know them; this applied to members of the military means if you fat, you're not fit for service. :((
Oldest dude wins is another technique well employed. All things in moderation works for the most part with a few exceptions.
Firsthand I've felt this over emphasis by some well meaning person with a BMI obviously exceeding optimum. :))
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
The amount of caffeine isn't on the label, so how do you know?Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 1:02 pmMaybe I was too vague. I was referring to members of the church who feel that, based on their personal study, revelation, insights, their interpretation of words of leaders past and present, etc, partaking of caffeine is a sin or against the Word of Wisdom and take it upon themselves to criticize others who do not feel the same. My issue with the debate is treating something personal as commandment and holding everyone else accountable to it. I can't understand why people get so bent out of shape.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:38 amEnergy drinks are sold to children without even having to disclose the quantity of caffeine or other harmful ingredients.Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:20 am Those who choose to consume caffeinated drinks do not seem to care that others choose not to. Why do some who choose not to drink them care so much that some do? Why agonize over something that doesn't affect your own salvation?
Why not prevent sale to minors.
To answer your question: Sale to minors could be prevented, I guess. However, I feel it more important as a parent to teach my children, talk about what we put in our bodies, and when appropriate, allow them to use agency to decide for themselves, all while following the promptings of the Holy Sprit. As parents, we are accountable for teaching our Father's children how to know truth- how to pray, how to study things out, how to learn of Him, and how to make good choices. We are to teach them about agency. If we succeed in this, and minors purchasing energy drinks is bad, then they will know it and use their agency to not partake. Or maybe they won't... But at least they will understand the principle of agency, which is really why we are here in the first place.
Also kids often buy stuff without any parent around, and many have parents that are less than optimal.
... the manual states: “Leaders teach correct principles and help those they lead learn to govern themselves” (Ibid.). https://1eternalround.blogspot.com/2017 ... s-and.html
It is our choice and decision what is best for us and the only things clearly prohibited are alcohol and tobacco.
By their fruits you will know them applies to actions too.
1. When You Give Up Carbs...You Start Burning Fat
2. When You Give Up Carbs...You Feel Less Hungry
3. When You Give Up Carbs...Your Belly Gets Flatter
4. When You Give Up Carbs...You Slash Your Risk of Diabetes
5. When You Give Up Carbs...Your Muscles Get Stronger
6. When You Give Up Carbs...You Feel More Energized
http://time.com/4021985/simple-carbohydrates/
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
My Dad have up carbs and lost a ton of weight but boy was he lethargic! If you choose to give them up that's fantastic! But I don't know if I could live in a world without cake, cookies, donuts... All of the good stuff has carbs!!BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 8:28 pmThe amount of caffeine isn't on the label, so how do you know?Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 1:02 pmMaybe I was too vague. I was referring to members of the church who feel that, based on their personal study, revelation, insights, their interpretation of words of leaders past and present, etc, partaking of caffeine is a sin or against the Word of Wisdom and take it upon themselves to criticize others who do not feel the same. My issue with the debate is treating something personal as commandment and holding everyone else accountable to it. I can't understand why people get so bent out of shape.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:38 amEnergy drinks are sold to children without even having to disclose the quantity of caffeine or other harmful ingredients.Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:20 am Those who choose to consume caffeinated drinks do not seem to care that others choose not to. Why do some who choose not to drink them care so much that some do? Why agonize over something that doesn't affect your own salvation?
Why not prevent sale to minors.
To answer your question: Sale to minors could be prevented, I guess. However, I feel it more important as a parent to teach my children, talk about what we put in our bodies, and when appropriate, allow them to use agency to decide for themselves, all while following the promptings of the Holy Sprit. As parents, we are accountable for teaching our Father's children how to know truth- how to pray, how to study things out, how to learn of Him, and how to make good choices. We are to teach them about agency. If we succeed in this, and minors purchasing energy drinks is bad, then they will know it and use their agency to not partake. Or maybe they won't... But at least they will understand the principle of agency, which is really why we are here in the first place.
How do I know what? If something is bad for my child? By "following the promptings of the Holy Spirit" and good sense.
Or how much caffeine something contains? As far as I can tell (I don't drink energy drinks and rarely soda of any kind as I prefer to ingest my sugar in ice cream) most things actually do have it on the label- if not,
Google. But I don't really care to know. My kids are quite energetic as it is. They certainly do not need help!
