Further Light and Knowledge

[captainfearnot]

In the endowment ceremony, we're taught that Adam doesn't take people at their word when they claim to be messengers of God. He requests verification, and it is granted.

I have a friend who is an IT professional and tends to see things through that lens, and noticed that this and other parts of the ceremony remind him a lot of SSL authentication. And so he has set up a similar authentication process for revelation.

In short, he has given God a code, and whenever God wants to relay information to him by way of a messenger, he will ask that messenger to authenticate himself by providing the code.

Something about this seems wrong to me, but I can't quite put my finger on what. Maybe he has the right idea?

[Mcox]

Your friend is off his rocker. God speaks to us through the Holy Ghost/prayer. He also speaks to us through His prophets. Special codes are secret combinations. This guy is heading towards Apostacy if he isn't there already.

[Serragon]

If you take the signs and token as literal actions that must or will be given at some point to enter the celestial kingdom, then I think what your friend is doing makes some sense.

If you understand them to be symbolic, then he is going down the wrong path.

I believe the tokens represent the full scope of the light, knowledge, and priesthood revealed to a people. So instead of looking for a literal token from a messenger, I would look for them to be preaching a message consistent with that scope.

[Finrock]

Your friend is off his rocker. God speaks to us through the Holy Ghost/prayer. He also speaks to us through His prophets. Special codes are secret combinations. This guy is heading towards Apostacy if he isn't there already.

Prophets are only prophets if they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. No man is the source of truth, they only act as mediums as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit. So, "scripture" are those things that have been spoken by the Holy Ghost and true prophets speak by the power of the Holy Ghost or they are not true prophets or they are not speaking God's will to us.

-Finrock

[Alaris]

In the endowment ceremony, we're taught that Adam doesn't take people at their word when they claim to be messengers of God. He requests verification, and it is granted.

I have a friend who is an IT professional and tends to see things through that lens, and noticed that this and other parts of the ceremony remind him a lot of SSL authentication. And so he has set up a similar authentication process for revelation.

In short, he has given God a code, and whenever God wants to relay information to him by way of a messenger, he will ask that messenger to authenticate himself by providing the code.

Something about this seems wrong to me, but I can't quite put my finger on what. Maybe he has the right idea?

Being in the IT Field I find this quite hilarious and brilliant! Although it seems if this were an acceptable or even a smart protocol then it would be in the scriptures somewhere. Has your friend had and luck? PM if you prefer.

[captainfearnot]

Honestly, I think he intended it as a means to thwart the busybodies in his life that sometimes claim to have received revelation on his behalf. He obviously sustains the Brethren as true messengers, but sometimes a bishop or overbearing parent will overplay their hand, and this is just a way of reminding himself (and possibly them) that they are most likely not responding to divine revelation (which conveniently always coincides with something they would very much like him to do).

[LDS Physician]

The error in his way is summarized by your statement "he has given God a code".

I don't think we can dictate to God a pattern that we require to recognize truth or any other instructions.

God has already given us a pattern by which we can recognize truth.

[Jonesy]

Has a messenger ever authenticated the code to him?

[Alaris]

The error in his way is summarized by your statement "he has given God a code".

I don't think we can dictate to God a pattern that we require to recognize truth or any other instructions.

God has already given us a pattern by which we can recognize truth.

I still find this quite funny. This sounds like the typical IT personality mixed with humor and mormonism. I may "borrow" this, not seriously of course!

Someone: "You shouldn't do that."

Me: "Did God give you the code?"

Someone: "What code?"

Me: "Get thee hence!"

[Finrock]

I think we can talk to God as one man talks to another. I think God will reason together with each of us. I think He will listen to your suggestions and has no problems accommodating a person's righteous desires. God isn't a dictator and He respects each person and He respects our agency. He has been known to even fulfill the request of His friends even when He initially counsels against it. From what I know of God, He works with His children where they are at in life. Meaning, He customizes how principles are implemented depending on circumstances, knowledge, and other such criteria.

Given these things, I think there is room to negotiate with God and to establish with Him a method by which you may best know when He is sending messengers or not. I don't think the idea itself is inherently wrong.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Given these things, I think there is room to negotiate with God and to establish with Him a method by which you may best know when He is sending messengers or not. I don't think the idea itself is inherently wrong.

Sure looks like seeking a sign to me.

Give me this sign, and I will recognize that this is God's will.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Given these things, I think there is room to negotiate with God and to establish with Him a method by which you may best know when He is sending messengers or not. I don't think the idea itself is inherently wrong.

Sure looks like seeking a sign to me.

Interesting.

-Finrock

[Sunain]

SSL authentication handshake has failed! Did he check to make sure his certificate was up to date and authorized by legit CA and that it hasn't been revoked!? =))

I can definitely see similarities between SSL authentication and those parts of the temple ceremony as well how we obtain a temple recommend. They are both security handshakes.