Also kids often buy stuff without any parent around, and many have parents that are less than optimal.
True. Do you propose carding them?
... the manual states: “Leaders teach correct principles and help those they lead learn to govern themselves” (Ibid.). https://1eternalround.blogspot.com/2017 ... s-and.html
It is our choice and decision what is best for us and the only things clearly prohibited are alcohol and tobacco.
I've read plenty of posts on here to know not to open that can of worms, ha ha.
By their fruits you will know them applies to actions too.
Actions as well as words, right? Agreed.
1. When You Give Up Carbs...You Start Burning Fat
2. When You Give Up Carbs...You Feel Less Hungry
3. When You Give Up Carbs...Your Belly Gets Flatter
4. When You Give Up Carbs...You Slash Your Risk of Diabetes
5. When You Give Up Carbs...Your Muscles Get Stronger
6. When You Give Up Carbs...You Feel More Energized
http://time.com/4021985/simple-carbohydrates/
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
Your answer only addressed you and your kids at the current time, hardly a way to optimize public policy for everyone.Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:46 pm
The amount of caffeine isn't on the label; how do you know?
How do I know what? If something is bad for my child? By "following the promptings of the Holy Spirit" and good sense.
Or how much caffeine something contains? As far as I can tell (I don't drink energy drinks and rarely soda of any kind as I prefer to ingest my sugar in ice cream) most things actually do have it on the label- if not, Google. But I don't really care to know. My kids are quite energetic as it is. They certainly do not need help!
Also kids often buy stuff without any parent around, and many have parents that are less than optimal.
True. Do you propose carding them?
Yes, beyond a certain mass/volume, which now is impossible to know due to lack of labeling. Kids can't buy other detrimental substances, why not caffeine?
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
This is such a typical Mormon Pharisee diversion tactic. Make a big deal about something which has no significance whatsoever, pick on a specific brand name - Coca Cola - while ignoring all of the many other caffeinated drinks - Mountain Dew being far worse than Coke. Don't mention the real problem and actual violation of the Word of Wisdom which is the vast consumption of MEAT and the slaughter of literally billions of animals every year in direct disobedience to the instruction of God.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
Personally, I rarely if ever eat meat. I endeavour to be aware of the ingredients of everything I consume, and choose only that which seems to be as healthy as it is possible to be and in minimal proportions. I also avoid medical procedures and prescriptions if possible.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
"With the appearance of cola drinks in the early 1900s, the Church was confronted with cold beverages containing caffeine, a harmful substance believed to make coffee and tea unacceptable. While no official Church position has been stated, leaders have counselled members to avoid caffeine and other addictive chemicals.
Church leaders universally caution against any use of such drugs as marijuana and cocaine and the abuse of prescription drugs. While none of these substances are mentioned specifically in the Word of Wisdom, the concept of the sanctity of the body and the deleterious effects of chemical substances on it have been emphasised as an extension of the Word of Wisdom."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Word_of_Wisdom
Church leaders universally caution against any use of such drugs as marijuana and cocaine and the abuse of prescription drugs. While none of these substances are mentioned specifically in the Word of Wisdom, the concept of the sanctity of the body and the deleterious effects of chemical substances on it have been emphasised as an extension of the Word of Wisdom."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Word_of_Wisdom
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
...and they serve soda in the temple. Imagine that...
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... m?lang=eng
"It is not necessary to be commanded in all things. With the guidelines the Lord has given in this revelation, we should have little difficulty in determining both what and how much we can wisely eat.
“In another revelation (Sec. 59) we are told they are not to be used ‘to excess, neither by extortion.’ The difficulty with most of the human family, is eating too much, and failing to heed his counsel. There would be less disease and mankind would live longer if all would also heed the counsel of the Lord concerning the use of wholesome foods.”
"It is not necessary to be commanded in all things. With the guidelines the Lord has given in this revelation, we should have little difficulty in determining both what and how much we can wisely eat.
“In another revelation (Sec. 59) we are told they are not to be used ‘to excess, neither by extortion.’ The difficulty with most of the human family, is eating too much, and failing to heed his counsel. There would be less disease and mankind would live longer if all would also heed the counsel of the Lord concerning the use of wholesome foods.”
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
There is something interesting about the "It won't keep you out of heaven or the Celestial Kingdom" excuse that really bothers me.