The process for personal revelation does not require security like that though. Pray, thinking things out in our minds, study and other ways are how we receive revelation. The Holy Ghost can confirm messages without us having security authentication. We know when we've received an answer through His spirit.

https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/yw/prop ... e?lang=eng

Honestly, I think he intended it as a means to thwart the busybodies in his life that sometimes claim to have received revelation on his behalf. He obviously sustains the Brethren as true messengers, but sometimes a bishop or overbearing parent will overplay their hand, and this is just a way of reminding himself (and possibly them) that they are most likely not responding to divine revelation (which conveniently always coincides with something they would very much like him to do).

Revelation for others though for a calling by a bishop can be tricky sometimes. I've had callings 'issued' by a bishop that I've turned down for different reasons. I understand that 'revelation' and getting members of the church to do a calling that's not right for them is an issue in the church.

[butterfly]

Revelation can get tricky, especially when you start meeting more people beyond the veil. It's just like here on earth- there are a lot of opinions, but you have to know when something comes from God and when it is just advice from someone without a body.

I think God understands that this can be confusing and, in my experience, there has been no problem with me asking "Did that come from You, God? I'm happy to obey but I need to know that this revelation is actually God-given."

Now would a code actually work? Idk because as soon as 1 messenger gives the code, then more spirits can know what it is and pretty soon it's no longer a secret. But the concept of asking God for a verification process is a good way to learn to accurately differentiate between God's Spirit and other spirits.

[brianj]

I can definitely see similarities between SSL authentication and those parts of the temple ceremony as well how we obtain a temple recommend. They are both security handshakes.

I so wanted to make a comparison to an SSL / TLS handshake, but I didn't feel right about it. Bummer, I thought it was pretty clever!

[Alaris]

Revelation can get tricky, especially when you start meeting more people beyond the veil. It's just like here on earth- there are a lot of opinions, but you have to know when something comes from God and when it is just advice from someone without a body.

I think God understands that this can be confusing and, in my experience, there has been no problem with me asking "Did that come from You, God? I'm happy to obey but I need to know that this revelation is actually God-given."

Now would a code actually work? Idk because as soon as 1 messenger gives the code, then more spirits can know what it is and pretty soon it's no longer a secret. But the concept of asking God for a verification process is a good way to learn to accurately differentiate between God's Spirit and other spirits.

It sounds like two factor authentication is in order! Something they are, something they know, and / or something the possess.

OK what's this week's pass code? OK good now show me the Liahona. O:-)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi- ... ntication

[zionbuilder]

Finrock,

Given these things, I think there is room to negotiate with God and to establish with Him a method by which you may best know when He is sending messengers or not. I don't think the idea itself is inherently wrong.

Sure looks like seeking a sign to me.

Give me this sign, and I will recognize that this is God's will.

Regards,

George Clay

gclayjr, maybe a reading of Judges 6 could show you that seeking a sign is not always for an evil an adultrous people, but that the Lord, knowing our hearts and experiences perfectly, works with us individually to bring about our immortality and eternal life. Seeing as the Lord is no respector of persons, could he not do for this man as he did for Gideon?

[gclayjr]

ZionBuilder,

I would be careful, in guiding my life based upon perceived exceptions to the rule. I think that is one of the things that are used so often here to justify turning their lives against God's, clear and simple truths. On the surface it looks a bit like "seeking a sign", and one can interpretit that way, but I think, given the clarity of God's admonition that is a dangerous road. In the Old Testament Study Guide for Home Seminary Students, they describe this as follows:

In Judges 6:17–24 the Lord showed Gideon a sign to assure him that this call came from God. There is a difference between seeking a sign from God before we will believe and have faith and seeking a confirmation with a sincere heart, real intent, and faith (see Moroni 10:4). The motive for seeking a sign or confirmation from God is important (see D&C 63:7–9). “Some people claim that they would believe in God or His work if they were able to receive a sign. But faith does not come by signs. … Signs are given to those who are faithful and obedient to strengthen them in their faith and to help them carry out the will of God” (Gospel Topics, “Signs”; lds.org/topics). Gideon righteously sought for a sign, or confirmation, having faith.

D&C 63:6-9

And he that seeketh signs shall see signs , but not unto salvation.

8Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;

9But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.

Reading Finrock's complete statement as written, one would not conclude this:

I think we can talk to God as one man talks to another. I think God will reason together with each of us. I think He will listen to your suggestions and has no problems accommodating a person's righteous desires. God isn't a dictator and He respects each person and He respects our agency. He has been known to even fulfill the request of His friends even when He initially counsels against it. From what I know of God, He works with His children where they are at in life. Meaning, He customizes how principles are implemented depending on circumstances, knowledge, and other such criteria.