We hear it brought out anytime someone wants to justify a behavior that is questionable (hence the controversy) but hasn't been strictly forbidden by way of command by proper authority.
I'm always led to think a few things.
1. It is not meet that we are commanded in all things.
2. It is usually controversial because we have been given enough guidance by proper authority to know that the behavior is certainly not endorsed, if not strictly prohibited.
3. How do you know it won't keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom? Granted, I doubt you'll stand before the judgement bar and hear "If it wasn't for all that soda you drank you'd be welcome here." Or "we just can't let a caffeine drinker/R-rated movie watcher/"purple shirt to pass the sacrament person"in here. "
I think it has more to do with our hearts and becoming. Kind of like Pride Parades. We all have weaknesses, maybe yours is drinking too much caffeine, or indulging in inappropriate media, or just not wanting to conform to social expectations that aren't really unreasonable and hold symbolic meaning for many you purport to be serving. But to flaunt it and try to convert others is where such an activity may trip you up and stunt your growth or lead you off on a strange path. Sure, we can refrain from making final judgements based on such behavior, about ourselves and others, as long as we are working on becoming better, recognize our weakness, and try to understand and live by the Letter and the Spirit of the Law.
We hear it brought out anytime someone wants to justify a behavior that is questionable (hence the controversy) but hasn't been strictly forbidden by way of command by proper authority.
I'm always led to think a few things.
1. It is not meet that we are commanded in all things.
2. It is usually controversial because we have been given enough guidance by proper authority to know that the behavior is certainly not endorsed, if not strictly prohibited.
3. How do you know it won't keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom? Granted, I doubt you'll stand before the judgement bar and hear "If it wasn't for all that soda you drank you'd be welcome here." Or "we just can't let a caffeine drinker/R-rated movie watcher/"purple shirt to pass the sacrament person"in here. "
I think it has more to do with our hearts and becoming. Kind of like Pride Parades. We all have weaknesses, maybe yours is drinking too much caffeine, or indulging in inappropriate media, or just not wanting to conform to social expectations that aren't really unreasonable and hold symbolic meaning for many you purport to be serving. But to flaunt it and try to convert others is where such an activity may trip you up and stunt your growth or lead you off on a strange path. Sure, we can refrain from making final judgements based on such behavior, about ourselves and others, as long as we are working on becoming better, recognize our weakness, and try to understand and live by the Letter and the Spirit of the Law.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
I wonder how the church regarded Coca-Cola originally when the "Coca" was actually cocaine.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
How did I find myself in an "optimize public policy for everyone" conversation!?BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑June 26th, 2017, 3:41 pmYour answer only addressed you and your kids at the current time, hardly a way to optimize public policy for everyone.Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:46 pm
The amount of caffeine isn't on the label; how do you know?
How do I know what? If something is bad for my child? By "following the promptings of the Holy Spirit" and good sense.
Or how much caffeine something contains? As far as I can tell (I don't drink energy drinks and rarely soda of any kind as I prefer to ingest my sugar in ice cream) most things actually do have it on the label- if not, Google. But I don't really care to know. My kids are quite energetic as it is. They certainly do not need help!
Also kids often buy stuff without any parent around, and many have parents that are less than optimal.
True. Do you propose carding them?
Yes, beyond a certain mass/volume, which now is impossible to know due to lack of labeling. Kids can't buy other detrimental substances, why not caffeine?
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
Wonderful parable. I've often wondered if the wheat and tares know that they are such.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
I think there are going to be a lot of really surprised LDS when they get to the other side and see who in their ward did and did not "make it."
I've never understood the LDS who strain at gnats with such fierceness.
If this quote was in the context that Elizabeth is trying to force it (round hole meet square peg), I guarantee there would be no soda offered in the temples.
I've never understood the LDS who strain at gnats with such fierceness.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
There it is! I was wondering when the "straining at gnats" would finally be brought up.mirkwood wrote: ↑June 27th, 2017, 4:55 pm I think there are going to be a lot of really surprised LDS when they get to the other side and see who in their ward did and did not "make it."
If this quote was in the context that Elizabeth is trying to force it (round hole meet square peg), I guarantee there would be no soda offered in the temples.
I've never understood the LDS who strain at gnats with such fierceness.
It is only a sin to strain at gnats if one is also swallowing camels.