Given these things, I think there is room to negotiate with God and to establish with Him a method by which you may best know when He is sending messengers or not. I don't think the idea itself is inherently wrong.

However, he has gotten his panties in a twist before when people read what he says rather than what he means (however, one is supposed to figure that out). So maybe does have a point.

Regards,

George Clay

[captainfearnot]

See, that was my first reaction too, that it seems like sign seeking. But then what is Adam doing in the ceremony if not specifically asking for a sign?

The condemnation of sign seeking in the BoM seems to be reserved for those asking for a sign of the existence of God. We are supposed to exercise faith instead of waiting for physical evidence when it comes to things like that. But I don't know that we're supposed to accept on faith that everyone who comes around claiming to speak for God actually is. We're supposed to be skeptical, and wary of false prophets. By their fruits ye shall know them (fruits being a kind of sign). In this case, the authentication code isn't a sign of God's existence, but a sign that God's purported messenger is authentic.

I think what feels wrong to me is the idea that anyone could initiate such an arrangement with God, and specify the terms. Usually we ask for what we need and the answers tend to come in ways we never would have imagined. I think the most I would be comfortable doing is asking that it be made known to me somehow that anyone claiming to be God's messenger to me is authentic. Then again, it wasn't enough for the brother of Jared to ask for light, he had to tell God the manner by which it should be accomplished, so I don't know.

[Finrock]

See, that was my first reaction too, that it seems like sign seeking. But then what is Adam doing in the ceremony if not specifically asking for a sign?

The condemnation of sign seeking in the BoM seems to be reserved for those asking for a sign of the existence of God. We are supposed to exercise faith instead of waiting for physical evidence when it comes to things like that. But I don't know that we're supposed to accept on faith that everyone who comes around claiming to speak for God actually is. We're supposed to be skeptical, and wary of false prophets. By their fruits ye shall know them (fruits being a kind of sign). In this case, the authentication code isn't a sign of God's existence, but a sign that God's purported messenger is authentic.

I think what feels wrong to me is the idea that anyone could initiate such an arrangement with God, and specify the terms. Usually we ask for what we need and the answers tend to come in ways we never would have imagined. I think the most I would be comfortable doing is asking that it be made known to me somehow that anyone claiming to be God's messenger to me is authentic. Then again, it wasn't enough for the brother of Jared to ask for light, he had to tell God the manner by which it should be accomplished, so I don't know.

Here is something to consider. God is familiar. What I mean by that is that He is "family" and He wants to be your friend. We can approach Him as a friend and truly as a Father.

If you were speaking of your earthly father, would you have any issues establishing with him a method by which you can know when he has sent you a message? Assuming of course that your relationship is good with your earthly father. Would you feel it was disrespectful or wrong to have such a discussion? Would you feel like you were seeking a sign from him? Does that concern even make sense considering you clearly don't doubt your dad's existence because you are talking with him and sharing your concerns with him and attempting to establish a method by which to identify his messages to you?

I believe we can approach our Heavenly Father the same way. God is family, He is our Father. He is approachable. He doesn't upbraid us for coming to Him, sharing our concerns, and establishing methods that will work in our life. Clearly we shouldn't dictate something to God or be disrespectful. However, consider further that God gets you. Meaning He understands the human condition and if we are a bit petulant at times, although sincere, He isn't going to snap at us or bite our heads off, figuratively speaking.

I think a lot of this comes down to what type if relationship you have with God and what type of being you imagine Him to be. If you see Him as a loving Father, you'll likely approach Him as such and treat Him as such. If you see Him as something else, you'll likely interact with Him based on the conception of God that you have.

-Finrock

[captainfearnot]

If you were speaking of your earthly father, would you have any issues establishing with him a method by which you can know when he has sent you a message? Assuming of course that your relationship is good with your earthly father. Would you feel it was disrespectful or wrong to have such a discussion? Would you feel like you were seeking a sign from him? Does that concern even make sense considering you clearly don't doubt your dad's existence because you are talking with him and sharing your concerns with him and attempting to establish a method by which to identify his messages to you?

That's something else that occurred to me, how would this be any different from setting up a family password?

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

If you were speaking of your earthly father, would you have any issues establishing with him a method by which you can know when he has sent you a message? Assuming of course that your relationship is good with your earthly father. Would you feel it was disrespectful or wrong to have such a discussion? Would you feel like you were seeking a sign from him? Does that concern even make sense considering you clearly don't doubt your dad's existence because you are talking with him and sharing your concerns with him and attempting to establish a method by which to identify his messages to you?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Establishing a method"

My mother, when she was in college, had an important decision to make. It might have been whether to marry my father. She fasted and prayed and went into the mountains, to get God's response. While she was up there she saw a cloud formation, and prayed to God to send her a sighn, based upon how the formation split to indicate which answer was his desire. After the clouds split. She prayed again based upon another cloud that was splitting, for confirmation, of course it split differently. She repeated this process for awhile, before she realized, she was on the wrong path to figure out God's will, and it would require a more spiritual investigation, based upon how HE wants to communicate his will.

Remember verse 6 in my D&C 63:6-9 quote

And he that seeketh signs shall see signs , but not unto salvation.

I see a warning for those who are talking instead of listening to God.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

If you were speaking of your earthly father, would you have any issues establishing with him a method by which you can know when he has sent you a message? Assuming of course that your relationship is good with your earthly father. Would you feel it was disrespectful or wrong to have such a discussion? Would you feel like you were seeking a sign from him? Does that concern even make sense considering you clearly don't doubt your dad's existence because you are talking with him and sharing your concerns with him and attempting to establish a method by which to identify his messages to you?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Establishing a method"

My mother, when she was in college, had an important decision to make. It might have been whether to marry my father. She fasted and prayed and went into the mountains, to get God's response. While she was up there she saw a cloud formation, and prayed to God to send her a sighn, based upon how the formation split to indicate which answer was his desire. After the clouds split. She prayed again based upon another cloud that was splitting, for confirmation, of course it split differently. She repeated this process for awhile, before she realized, she was on the wrong path to figure out God's will, and it would require a more spiritual investigation, based upon how HE wants to communicate his will.

Remember verse 6 in my D&C 63:6-9 quote

And he that seeketh signs shall see signs , but not unto salvation.

I see a warning for those who are talking instead of listening to God.

Regards,

George Clay

I agree. We shouldn't seek for signs. That is good advice.

-Finrock

[Kingdom of ZION]

Many forget Abraham conversing with the Lord, and asking over and over, just how few righteous persons are need to spare a city. Is this not asking for the Lord to perform by a set test of questions? And again, the Lord deals with man almost always in the same test case... IF you will not hearken, repent, do as commanded, this or that blessing or cursing will follow.

The issue I see most people miss or step over in debates as to whether one may ask for a sign or not, is what is the underline reason for asking! If the point of asking for a Sign is that they are asking for the Lord to witness to them something they were already been commanded, shown, or had revealed unto them, that they might then know of a certainty, that they might believe, this is very acceptable unto G_d!

BUT if one is asking for a Sign that they might merely believe in G_d, even though if they were to be honest with themselves, they know in their hearts that He does exist after the many witnesses that ALL people receive in this life, and as G_d in His wisdom perceives that they have no real intent to believe even after it is made plain unto them, for they ask just from a desire to satisfy their own curiosity, and will not really believe even if they were shown a Sign... this angers G_d greatly!

I have asked for a very specific Sign to be given as a witness as to what the Lord has told me, that it was actually Him and not myself deluding myself. I set when and where this witness should come and that it needed to be as in from a total stranger, as well as the exact words that needed to be spoken. It was fulfilled to the very last detail! NOW, having received my witness, I can never doubt again that it was the Lord whom reveal such unto me! Yes, I have asked addition questions over the years, on different points but I have never rejected the witness or what He has revealed... I dare not, for to do so would come with grave consequences, possibly no forgiveness in this world or the world to come.

Beware what you ask for... but then again, if it is part of your path, there is no avoiding such things!

Shalom

[brianj]

I think that sometimes we are unclear on when signs are appropriate or inappropriate. There are examples in the Book of Mormon and Bible, and many more examples that could be cited from our lives, of people who don't believe as we do who say that if we or God gives them a sign then they will believe. I do believe this is what we are warned against when told that it is wickedness to seek for signs. And if a sign is given to such nonbelievers, they will quickly dismiss that belief. And can you blame them? Do you believe in magic after seeing a rabbit pulled from a hat?

There's a second type of sign seeking. This is what George described, where we have faith but are not putting the necessary effort into learning God's will and expecting things to be given to us. Again, this is not an appropriate sign seeking.

But there are other signs that are appropriate. Would any of us be truly converted to the gospel without signs in our lives? These signs follow effort and faith on our part. Sometimes signs are a necessary part of callings. Earlier this year I heard a fairly new General Authority Seventy describe his first experience going to a stake conference and calling a new stake president. An unmistakable sign was given to him to know whom to call. And, of course, signs are given in prophecy to guide us through life and to remind us that Heavenly Father is in charge. We are taught that we should steadfastly look for the signs of the Second Coming of Christ.

I treasure signs. I look forward to signs. As I typed the two previous sentences an image came into my mind of an act that could be in my future that would be a tremendous sign to myself and those around me. But I look for the signs as fruits of faith, not as reasons to have faith. And I believe this is what we are supposed to do.