I have quite a few things I have been accused of "straining at gnats" for. Funny thing, they are all things the Lord has commanded me to do, found in scripture or modern prophecy, in direct response to questions and needs I placed before the Lord. And as strange or small as they sound to many, most have resulted in the desired petition: to have the health to bare more children. Not a small thing to me.
Strangely, many woman suffer from the same fertility issues, caused by our modern life and exposures, with answers found in modern and ancient scripture, who won't accept the "easiness" of the way because it seems like straining at gnats.
I can testify, by small and simple things at great things brought to pass. A correct understanding of the Word of Wisdom and Law of Moses have literally healed me and allowed me a posterity I could not otherwise have. These may look like gnats, but I assure you, and the Lord has said, never at any time has he given a command that was temporal, they are all for our spiritual benefit.
As for me, I never understood the LDS who say "
"Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; "
As for soda in temples, what a silly guarantee. If your guarantee had merit, why would we ever expect tares to be allowed to grow among the wheat? Why would the Lord allow it? Wouldn't he just remove the temptation entirely? Perhaps agency applies everywhere, even at the temple.
- mirkwood
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
So can I.
As for soda in temples, what a silly guarantee. If your guarantee had merit, why would we ever expect tares to be allowed to grow among the wheat? Why would the Lord allow it? Wouldn't he just remove the temptation entirely? Perhaps agency applies everywhere, even at the temple.
So is President Monson a tare? He drinks soda.
I think the real problem is some people have developed their own belief system and have found those things contrary to what is being taught. Then they say things like Elizabeth did earlier where she begins to question if everything else in the church is a sham because members of the First Presidency and Q12 have/are soda drinkers. I think someone who goes down that path probably should re-evaluate their personal opinions and stop defining them as church doctrine when they are not.
- mirkwood
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
I've used that phrase already. Maybe it was in this thread, I don't remember.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
No, you totally missed the point of my analogy. I don't actually care if you drink soda, or any of the other points I mentioned. Sorry I took the time to engage with you. Good luck to you.mirkwood wrote: ↑June 27th, 2017, 6:05 pmSo can I.
As for soda in temples, what a silly guarantee. If your guarantee had merit, why would we ever expect tares to be allowed to grow among the wheat? Why would the Lord allow it? Wouldn't he just remove the temptation entirely? Perhaps agency applies everywhere, even at the temple.
So is President Monson a tare? He drinks soda.
I think the real problem is some people have developed their own belief system and have found those things contrary to what is being taught. Then they say things like Elizabeth did earlier where she begins to question if everything else in the church is a sham because members of the First Presidency and Q12 have/are soda drinkers. I think someone who goes down that path probably should re-evaluate their personal opinions and stop defining them as church doctrine when they are not.
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Re: Coca-Cola arrives at LDS Business College, but BYU stays on no-caffeine wagon
Labeling laws are the result of public policy. :-\Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 27th, 2017, 11:51 amHow did I find myself in an "optimize public policy for everyone" conversation!?BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑June 26th, 2017, 3:41 pmYour answer only addressed you and your kids at the current time, hardly a way to optimize public policy for everyone.Irrelevant wrote: ↑June 24th, 2017, 9:46 pm
The amount of caffeine isn't on the label; how do you know?
How do I know what? If something is bad for my child? By "following the promptings of the Holy Spirit" and good sense.
Or how much caffeine something contains? As far as I can tell (I don't drink energy drinks and rarely soda of any kind as I prefer to ingest my sugar in ice cream) most things actually do have it on the label- if not, Google. But I don't really care to know. My kids are quite energetic as it is. They certainly do not need help!
Also kids often buy stuff without any parent around, and many have parents that are less than optimal.
True. Do you propose carding them?
Yes, beyond a certain mass/volume, which now is impossible to know due to lack of labeling. Kids can't buy other detrimental substances, why not caffeine?
Meanwhile advertisers spend millions of dollars to dupe children to do the dew.
Maybe dew represents the maximum dosage allowed, any higher dose is deemed a dewn't and not sold to minors. Energy Drinks, Jolt and others sodas clearly exceed what's ok for a child to consume without a parents consent. Excise tax all harmful substances to the extent that they are harmful and use the funds collected to remedy the damages resulting from their consumption, to subsidize healthcare, public transpo and other legitimate purposes.
Win-win encourages good choices to prevent problems, rather than attempt costly cures.
Also incentivizes innovation of healthy food choices.